grabbing strength

[backbreaker]

How important is grip strength in internal martial arts? Many applications involve grabbing the opponent.( Like grabbing their fingers and hand)

If you have a strong grip can it possibly improve your ability to relax your shoulders and keep them mobile and not tense? Or is alot of tension in the hands bad?

What are the applications of grip strength and grabbing and what are important elements of grabbing the opponent?

[crumble]

Pulling moves are so important in IMA. But strength isn't emphasized as much as fast, adaptable technique. The goal is to be able to quickly shock the opponent with a pull, but not necessarily to keep maintaining a particular grip. When you keep a grip you are susceptable to chinna.

From my experience, the main way to keep a solid but adaptable grip is to emphasize using the last two fingers (ring and pinky). The muscles that control these fingers are contained solely within the forarm, they don't cross over or influence the elbow. So the tension pretty much remains in the forearm. (The same grip is used in Japanese swordfighting for the same reason.)

Hope that helps,

-c

[backbreaker]

Thanks crumble.

[Ironwind]

Strength, doesn't hurt having. Turning the hips also helpful in giving the illusion of strength in the arms.
Strength just can't be a "arm" or "leg" thing it's the full us of the body that defines strength in my book.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

We seldom "grab", more often we hold the thumb fixed and twist the forearm creating a friction lock.. the twisting of the forearm follows the turning of the waist in the general flow of a technique.. it also leaves the elbow much more range to execute follow-up techniques.. We do train "grabbing strength" but for much more diverse purposes.. we toss sand bags (10-15 lbs.) and catch them in a typical Eagle-claw fashion, but this trains a lot more than just gripping strength.. Typically, the applications are too quick to take the time to make a complete "full-hand grasp", too dynamic to limit the range of motion that is confined by full-hand grabs.. we use the two middle fingers and occasionally the pinky, the index finger points the direction of the application and by not constricting it, keeps Qi in the hand..

Another useful technique is to intercept the opponent's wrist (your left hand to their right wrist), place your right hand on your left wrist and while emphasizing "peng" and roundness of the arms, twist the waist and spine counter-clockwise.. smoothly slip your right elbow under their left (now extended) arm and lift their arm as you twist.. this will compromise their foundation, mis-align their spine and generally pull them off balance.. if they successfully resist or sink, you will notice the set-up for a great shoulder strike or Parting the Wild Horses Mane.. Being a one handed grasp, this works well in competitions..

Be well..

[Shaolinlueb]

i dont know much about tai chi, but is there ven a lot of grabbing in it? I thought tai chi was msotly about using the opponents energy against them?

[dwid]

From my experience, the main way to keep a solid but adaptable grip is to emphasize using the last two fingers (ring and pinky). The muscles that control these fingers are contained solely within the forarm, they don't cross over or influence the elbow. So the tension pretty much remains in the forearm. (The same grip is used in Japanese swordfighting for the same reason.)

I'd like to hear some physiological and anatomical evidence for this. The flexors of the interphalangeal joints are all either intrinsic to the hand or contained in the anterior forearm. What muscles in the upper arm flex digits?

I'm just curious as to whether I'd overlooked some important muscles in anatomy.

Otherwise, I'm pretty much in agreement with what's been said so far. Grabbing is a kinetic thing in the IMA. Gripping is more static and probably has more of a place in very specific grappling applications.

[Toby]

No evidence, but just bending your fingers moves "stuff" up in your forearm. Doing it now, I get a different part of my forearm moving for each finger with the most easily recognized areas of movement being on the outside of my forearm just below my elbow. Surely these are muscles moving? No anatomy book handy so I can't check.

[dwid]

That's my point.

To my knowledge, none of these muscles flexes the elbow joint.

[qiphlow]

we don't always get an opportunity to grab per se--
i feel that it's best to be sticky and listen well and when the opponent is in a place where he or she doesn't have any room to move, then one can apply more strength/power to the hold. if you come on too strong at first, you've committed to an action and have left yourself in the postion of no room to move.

[backbreaker]

So perhaps listening skill , neutralizing, and maybe even reversing holds onto the opponent is more important than grip strength then at first contact

[crumble]

Did a quick google image search on "forearm muscles"... Pretty interesting stuff out there.

Some highlights:

This suggests most forearm muscles cross the elbow joint, but the thumb and index finger attach higher up the

http://137.222.110.150/calnet/musculo/image/forearm%20muscles.jpg

similar idea here, but bones not shown...

http://www.paddleball.com/paddles/Accessories/wristbuilder/anatomy1.jpg

http://www.vancouvermassage.ca/images/diagrams/forearm.jpg

Well anyway, hope it helps. Time to get off this **** computer...

-c

[Toby]

Originally posted by dwid
The flexors of the interphalangeal joints are all either intrinsic to the hand or contained in the anterior forearm. What muscles in the upper arm flex digits?I should learn to read :o.

[dwid]

This suggests most forearm muscles cross the elbow joint, but the thumb and index finger attach higher up the

Actually, it suggests that the extensors of the carpal bones (anatomical wrist) go beyond the elbow. The Interphalangeal and Metacarpophalangeal Flexors would all be on the palm side of the hand and forearm and would be the only muscles relevant to grip. It appears on the items you posted that none of these extends past the forearm.

Anyway, this is a very technical argument, and I feel it is taking us away from the spirit of the initial question. So, I apologize if this line of discussion has been disruptive or not helpful.

[qiphlow]

backbreaker:
my own personal feeling is that joint locks and such work much better if the "lockee" is as unaware as possible of the lock (bear with me here...) when playing push hands, for example: if you are circling at 5 mph and suddenly attack at 50 mph, what does this do to your opponent? usually they will get all tense. if you apply the 5mph/50mph rule to attempting a jointlock/hold/etc., your technique may not work because the opponent may go all tense on you and then it's force vs. force--ok for some, as long as your opponent is physically weaker than thou.....
i think it's better to be sticky, listen, and follow the opponent to a place where he more or less locks himself--then you only need a little of your own strength to maintain the lock (and if your lock is good, you won't need a lot of strength!). and...in a metaphysical sense, you are not that person's adversary at that point--you are only assisting them to go where they were going already!
so, in a nutshell, yes--i do think that cultivation of the sticky/following/listening skill(s) is MUCH better than trying to rely on physical strength, since sooner or later, everyone loses some physical strength.

[Ray Pina]

I think the idea of "grabbing" someone -- with the hand -- is rediculous. Anyone with know-how will get right out.

How can your thumb and forefinger be stronger than my shoulder pulling my arm back in? Or actually, turning my arm and pushing toward you attacking your own wrist. If you don't let go it breaks.

I think locking is the way to go, using the forearms and elbows. Hitting is the hands job. Asking it to lock onto a much stronger body part/joint-muscle system is sending him out to die.

[backbreaker]

Ah, yes qiphlow. I have heard of the 5mph to 50 from other people . They called it going from 0 to 100. So you're saying that you nuetralize the opponent giving him nothing to land on or grab, then following and anticipating while thay are unaware, then you combine these with adding power, adding a little bit more and more in different directions until they are screwed.

[backbreaker]

I think mainly you woud grab their hand or fingers, it seems to me that that could better than no grab. As people have mentioned I guess I shouldn't just go up and grab them or they can break my arm with peng.

[Ray Pina]

Any time someone goes to grab your finger, just aim a bit higher and squeez your fist, you grab theirs.

Also, the wrist has mobilty. A finger grab can be countereg by first going with it at the wrist and then going with it at the elbow. Think peach palm ala Ba Gua

[backbreaker]

Cool, E-fist.

[Ray Pina]

My teacher tought it to me ... it's remarkably easy. The only weakness, you have to see it coming.

[dwid]

Still, I think having a vice-like grip has some very obvious advantages in self-defense, maybe not in a ring fight, but normal people have a tendency to freeze up when they feel trapped... some kind of left over animal instinct.

[qiphlow]

backbreaker: yup--something like that. the basic idea i think is to not get their guard up. you have to be quite subtle with your movements, especially if your partner has some skill, too. another advantage to being soft is that it's much easier to change the technique if needed. i also like what dwid said--that "having a vise-like grip has some very obvious advantages"--this also is true. i just prefer the soft and sticky approach because it works better for me (i ain't scwarzzenegger, ya know?).

[dwid]

qiphlow,

I'll be the first to admit that, while I do think grip strength is important for a number of things that I enjoy (weightlifting top among them), deep down I just like the idea of having incredibly strong hands and any justification for continuing to train toward that goal is good enough for me.

:D

[backbreaker]

Yeah, I saw a video of an old shaolin master who did standing on one finger with his feet up in the air lightly resting on the wall meditation. He had strong finger strikes.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

The grip doesn't have to be that strong.. intercept your oponents punch from the outside, pushing their arm across your centerline and grabbing the wrist with the thumb on the bottom.. as you twist your waist toward the direction you pushed their arm slip your elbow under their's, now you have the wrist/arm extended, wrist controlled, elbow controlled with upward pressure (hyper-extending the elbow).. in this scenario the grip is used to direct the incoming energy for your advantage, not relying on crushing strength.. You can even go over the top of their elbow with yours, then do a Chen-style reverse shoulder/elbow roll which applys Qinna and rending pressure to their shoulder (usually causing them to bow forward into a potential knee to the face)..

We seldom use gripping as a full-force application, primarily we use it to lead into a Qinna application.. even in grasping sparrow's tail the grip used to rotate the opponents upper arm is moderate, with the thumb (full-length) applying moderate pressure on the inside of the upper arm about 1" above the elbow point and the palm cradling the elbow and with the fingers pulling the elbow toward the inside.. if you control the wrist with your left hand (depending on the side which is attacking) the opponent will yield outward and down with only moderate strength.. it has something to do with the pressure point on the upper arm where the thumb is pressing..

Just another perspective.. Be well...

[Merryprankster]

How can your thumb and forefinger be stronger than my shoulder pulling my arm back in? Or actually, turning my arm and pushing toward you attacking your own wrist. If you don't let go it breaks.

No offense, but I've met more than one or two freaks in my years of wrestling that have grip strength that makes it VERY difficult to perform standard wrist grab escapes on them. You really can't underestimate grip strength because it's usually the weakest link in the chain. If your grip breaks, then the rest of what you're doing frequently becomes kind of useless and may even open you up. This obviously depends, but hey...

Do you guys use "hooks?" Most wrestling control grips from standing aren't "grabbing"--you make your whole hand like a meathook and use that instead to get your moves.

Just curious.

[backbreaker]

I use hooks in Taiji applications. They often seem to often invole moves that use both hands. One hand would hook the opponent and pull backward, and at the same time the palm of the other arm would push forward( or actually sideways or many directions) on a point on the opponent. From there elbow strikes are added and also use the elbow to put the structure on top of, and down on the opponent. The advantage is decreased risk of injury to the thumbs especially if intercepting the opponent right? Also many moves use grabiing the wrist or hand and hooking and pulling down the opponents elbow.

But also there are many techniques which get a hold of the opponent and grab the fingers or hands. And it does seem to me there are many things that can happen from there, but if someone is crushing your knuckles and bones together who is especially strong it would be very difficult to break out or escape and get your structure back to return to and reattack your opponent, but i don't know. Often trying to escape a grip can end up with you in a qinna lock. But antways I myself feel that I can pick things up without stiffening or straining my shoulders as much if I have a strong grip and hold

Many application though do not use grabbing and use pressing or twisting lightly a few inches on directions where it is hard for the opponent to resist his joints being slighty collapsed inwards breaking his structure, and from there adding power from the body like emptying to one side and adding structure to another side in a smooth fashion while maintaining central eguilibrium between the legs but with all the joints loose and responsive but also stable and not being over extended beyond the structure. I think it's possible though if you try to pull them into you with your arm you could actually be pulled in and thrown out due to structure and all parts moving together. And pushing away will only bring qinna twisting holds into play like locking the elbow in an upwards direction adding power, or putting structure down on the opponent's elbow and then adding empty and full body power and opening and closing.

[backbreaker]

Also aren't there different grips for different weapons? Like for sword, you hold the sword a bit diagonally in your grip. It might not be grip stenght but the wrist flexibility? But then it seems to me, when issueing power into the sword grip strenth may come into play, as well as full body strength to make the sword vibrate and shake and bend in the center and out the tip.

[backbreaker]

From what I can figure out, grabbing has to do alot with twisting.

[md1]

anyone looking for a vise like grip? go find a job as a mason laborer or with a drywall crew. you'll have no problem building a grip to go along with your kung fu and you'll get paid for it.

[Merryprankster]

anyone looking for a vise like grip? go find a job as a mason laborer or with a drywall crew. you'll have no problem building a grip to go along with your kung fu and you'll get paid for it.

TRUTH!

Machinists too...

[scotty1]

Whenever you need to manipulate an opponents limb, yeah you use any momentum or force that they've brought along but if you're doing something whereby you basically close your fingers around an elbow, joint, whatever, you are utilising your grip and as such if your grip is not strong what's to stop your opponent breaking it?

You find your opponent committed with an outstretched hand, you grab, twist and pull. The pull's more effective because you've used your hips and dropped your weight, but if you can't maintain your grip on the limb what's to stop your opponent just pulling his arm out?

Grip strength is just one important factor in making the above work.

I don't want to rely on grip strength but its certainly a useful thing to have.

I'd be surprised if anyone practicing any fighting system didn't think grip strength was important.

[Liokault]

I'd be surprised if anyone practicing any fighting system didn't think grip strength was important.

LOL I dont think that grip strength is that important, at least for me.

I have always had very small hands (I have only ever met 1 bloke with hands as small as mine and never met a male adult with smaller) so my grip has always relatively weak, but this has never caused me any problems, may be I have just learnt to get around it?

Anyway in TTC (whatever Scotty says :D ) we tend to use the hand to cover rather than grab. I think that this is a larg part of why TTC has dont so well in SS for me as you tend to natraly cover with the gloves in a clinch as you can not grab.

[scotty1]

Liokault I'm not saying you need to grab all the time. But as an example, say you're doing four directions and from first push your partner does you grip the extended arm (even if only momentarily), twist and pull. You're gripping, and using your grip strength.

We do plenty of apps. where the attacking arm is twisted, maybe into a lock. How can you twist something if you're not gripping it?

One of the reasons for training spear is grip strength.

I'm not saying that the need for a huge grip can't be lessened by good positioning and timing, but things f**k up, slip etc. and it can't hurt to have a strong grip.

[Liokault]

Originally posted by scotty1


We do plenty off apps. where the attacking arm is twisted. How can you twist something if you're not gripping it?

There is more than one way of twisting an arm (is that a proverb?), but if you are going the grabbing and twisting route then thats fine, unless your fighting against the guys strength.....when that happens its time to do somthing else.

Also in the example that you gave Scotty1


But as an example, say you're doing four directions and from first push your partner does you grip the extended arm (even if only momentarily), twist and pull


This is ment to be adding to your attack (as you push your opponent , he carrys on your push by pulling you and thereby over balances you) not fighting for grip and torque.


When I hear grip strength I think of grabbing a coat/lappel or collor to do a throw, not grabbing an arm at the wrist and twisting it.




P.S hows the Nei kung going Scotty? Ready to be jumped on yet?

[scotty1]

" if you are going the grabbing and twisting route then thats fine"

that's what I'm talking about. Yeah if the guy starts fighting it and you can't easily get it onthen its time to move on, but wouldn't you have a greater chance of your grab and twist being successful if you have got some strength in your wrist and hand for the grab?

"This is ment to be adding to your attack (as you push your opponent , he carrys on your push by pulling you and thereby over balances you) not fighting for grip and torque."

Not fighting it, but as the push comes through and you continue it you twist the arm, a stronger harder grip will enable a more effective twist.

"When I hear grip strength I think of grabbing a coat/lappel or collor to do a throw, not grabbing an arm at the wrist and twisting it."

Grabbing and twisting a joint is what I think of when I hear grip strength, but since you mention it, surely (in addition to using the opponents force and being in the best position), being able to maintain a grip is important in some throws?

I'm not advocating using a strong grip to force a technique, just to help in its execution.

The nei kung is going cool. I've only been doing it since jan 5th I think so not ready for stomach jumping yet, lol.

[Liokault]

Scotty1


Grabbing and twisting a joint is what I think of when I hear grip strength, but since you mention it, surely (in addition to using the opponents force and being in the best position), being able to maintain a grip is important in some throws?


I think the judo guys make a big thing of grip strength with there throws, especialy as they use Gi's.


When I first started wrestling in the Tai Chi class we had to do it top less......that stopped when a beginner told my teacher we looked like a ghay porn vid.

[scotty1]

lol, I've often thought when doing Fu Yang that this training would be an undercover gay man's dream.

A lil' grab here, a lil' twist there...

[Liokault]

Originally posted by scotty1
lol, I've often thought when doing Fu Yang that this training would be an undercover gay man's dream.

A lil' grab here, a lil' twist there...



I really don't know what you mean!

I do find Fu Yang with a young lady qutie stimulating though.....that was before I was banned from working with femails.

[Merryprankster]

I think the judo guys make a big thing of grip strength with there throws, especialy as they use Gi's.

They do, but they make a bigger thing of dominant grips. Gripfighting is key. Grip strength is necessary, but not EXTRAORDINARY grip strength, in any way. You can do Judo just fine on the grip you get just doing Judo.

Liokault is right, of course, an excellent grip is not required to be a successful wrestler of any sort, although most of them almost always also develop what the average population would consider excellent grips from years of training - it just happens.

It's "sauce." It's extra. It's the "awfully nice to have." Kind of like one shot KO power in one or both of your hands. It's not necessary, but it sure can be useful. It increases your options and can really give you good control over your opponent. One of my training partners has such a good grip that he can literally choke you from nearly any position on the ground. In no-gi work, you have to work your ass off to get rid of his wrist control (the normal grip breaks don't work easily) or, if he's doing a leg/ankle pick, he can hang on a little longer as he drives and you defend, which means more chance of you going down instead of getting out. Certainly useful - like Liokault said, just not NEEDED.

[backbreaker]

A grip can on the wrist can be useful on your back to get a triangle choke right? For grappling anyways, but this also used in taiji in standing up clinching as a way to change from to side to side from shoulder to shoulder like shrimping almost on the ground.

[scotty1]

"When I first started wrestling in the Tai Chi class we had to do it top less......that stopped when a beginner told my teacher we looked like a ghay porn vid."

Should've left the nipple clamps at home.

"most of them almost always also develop what the average population would consider excellent grips from years of training - it just happens."

Exactly, a strong grip is developed through *use*.

Lio I bet your grip is stronger than you think it is.

[Liokault]

Scotty1



Lio I bet your grip is stronger than you think it is.


Nope. I remember doing a test once (grip pressure test), and I wouldn't qualify to be a femail fire fighter or somthing like that .

[Liokault]

Just what is shrimping?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Grip is important.. not just in Taiji, but in general day-to-day life.. it is that for which our thumbs were designed.. Strong grips are an advantage, take it or leave it.. Qinna is greatly enhanced by a sturdy grip.. but, it's not important till you need it and, personally, i'm not giong to wait till i need it to discover i don't have it... kind of a common-sense sort of thing..

Sword/weapon training builds good griping power, too..

Be well...

[scotty1]

Bob has gripped the correct so strongly it's passed out.

[Liokault]

Originally posted by TaiChiBob
Greetings..

but, it's not important till you need it and, personally, i'm not giong to wait till i need it to discover i don't have it... kind of a common-sense sort of thing..



Be well...


But this is true of every thing. How many things that are not part of your "core" are you going to put time into?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

We will each probably differ in our definition of "core".. i will dedicate time to that which benefits my goals and training.. I do not spend an inordinate amount of time training my gripping strength, but.. whenever i am using a technique or training and i sense the grip's usefulness i pay attention and study its physics, its relation to energy systems and, often repeat the technique with emphasis on the grip to assure its usefulness when it's needed..

I enjoy exploring new roads but, it's not until i have familiarity (training) with those roads that i can travel them with gusto and confidence.. so it is with gripping, i enjoy the advantage.. so i pay attention and attend to the skill and strength appropriately.. it's really a matter of preference, like all things..

Be well...

[scotty1]

Not to hijack.. but how's the leg Liokault?

[Liokault]

Well I have been walking more or less normaly for the last 2 weeks.....well, normal until I need to change direction! I still can not quite straighten it and it still will not tolerate any form of rotation.

Thanks for asking.

The idea with not grabbing in TCC is that if I grab your arm, it fixes my arm more or less in position and enables you to pull me (through my grabbing hand) as much as it lets me mupp you.

If I just cover your arm with a relaxed hand then you can not pull me unless I wish to follow and the hand is free to strike you (in our TCC we tend to grapple for a position (standing) from which to strike rather than to grapple just for a throw lock etc).

[backbreaker]

This seems to make snese. Also if they break or slip out of the grip you might be left standing there doing nothing for a second wide open, in addition to someone countering a grab maybe.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

The grab or grasp, properly executed, is an integral part of Taiji.. ie: Tsai (Cai/pluck).. executed in conjunction with the opponent's energy direction it is a formidable application.. it unbalances the opponent, set-up either Qinna or a strike to the mid-section.. if the opponent is recovering from an off-balance position, their abdominals are correcting for balance and not negotiating a strike..


(in our TCC we tend to grapple for a position (standing) from which to strike rather than to grapple just for a throw lock etc).

Hmmm... "just" for a throw lock etc.. If i can avoid striking and kicking with a throw or lock everybody wins.. when the striking and kicking starts there's usually doctors' bills and/or a lawsuit hidden there somewhere.. In Taiji (not specifically "our" Taiji) it is considered wise to use only the force necessary to control a situation.. my "personal" interpretation of this wisdom leads me to use Qinna (appropriately backed by a sound grip) as the first response in an attempt to neutralize aggression.. striking is one of the last options, but.. sadly, the one that most people require to understand the futility of aggression..

Anyhow, Be well.. its just differing perspectives..

[Liokault]

Originally posted by TaiChiBob
Greetings..




Hmmm... "just" for a throw lock etc.. If i can avoid striking and kicking with a throw or lock everybody wins.. when the striking and kicking starts there's usually doctors' bills and/or a lawsuit hidden there somewhere.. In Taiji (not specifically "our" Taiji) it is considered wise to use only the force necessary to control a situation.. my "personal" interpretation of this wisdom leads me to use Qinna (appropriately backed by a sound grip) as the first response in an attempt to neutralize aggression.. striking is one of the last options, but.. sadly, the one that most people require to understand the futility of aggression..




The above is a differant thread guy. Any I use the term "our TCC" to indicate that I am not lumping all TCC together and accept that differant styles do things in a differant way.

[md1]

not only do i believe grip stength is useful, i believe it's needed!
let's be serious... i think it's time to step out of class and see what's happening on the streets or in the clubs. it's not all about hitting or kicking, if you have to subdue someone in a club u better not have the grip of a 10 year old. you can do all the soft tai chi you want but u better have some yang to go along with that yin.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I apologize if the quote you referenced appears to be a "different thread".. it was intended to illustrate the usefulness of a well trained grip.. Yet, it remains that Liu, Cai and Qinna are dependent on a reasonably solid grip, that Taiji forms balance strikes and gripping applications.. and, that which one favors is simply that which one favors, not a pronouncement of right/wrong.. That you might prefer strikes and i might prefer Qinna is appropriate, we are different people.. Taiji honors the diversity of preference with numerous variations of application.. what works for the individual is what i would expect them to favor.. it generally illustrates their approach to other aspects of their life..

Another generally accepted principle of Taiji is the "push/pull" concept.. and i tend to believe that "pulling" is enhanced by a solid grip.. that has been my experience..

Be well..

[Liokault]

Originally posted by crumble
Did a quick google image search on "forearm muscles"... Pretty interesting stuff out there.

Some highlights:

This suggests most forearm muscles cross the elbow joint, but the thumb and index finger attach higher up the




-c



Sorry to jump back in the thread so far.

When I was an apprentice, we did the standard induction week with all the saftey videos etc....one picture was of a guys finger that was ripped off after a laith got caught on his ring. It was ripped off from the main knuckle as it joins the hand and had over a foot of muscle/ligament still attatched to it.

[scotty1]

Nice.

*hijack*

So what impact has your injury had to your training, and for how long?

*stop hijack*

[Liokault]

Well it didn't so much have an impact on my training as stop me training lol.

Since it happend it has not beed stable enough for me to be able to do anything other than walk with a limp in a straight line slowely......and I have only been able to do that for the last few weeks.

The other thing is that when I first saw the doctor his big worry was that as all the ligaments that support one side of the knee were either damaged or destroyed (they were a bit vauge) any thing could further damage the knee.

However I have just seen the doctor (bout an hour ago) and it looks that like the injury is not as bad as it first looked. The ligament that conects the thigh to the shin across the inside of the knee is badly damages, but my knee is much more stable than the damage suggests that it should be (may be because years of stance work has built up the supporting muscles, but I didn't want to go into that with the doctor) and the cruciate is not as badly damaged as it could be.

The estimate is that with 3 months physio it will be morew or less normal and no surgery is required.

Also I have been reading up on sportsmen with cruciate injurys and lots of rugby players have no cruciates (from what I can tell .....Delalio(sp) for one) and seem to do ok just by buildimg supporting muscle.

So I think 3 months physio then fighting again in 6 months.


Thank you for asking.

[scotty1]

"Delalio(sp) for one) and seem to do ok just by buildimg supporting muscle."

Allegedly its the old devil's dandruff that keeps him going. :)

Glad to hear it'll be OK. Would've been a shame for you to have been crippled for life.:D

[Liokault]

[i]

Glad to hear it'll be OK. Would've been a shame for you to have been crippled for life.:D [/B]



Well even if I was crippled for life, I could still kick youe arse.....I just wouldnt look as cool doing it as I normaly would......and I would probably fall over right after the kicking part:D

[scotty1]

haha :)

I wish there was a cheeky smile with two fingers flippin the bird smilie.

When you're kicking my arse though don't forget I know exactly where to fall to **** you up for good! :D

[Liokault]

Well that could be one kicked arse to many :D but a arse kicked is a kicked arse......and thats what counts.


In the last 2 classes I have been to we have had 3 broken bones plus my busted knee......hows your class going Scotty1?

[scotty1]

Not like that lol :)

We don't have the same sort of class as you. Until I arrived nobody wanted to do the sanshou type training, and its only been me and my teacher doing it until recently.

Its picking up now a couple more people want to do it, but I had to ask for it originally, as like I say nobody else did that. My teacher loves it, but the people in the classes weren't really interested.

So not really much opportunity for injuries really. With only my teacher and I sparring really we've been taking it easy while I find my feet.

Its cool just doing it with him at the moment cos its like a private lesson or something and I don't know what I'm doing yet, but as soon as I'm more confident I'm obviously going to need more people to train with. So I'm going to have to convince some of my classmates to start rolls etc. so I can spar with them.

All in good time.

[Liokault]

By god I hate doing rolls.

To make them harder we are no longer alowed to roll onto our knees before we turn......has to go straight onto the feet. This makes it harder by far. How many can you do a min now?

Also I just heard last week that Dan's comp (in Oxford every year) will have the pushing hands format as more or less straight stand up grappling this year, so sweeps and throws will all be alowed. Are we going to see you there?

[scotty1]

Rolls are hE1l.... I can do about 75 in two mins though. drops off by the third set! I thought I was going to be sick the first time.

Is this the comp in March or April? We're coming, but there's only one of our guys competing. He's not really been training very much recently but he wants to give it a go. I;m looking forard to seeing the others.

So it's not just fixed/moving/restricted then?

Hang on, it is moving isn;t it?

I'm not competing. Don't see the point, I'm not at the level where I could do anything but embarass myself, unless there any other weak-ass newbies competing. Again, all in good time...

You'll be there then? I'm off - have a good weekend all.

[md1]

don't u guy's have email

[scotty1]

Excuse me, this is a private conversation.

[md1]

hey scott1 hahahahahahaha...i like that

[scotty1]

:)