Crazy Monkey style boxing

[IronFist]

That's what they teach at the MMA school I went to tonight. Does anyone have any experience with this? It's seriously the most counter-intuitive thing I've ever done. I suck at it.

If you've never heard of it, it's a boxing stance where instead of holding your hands like you do in Western boxing, you kind of put your palms on top of your head so your elbows/forearms are covering you face (kind of like covering up in Western boxing, except your hands are higher up your head) and you basically block everything by moving your elbows around a little bit. It's weird because it's a very defensive stance, and it's weird to throw punches with your hands that high.

So does anyone have any experience with it? Does anyone do anything like it in Pride or UFC? It's supposed to work well without gloves on. I probably explained it wrong because I've only had one day of classes, but it was pretty strange. I am absolutely not used to actively letting punches hit me like that.

We'll see how it goes.

[Toby]

Are you allowed to move your hands away from your head? Otherwise I could see that your mid section would be wide open to attacks.

[IronFist]

You can move your hands wherever you want, you're just supposed to leave them up there.

Imagine someone with their hands on their head, elbows pointing forward.

You kind of hunch over a little bit, and keep your chin down.

I asked about the low strikes, too. You just bring you arm down (so that maybe your palm is by your cheek and your elbow is by your ribs then).

I think he said it's basically used to get into the clinch. Sounds like there's NOT an emphasis on actual standup fighting, but I don't know yet.

I hope there is a little bit... I like stand up fighting. I hate people who are all like "yeah get to the clinch as soon as you can. Stand up fighting is bull****." :rolleyes:

But like I said. I don't understand it so I'm probably explaining it wrong. I think there's more people here who have experience with crazy monkey so maybe they can explain it a little better.

[SevenStar]

We don't hold our guard like that, but when you cover while slipping a punch, you bring your arm up in a combing your hair motion. If someone is throwing a flurry of punches, you can slip back and forth like that and it will sound the way that you described. The above is also used to block a hook. There are several ways to slip or parry, and that's one of them. using that method, you are loaded and ready to throw a counter punch with the other hand.

[rogue]

I may be wrong but from what I understand it is used to get into the clinch. The idea being not to get into a boxing match with someone better than you.

[manofkent]

I doubt that u would fight like that all the time, ur balence would be impaired for a start, and u cant see side attacks.

Blocking hooks with ur hands on ur head!!!!!!!!!
whats that all about?????
Thats fine if ur oponent has huge boxing gloves on, but bare fist??? he will just start aiming for ur elbow and break ur arm!

[MasterKiller]

Imagine someone with their hands on their head, elbows pointing forward Sounds like a good candidate to get kicked in the stomach.

[apoweyn]

Thats fine if ur oponent has huge boxing gloves on, but bare fist??? he will just start aiming for ur elbow and break ur arm!

Bare fist vs. bent elbow. You think it's the elbow that's going to break? I doubt that very seriously.

[Meat Shake]

It will if you use your chi.
:rolleyes:

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Meat Shake
It will if you use your chi.
:rolleyes:

good point.

[rogue]

Bare fist vs. bent elbow. You think it's the elbow that's going to break? I doubt that very seriously. Don't even have to hit the elbow as the ulna is also there to take hits. How about open hand vs elbow? I can see where covering with elbows high can lead to your opponent taking your balance. Barefist uppercuts to the triceps and spearhand to the armpit are what I can also think of as weakness of being in that guard too long. But I think the idea is to clinch with the striker so you're not going to be going 3 rounds in that guard. Seems pretty good.

[apoweyn]

No argument here. With either your target suggestions or the idea that it's used primarily to get into clinching range.

But fist --> elbow = broken fist

WARNING! WARNING! GENERALIZATION MADE FOR DRAMATIC PURPOSES!!

[MasterKiller]

I don't personally know about a fist, but I can testify that I broke my foot by kicking someone who blocked their head with an elbow.

[rogue]

But fist --> elbow = broken fist What if the guy has really really weak elbows and the other guy is the comic book character IronFist? What then?

WARNING! WARNING! STUPID WHAT IF MADE FOR NO PURPOSE WHATSO EVER!!

Sorry I'm bored.



:p

[apoweyn]

Well sure, Rogue. If it were the characters from Unbreakable, I have no doubt that Bruce Willis' character David would break Mr. Glass' elbow in short order.

:)

Seriously, I don't mean to bust on the poster that wrote this originally. I really don't. I'm just reinforcing the idea that the elbows up thing (at least as long as it takes to get to clinch range) is a clever idea.

Masterkiller, I very nearly did the same thing. Didn't walk right for about a week and a half. Meh. Respect the elbows.

[rogue]

A very good idea. If you're trying to clinch the only things you have to worry about are a knee which can be countered by your own knee, and some punches and elbows which the Crazy Monkey seems to cover.

Ironfist, you can also post to Matt Thorton over on Defend net. I've found him to be friendly and willing to answer most questions.

[SevenStar]

coincidentally, I found a thread about crazy monkey on defend.net yesterday. you can do a google search.

[IronFist]

There was a guy in the class with a taped up knuckle and I think he said he hurt it by punching someone in the elbow.

[Stranger]

This guard mentioned by Ironfist sounds a lot like one I've seen in photographs of Jailhouse Rock/52 Hands.

There is use of the combing hair motion described by 7* in Systema.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Stranger
This guard mentioned by Ironfist sounds a lot like one I've seen in photographs of Jailhouse Rock/52 Hands.

Where have you seen pics of Jailhouse Rock/52 Hands? I thought it was the ultimate secret style?

[Stranger]

It had its 15 minutes in the MA media in the mid or late 1980's. Hell, one of the fight choreographers of Lethal Weapon Jailhouse Rock stylist. He lists his style as Jailhouse Rock in the credits. His last name was Newsome and he did a few photo shoots for "Style vs. Style" articles in this period as well. I don't know of anybody commercially teaching the art, but he did reveal it to the public. As to whether it is really a prison fighting system, I have no idea.

[No_Know]

"Blocking hooks with ur hands on ur head!!!!!!!!!
whats that all about?????
Thats fine if ur oponent has huge boxing gloves on, but bare fist??? he will just start aiming for ur elbow and break ur arm!"

The hook to the head or ribs can be blocked good by the guard in questionby a little bend or slight extension. As fotr for the aiming to the elbow, quarter turn of the hand and the muscle part of the forearm are more gront, lowered reduces bone hurt. Pull the elbow back and backhand the elbob hunting fist. You are now palm-up ontop (the inside) shoot punch to the face if guards with unchecked hand you have a free hand to chase his guard as it crosses his center an pop 'im in the face.


"Don't even have to hit the elbow as the ulna is also there to take hits."

Ulna danger? slight turn and forearm neat is presentedreducing damage potential to ulna without going far if at all out of guard.

"How about open hand vs elbow? I can see where covering with elbows high can lead to your opponent taking your balance.

The hunching mentioned counters balance stealing.

" Barefist uppercuts to the triceps"

If you can uppercut to triceps you should be tasting elbow.

"and spearhand to the armpit are what I can also think of as weakness of being in that guard too long.

Spearhand pits your Radius to the ulna (knife hand). Also, the guard in question would lean on a spearhand as it does punches I might think. And to the armpit, if you got in or were allpwed in there is closing the arm to the body to trap (damage your fingers).


"But I think the idea is to clinch with the striker..."

The annoying sure of himself guy (one of them) used an extended version of what the poster mentions.

I enjoy the concept of this guard style.~

[rogue]

I was just throwing out possibilities No_Know. :)

OK I tried what I think is CM with a friend during lunch. I'm sure I botched it some but it does look to be good for closing the distance. Don't know if this is also a part of it but with a little lunging footwork I caught my friend in the face with one of the elbows.

With a little iron body you'd be hard to hurt while closing in.

[Xdr4g0nx]

here is a clip with some crazy monkey in it, mixed with some grapplin too:

http://www.straightblastgym.dk/video/sbgi_seminartour.wmv

[SevenStar]

Nice clip!

here's some JhR photos:

http://www.geocities.com/delasalas2000/combatives.html

I've seen more online...I'm trying to find them.

[SevenStar]

here it is. It's been a while since I'd seen it - there aren't any extra photos, other than those of Mel Gibson

http://www.osmalandrosdemestretouro.bigstep.com/generic.html?pid=2

the closest most will probably ever get to 52 though is combining silat and capoeira...

I posted a thread on it a while back (or someone did) and if I remember correctly, there was some info in there from an acquaintance of mine who has some experience with it.

[KC Elbows]

We use a similar guard, but not from the start, because it does leave a lot of openings. Usually it is assumed while entering, perhaps going into it by way of an uppercut elbow. For there, the most common uses we have are:

- what's called the peeling elbow, essentially turning the body while keeping the elbow centered in front, a sort of b1tch slap with an elbow. Not high power, but disconcerting, and it breaks down the opponent's upper body structure. Usually, this is best combined with wrapping footwork as the bent arm presses the opponent's upper body(or head, same difference) backward over their trapped leg.

-This guard is pretty easy to switch to a diagonal downward elbow(as in, striking at say, the lest temple, with force at a diagonal down toward the lower right jaw). The trick is, start the guard with your palm toward your head, then bend your wrist and snake your hand through the gap between your arm and neck so that the outside of your hand(the side opposite the palm) is sliding against your neck, pointed towards your opponent. By the time your hand snakes just in front of your throat, your elbow should be at the desired angle. The advantage to this is that it takes almost no space to do this elbow, but it does take time to figure out the trick to doing the force smoothly. It'a a real loose motion, but not big at all- the bigger it is, the weaker the elbow. It also takes some loose shoulders, and is really hard to describe here, which is why I hadn't posted earlier.

-A downward elbow is even easier, but less likely to be used(who gets beneath that on purpose?).

-A sideways elbow is achieved the same way as the diagonal down one, just changing the angle and dropping a bit.

I've seen transitioning into this guard used to escape from standing headlocks by trapping the opponent's footwork and using the guard shape to press the opponent over into a weaker structure. I've also seen(and used) this to do what most are suggesting here, turtle boxing(using this to get in close at the moment of weakness, weathering the blows until then). IMO, this tactic only works against someone without KO power.

Essentially, this "guard" is probably the most recognizable staple of tai hui(six elbows), though the idea in tai hui is to assume it once closer, but a higher shape, almost like an uppercut elbow with the hand alongside the neck(elbow right next to the head). Further away, a more neutral stance is usually assumed.

[KC Elbows]

""How about open hand vs elbow? I can see where covering with elbows high can lead to your opponent taking your balance."

"The hunching mentioned counters balance stealing."

A quick comment adding to NoKnow's good post.

Not only is he correct about the hunching, but should anyone try to take your balance by taking that elbow, just snake your hand through the gap between your arm and your neck like I suggested above, and instead of elbowing, just let your hand continue out towards your opponent with an inverted blow(fist upside down), shuffling in for added power. This is not high power, but it is high percentage in this case, because his guard is gone by pressing your elbow, slipped outside of your guard and opening him to counterattack. The very act of him pressing your elbow will make your hand slip through faster.

Again, more staple tai hui for those who wonder what the heck I do besides post on the internet.

[KC Elbows]

Originally posted by No_Know
" Barefist uppercuts to the triceps"

If you can uppercut to triceps you should be tasting elbow.

"and spearhand to the armpit are what I can also think of as weakness of being in that guard too long.

Spearhand pits your Radius to the ulna (knife hand). Also, the guard in question would lean on a spearhand as it does punches I might think. And to the armpit, if you got in or were allpwed in there is closing the arm to the body to trap (damage your fingers).



One more time.

Agreed on the uppercut to the tricep thing, but as a variation, in tai hui, we don't usually assume this position with both arms, this is the guard on the side closest to our opponent when in very close, and should be used actively, not statically, so that your opponent is pressed into a position where the uppercut or spear hand is something they'd have to repostion to pull off, and the other hand will be there to deal with that.

Not to mention that the uppercut and speaphand should be low percentage on this one, because of the fact that the slightest torso turn would provide all the defense necessary. However, they are valid attacks to this.

The weakness I see in the lower version(hand on head, elbow somewhat up) of this is that in close, it makes a blind spot to each side, and so slipping to the side might yield good results. The obvious response would involve turning to the side, but if the attacker pressed sideways on that elbow while this was happening, the crazy monkey guy would be pressing against his own structure, and should open up his head. I'd assume the crazy monkey answer would be dropping under and back up, which still exposes his head for the shot, which better be good.

All in all, neat stuff. I assume that the crazy monkey goal is to get to clinch and take it there, at least in the version we saw before. Tai hui is to get to clinch and assault heavily and throw, not worrying about following the fight that leaves there(the thrown guy, or going to ground- from there, cross train).

[yenhoi]

Excellent KC Elbows.

The learning curve for the standup range is much faster from a CM delivery system then a typical "attribute based" Boxing appoach.

I have recently been working out and sparring with a SBG instructor. CM is good stuff.

No time, perhaps I can post more later.

Good to see you have found aplace for now, IF.

:eek:

[manofkent]

Ive bin talking to my sifu this week and he also agrees that blocking with fists on head is insaine, all good internal styles show that there is no need for blocking anyhow, striking or parying the attack is much more efective.


u cant fight like that, maybe with some practise u can fight people that are nowhere near ur level, but u try pulling that on any half decent gung fu man and U'll get a pretty fasy demonstration in how to get ur arms broken

[rogue]

u cant fight like that, maybe with some practise u can fight people that are nowhere near ur level, but u try pulling that on any half decent gung fu man and U'll get a pretty fasy demonstration in how to get ur arms broken
Well you can always stop by a straight blast gym that teaches CM and see if you're right.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by manofkent
Ive bin talking to my sifu this week and he also agrees that blocking with fists on head is insaine, all good internal styles show that there is no need for blocking anyhow, striking or parying the attack is much more efective.

Yes. That's why internal stylists always win Pride and UFC :D

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by manofkent
Ive bin talking to my sifu this week and he also agrees that blocking with fists on head is insaine, all good internal styles show that there is no need for blocking anyhow, striking or parying the attack is much more efective.

-boxers, thai boxers, etc. use a similar cover while slipping punches - in the event that I don't get out of the way, I still have protection. Also, you don't just rush straight in, hoping everything will bounce off of your forearms.

-your limbs are in tighter, unlike with a block.

-there is ALWAYS a need for blocking. Why? because you may not move out of the way, or your parry may fail. Do you think you can never be hit by ANYONE on this forum? Moving out the way sounds simple, but it's not always as easy as it sounds.

u cant fight like that, maybe with some practise u can fight people that are nowhere near ur level, but u try pulling that on any half decent gung fu man and U'll get a pretty fasy demonstration in how to get ur arms broken

I can say the same thing about internal kung fu...

[KC Elbows]

Originally posted by manofkent
Ive bin talking to my sifu this week and he also agrees that blocking with fists on head is insaine, all good internal styles show that there is no need for blocking anyhow, striking or parying the attack is much more efective.


u cant fight like that, maybe with some practise u can fight people that are nowhere near ur level, but u try pulling that on any half decent gung fu man and U'll get a pretty fasy demonstration in how to get ur arms broken

Okay, I had a couple other replies that I deleted, simply because you were getting inundated with replies, and I wished to avoid an argument in lieu of a discussion.

I think that the validity of this practice can be explained. Hell, I wouldn't hang out at martial arts forums if I didn't believe this.

I think that focussing on the hand structure, having the hands on the side of the head, is missing the more important part, what I believe no Know referred to as the "hunching".

Now, I'm not a big san shou follower, but I've seen footage of one fighter, Rudy Ott, essentially leaning his torso and head slightly in, and then drawing it back into a similar hunched position.

The rationale for this is to draw someone in to attack the head/upper body, so that when he goes back to the "hunch", the opponent must then gain ground to actually assault these areas. To do this, the opponent then must intermingle their footing with Rudy's.

Now, Rudy, being a san shou fighter, is always seeking to be the one to dictate when the clinch and throw is possible.

To clinch and throw, it is best to have your center of gravity mingled with your opponent's, so that you aren't having to bend over and lift.

So if an opponent moves in to where their footwork is intermingled with Rudy's(which would be the same as saying that their centers' of gravity were very close to each other), simply to strike, that might be a good time to throw.

So, by hunching, Rudy forces an opponent to move into this range, insuring that outside this range, the only attacks he need worry about are long leg attacks and attacks toward his legs. Since his mobility is not adversely affected by the hunch, the leg attacks can be avoided for the most part by evasion, leaving long leg attacks like the side kick.

Narrowing down the number of strong attacks an opponent is capable of using against you like this makes it much easier to deal with the limited number of attacks they have left.

Rudy Ott is not the creator of this tactic. It's used in a very large number of martial arts, including some kung fu styles.

So, if having the hands by the head is what you object to, I think you're placing a preeminence on that one detail, and missing the more important detail of the hunch. With the hunch in mind, taking a guard that makes the torso look vulnerable is very reasonable, because the torso is further back than it appears because of the hunch, and thus the torso is merely a lure to get the opponent to move into clinching range.

If you want to get an opponent within throwing range, and do this by luring the opponent to do so, isn't that kung fu?

[Unmatchable]

when they put their hands on their head just keep kicking (side or straight) to the gut or strike with the fist to the gut. The crazy monkey style btw is developed by Rodney "mucho" King. It seems it works well against untrained brawlers who just punch to the face, but personally I prefer the regular guard and strike.