The Ultimate Okinawan Martial Arts Thread [Archive]

Kempo Guy

01-30-2004, 10:08 AM

From my experience, many (if not most) Karate dojo have rigid discipline to an almost militaristic degree. I believe this was due to several factors, including but not limited to the following:

- the inclusion of "tode" as part of the physical education curriculum in schools
- the development of modern Karate at the height of Japanese imperialistic ideals oppressing anything foreign (and yes, the Ryukyuan culture was foreign to the Japanese)
- the change from "jutsu" to a "do", i.e. development of self rather than development of skills in fighting.

As you know, Okinawan Islands and its various arts were heavily influenced by the Chinese. When the the Chinese arts (Kenfat / Chuan Fa) were transplanted to the Ryukyu archipelago the Chinese influence were much stronger than that of the Japanese... Having said that, the Japanese attitude toward training (as well as the introduction of dogi etc) were introduced after the Meiji restoration when the attitude of "Yamato damashii" (Japanese spirit) was at its peak.

Just some thoughts to resurrect this thread...

Any comments?
KG

Vash

01-30-2004, 04:34 PM

Originally posted by Kempo Guy
From my experience, many (if not most) Karate dojo have rigid discipline to an almost militaristic degree. I believe this was due to several factors, including but not limited to the following:

- the inclusion of "tode" as part of the physical education curriculum in schools

I can see that.

- the development of modern Karate at the height of Japanese imperialistic ideals oppressing anything foreign (and yes, the Ryukyuan culture was foreign to the Japanese)

This sounds most probable.

- the change from "jutsu" to a "do", i.e. development of self rather than development of skills in fighting.

Again, yeah. The correct has thusly been smacked about for the third time.

As you know, Okinawan Islands and its various arts were heavily influenced by the Chinese. When the the Chinese arts (Kenfat / Chuan Fa) were transplanted to the Ryukyu archipelago the Chinese influence were much stronger than that of the Japanese... Having said that, the Japanese attitude toward training (as well as the introduction of dogi etc) were introduced after the Meiji restoration when the attitude of "Yamato damashii" (Japanese spirit) was at its peak.

Encapsulates everything you said earlier.

The rough assimilation of this Okinawan art into Japanese society (well, as much as it was) is very interesting. It also tells a good bit about the how and the why in regards to technical changes of karate.

Here's something that kind of runs into: how did the Japanization of Karate on Japan's mainland affect the Okinawan's performance/dessimination of the art?

Vash

01-30-2004, 04:39 PM

Here's another thought.

Where/when did the less-than-likely stories of karate's evolution come from? By these, I mean stories such as the practicing of Karate at night, away from the prying eyes of the Japanese, the development of karate by the farmers, and the killing of fully-aromored Japanese soldiers with a single reverse punch? :eek:

Did they come from Okinawan teachers telling tall tales to their foreign students? Were they the fruits of well-meaning, but misinformed, students? or was it just another example of the stretching of oral history for the ears of a new generation?

rogue

01-30-2004, 07:40 PM

Were any Okinawan or Japanese karate master ever farmers?:confused:

The regimented training, also known as lots of students punching air, is a Western military transplant. Sadly one that is now ingrained into karate.

Vash

01-30-2004, 07:49 PM

Okinawan Masters who were farmers . . .

*coughTatsuoShimabukucough*

Granted, that was early in his life, but still . . . ;)

Yeah, my class has a lot of air punching. Thankfully, we have even more partner work. Partner work is what we base our curriculum around.

I've got a bunch of suggestions for my instructor once I get to working out again. Things like total application of kata footwork and technique to sparring. Hopefully, he'll like the stuff.

rogue

01-31-2004, 09:55 AM

Farmers while they were masters smart ass.:) It'd be interesting to see what economic status most masters came from. I believe Shimabuku father owned his farm and also a butcher shop. So was he part of the Okinawan middle class? Shimabuku also owned a small concrete manufacturing firm. So besides farming he was a business man. Just wondering as how much effect economics had on allowing some the time and training to master their arts.

Air punching is OK to check form, but I've noticed in schools that over do it how the punch looks is the goal rather than checking the body mechanics.

Some more info on Shimabuku (http://www.isshin1.com/new_page_13.htm)

Vash

01-31-2004, 03:09 PM

That's an excellent article.

rogue

01-31-2004, 07:11 PM

That guy is pretty interesting in the Isshinryu world. I like that sanchin testing picture he included.

From Rob Redmonds Site (http://www.24fightingchickens.com/mu/adventure/04_adventure.html)

What makes things worse for this legend is that the Okinawan men who passed karate down to us were mostly of the noble classes, not peasant farmers. Look at Azato, Itosu, Matsumura, and Sakugawa. All four of these men held high positions in the Okinawan government and were in the Ofu (Okinawan nobility). If men with swords were also the karate men, it sort of shoots a big hole in the theory that peasants used karate to fend off men with swords.

Vash

01-31-2004, 09:09 PM

Love that guy. It's always cool when someone actually holds my viewpoints, but can explain them in a logical and sensical way.

Plus, the picture at the top of that article has Funakoshi sittin' pretty at about 3 feet tall.

Vash

02-02-2004, 09:15 PM

ttt

Vash

02-06-2004, 12:22 PM

Analysis of the Okinawan Bubishi (http://www.geocities.com/alaumirm/s_pagina9.htm)

48 Figures of the Okinawan Bubishi (http://www.geocities.com/alaumirm/s_pagina10.htm)

Two very interesting reads. I haven't the translation which Mr. Camara uses, but I have read it, and have photocopies of the vital point illustrations. Once you get past Camara's sometimes broken English (being he's Brazilian) the article is very interesting.

Heck, here's a general link to that site (http://www.geocities.com/alaumirm/hakutsuru_menu.htm) .

More to come.

manofkent

02-12-2004, 03:21 AM

Now take it easy, i dont want to insult anyone here. but i did Wado Ryu for 10yrs, and receved my black belt at asst sensi.

Then i started looking at sothern chinese martial arts and my skill and disipline grew ten fold in a matter of months. to look back on karate it all seem so basic and external.

what do you guys think?

Vash

02-12-2004, 08:01 AM

Well, sounds like it just wasn't your style. Or, could've been a bad instructor.

As for the external issue . . . you say that like it's a bad thing.

In any event, Wadoryu is a Japanese martial art, not Okinawan, and as such is only going to have a passing resemblence to Okinawan karate (well, that and the Jujutsu influence).

Shaolindynasty

02-27-2004, 12:53 PM

The oppisite is true for me. I started studing Shoeri Ryu about a month ago and have learned that karate is not all about stiffness and screaming. I really enjoy it. I wish I could add more to the conversation but I don't know allot about okinawan karate since I am a newbie:(

Vash

02-28-2004, 10:21 PM

http://www.goju-ryu.info/

http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/

Of course, these are also available in the Great Links thread, but I felt that it would be good to have a handy-dandy reference point before I started another discussion on the Bubishi.

Peace.

'MegaPoint

03-03-2004, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by manofkent
Now take it easy, i dont want to insult anyone here. but i did Wado Ryu for 10yrs, and receved my black belt at asst sensi.

Then i started looking at sothern chinese martial arts and my skill and disipline grew ten fold in a matter of months. to look back on karate it all seem so basic and external.

what do you guys think?

That's because the Chuan Shu you wound up doing was more like real Okinawan Karate. Are people joking with this Japanese Karate BS? I mean Wado Ryu, a style from a guy who didn't like the diluted stuff he was taught from Funakoshi so he decided to mix in JJJ to patch up the holes left from the omission of tuite in Funakoshi's Shotokan?

If you would have done a real style of karate like Isshin, Uechi, Goju or Shorin then you would still be doing it. Trust me. If you decided to switch to a Chinese art, especially a Southern Style you would have seen so many similarities that you wouldn't have switched completely.

Don't compare Wado, Japanese Goju/$hito/Shorinji Ryu, Kyokushinkai or Shotokan to good Okinawan Karate. It's like comparing a Fannie Mae home to a 10 million dollar mansion in Beverly Hills.

All styles of karate were NOT created equal.

'MegaPoint

03-03-2004, 04:56 PM

It seems that Tatsuo felt he had mastered the techniques of both Shorin and Goju. His kata list looks like an abbreviated Shotokan or Sh ito Ryu forms curriculum. How can you love simple Sanchin, which is bad for your health, yet diss the simple Pinan which is good for teaching fundamentals? How can you learn the advanced lessons of Gojushiho (or Shorin Ryu) if it is not part of your kata list? How can you claim that what you teach is an amalgam of the best signature techniques of both Goju and Shorin, yet omit their most important advanced forms? WTF is Sunsu? How long did he live? You gotta love that hard Ibuki Sanchin!

You either do one or the other IMO. Goju and Shorin are alike but different in approach and methodology. Both take a lifetime to master, so why purport that the style you do is the best of both worlds? It just can't be. They are both complete systems, not quick fix styles. Most Isshin stylist I've known also seem to emulate this journeyman philosophy. They understand what they had been missing when they enter a good Uechi, Goju or Shorin dojo.

Gojushiho is a very good form. Next to Kusanku, my favorite. Many lessons on body change and advancing defensive offense are in it. It's about hitting on the move and beating your opponent to the punch. There are ground techs, throws and dirty tricks inherent in it. It's advanced street fighting. Goju forms such as Kururunfa and even mid-level forms such as Shisochin, contain may tuite lessons, facts that an Isshin stylist would never know if they didn't train for years in those forms. Also, why would he choose Wansu, a minor Tomari form with very few novel techs, yet overlook Patsai Sho/Dai and Rohai?

I think as far as the Shimabukuru family was concerned, he was a mid-level practitioner who never really progressed. He does neither NahaTe nor ShuriTe. Tuite is not complicated and it entails more than grabbing the throat or ripping flesh. Why would Advincula teach combat Judo if he understood true tuite? The answer is he doesn't, and never has.

It's a good article. I understand why many of my Isshin students are surprised when they learn the Shorin I've been taught. They were introduced to Okinawan karate, but they were never able to explain why something was the way it was or never had it explained to them. Maybe because of the abbreviated kata and curriculum that is part of Isshin they just weren't armed with the complete knowledge.

The kata they do is very simple compared to the original forms. Simple not in application, but in that many techs were deleted or were never known.

Vash

03-03-2004, 05:28 PM

Dang good posts, 'Mega Point. Good to see you back on the boards.

Oh, about Sanchin, here's (http://www.olemiss.edu/orgs/karate/sanchin.html) and article about a testing of Isshinryu's Sanchin in regards to health benefits/detriments. What are your thoughts on it?

Also, interesting points about Shimabuku/Isshinryu. In regards to the abbreviated list of forms which are practiced, isn't that more because he didn't learn all of the forms of the systems? From what I've heard and read, he included all of the forms that he learned. BUT, there's evidence of other kata in Sunsu.

Would it be fair to say that Isshinryu isn't so much the best of both styles, but Shimabuku's understanding of the lessons he'd received?

Again, very interesting points. Gonna hafta do MORE research on karate now. Dang. And I was just getting into the whole drunken boxing thing.

Vash

03-06-2004, 02:23 PM

Okay, let me preface this by saying that this isn't the best example I've ever seen of good Uechiryu Karate. It doesn't suck, for the most part. At leaswt they go at it full contact w/no pads. But the sets they do, not up to par, IMNSHO.

Videos of Uechiryu Karate (http://web.xpres.net/~gmattson/video/u_tech.html)

'MegaPoint

03-08-2004, 08:53 PM

Yeah, been training and doing school stuff. Don't get me wrong. I love Isshin ryu, and totally dig the idea of mixing Goju and Shorin. I just know from Shorin experience that kata such as Gojushiho teach many adavnced principles.

Every Isshin Ryu guy (or girl) I've known was awesome and very well mannered. I have the utmost respect for this ryuha. I am by no means of Shinshi Shimabuku's caliber and probably never will be. I agree with your assertion that he did understand other forms and decided to maybe detail their lessons in other ways, maybe by creating Sunsu.

Hard Sanchin is good. Hard, forced breathing/exhalation (Ibuki Breathing) is not. I will peep that site and see what it has to say. Does your Isshin school practice Sanchin as does a typical Goju dojo? I need to research and learn more myself.

Thanks for the compliments and keep the good Okinawan karate posts coming.

Good lookin' out...

Vash

03-08-2004, 09:50 PM

Originally posted by 'MegaPoint
Yeah, been training and doing school stuff. Don't get me wrong. I love Isshin ryu, and totally dig the idea of mixing Goju and Shorin. I just know from Shorin experience that kata such as Gojushiho teach many adavnced principles.

Every Isshin Ryu guy (or girl) I've known was awesome and very well mannered. I have the utmost respect for this ryuha. I am by no means of Shinshi Shimabuku's caliber and probably never will be. I agree with your assertion that he did understand other forms and decided to maybe detail their lessons in other ways, maybe by creating Sunsu.

Hard Sanchin is good. Hard, forced breathing/exhalation (Ibuki Breathing) is not. I will peep that site and see what it has to say. Does your Isshin school practice Sanchin as does a typical Goju dojo? I need to research and learn more myself.

Thanks for the compliments and keep the good Okinawan karate posts coming.

Good lookin' out...

In all honesty, the only time I've seen Gojuryu performing Sanchin was at the Wonder Okinawa (http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/) site. I've had the great pleasure of working out with an Okinawan Goju dojo near our own. In fact, I got to sit in on watching one of my sensei's best friends get his fourth degree in that system, and watched the final phase of a brown belt's shodan testing. Unfortunately, Sanchin was not practiced in either instance.

In regards to Hard Sanchin, sans Ibuki breathing, could you illustrate how this is practiced? What I'm imagining is relaxed, deep breathing, not forced, combined with muscular tension which would not force the breath. If it's not obvious, I've had little experience with this set outside of my school . . . especially as relates to applications.

Here's an article (http://pages.xtn.net/~patrickm/gojushih.htm) relating the possibility of Gojushiho's practice within Shimabuku's earlier Isshinryu. I somewhat doubt the story, though, as it gives the '54 inception date, as opposed to the '56. Plus, there's the second-hand nature of the narration . . .

I'd rather like to taste Bassai Sho, and perhaps Gojushiho. And really, I'm gunning to work some Uechiryu folks, and really anyone who is a decent practitioner of a Fukien based style. Add to that my growing fixation with drunken boxing, I've got a bit of studying to do. Thank God I'm still young. Now, just to heal and get back to training.

It's good to have some OMA talk, especially with peeps who really know what the deal is.

Peace.

Vash

03-09-2004, 04:49 PM

Here. (http://www.geocities.com/alaumirm/s_pagina5.htm) Also goes into discussion of Hakutsuru ( :eek: ).

I'm rather fond of the Sanchin set, I just don't do the heavy-breathing thing. I breath deep, but don't force it. I have a decent bit of muscular tension. I personally feel that it has many martially applicable concepts, I'm just rather ill-informed about the physiological effects, and I keep getting contradictory information in regards to it.

Whipping power in strikes is also mentioned. Glad to see I'm not alone on that idea.

Vash

03-09-2004, 04:53 PM

Here's Fernando's full site. (http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Bleachers/6758/hakutsuru_menu.htm)

He's got a lot of good stuff. Still going through it all.

Vash

03-11-2004, 09:38 AM

Check Out This Gojuryu Personal Page. (http://uk.geocities.com/sanzinsoo/index.html)

Interesting stuff.

Vash

03-16-2004, 05:12 PM

Originally posted by 'MegaPoint
Hard Sanchin is good. Hard, forced breathing/exhalation (Ibuki Breathing) is not. I will peep that site and see what it has to say. Does your Isshin school practice Sanchin as does a typical Goju dojo? I need to research and learn more myself.

Just trying to keep this question alive.

Could you describe the differences between Ibuki Sanchin and "hard" Sanchin? I'm rather fond of the body mechanics lessons inherent in this set, and would like to see it from every possible, trainable angle.

Peace.

Vash

03-18-2004, 03:11 PM

A good article on Sanchin safety. (http://uechi-ryu.com/oldsite/breathng.htm)

Vash

03-18-2004, 04:13 PM

Regarding Sanchin, too. (http://www.student.virginia.edu/~uechi/breathing.html)

Vash

03-19-2004, 02:50 PM

a Joe Swift thing. (http://page.freett.com/dojo/GJListArticles.htm)

the part pertaining to Sanchin:

<< the performance of Sanchin kata, the very heart of Goju Ryu. The Sanchin kata of Higashionna was performed with open hands, and a much sharper, faster breathing pattern. It is somewhat similar to the Sanchin of Uechi Ryu.>>>

How do we know that Higaonna's sanchin was like that? People like Kyoda Juhatsu (Miyagi's senior) also taught it with closed fists. Through years of research in Fujian, Tokashiki Iken (Gohaku-kai) came to the conclusion that the Happoren form was the basis for the Sanchin that Higaonna later refined into his Okinawan style. The use of the open hands in Happoren is very reminiscent of Tensho, and MAY have been a source of inspiration for Miyagi (and Mabuni). Maybe Miyagi learned it from Higaonna or maybe from Go Kenki. Yes, I know that Miyagi is said to have formed Tensho from the Rokkishu found in the Bubishi, but again, research in Fujian (by Tokashiki) has revealed that even within the same system, different teachers would have different Rokkishu (6 Ji Hands). Some would even have more (10 Ji Hands, etc.).

FYI, Happoren was used as an elementary Qigong exercise, as well as a way to strengthen the "iron bridges" (forearms). Of course, practical application is also a primary concern ;-)

<< he was asked to de-emphasize the lethal striking techniques, and emphasize the health aspects of the form, being that Sanchin is a form of Standing Chi Gung. With further research, and the help of a doctor, Miyagi changed Higashionna's Sanchin to closed hands, and a slower breathing pattern. He also created the more advanced breathing form, Tensho.>>>

Yes, but did you hear the rumor that Miyagi had asthma and couldn't do Sanchin the way that Higaonna did it? AGAIN, no corroboration, just one more corner to look into!

Vash

03-19-2004, 03:07 PM

Another discussion on Sanchin. (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/archive/t-288)

Vash

03-20-2004, 05:23 PM

Roots of Okinawan Iron Body Training (http://home.comcast.net/~uechiryu/index.html)

Vash

03-20-2004, 06:31 PM

The First One. (http://www.okinawabudokai.org/articles.html)

The Second One. (http://www.xs4all.nl/~frits007/articles/*****uchi.htm)

The Third One. (http://www.msisshinryu.com/articles/safreed/*****uchi.html)

I figure I can only inflate my post count so much on one thread . . . :p

What the fug? They censored "chin" in the title of the post.

rogue

03-21-2004, 02:10 PM

My Isshinryu sensei teaches sanchin without the ibuki breathing. He even starts to teach the body control/momemtary hardening part before any student is allowed to free spar.

I've always wondered about Shimabuku's selection of kata. Most are obvious choices but I'm not sure about some others. I'm getting the feeling that Shimabuku didn't set Isshinryu up as a best of Shorin and Goju to replace them but as a more streamlined system that was easier to get effective with. I can see where some of the more advanced parts of Goju and Shorin may have been cut from the normal curriculum to acheive that goal.

I've also run into someone who trained in shotokan and he's shown things that I've never seen done in shotokan before, but that's all he's ever trained. I can't remember his lineage but I know it's the shotokai branch.

How're things going Mega?

Vash

03-30-2004, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by 'Megapoint on another forum.

There are and were some Okinawan Shinshii who did Sanchin and lived to a ripe old age. Those who practiced the unnatural Ibuki method usually died young. Usually not always.

Forced exhalation, where the glottis is constricted while air is forcefully and slowly expelled from the lungs can definitely lead to long-term health problems. Obvious are strokes at a later age, when plaque build-up in the vessels is higher, and the chance that intravascular "debris" will be dislodged and become stuck at some juncture in the brain, leading to a CVA or a TIA.

Conversely, I don't know how many Naha Te practitioners do it this way, but to have audible and forceful respiration, tensing your hara (tanden) and allowing for a slower exhalation, without the pressure of a forced and constricted inhalation or exhalation, and to practice on tensing when struck (at the begining of breathing-"spitting"), rather than throughout the entire drawn-out exhalation, then this method may not be so detrimental in the long run.

Folks at risk of aneurysms (weak arterial walls), may eventually suffer from a ruptured cerebral aneurysm, if they strain and engorge the vessels of their neck and head too much, which would not be good . You don't know if you're one of those people. It's best to be smart and moderate in your training methods and intensity.

To practice Sanchin, with good, safe Shime and more natural breathing would probably be best in the long run. Karate seem to provide its smarter and more cautious practitioners with a safer AND longer life (it's not only about fighting). That is, if they understand the middlepath. All Okinawan karate is based on this philosophy after all, or at least purports to be.

Here's the link to the thread. (http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/Forum10/HTML/000093.html)

Good stuff.

SevenStarPM

04-15-2004, 01:38 AM

hi,
well I have to say this thread is really interesting. I've done Japanes karate in the past, and currently I'm doing 7 star praying mantis kung fu. What I'd really like to do is learn an okinawan karate style. problem is, I can't find any in my area (and I am willing to travel, but so far my closest is over 100 miles away..and thats a bit far even for me!) I was wondering whether anyone on this site knew of any Okinawan karate schools or Sensei in the North east of England?
Thanks

Vash

05-08-2004, 08:43 PM

Another Thread on KFM!!! ;) (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29871&perpage=15&highlight=cma%20vs%20jma&pagenumber=1)

New Topic:

Influences of tournament sparring/kata competition on practice of the art.

Why have these events become such a big influence on technique training in the gym these days? Or, have they influenced it at all?

I recall last Saturday, talking with the student of another teacher. He showed me his fighting stance, showed some of his "prize-winning" strikes. i was horrified. His side seisan, a stance which places the fighter on a forty-five degree angle, was sooo to the side, I had an easy shot at his rear kidney. Also, he was so slow in throwing a reverse punch from this tied-up stance, I, with my gimp ass, walked three steps into his guard by the time the punch grazed my shoulder.

My supposition:

Point sparring has polluted karate. Point sparring = suxors, and is suitable only for derisive comments from anyone who's ever had a 200lb man drop his knee across their face after the two trip during a rather heated sparring session. Therefore, I say it should be banned, and the proponents of such be flayed.