Shaolin Wing Chun ??

[redtornado]

I was wondering if anyone knows theses forms? And if there is anonther way of saying them? -Single arm Conquer Dragon Hand - Golden Snake Coils Loin Hand - Long Short Brigde Hand

[Savi]

Do you have any more information on this Red Tornado? Where did you come across this information? Just curious.

Thank you in advance...

[FIRE HAWK]

Red tornado got the information from this Hung Gar website that i found that says it teaches Shaolin Wing Chun I think it is Vietnam Wing Chun I think I seen that snake form on a Vietnam Wing Chun website
http://www.hunggakuen.com./
Arm Conquer Dragon Hand
Dhok Pei Hoang Lung Sau

Golden Snake Coils Lion Hand
Kam Szeh Tziehm Sie Sau

Long Short Bridge Hand
Cheung Duen Kuen

They come from Tit Kui Sams Hung Gar lineage .

[redtornado]

:D :p :D Yes, that web site was good! But these forms are they the same as YIP MAN ? There are alot of different ways of learing forms? Yip Man They are simple to the piont Right?
I like to try these other forms also!
But it will after I finish with Yip Man's first!

[reneritchie]

Shaolin is a popular name in China and for centuries people have added it to their system, whether or not there was any connection, direct or indirect, to help attract students.

Vietnam has had a turbulant history and when WCK first showed up in the 1930s, it was taught to both ethnic-Cantonese and ethnic-Vietnamese, however the ethnic-Vietnamese students do not seem to have been given the same amount of material (which was not uncommon back then).

In addition to the WCK of Yuen Chai-Wan and Lui Yiu-Chai, however, also extent were a variety of other Chinese MA, and some students added or created other sets and weapons into their own WCK. It's not uncommon now to find branches there with nearly a dozen weapons (tiger fork, halbard, straight sword, etc.) and many, many empty hand sets.

However, to what extent any of these forms reflect what is usually considered Foshan WCK, or whether or not they have any actual Shaolin connection, is debatable.

[Savi]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Shaolin is a popular name in China and for centuries people have added it to their system, whether or not there was any connection, direct or indirect, to help attract students. So, Rene.... you are speaking on behalf of all those individuals who use the name Shaolin - as if you apparently know their reasoning? I'd be more careful and try to leave the discussion more open to others when talking about this. Rene, some kung fu families out there do originate from a Shaolin heritage. Some families are proud of that heritage and it is THEIR identity. Do not be so eager to shun the Shaolin name just because of today's commercial marketing. Certainly there are schools out there who use the name to promote their business, but there are also others who use the name because to them it is a part of their kung fu identity.
Originally posted by reneritchie
Vietnam has had a turbulant history and when WCK first showed up in the 1930s, it was taught to both ethnic-Cantonese and ethnic-Vietnamese, however the ethnic-Vietnamese students do not seem to have been given the same amount of material (which was not uncommon back then).

In addition to the WCK of Yuen Chai-Wan and Lui Yiu-Chai, however, also extent were a variety of other Chinese MA, and some students added or created other sets and weapons into their own WCK. It's not uncommon now to find branches there with nearly a dozen weapons (tiger fork, halbard, straight sword, etc.) and many, many empty hand sets. Interesting background information, sounds like a shaolin influence to me.
Originally posted by reneritchie
However, to what extent any of these forms reflect what is usually considered Foshan WCK, or whether or not they have any actual Shaolin connection, is debatable. Here you seem to be driving at something irrelevant to the topic. May I ask, do you have anything directly relevant to the Snake and Dragon aspect of this thread whom Red Tornado is asking? I'd like to know more about it as well.

Red Tornado,
I am not familiar with Vietnamese Wing Chun but from what I have learned, the interesting thing about Shaolin kung fu is that its essense cannot be found or traced by physical appearance. The Shaolin essense runs deeper than technique. The journey begins after the technique becomes a tool. Good luck in your kung fu journey.

[reneritchie]

I would be very eager to see any WCK family with a direct, evident connection to Shaolin.

Unfortunately, the Shaolin Encyclopedia did not show anything remotely similar to WCK. If you could please point me to any old Shaolin manuscripts (properly authenticated, of course) detailing the sequences and terminology found in WCK, I would appreciate it, and become a very vocal 'Shaolin' advocate.

(Note: I am still awaiting same from the Shaolin Kempo folks)

[Savi]

Originally posted by reneritchie
I would be very eager to see any WCK family with a direct, evident connection to Shaolin.

Unfortunately, the Shaolin Encyclopedia did not show anything remotely similar to WCK. If you could please point me to any old Shaolin manuscripts (properly authenticated, of course) detailing the sequences and terminology found in WCK, I would appreciate it, and become a very vocal 'Shaolin' advocate.

(Note: I am still awaiting same from the Shaolin Kempo folks) Oooohhhh.... first of all, I have to ask - not that I am even looking for you to be an advocate of another reality of WC other than your own:

1. Do you even know what Shaolin is?

2. If so, please explain.

3. If not, how can you draw any connection to that which you cannot identify with?

[Nick Forrer]

why do i get the feeling that this thread is soon going to degenerate into a slanging match with the usual parties on both sides and around 350 posts?

They say the definition of madness is to keep doing the same thing but to expect a different result each time............

[Savi]

Originally posted by Nick Forrer
why do i get the feeling that this thread is soon going to degenerate into a slanging match with the usual parties on both sides and around 350 posts?

They say the definition of madness is to keep doing the same thing but to expect a different result each time............ Nick,
I truly hope it doesn't this time. The reason I am asking him to answer the above questions is so I do not assume his understanding of the subject, and so I can hopefully provide what I can in a manner he can relate to. I'd like a better perspective on his understanding before providing my thoughts.

In other words, the ball is in his court.

[reneritchie]

No worries Nick. The way I look at it, if someone wants to claim WCK is from Shaolin or Wudang or Emei or Western Boxing or from the sunny streets of New Orleans, that's fine, but where's the evidence to support the claim? Before we get caught up in rhetoric or dissemblage, show the evidence (don't just talk about it, actually show it) and make your case. Everything else is redundant up to and until then.

(And this goes double for the Shaolin Temple Karate folks who wear Gi's and do Shotokan Kata ;) )

[kungfu cowboy]

I think the only safe bet is to claim that your art originated somewhere on the planet Earth. Hopefully there is no refuting that!

[reneritchie]

You anti-Martian-ite!!!!

[kungfu cowboy]

That is the secret mission for the Mars rover to uncover.

[planetwc]

As this thread isn't just between Rene and Savi, perhaps just assuming the lowest common denominator of "Shaolin Knowledge" or lack thereof would serve for everyone who might delve into this thread before it devolves into the usual slag fest.

That way everyone who reads it could follow along without assumptions being made about their backgrounds as well.

So, let's not have to present our Shaolin ID cards, prior to furthering the discussion.

I've often been curious about where the specific Shaolin aspects would be in mainstream Foshan/Guo Lo based Wing Chun.

For example are the platforms, principles of structure and movement, sets either supersets or subsets of mainstream Shaolin arts?

Say Diamond Fist form, or particular sets from Northern Shaolin?

I would also think that it is not just CURRENT day marketing (shaolin-do, shaolin kenpo, shaolin wing chun) to align one's group with Shaolin, reviewing the Tiandihui book, gives insight into just how prevalent a technique that was in terms of each secret societies "origin theory".

When a Shaolin stylist sees a Wing Chun stylist, does he think, yeah--that's a Shaolin system. Does a Wing Chun stylist when he sees a Shaolin stylist doing forms think, yeah thats Wing Chun!

anyway on with the discussion.

[canglong]

When a Shaolin stylist sees a Wing Chun stylist, does he think, yeah--that's a Shaolin system. Does a Wing Chun stylist when he sees a Shaolin stylist doing forms think, yeah thats Wing Chun! The learned practitioner will only see properly or improperly applied principles nothing more nothing less. For the record the Hung Fa Yi method (hou shun san sou and the philosophy of saam mo kiu) of training are the cornerstones of it's Shaolin heritidge which simply educates practitioners on how to best utilize these principles not just in martial endeavors but all aspects of one's life. Shaolin, Cha'n (Zen) or Tao none of these will come to you unless you are out there actively seeking them you want proof go find it otherwise stop deceiving yourself into believeing you will know it when you see it.

[redtornado]

:o :p :D Thanks for the Info and thought...

[reneritchie]

reviewing the Tiandihui book, gives insight into just how prevalent a technique that was in terms of each secret societies "origin theory".

Secret Societies Reconsidered pretty much obliterated that as well, pointing out how most Shaolin tales which form the basis for modern MA origins were derivitives from earlier Tang dynasty stories. In fact, most professional scholars, which enjoying the creation myths, seem to very quickly put them in their proper place, then move on to the real history.

[canglong]

Rene,
Savi's 3 questions are still on the table for you next time you care to continue this thread please don't hendrik the questions.

[kj]

Thanks for mentioning the text references, Dave and René. It's challenging for the lay person (like me) to locate relevant and reliable scholarly research, no less documented in English. "The Origins of the Tiandihui" in particular appears to be a highly referenced source by other researchers.

I just wish my reading list wasn't several lifetimes long. :/

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[planetwc]

Interesting.

So from a HFY perspective there is no similarity in the forms or the movements (between Shaolin arts and HFY) only the principles.

Can one infer that the principles are more about Chan and Tao and less about martial techniques then? Or is that too much of a stretch?

Or is it that from an HFY perspective the martial principles derive from Chan and Tao so much that you can't literally have one without the other?

One wonders how many of the other Shaolin martial systems have that same approach in teaching and training?


Originally posted by canglong
The learned practitioner will only see properly or improperly applied principles nothing more nothing less. For the record the Hung Fa Yi method (hou shun san sou and the philosophy of saam mo kiu) of training are the cornerstones of it's Shaolin heritidge which simply educates practitioners on how to best utilize these principles not just in martial endeavors but all aspects of one's life. Shaolin, Cha'n (Zen) or Tao none of these will come to you unless you are out there actively seeking them you want proof go find it otherwise stop deceiving yourself into believeing you will know it when you see it.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by planetwc


Can one infer that the principles are more about Chan and Tao and less about martial techniques then?




Imo,
up to now, there is no Chan practice shown but lots of claim which is clearly ideas derive from logical mind but not the type of nature from non duality.

Shao lin dont do Yuen Shan stuffs... the cultivation path is in contradiction. It will side tract the chan cultivation if Mix Yuen Shan stuffs to Chan.




I agree with Rene.

Compared the describtion to the history book of chinese secret society believe system,

it seems it is closer to the description of the secrete society way of thinking then true Shao Lin chan Buddhism way .

The believe sysyem is a mix of some Buddhist terms without indepth , Daoist, Confusious, and chinese folk believe .....

BTW. I dont critics others believe but trying to see how things fits.



Just some thoughts

[reneritchie]

No worries, KJ. There are several great, professional, scholarly books out there, all pretty much in agreement, which shed enormous light on the era.

I think if people could clearly separate their enjoyable and entertaining oral accounts from their verifiable histories, give both their proper respect, but not confuse the two, it would be to everyone's benefit.

[redtornado]

The ?? were are these forms like the 3 forms in Yip Man Forms? Are they close to eachother? Well there are alot of ?'s Too history ,,, i have found that there are well dotumented facts,, But are these forms not in the southern Shaolin Kung fu forms? I would like to see these forms also.......... To see how they are useful and ect.. Love kung fu
Please understand that I have no meaning to start any thing up!
I just found this Shaolin Wing Chun forms !!!
Does anybody know them???
Jeffrey Williams and thanks to you all for sharing Wing Chun..

[duende]

Red Tornado,

I have heard mention of the forms you are interested at a HFY seminar by a student named Suki. He had studied a verson of Saolin KF in london which had Chi Sao, and he mentioned some of the forms you are asking about.

I would suggest going to www.hfy108.com where he is a member and asking your question there.

As you have seen, their are certain individuals here who have no interest whatsoever in answering your question. Only interest in using your thread to promote their political agenda.

[reneritchie]

Red Tornado - No. In my experience, invariably when a system using the name WCK has more than the typical 3 sets, the other sets are different in kind from SN/LT, CK, or BJ. In most cases, they are village boxing sets (sets that were trained in the local village) or sets from other systems which have been added to or fuzed with WCK.

(Although in some cases, the fusion can make SN/LT, CK, & BJ look more like the other arts, but unless I'm mistaken, that wasn't the direction of your question?)

[Savi]

Originally posted by Phenix



Imo,
up to now, there is no Chan practice shown but lots of claim which is clearly ideas derive from logical mind but not the type of nature from non duality.

Shao lin dont do Yuen Shan stuffs... the cultivation path is in contradiction. It will side tract the chan cultivation if Mix Yuen Shan stuffs to Chan.




I agree with Rene.

Compared the describtion to the history book of chinese secret society believe system,

it seems it is closer to the description of the secrete society way of thinking then true Shao Lin chan Buddhism way .

The believe sysyem is a mix of some Buddhist terms without indepth , Daoist, Confusious, and chinese folk believe .....

BTW. I dont critics others believe but trying to see how things fits.



Just some thoughts Thanks for clarifying these are just YOUR opinions and thoughts. There is nothing wrong with that then...

[redtornado]

:) :D :p :)Good thanks for link!!!
I see that the Yip Man forms are three hand But Trying other forms and feelling them yourself... I'm still working on the three hands forms!! Now I see where these other forms come from... Cool!! Wing Chun Kuen , Shaolin, Ect.. They all have there forms to practise movement. Right!
Planet Wing Chun say's Only Principles are the same.
:cool: This has been a good!!!!!!!!!



Stay true to the Crue:p :p :p :p

[duende]

Red Tornado,

You'll find more and more that the number 3 is important throughout Saolin learning methodologies. This is due to Saam Mo Kiu concept or three connecting bridge concept. Wandering, Awareness, and focus are consistenly utilized as ways of enlightening students to the nature of the system. Very different than reading a chapter from a book, and then taking a test on that chapter. Often such knowledge acquired that way is only temporary, and soon forgotten.

Glad to be of help.

[redtornado]

Thanks everyone that has been great<,,,, Now lets meditate Wing chun ------------------------------------------------------------------------kung fu :D :p ;) :D :eek: :rolleyes: :confused: :o

[redtornado]

Hello, David How are you? Thanks for putting out there that this forum is about the ??? I am new to this forum but i have noticed the small circles in it!! David I have read some of your writings and they are great.. If you like we should write more?
I see Shaolin Wing Chun, Yip Man Wing Chun, Moy Yat Ving Tsun, they all have there forms and they follow shaolin pric. O.k any more




jeff williams Red Tornado