why the hell is there a distinction between CMA and MMA?

[rubthebuddha]

<rant>

simple question, but i haven't heard anyone ask it in the past many months, so i'll ask it here: why is there a distinction between CMA and MMA? one can do just CMA and be a CMArtist, and one can do several arts, none of which are chinese, and be a MMartist. one can also do several arts, one of which is chinese, and be both CMA and MMA. what's the problem?

i do wing tsun, but i also do muay thai and escrima, and every now and then in sparring i'll throw in some grappling when i have an opening i know i can take. i'm a CMArtist at heart because wing tsun is my core, but i'll be ****ed if i'm not a MMArtist to boot.

WD does shuai chiao amongst his muay thai, etc., same goes for him.

Sevenstar does mostly JMA, but he adds muay thai and some shuai chiao, amongst about 17 other arts, to the mix. same for him.

so many have thrown their weewee into the big ****ing match over Onassis. know what? he's a CMArstist. know what else? he's an MMArtist. know what else? it doesn't ****ing matter. he trains hard, like Sevenstar and WD do, like MP and MK do, like i assume KF and Abel also do, so what's the problem?

le sigh.

</rant>

[Liokault]

Is Shaolin Do a MMA if they use karate stuff?

[backbreaker]

You and some people here know CMA are and can be good, but I don't know if the big name guys in Pride or UFC are doing CMA or not. I don't hear about CMA in MMA much so I guess probably lots of people don't know about them or think they are inferior( 2000 years of Muay Thai warfare combined with BJJ for the ground vs. dead kungfu systems that still use forms) . What do most MMA people think of Tae Kwon Do? More sparring than "kungfu"?

[SevenStar]

I was trolling in that thread. Basedon the response though, I think I should get best troll in the KFO awards at the end of the year.

In the grand scheme of things - CMA, MMA, JMA, etc. doesn't matter. MMA tends to denote people who crosstrain in various arts to make their style more complete. Can you be a CMA and an MMA simultaneously? sure. I think part of the problem is that some people get obsessed with their connotation and it's accomplishments, i.e. CMA getting hyped up because O won in UFC. That's great, but they neglect the fact that he's also trained in many other things. He's a martial mutt also - MMA. It just so happens that his foundation is FMA and CMA.

The distinction between a pure CMA and a MMA is that the CMA usually is not crosstraining, and if he is, it's in another CMA. These two parties have different points of view when it comes to the subject of training and fighting, as is constantly pointed out on KFO.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by backbreaker
You and some people here know CMA are and can be good, but I don't know if the big name guys in Pride or UFC are doing CMA or not. I don't hear about CMA in MMA much so I guess probably lots of people don't know about them or think they are inferior( 2000 years of Muay Thai warfare combined with BJJ for the ground vs. dead kungfu systems that still use forms) . What do most MMA people think of Tae Kwon Do? More sparring than "kungfu"?

here's the big MMA question. If you train in TKD, can you use it effectively? If so, then prove it. If you do and can, they will respect what you do. Even if you can't, they will respect you more for at least trying.

[rubthebuddha]

7* -- best single act of trolling, perhaps. but if you want any lifetime achievement awards, you **** well better work on your consistency. you post too much good stuff to ever be a real troll. :p

[CrippledAvenger]

RTB, no love for me?

I'm a MMA who got converted to SC. How's that for being troll fodder?

[rubthebuddha]

jeez, crippy, WD has a busted toe, so i wanted to make him feel better by including him. if it makes you feel better, i'll write you up, too:

<ahem>

"crippy does lotsa arts, shuai chaio being one of them. that makes him CMA and MMA, also."

happy now? ;)

[Gangsterfist]

My first MA was okinawan karate when I was like 10 years old, took it for 3 to 4 years. Then I took a few months of akido, and then a few months of judo in highschool, then went to college and quit. Now I train Wing Chun, and Taiji chuan Yang family, so I am now a CMA or MMA?

I agree there are no superior systems; there are superior fighters. If you train hard and keep in good shape you will be good at MA.

[side note]
Some systems are ridiculus compared to others, but the above statement IMHO is true to almost all modern martial arts.
[/side note]

[David Jamieson]

well, i practice some of the stuff I learned at the last kwoon i was a member of, southern shaolin and north shaolin cma, I now study wing chun and Yang Taijiquan and explore general concepts of martial arts.

so, i mix my cma! :eek:

which technically makes me an mma guy, but i don't go for the endless ground game stuff.

when i do standard workout i even lift some, do the eliptical and hit the heavy bags a la boxing style.

it's all good, everything brings something to the table even competitive wushu!

I'm 40 in a short while, so there isn't much in the way of competitive fighting left for me.

still.... hmmmmm :D

cheers

[Ikken Hisatsu]

I practice one art, and its chinese. but its constantly changing. our instructor takes the old idea of a young tree (and no I dont do shaolin do ;)) a lot more literally than most- if someone comes to class who also does BJJ, he is encouraged to share what he knows (unless his BJJ instructor has a problem with it of course), and if it works, we incorporate it into our syllabus. same with any art. we have adopted muay thai style roundhouse kicks because they are more effective than most. we use a lot of western boxing techniques because again, they are proven to be effective. is this a MMA or CMA? the whole idea of kung fu is that it evolves to be as effective as possible.

I think honestly that Bruce Lee hit it on the head with his philosophy that a good MAist uses what works, regardless of where it comes from. people these days sweat the little things such as names far too much.

[Water Dragon]

The answer can be summed up in one word RTB: Xenophobia

The CMA guys refuse to even consider anything that's not Chinese.

The MMA crowd considers BJJ, Boxing, Muay Thai, and Wrestling, but for the most part refuse to consider any other arts.

Me? I've been beating up my Boxing classmates with Beng Chuan, and I plan on beating up my SC friends with Muay Thai. If they throw better than me, I'll drag them down and choke 'em out.

I'm real lucky in that my SC coach is very open to Muay Thai and BJJ and my Vale Tudo coach is very open to Shuai Chiao and the other CMA tricks I use. Both help me intergrate what the other is teaching me. It really does make me feel blessed to have 2 coaches with such open minds.

So right now let me give a big shout to Joe Judt and Miguel Torres.

[blooming lotus]

MMA for sure. Kl's history sounds alot similar to mine...mainly a combination of various cmas but will for sure utilise whatever tech/stlye/aspect I find complimentary....definately consider self both cma and mma practioner...keeping in mind that they (debateably )n all originated from cma and shaolin but have scince morphed in form and philosophy....it's harder to unlearn something than it is to wait it out aND GO STYLE BY STYLE..ESPECIALLY When heady contradictory philosophy is an aspect.....

On my tkd base...good call earlier...You're right...alot of cma's, especially when you're talking shaolin have this no sparring thing as habit that can be a bit a bit of b*tch...but from lesson 1 in tkd I was sparring black belts...I love that s*it.....same with aikido etc...in there from day one.....I'm not nearly good enough and have no "karate" training perse..go figure that I got offered a job instructing Gokanryu karate???? I guess he just figured that fundementals would cover me....at the time I was studying at a shaolin kungfu school..and gotta agree again...When doing cma its different concepts, applications and philosophies so mixing simultaeous or adjacent karate training is just selling each short, so I knocked it back...almost now regretably.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Kung Lek

I'm 40 in a short while, so there isn't much in the way of competitive fighting left for me.


sure there is. I know someone who had a full contact match as a 50th b-day present to himself. I also know a 50 year old who competes with the masters and with the young guys in judo.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by SevenStar


sure there is. I know someone who had a full contact match as a 50th b-day present to himself. I also know a 50 year old who competes with the masters and with the young guys in judo.

Yeah, but he might be an anomaly. How many other guys do you know who have completed the entire Golden Bell training regimen?

It's not something I'd put myself through. That's for **** sure.

I figure I got until 35 to get my full contact competition record in. After that, I'm just SOL.

[SevenStar]

good point. The judoka is another tough bastid. Still, you've got until at least 40.

[David Jamieson]

not sayin i couldn't, just saying there's not a lot of opportunities to do so for me and the training schedule and commitment level is high for comp fighting.

to go into toughmans and hobby fighting is just a waste of time and overpopulated with idiots imnsho and point fighting is about as thrilling as dry toast for me. :D dull stuff it is.

leave that stuff to the younger guys, but even Larry Holmes retired at forty and that mans could beat the bejesus out of most men walking cma, mma or what have you. :D (go larry!)

cheers

[TAO YIN]

Originally posted by seven star


here's the big MMA question. If you train in TKD, can you use it effectively? If so, then prove it. If you do and can, they will respect what you do. Even if you can't, they will respect you more for at least trying.


My question is, prove it to who? To some judges, and fans, and etcetra in a state competetion? At a regional competetion? To someone in a National competition? Or prove it on TV in Pride, UFC, King of the Cage? To the martial arts world at large? Is proving it to the guy whose arse you sent to the hospital for attacking you,,,,ok???

I was just curious because ok for instance you, I mean I don't know who you are or anything about you. And that is solely because I've never meet you, trained with you, or fought with you. And you seem as your a pretty good sportfighter right? Maybe you have some fight records and matches material somewhere......but I've never seen them, plus couldn't care. Maybe I have some fight records somewhere, and you've never seen them, and probalby you couldn' give a shiot. So I mean, what are you getting at?

I mean maybe you, or joe, or any other matial artisit prove yourself on UFC, and that is a good thing, money, fame, ego, etc...but what about the prison community,,,,do you want us to prove it in prisons and stuff? I mean, most people at Chino couldn't give a fark about UFC,,,and they would probably fare pretty well in it.


Anyways, Jus fuggin wit ya.


Tao

[CrippledAvenger]

"prove it"

To most of us in the MMA community, it's more about you actually making use of what you were taught, working successfully against an opponent who wants to take your head off. If you can do it outside of the ring (i.e. you bounce or beat up schmucks in an alleyway like a vigilante) and have it documented, more power to you. You've "proven it."

If you can't do such things for fear of legal reprocussions or lack of opportunity, the ring is the best substitute. It's not about winning a tournament, it's about using what you can under controlled circumstances with a resisting opponent. I don't care what the claim is, if you can do it and have proof of it, we will respect you. If you can just walk into a judo shiai (or hell, I might begin to belive if you can use it in randori) and demonstrate that your horse can stop a shoot, you've "proven it".

This goes for other claims like multiple opponents, weapons (read: dogbrothers), inch power, etc. We just want an independent record that documents an achievement. That's what what we mean when we say "have you proven it?"

I honestly don't know where many CMAs get this warped idea that "proving it" means you need a trophy. We just want verification, not heresay. Maybe it's a bit unfair, but to be honest there's been so many frauds from the traditional camp that it's stupid NOT to request some sort of proof.

[SevenStar]

To whomever is bustin your balls about your style. MMA guys tend to be the put up or shut up variety. If you tell me your style would simply sidestep to avoid a double leg, then show me. If you claim you can do it, you'll get called on it.

Do you have to? Nah. But so many TMA talk about how the MMA community is always bashing their style - when you look at some of them, it's not hard to understand why. Secret this, too deadly that, I have an undefeated grandmaster, etc. People want to ride on the claims their style makes, but will not try and find out themselves.

Ultimately, you really only have to prove anything to yourself, but if you won't put up, then you can't even do that, right?

[Unmatchable]

WaterDragon why don't you compete in the ufc? You could be like that 21 year old Judo guy who recently competed and won and showed them some Judo techniques. Or that Yoshida guy. Instead you would show them some Shui Chiao or beng quans or whatever, and people would worship you (for awhile).

[Unmatchable]

That's what I tried telling the internal guys. But most of them refuse to do anything about it. They want all the bashing to go away without doing anything (even putting video of themselves sparring). And than they say they would fight if they didn't have to use gloves or make up various excuses, or say video evidence of fighting would not exist because someone would die or something. I think the "Neija" community represents the worste of the cma crop including the most chi huggers.

[David Jamieson]

crip-

there's frauds in all camps. Probably just as likely to be as many teaching poor material in the mma market as the tma one.

not even wanting to go into the esoteric practices associated with tma which revile violence and the arts become a form of self cultivation gradually moving the student towards more of lifestyle practice than that of competitive fighter.

it's the natural course of things. You don't see to many tma walking around with cauliflower ears and slurred speech from being punch drunk one time too many, that's for sure.

cheers

[CrippledAvenger]

Kung Lek (and others)--

That's certainly true. But the one great thing about ring records are that they ARE verifiable. If someone tells me they're a black belt in Judo or knocked a man out in the ring, it's a simple matter of research to confirm and deny.

As for the esoteric practices, that's not really my bag, but it's also not something I rag on until you start making claims like Ling Kong Jin. Furthermore, if you wish to see martial arts as self-cultivation, more power to you. Just don't tell me you'd stop my hook with a tiger strike to the chest, if you haven't actually managed to do so on the street or in an approximation thereof.

(Note: that was a made up example, before anyone jumps on my case. :D )

Let's put it this way, I've put a lot of time and energy to gain the ring skills I have. It's simply insulting for someone who hasn't gotten the same skills for any number of reasons (guts, too deadly) to try to tell me how it's done. I don't tell Master Wang or Yoshida how to throw people, for example. I shut up and listen to anyone who has experience in the ring or the street.

And yes, there are risks, Kung Lek. It's understandable that you want to avoid such things. It's not a weakness of character if you don't do the things necessary to satisfy the requirement of "proof". But at the same time, don't tell people who are striving to meet that end that it "doesn't mean anything".

Just a general rant. :D

[TAO YIN]

nevermind seven,,,,,,,,im not sure you understood my point. but as you have answered i guess somewhat,,,,however, my first post didn't make much sense anyways......


what you were speaking of was strictly the mma community,,,,but what does this community consist of?

but with what you have answered.....are you telling me that people actually come up to you during the day and bust your balls about the style or styles you play,,,,,,,or do you as an mmaer or whatever, actually go up to people and say that...i practice different arts but don't go up to people and bust there balls about it. so what do you mean?

in any event, i never have really understood the point of this whole mma thing vs tma thing anyways,,,,,,fighting is about speed, power, timing,,,,,,no matter what the style, no matter what the event, no matter who the person,,,,,,if you want to kick someone hard enough to hurt them you have to be able to react quicker than them, or be able to wear some beatings and then still react at some point quicker than them,,,,,if you want to punch same thing, if you want to trap same thing, if you want to grapple same thing.....any good fighter from any style knows that for fighting there is a time for everything. When it is time to punch punch, when it is time to kick, kick, when it is time to trap, do so, when it is time to shoot,,,,,,,then freaking shoot so hard that as soon as the mid of the guys back hits the concrete, your elbow has cracked his adams apple, and splattered his head on the concrete.....then ground and pound......then choke him out.....and back, and to the left.







rocekt scence it hard

[rubthebuddha]

WD -- xeno is spot on. you saying that got me thinking about fear -- fear of being proven wrong, inadequate, or simply unable to do in an uncontrolled environment what you've been practicing for the past x-number of years against friendly opponents. that, and a general fear of having someone shoot in and take your ass to the ground before he starts pulping your mug. :)
btw -- sorry about the toe "jab," but crippy was just askin for it. ;)

tao yin -- proving should only be to yourself, as a matter of being honest with yourself. a math equation or a scientific hypothesis isn't valid until scrutiny happens. same with a technique or ability. many wing chun people (not this one ;)) are notorious for thinking their bong sau can stop anything. anyone that tells me this simply gets my one suggestion -- block a thai round kick with it, tell me if either your forearm or face/body survives unscathed. never do i get a "good idea" as a response. it's always, "i know it can do it, and that's all i need." anyone who's FELT (not seen, but felt, even if only through holding thai kick shields for someone) knows such a belief to be bull****, but those who haven't usually trust their own guess and don't actually test it. thus, they think they know, but they fail to test it, and by that, they aren't being truly honest with themselves about the technique. competition is a valid format to test what you know in a semi-controlled environment (ref, ring doctor, corner trainers with a towel ready to throw, etc.) against someone who's just as eager to test his own stuff. and it's a simple way to find out just how solid a bong sau really is. :)

[TAO YIN]

rub the buddha,

i totally understand. if everyone is basically saying that tma/cma means that you have never tested it and yo go around saying bong saus work against thai kicks, (people actually say this?) im too deadly, i got dim mak, and i kill people,,,,,,,,,,,and never having tested any of it,,,,,,,,,,,,,then fark cma and tma.......on the other hand, if doing mma means that you have never been in a street fight and either injured someone or got injured, but you have been in lots of ring fights and your the coolest, then fark that too......also if being an mmaist means that you truly believe punching the throat is a waste of time,,,,,,then fark that too.

[rubthebuddha]

'tis correct. and don't forget the proverbial "been accosted by a low-level threat who really doesn't warrant getting the shat beat out of him" -- the type of threat that warrants softer restraints. a drunk on the street can be a great threat, but if someone is so sloshed that they struggle stand, yet he or she still picks a fight with you, putting fist through nose really isn't the best idea. tie 'em up and call the po-po, but don't break someone that doesn't warrant a breaking.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Unmatchable
WaterDragon why don't you compete in the ufc? You could be like that 21 year old Judo guy who recently competed and won and showed them some Judo techniques. Or that Yoshida guy. Instead you would show them some Shui Chiao or beng quans or whatever, and people would worship you (for awhile).

Are you being sarcastic, or do you really think that a 30 year old father of 2 who works 12 hour days and is lucky to get in 8 hours of training a week can just walk into the UFC and be competetive?

Also, I don't want anyone to worship me. That's not how I am.

[David Jamieson]

Crip-

I don't know if the ring is the best place to proove anything to be honest. I can think of more than one or two boxers who rose through the ranks by fighting bums. lol

In actuality there is a lot of that. Put a guy through 10 fights with sub standard fighters to bring the record up to where the guy gets a shot at a real fighter. Not that uncommon, particularly in boxing.

The pool of terrific fighters is relatively small, and for the most part, none of us are gonna get that far. there is no proof, there is no victory in beating someone who doesn't have the skills to match you.

Evenly matched fights are undeniably the best ones for the observer and for the fighters. A real test of skill. An underdog taking out a favourite is also some proof.

But the majority of it is a whole lotta meatsmacking.
Let's face it, to find decent fighters is like finding american idols LOL. 100,000 people will try out, but in the end, maybe 4 of them are any good. An off day can take any of em out. the rest are there as filler so we the audience have something to watch while we wait for the real talent.

Anyway, it's not for everyone, but the exercise is good for everyone.

cheers

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
Crip-

I don't know if the ring is the best place to proove anything to be honest. I can think of more than one or two boxers who rose through the ranks by fighting bums. lol



I think that depends on who you're trying to prove something too KL. Me? I need to prove that my art is effective to myself. The ring is the perfect place for that.

(also the @ss whooping I'll take if I slack off on my training or diet is the best motivator I have found yet :D )

[MasterKiller]

The ring is your most likely source for fighting people from different backgrounds than yourself.

Beating someone who fights like you do is not the same as beating someone who fights completely different than you do.

Ropes or not, open competition is the best venue to see if you buttered your bread on the proper side of the training sandwhich.

[Unmatchable]

So you fight in a ring but wont fight in the ufc? I didn't know you have such a busy life. I'm bloody Sorry chap.

[Water Dragon]

There's a big difference between amateur and professional level fighting. I'm definately amateur level.

[Unmatchable]

oh I see what your saying. What kind of ring do you fight in? San Shou, Muay Thai, mma, or what?

[Water Dragon]

Right now we're doing Boxing and I'm going to start doing some Judo shiai. It sounds like we'll move up into Muay Thai and San Shou by the summer.

Eventually I'd like to compete in amateur MMA, but that would be a couple years into the future.

[Unmatchable]

Is Judo Shai just Judo competition?

Do you use Shui CHiao in the Judo matches? And use xingyi in the boxing matches along with boxing? DO they allow that?

[No_Know]

MMAist does whatever makes them competative for the ring fighting currently done.

CMAist does a Chinese martial art.

A MMAist might train in or have trained in a Chinese MA, if they use that specific Chinese fighting in their ring fighting they are a MMAist who used fighting that can be found in Chinese martial arts (training/fighting).

A Mixed Martial Artist trains to fight in a ring--organized situation.
A Mixed Martial Artist can do a Chinese Martial Art.
A Chinese Martial Artist did not train primarily for the ring.
A Mixed Martial Artist incorporates various martial sports or martial arts as part of their style.
A Chinese Martial Artist did not incorporate other Martial Arts as part of their style.

A Chinese Martial Artist that trains primarily to fight in the ring against other Chinese Martial Artist who train primarily to fight in a ring according to the line presented might be considered a Chinese Martial Sporter.

I No_Know about Chinese Martial Sports--San Da, San Shou, Shuai Chiao--(ring orienteds)~

Shuai Chiao might be Chinese only by the fact tha mongols were the ruling body of China at some point. But in Chinese History class I made a comprehension "Only the Chinese rule China"-by Ernie Moore Jr.

It means that whoever was ruling, they conformed to the China that was there before the current rule.~ A sport (gorey as it might have been) might have been popular and evolved-ish, but, Chinese? I No_Know.

San Da and San Shou.?.If they are old enough they are traditional by definition. But for how people tend to talk traditional would have a leader, ritual, and forms (at least non-weapon). Combining old picking the best~of it is a new thing not a continuation of the old. It might be a way to carry on the old, but with too much difference, then not the same. Therefore not the old...

Some might think.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by TAO YIN
but with what you have answered.....are you telling me that people actually come up to you during the day and bust your balls about the style or styles you play,,,,,,,or do you as an mmaer or whatever, actually go up to people and say that...i practice different arts but don't go up to people and bust there balls about it. so what do you mean?

actually, yes, it happens. Online, you have TMA guys that make claims, some of which are unverifiable. you have MMA that do the same. In person, I've had TMA say things like "all boxers do is stand there and slug eachother" or "in three months of grappling, I could be as good as any bjj blue belt" and "in a real fight, you just kick them in the nuts or hit them in the throat" - outlandish things. but they can't back any of them up. Why? No experience. There are closed minded people everywhere, but IME the TMA have bee more closed minded. I attribute that to experience. People with experience tend not to discount anything. If it works, use it. People who don't say things like "all bozers do is stand there and slug eachother".

in any event, i never have really understood the point of this whole mma thing vs tma thing anyways,,,,,,

It's just a point of view thing that's all. different means to what should eventually be the same end. We just tend to quarrel over the means...

[Merryprankster]

You don't see to many tma walking around with cauliflower ears and slurred speech from being punch drunk one time too many, that's for sure.

Cauliflower is just an occupational hazard of grappling. Not so much throwing, but definitely groundwork. It just is.

Punch drunk one to many times is an issue of how competitions can injure you. That's a COMPETITION issue, not an ART issue.

Put on a competitive full contact circuit for Wing Chun or <<insert art here>> with the same depth and popularity as Boxing, wrestling or even MMA and you'll have the same problems.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
The ring is your most likely source for fighting people from different backgrounds than yourself.

Beating someone who fights like you do is not the same as beating someone who fights completely different than you do.

Ropes or not, open competition is the best venue to see if you buttered your bread on the proper side of the training sandwhich.

well said.