Your Ranking System

[DeathTouch]

What is the ranking system like in your kwoon, I would like to know just basically how many levels does your school have and how long does it take to become at least instructor level(not a sifu) but at least instructor level.

I''ll start off in my kwoon it takes at least 6 years to become an instructor and you must be over 18. And After Instructor it takes at least another 10 to 12 to be considered a sifu.

[David Jamieson]

That sounds about par for the course.

Takes about 3-5 years to learn the material, unless your system is more than one style and has a lot a lot of material.

Takes about another 5 years after that to get decent at it and it takes likely another 5 years to master that material which you know.

so 15 - 20 years before you could actually take on the responsibility of being a sifu is not out of the question.

Of course, this is not always the case, some systems are smaller and do not take as long to learn the body of material ergo the timeline is shortened.

people have different standards for sifuhood too.

some hold to it that you cannot be a sifu until your sifu says you can be a sifu. In all fairness and in context to the system you are learning, this is correct.

some hold to it that you are a sifu if you instruct, even in the same school! There are lots of schools that have more than one sifu.

Trouble is there aren't any across the board standards for TCMA.
Even though there are many similarities that bridge styles this has not been achieved yet.

Not for lack of trying mind you, but it seems that as soon as someone starts a board or a federation another one pops up that is contradictory or not in the same line of thinking as the first one.

Cheers

[Shaolinlueb]

I dont believe in ranking systems. depending on how long a student has come and progressed is their skill level. i've seen sifu's make some one look like black belt material in 12 months, but that is also ahrd work from the student. he would be doing spear exercises and his technique and power would send the tip off and through windows sometimes.

[Toby]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
some hold to it that you cannot be a sifu until your sifu says you can be a sifu. In all fairness and in context to the system you are learning, this is correct.

some hold to it that you are a sifu if you instruct, even in the same school! There are lots of schools that have more than one sifu.
Pretty much how we have it. We've got some students who are at sifu level. Our main teacher we call "sigung" out of respect because he has spawned a lot of sifu-level students and because he is the keeper of a system. That's just a habit everyone is in, although he is strictly speaking just sifu. His wife is called simo, so that reflects his being sifu. We have a lot of students who help out with teaching, but are not sifus, just sihing. We have a few who are called sisuk to reflect their experience and that they have trained alongside sigung under his teachers. AFAIK, not a single one of the sifu-level students has left to teach on their own. All stay in the school. Our most senior (active) student has been going (I think) 18 years. Another has been going 6 years full time, 6 days a week, 10 hours a day. There are other more senior students who aren't active any more.

[Ironwind]

Instructor and student.
The way it should be.
With additional students depending on hard each student trains it would be determined by time.
But it's not a school yet it's more like a organized gathering, where I practice and learn.
I am nearing the end of the training sequence and soon will know all I need to.
Just 4 more years and I'll be at the knowledge level of my teacher but only more time can make me as good as he is.

[Shaolin Dude]

in my school we have 3 levels. when you're here for a year, you will be in level 2. 2 years will be in level 3. that's the highest level. it takes about 3-4 years to become an assistant instructor.

[Gold Horse Dragon]

If you are in a traditional kwoon, rank is based on the family system where Sifu is father/teacher and classmates are older and younger brothers and sisters. The oldest brother would be Dai Sihing (big brother). So...there is only one Sifu in a school. Now if the Sifu decides to semi-retire, he will appoint someone (most likely Dai Sihing as Sifu). Because Sifu is only semi-retired, he will still maintain an acitive role in the kwoon...in which case he is referred to as Sigung (grandfather/teacher) by all students except the senior student appointed to Sifu who will still refer to him as Sifu. Even if he does not maintain an active role, he is still referred to as Sigung by the students of the appointed older brother as Sifu. If he appoints someone as Sifu and tells them to open another kwoon somewhere he is Sigung to the appointed Sifu's students, but Sifu to his own students and still Sifu to the appointed older brother. This is based on the Confuscian standard of the family.
In our system (Hak Fu Pai) it takes at least 5 years but more realistically about 7 to 8 years just to learn all the sets. Then another 3 to 5 years to learn all the intricate details. Also is the dit dar to learn at some point. Of course attitude such as loyalty and respect are an overiding factor to learning anything or even remaining in the kwoon.

GHD

[DeathTouch]

Hey GHD, thanks for the info by the way you said you study hak fu pai, i think that stands for black tiger system. Who is your sifu if i may ask just out of curiosity

[stimulant]

our ranking system is not based on ability, but rather an academy system. Gradings take place every 4 months or so for junior grades and yearly or longer for senior grades.

As a result we have maybe 1 or 2 senior grades who are crap, but conversly some junior grades who are very good. Shifu does not believe in disallowing someone to grade because they are bad (often as a result of natural inability!), as it means they will be stuck learning the same thing over and over again.

the most senior students help out in class, but none have a class of their own (and probably wont for a long time).

The system does work, but I personally would be in favour of a pass fail system.

[norther practitioner]

Beginner, Intermediate, and Advanced


depending on how you progress, 1-3 years in beg.
3-6 years intermed
6+ in advanced...
Once you know (emphasis on the word know) the beg. sets you start helping others with them...etc.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by stimulant
our ranking system is not based on ability, but rather an academy system. Gradings take place every 4 months or so for junior grades and yearly or longer for senior grades.

As a result we have maybe 1 or 2 senior grades who are crap, but conversly some junior grades who are very good. Shifu does not believe in disallowing someone to grade because they are bad (often as a result of natural inability!), as it means they will be stuck learning the same thing over and over again.

the most senior students help out in class, but none have a class of their own (and probably wont for a long time).

The system does work, but I personally would be in favour of a pass fail system.

What is the point of having a grading system if you never fail anyone?

[Shaolinlueb]

about how many forms do you msot senior student black sashes have?

[stimulant]

well with lots of students having a grading system makes it easier for the shifu to know who is learning what. The grading system is not for others to see how good someone is. If grading is based on ability then why not get your first black sash / belt and then go to every other school and grade almost right away as you should the ability already (howbeit in a different style).

Pass and fail only occurs at senior levels.

how many forms...hmm....most black sashes have about (a quick count) minimum 7 forms plus tan tui (but can be a lot more forms depending if they go to seminars and competitions) senior black belts usually know about 13 forms minimum. usually one form per grade (except first grade - tan tui 1-5, 2nd grade tan tui 6-10 plus little / young shaolin fist), with gradings being every 4 months, up to brown, then three forms (including weapons and trwo man forms) per grade with gradings being yearly or longer.

the first form is very short, the 3rd one quite short and the rest are very long. For example, Qing Ping Jian 1st form (there are 6 Qing Ping forms) has about 60-63 movements...but each move may actually be 2-5 movemnts long!


we just have a new website up...its still work in prgress....you can ask questions in your forum there and also read about Lu shifu and his father and the Mizong Quan (lost track boxing) style there.

go to www.zhenwei.org

Lu Shifu knows some 140+ forms so always lots to learn and train.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by stimulant
well with lots of students having a grading system makes it easier for the shifu to know who is learning what. The grading system is not for others to see how good someone is. If grading is based on ability then why not get your first black sash / belt and then go to every other school and grade almost right away as you should the ability already (howbeit in a different style).

Pass and fail only occurs at senior levels.

<snip>.

OK, fair enough. However a grading system based on ability (or merit) would not qualify you to grade in other systems as that grade is for the system you graded in - kinda like how a Bachelor of Engineering doesn't qualify you to receive a Bachelor of Economics.

I guess it is in the way your school views grading. If it is a way for your teacher to group people with a similar level of learning then fair enough. However if people need to go through a test to advance their grading, then I would see it as merit-based. In that case, it is pointless having the system if you are never going to fail anyone.

[stimulant]

What is quite strange is that the system works in most cases with there only being a handful of students in total who are not good. The main draw back is that many students learn their current forms and then forget ones they learned in the past (very annoying for us seniors who have to re-teach them!).

what is good though is that we have very good success in competitions (baltimore international koushu, British council for chinese martial arts national competiton, and the world Koushu championships in brazil) for forms....especially as the longest student (me!) has been going for only 4.5 years (since Lu shifu came over from china.

[Shaolinlueb]

our sifu wants at least 10 hand forms and 5 weapon forms for black sash and wont even consider it until they are perfect.

[norther practitioner]

about how many forms do you msot senior student black sashes have?

Minimum 8 empty hands, 6 or 7 weapon forms..


We have 16 forms in our core curriculmn, however, shirfu knows many, many more. So he'll teach you some depending on what type of gong fu you like, etc. A good example would be our Pao Chuan.. One form is in the core curriculmn, however he knows three or four Pao chuan forms.

[CaptinPickAxe]

I'm required to put in at least a year as a white belt. 2 as green. 2 as blue. Then it all depends on how quickly you progress after that. So, I have to put in a minimum of 5 years to be a black belt, but that would mean I'm a prodigy and probably could kill everyone with my stare alone.

[MasterKiller]

about how many forms do you msot senior student black sashes have? You need 12 open hand sets + 12 line Tan Tui + 1 two-man open hand set + 3 weapons sets + 1 group weapon set (two vs 1; 3 vs 1) to reach assistant instuctor level (Black Sash).

I know about 17 open hand sets (and tan tui), 13 individual weapon sets and 3 group weapon sets.

[stimulant]

at a rough count I know.....


9.5 empty hand forms

6 weapons forms

and 10 line tan tui