How often do you do your forms?

[JAFO]

Here's a nice safe question.....

How often do you work on your forms? I'm not referring to just passing through them, but actually using one of the forms to work on a position or a combination or a concept?

[kj]

That is a good question. Of course everyone will have their own perceptions, experiences, and opinions, as on all matters.

I work on one or more of my forms daily (save the unfortunate missed day here and there).

I never work on my forms simply to pass through them. I don't merely move through the forms or "recite" them like an alphabet; I train in them. This is where I can best isolate and hone the precision of my positions and movement. It is where the "engine" of my Wing Chun is built.

Even on days when I don't manage to do one or more of my sets in total, I always fit some pieces or parts into my day. I would prefer to train a portion of my set with focus and sincerity, than to whip through any or even all of them for the sake of saying I did so.

Similarly, after having gone through an entire set, I frequently break out movement segments to work and refine, especially those I feel are "off" or that may be particularly challenging at that point in time.

And, as you suggest, I also spend time exploring the movements, and concepts of application. I don't perceive the sets as something flat or linear like an alphabet or dictionary. To me they are a multi-dimensional, dynamic, and living organism of information and experience from which I can endlessly mine, learn, and develop. Beyond the figurative, my sets are living organisms in a literal sense, because I am part of them.

The sets additionally serve as a calibration mechanism, closely integrated with my other areas of work and training. This is not to say that my sets "constrain" my movements or applications (e.g., as with a technique oriented perspective), rather they "inform" them.

I'd be far better off without the odd missed day of forms work. The more, the better. For me, doing my sets is never "something to get out of the way" or to "finish quickly, so that I can get onto 'real' work." My forms are real work. I treat this part of my training with seriousness and respect.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

P.S. There are no safe questions, LOL. :D

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Solo sets are key to feeling and cultivating your structural/internal attributes. I always do my best to practice daily and always work on whats going on inside/connections. Even on those days when I dont have much time to do anything I always pick one or two things to work on. If you practice often, It will change you!


Gotta run,

[redtornado]

I like to Go through forms slowly and feel out my position, and I do this daily.... Training my brain to move on instinct......A class for me is 2 hours So I train at home also,,, Train Hard, Rest easy, The circle will Repeat!!!!!! "live long die trying"

[wingchunner]

about 2 hours a day.

Good luck.

Marty

[KingMonkey]

Once you've learnt your alphabet can constantly revisiting it in isolation and singing the ABC song make you a better writer or hold an interesting conversation?

I spend about 10-15 mins twice a week.

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi KingMonkey,


Originally posted by KingMonkey
Once you've learnt your alphabet can constantly revisiting it in isolation and singing the ABC song make you a better writer or hold an interesting conversation?

Unless you believe SLT to be as basic as the alphabet, this is a false analogy. If I wanted to be a better writer I would analyze components of my writing to see if I can't improve them. Is my writing clear? Is it concise? Is it riddled with unnesessary words, phrasing, or other components? Does it communicate what I intend it to communicate? How purely does it express my thoughts, emotions, etc.? Does it evoke the emotional response I intend it to?

Have I already mastered all of the elements mentioned above? And if not, would practicing improve my abilities?

Or to look at it another way, have I mastered SLT to the level I have mastered the alphabet?

Regards,
Zhuge Liang

[KingMonkey]

Hi Zhuge,

I agree of course you need to practice to a point where your forms are fluid and correct.
I'm afraid I tend to view these things through my personal filter which is training WC for realistic combat as opposed to a hobby like pottery or basket weaving.
As such I see much more mileage in emphasizing practicing application than forms.

To extend our previous analogies I think that holding a real conversation is a better one than writing, because a conversation happens in real time, like a fight.
You can practice asking a woman out in front of the mirror in your bedroom and sound confident, suave and sophisticated for hours on end.
Then put her in front of you and you clam up and or get all tongue-tied and sound like a twat.

I guess I see forms like many things in MA training to be a bridge rather than a final destination.

[foolinthedeck]

not enuff

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi KingMonkey,


Originally posted by KingMonkey
I guess I see forms like many things in MA training to be a bridge rather than a final destination. [/B]

I agree with you, and I think that your analogy with being a better speaker is apt.

However, I'm sure many people will confirm, there are many things you can do on your own to improve your skills as a conversationalist, practicing in front of a mirror being one of them. Furthermore, I don't believe anyone has made the point that you should practice on your own and forego other forms of practice (such as chi sao, sparring, etc.). Wing Chun, being a live art (as with most other martial arts), requires us to practice with live hands. Forms, chi sau, sparring, etc., are just different aspects of your training designed to improve differents aspects of your overall skill.

The question is, time being limited, how much time should you allocate to each aspect of your training? This of course depends on the person and his/her goals. If you believe that practicing your forms will improve your overall skill, or will improve certain aspects of your skill that you wish improvement, then there's strong motivation to practice them. On the other hand, if you see no benefit of forms practice, I'd suggest not bothering at all and to work on other stuff.

A more intersting topic of discussion may be to figure out why some people put more weight into forms practice than others. What are the benefits, real or imagined, that one person might feel is important and another might not? What are the opportunity costs of forms practice? I suppose these questions are for another thread.

Regards,
Alan

[Tom Kagan]

Originally posted by kj

For me, doing my sets is never "something to get out of the way" or to "finish quickly, so that I can get onto 'real' work." My forms are real work. I treat this part of my training with seriousness and respect.


It depends. Time off can help if you're "burning out" and is advisable when it occurs. But, practicing by rote not only has its place, but also can be beneficial.

I visit relatives sometimes who live in the middle of nowhere. They find it amusing I lock the doors of my car when it's in their driveway. But, in my mind, why mess with a routine - even if it doesn't make sense for the circumstance - as long as it doesn't get in the way? If I start breaking my routine and deciding when it is appropriate to lock the car or not, I might start forgetting to lock the car when I should (well, more often than I already do. ;) ).

Especially when I sported a cute little mouse next to my eye, or now when I'm hobbling about on a hyper-extended knee injury, or the time I forgot to wear long sleeves when I had a completely bruised left triceps, people will ask me why do I put myself through these things (even the people who've asked before).

My best, non-bull**** answer? "Habit."

Believe me, after burying my business mentor, then burying my Sifu, then burying 28 other friends including the ones who gave me my first job and the ones who gave me my own company's first contract, and while resuscitating a business displaced from nearby to 2 1/2 hours away from me, habit is not only about all a non-superhero can muster. And, if it's habit alone that keeps a person training, that's doing pretty dang good in my book.

Don't underestimate the power of repetition for pure repetition's sake. On occasion, nothing is wrong about doing a form or getting to class just because it's "something to get out of the way" and wanting to "finish quickly, so that one can get onto 'real' work." It's just life intruding into one's world. Life (and Ving Tsun) is too precious and too taxing to be taken with such seriousness and respect all the time.

[There is also nothing wrong with playing around with things to break up the monotony. I once spent four days playing the Jong as Robby the Robot (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1119475/) just because I thought it was amusing. My wife and kids were ready to puke long before I beat that one to death. :) As a joke, one of my SiHings once demonstrated the 'super-secret' Ving Tsun monkey style. :D ]

If not for habit, I would have quit martial arts entirely. I know more than a few people who have experienced firsthand how important the "habit" can be. Progress and insight is never linear; human beings do not work that way. It comes in fits and spurts.


It is impossible to be at one's best every single moment they have available to train. Sure, "quality time" over "quantity time" is a noble goal. But, "quality," even for an instant, does not occur in a vacuum. You have to put in enough "quantity time". Otherwise, the opportunity for "quality time" to make an appearance is reduced greatly. (Just ask my kids about that! :cool: )


Anyone can train when they want to. But can they will themselves to train at any level they can muster when they don't want to? If they can, that's the beginnings of a champion.

[yuanfen]

Re-original question-
I have not missed doing the sil lim tao even a single day since 1976. It is never mechanical- always try to make it intentional.
Discover little things about connections and motion everytime.

I do other forms, dummy and weapons motions several times a week.

Chi sao (various types including lat sao) 4 times a week in classes.

Other hand and footwork routines 3 times a week

Everything is inter-related in wing chun development.

Additionally- I do other supplementary things daily including yoga,
chi gung, deliberate walking and meditation.
-------------------------------------------------------
My major weakness is love of good food ( no chain food and no chainstore kung fu either)... but like many Americans.. I am always planning to lose weight. Slowly but surely this time...I think therefore I am.

[kj]

Tom, exception noted, and point well taken.

Not only do I agree with the essence of your post, I can personally relate. I've had similar experiences, not the least of which was when my youngest brother passed away very unexpectedly. I recall vividly how I forced myself to train. My mind was anything but focused on the work, though I clung to it with all my might. It was one of the best things I did for myself during that time, on a number of levels.

I may have been more accurate in my first offering, had I simply said I don't consider the forms as something trivial, a necessary evil, or a waste of time, and left it at that.

My attitude toward the sets remains serious and respectful, even on those days when I'm not "feeling" particularly serious, focused, or motivated to the task. I admit that every once in awhile, I find myself wishing they were over sooner; even I am human. ;)

Habitually doing the forms is indeed an excellent practice. My caveat would be that doing them haphazardly, or building more bad habits through careless repetition than good ones, is less helpful. I like to think that if we have developed a habit of doing the sets, it is with the further habit of doing them in a constructive manner, even if at the moment we are not as fully focused on the task as we might otherwise be.


Originally posted by Tom Kagan
Anyone can train when they want to. But can they will themselves to train at any level they can muster when they don't want to? If they can, that's the beginnings of a champion.

I couldn't agree more heartily on this point.

Thanks for your thoughtful contribution, and the opportunity to reflect on the shortcomings in my earlier post. Perspective and context is everything.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[kj]

I admire your practice habits, Joy. Consistency in practice through that many years is quite amazing.

Wingchunner, kudos to you too. Finding that much time for practicing sets every day, let alone time for all the other aspects of training, is pretty incredible. More so if that schedule is maintained through the years. Short of professional athletes and the independently wealthy, I doubt few manage to pack in as much time.

Regards,
- kj

[kj]

Et toi??
- kj

[JAFO]

Sorry, I probably should have offered this up front.

My short answer is - not enough. Big surprise, huh?

I go through periods where I make it every day, and then there are periods when I only get there a couple times a week. Usually when I start feeling overly sloppy or weak I start feeling guilt over my laziness until I just can't stand it anymore. I'll try something new that my sifu is showing me, and because I can't quite find the exact position right off, it won't come off as cleanly as it should. There's no way to fake it or pretend there's another reason, so that usually pushes me over the edge and I get back on the horse.

The guilt strikes me especially hard when I remember my sifu does his forms seriously a couple times a day and has for the last 25+ years. Not counting his teaching. Leadership by example is a tough lesson to ignore.

After a week or so, I tend to get my groove back and new things come easier and cleaner. That always makes me feel a lot better.

The groove and the guilt - it's like the carrot and the stick.

[reneritchie]

Not very often these days. For a variety of reasons, these days I prefer to focus on very short forms (either San Sik or small extracts of the forms), and to do a lot more two-person training.

The forms in a way feel like a cheat right now, a way to go through the motions without fine tuning the details. Just doing a rep of SLT and being done with it seems like a bit of a cheat compared to isolating a few moves and really drilling down into them.

Maybe later I will find it more beneficial to re-integrate.

[Gangsterfist]

I try to do the SLT everyday. I work on other forms if time permits and I am not doing something else like working out, sparring, chi sao, etc.

I also do the first taiji short form every day as well (I try to do it everyday). Sometimes work gets in the way, but I have to make a living so I don't get too upset about it.

Occasionally for a change I wil run through some of okinawan karate kata stuff I can remember from way back in the day.

I also practice Qigong when permitted. There are some days where I will do one form and then do nothing but Qigong after that.

My friends g/f is a yoga instructor and I am thinking about taking a few yoga classes so I can incorporate that into a daily stretch form work set.