Yu Hai's teacher, Lin Jing Shan

[Ren Blade]

I'm understand that Yu Hai does modern Wushu and created the standardized Mantis form for Wushu, but has traditional 7 Star Mantis training from Lin Jing Shan. I was wondering if Lin Jing Shan's training was from Nan King Kuo Su Institute when it was in operation since 1928 but shut down when World War II started. Lin Jing Shan supposedly trained under Fan Xu Dong. Was Fan Xu Dong the Mantis teacher of Nan King Kuo Su Institute back then?

The reason I ask this was because I learned of alot of the modern Wushu masters back then working for the communists, had background in traditional training from Nan King Kuo Su Institute.

[B.Tunks]

Hi Ren Blade,

>I'm understand that Yu Hai does modern Wushu and created the standardized Mantis form for Wushu, but has traditional 7 Star Mantis training from Lin Jing Shan.

He does, though only learning a few major forms. He also studied Meihua Tanglang for some time.

>I was wondering if Lin Jing Shan's training was from Nan King Kuo Su Institute when it was in operation since 1928 but shut down when World War II started. Lin Jing Shan supposedly trained under Fan Xu Dong. Was Fan Xu Dong the Mantis teacher of Nan King Kuo Su Institute back then?

Fan Xudong only taught his Tanglang in Yantai, Shandong. Lin Jingshan learned the sum total of his mantis boxing under Fan Xudong in Yantai. It is said by some that lin himself taught for a short period in a military academy but this is not agreed to amongst his remaining students.

>The reason I ask this was because I learned of alot of the modern Wushu masters back then working for the communists, had background in traditional training from Nan King Kuo Su Institute.

Most of the masters having a background in a Guoshu institute in Shandong Province around this time, learnt in the Qingdao Guoshu Institute. Lin Jingshan did not, but many of the Tanglang masters of Taiwan did.

hope this helps,
B.T

[Ren Blade]

Much appreciated B. Tunks. Thanks. :cool:

Do you know much about Fu Jiabin? My Long Fist grandmaster, Li Mao Ching had Praying Mantis training under him. I don't see Grandmaster Li all that much as he lives in Taiwan. Most of my training is Long Fist from him but GM Li had included a couple Praying Mantis forms into our training, Xiao Hu Yuan and Beng Bu. My master only tells me that those 2 forms are Praying Mantis but didn't specify what style of Praying Mantis. My senior classmate tells me that those 2 forms are considered Long Fist Praying Mantis.

[Robert Young]

Ren Blade,

> Do you know much about Fu Jiabin? My Long Fist grandmaster,
> Li Mao Ching had Praying Mantis training under him.
> My master only tells me that those 2 forms are Praying Mantis
> but didn't specify what style of Praying Mantis.

Fu JiaBin practiced Liu He, but he did learn some PM when he was a kid. Your GM Li's Xiao Hu Yuan came from Wang Song Ting's Seven Star PM. I don't know his Beng Bu came from. But, I'm very sure of his Xiao Hu Yian's origin. Your GM Li is my teacher's younger brother. It was my teacher learned Xiao Hu Yuan from GM Wang and later taught the form to his Long Fist brothers. Now you know, your Xiao Hu Yuan is from Seven Star PM.

[Ren Blade]

Hi Robert. Thanks for the info. This is exciting to discover that your teacher is my grandmaster's older brother. I never learned much bout my grandmaster's family or asked much bout his family all these years. What is your teacher's name?

So you and I are practicing the same Xiao Hu Yuan. I have heard that Xiao Hu Yuan may have been from 7 Star Mantis from this messege board awhile back. But it wasn't confirmed. It's nice to know for sure now.

As for our Beng Bu, although our Beng Bu form is Praying Mantis, it's not the same Beng Bu form that's in 7 Star Mantis. I learned the Beng Bu form from 7 Star Mantis from Lee Kam Wing's Mantis book. And it's very different from our Beng Bu.

7 Star's Beng Bu starts off with the hands rolling inward and then they're raised over head and then press the palms down, then chamber the fists at the waist, then spring diagonally to the left into a cat stance squatting on the left leg and punch with the right while blocking with an open palm with the left, then spring back to the right into cat stance squatting on the right leg rolling the hands and hooking with mantis hooks on both hands.

With our Beng Bu it starts off with step foward with left foot then bring the right foot after and placing the feet together while raising the hands and arms from your sides to over your head and then pressing down, then step foward with left foot again the right foot following putting the feet together then squatting down on the legs and left palm opens and blocks to the right while the right arm swings up and back behind continues swinging all the way til it makes a full circle swinging the hand back up in front of you in a mantis hook hitting with the wrist.

I hope that was descriptive and brings a clear image. Does it seem familiar to you? I still wonder which style of Mantis our Beng Bu is from since it's not the same Beng Bu form of 7 Star.

[Robert Young]

Hi Ren Blade,

> 7 Star's Beng Bu starts off with the hands rolling inward and
> then they're raised over head and then press the palms down,

> With our Beng Bu it starts off with step foward with left foot
> then bring the right foot after and placing the feet together
> while raising the hands and arms from your sides to over your
> head and then pressing down

Those are simply some starting moves. You don't even need to do those moves if you don't feel like it. Or, you can add those to any form you practice. What it does is to adjust your breathing, to help you concentrate and ready to practice.

I don't think your Beng Bu came from my Gm Wong. It probably came from other sources. There were several PM teachers in Taiwan, they all have Beng Bu. They all different. It is actually quit normal to be different. A form passed down by every generation will change a little bit whether people like it or not. The form I taught my young brothers will be changed because their interpretation will be different than mine. Even they veirfy each individual move with me, their own experience will make them interprete the form different than I do mine and the way they practice will change. After two to three generations, a form can be changed so much that you don't even recognize. I have seen this happened many times. We are human, not machines. The most important thing is to really understand what the form means, what it can give you, and how to practice it. A form from good lineage is important, but if you don't know how to practice it, forms are useless. That's why we need a teacher.

Cheers,

[Tainan Mantis]

Hi Robert,
The only Beng Bu's in Taiwan I have found are:
Wang Yenyi's Beng Bu
An Elder of Wang Songting taught Laiyang or, as my shrfu calls it, Hsiao Beng Bu.
Many in Taipei have a Beng Bu descended from Yang Fengshr.

Also, I have come to the conclusion that some have learned and taught Beng bu as well as several other WHF forms from reading his books.
They also have vcd's for sale teaching this material.

[Robert Young]

Hi Ren Blade,
> I don't think your Beng Bu came from my Gm Wong.
I should be more clear about this. If your Beng Bu was from your GM Li, Li did not learn from Wong Song Ting. He probably learned from other PM teacher or even PM brother.

> What is your teacher's name?
My teacher's name Is Jian, Chang-Geng.



Hi Tainan Mantis,

> The only Beng Bu's in Taiwan I have found are:
> Wang Yenyi's Beng Bu
> An Elder of Wang Songting taught Laiyang or, as my shrfu calls > it, Hsiao Beng Bu.
I have not heard of Wang Yanyi before. Is he a student of Wong Song Ting?
I thought Li Kung-San, Li Dao-Kuei and Wei Xiao-Tang all taught Beng Bu. It has been a while for me, I think I heard them teaching the form 30 years ago. I believe GM Wong has it too, because he was the most important figure in Yian-Tai, Sang Dong province before he came to Taiwan.

[Tainan Mantis]

Hi Robert,
Wang Yenyi, like most masters of Taiwan is not well known.
Many well known masters can thank Su Yuzhang and his student for the fame.
I don't know Wang Yenyi's shrfu's name, but his Bneg Bu is radically different from the one I think Wang Songting new.
I saw my shrfu do Wang Songting's brother's version which I wold assume matches Wang Songting's.
I have asked direct students of Wang Songting and they have said they never new he did Beng Bu.
But Wang Songting, as you must know, had top students who never passed on the material and so now it is gone.

Li Dao Kuei? I think you mean Zhang De Kuei.
Su Yuzhang's student wrote a Beng Bu book called Mimen Tang Lang.
In the book Beng BU was attributed to Zhang De Kuei. So odd, since the manuscript matches WHF as well as 99% of the moves one man and partner set.

My shrfu took the book to Zhang De Kuei. Where Zhang said he never taught Beng Bu.
He also said that his PM is Gu Tang Lang, not Mimen as said by the next generation.
But the key is that we would wonder how Zhang would use WHF terminology.

Wei Hsiao Tang, closer lineage to Zhang De Kuie uses almost no terminology in common with WHF. He also did not teach Beng Bu.
I have also asked his students of this. The most importnt being Dzuo Hsien Fu who has done the most to preserve GM wei's material. He began in the early 70's or 1970, somewhere around that time.
I have iterviewed him on GM wei's PM and there is no beng Bu.
Though that doesn't mean he or any of these other guys didn't learn it.

Li Kunshan also did not teach Beng Bu.
BTW, Li Kunshan also did not teach Hsiao Huyen, though a book was later published saying that he did.

These three well known masters all had very small and compact systems of a small number of forms.

[Robert Young]

Hi Tainan Mantis,

Thanks for the info. All I know was that many people perform Beng Bu when I was young. We used to perform openly together several times a year at that time. That is why I thought those teachers have the form. Those are long time ago. I think my memory is getting worse.

> Li Dao Kuei? I think you mean Zhang De Kuei.
Yes, Zhang Dao Kuei. I think Su Yu-Zhang learned from him in the biginning. Maybe I'm wrong, those are distance memory.

I have never heard any of GM Wong's students taught Beng Bu either. The only one teaching GM Wong's material is Gao Dao-Sheng. I don't know if he learned Beng Bu or not, because I've never seen his student perform the form either. There are other senior students of GM Wong, but none of them teach. Gao Dao-Sheng went to GM Wong much later. We do have Tang Lang Sou and Xiao Hu Yuan from my teacher through GM Wong. But, I have never seen other people perform Tang Lang Sou like ours either.
GM Wong was a charactor, he never allowed other students watched when he was teaching someone. In that situation, most of his students learned different forms from each other. My teacher and his Long Fist brothers learned from GM Wong and each one learned different form.
My gut feeling is that the Beng Bu Chuan Ren Blade mentioned was from Su Yu-Zhang. But, I'm not sure. All I know is the things related to my Long Fist family.

Anyway, thanks for the information you gathered.

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Ren Blade,

Maybe, you can asked your teacher or have your teacher ask your GM Li where his Beng Bu came from.

[Tainan Mantis]

Hi Robert,
One of Wang Songting's students told me that he often performed the same form differently on different days.
My shrfu also came to this conclusion after visiting many of Wang's students.

So at one point a comprehensive video, I have the eyewitness account, was made of Wang's forms for posterity.
At this point it is not known where the video is.

There are several versions of Tang Lang Shou in Taiwan, they are all very similar.

Su Yuzhang did learn from Zhang Dekuei. But Zhang did not teach Tang Lang shou either. He taught Luanjie, Zhai Yao(7) and Ba zhou(4). As well as the basic roads of PM which follow those of other Meihua schools.

[Robert Young]

Hi Tainan Mantis,

> One of Wang Songting's students told me that he often
> performed the same form differently on different days.
I believe that actually.

May I ask who was the GM Wong's student you mentioned?

> So at one point a comprehensive video, I have the eyewitness
> account, was made of Wang's forms for posterity.
> At this point it is not known where the video is.
Hope someday that video will show up again, so people can have a chance to see it, so am I.

Cheer,