What Other WC Lineages Interest You?

[JAFO]

Before anyone gets intense or emotional on this - I'm only seeking positive comments in this thread. I have no political agenda on this and I'd hate to see it turn out to be some massive slam-fest.

It's always interesting to hear the different Wing Chun lineages that people come from, and I anticipate most MA practitioners have a personal bias toward their own style and their own lineage within that style. You would almost have to question why anyone would continue with a style or a Sifu they didn't favor. Those biases are what make individuals, and contribute to making a chat board like this interesting. I also think that sometimes you can learn something new and interesting by finding out what interests others.


So what I'd like to ask is this:

Of Wing Chun lineages other than the one you directly trace as your own, which do you find the interesting or impressive, and why?

Other than your own lineage, which of the Yip Map - descended lineages do you like to watch, and which of the many other non-Yip Map lineages interest you?

Other than the MA styles you have actively studied either currently or in the past, which non-WC styles interest you?

[WCis4me]

Other Yip Man Lineages:
WSL, Ho Kam Ming. From my limited experience I see more quality WC practitioners and more openness to other lineages/styles/sharing from these schools. Of course my exposure is somewhat limited so this opinion is strictly from what I have observed so far.

Other MA styles:
I recently watched a series on Canadian History Television entitled "Deadly Arts" There were several impressive performances but I have to say that the Karate one both caught me off-guard and captivated me. I expected the usual of what I have seen from various Karate schools. This was so different. I had thought that Karate was a japanese art, I didn't realize the strong chinese art influence of its origins. The hour long show focused on the original Okinawan form of Karate and it was remarkable to see the similarities to WC and the impressiveness of it.

Here is a portion of the write up. It says it so much better than I could:

"It seems to take a collective effort of will on the part of the onlookers to realize that the old master is not fighting any tangible opponent, so convincing and powerful are his movements, so violent the strikes. His traditional choreographed form, or kata, now finished, he turns to his students to see if they have understood the power, technique and deadly martial purpose of his performance, which to the innocent spectator might have appeared as no more than the powerful, elegant movements of a traditional dance.

This is the original Okinawan form of the martial art known throughout the world as Karate. Born out of the Okinawans' fierce determination to preserve their way of life during centuries of occupation by foreign armies, and heavily influenced by the Chinese martial arts, Karate has since become popular throughout the main islands of Japan and the rest of the world. "

http://www.historytelevision.ca/archives/
Go to 'deadly arts' link under ancient history

Other non WC arts I like to watch/have an interest in are:
Tai Chi and Praying Mantis. They are smooth yet powerful and effective.

[reneritchie]

All of them and none of them. I enjoy seeing all the little differences in interpretation, but in the end, they all work off the same core so rather than simply 'collect' different variations for display sake, I prefer work at better understanding and expressing that core and will try to learn from individuals (lineage regardless) who will help me attain that, rather than just pile on more and more material.

[Gangsterfist]

I study the Yip Man lineage. My sifu has showed the different forms in the Yip Man line. My exact lineage is Yip Man to Ho Kam ming to Randy Li to my sifu. The other forms of Yip Man lineage that are not exactly what we learn are similar but more external. My sifu will teach them after a person has learned ours and if you are willing to learn them.

Hung Fai Yi Lineage perks my intrest because its quite different. From what I read they don't use the YJKJM, their high horse stance has their feet pointed straight (instead of pigeon toed). They also use different foot work. This is just what I read, and I am not sure how correct it is.

[PaulH]

Well, Hendrikchun fascinates me, I could listen to it for hours!

[canglong]

What is most fascinating if you get to take advantage of the opportunity once they present themselves are conversation and instruction from a Grandmaster of any and all system/styles. The deeper knowledge and wisdom obviously is and will continue to be the most intriguing part of any system/style.

[PaulH]

The chics must be crazy! One can always learn somethings valuable from the old birds who have accumulated a respectable wealth of knowledge and experience in their lifetime. I guess that's why I can listen easily to (Ahem!) my Sifu, other grandmasters, O' Hendrik, Ode to Joy. etc. I keep looking out for that fantastic shortcut that they must know by now though it maybe too late for them to do anything about it. Hope they are not such a tight wad about the secret!

Regards,
PH

[Gangsterfist]

Taiji also intrests me as well so I started cross training in it a while ago. I study Yang family Taiji. It is very interesting and very different from WC. WC does not have ward off, pull back, or retreating in it, and Taiji does. Eventually I would like to blend my Wing Chun with a few other styles such as taiji, karate (I actually took 3yrs of Ryukyu Kempo which is an okinawan karate), and some form of grappling like judo or jujutsu.

[foolinthedeck]

wing chun - all of them
peter ralston
and, hendrikchun or wing phenix.. either, sounds amaaaazzzzingg!

[Sam]

Fut Sao ( Buddha Hand ) Wing Chun Kuen is internally based utilizing body linkage, torque power, Hei / Nei gung breathing. Fut Sao also contains Siu Baat Gua (eight direction footwork) which utilizes body evasion, stealth movements, and linear & circular hand & foot techniques http://futsaoyongchunkuen.com/

[Phenix]

Pual, foolinthedeck,

ok.

Ready for this. My most update top secret :D




ON Wing Phenix's SIU LIEN TAU
---------------------------------------



Physical and force:

When relaxing is issuing energy.
When streching is gathering energy.
How fun that can be?
Not logical but it is so logical.



Mind and ideas:

When not thinking is witnessing all
When new idea is the combination of olds elements
Who said mind is everything?
Can one picture a future not yet borned baby's face?



Energy handling:

When Intention by passed Thought and ideas
When light has no different to water
There one handling the energy
Be it reiki or be it qi.


Chan:

When subjective thinker become an objective
When unlimited means not attach to any concept
Reverse the hearing to hear the self nature
How easy is that?


Zhong ( center):

When the vertical line return to the center
When the center is true emptiness
It is not about win or lost
There is no one to defeat
Make sure in every move Ying and yang doesnt go exessive
Make sure the resultant force balance up
But balance doesnt mean equal in propotion.
WingChun has no kiu sau or head butt or Tan Sau
Just an art to naturaly return to Zhong.
Simple right?
But it can have every kiu sau or head butt or Tan Sau in the instant one needs.
Life is a paradox
and that is the beauty when one set oneself with one mission to return to Zhong





Crane and Snake:

Crane suppose to stand between heaven and earth
Snake suppose to coil on the floor
who are you?
Crane or snake.
Choose one only at one time.


Gap:

Wave is from water
Wave will return to water
Big wave return in longer time.
Water is all around
Water is water.
wave is water
Why persive wave is not water?
Sound and gaps between sound are both from silence.
Silence is everywhere within Sound and Gap.


The first:

This will be the first Wacky idea
which all WCners laught about
or the first philosphy
which influence all WCners in the coming era.
who says
Spiritual, Mind, and Body.
is not one for all
and all for one?

I am the first hahahhaha.
No matter what.
first on Wacky thinking
first on philosophy
Or
first in what a joke! :D

(Rene cannot remove me from his history documentation. I am the first no matter what :D)

[yuanfen]

Gangsterfist sez re wc and taiji:
It is very interesting and very different from WC. WC does not have ward off, pull back, or retreating in it, and Taiji does
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Words! The structures and mechanics of wc and taiji are different-
BUT wing chun can perform the same FUNCTIONS effectively.
FWIW AND IMO and the other disclaimers.
Staying the wing chun path trains the artist for adjusting to the function on hand...and is a source of creative individuality...with time and experience.

[reneritchie]

Hendrik -

No, but I can call your wife and ask her to change your password, darnit! :p

[Phenix]

Rene,

Ok ok you Win :p
But I am still the first who fear wife

First no matter what. hahaha:p

[PaulH]

I am still mulling over that stretching is storing of energy part. I understand when you stretch you expend energy, so stretching makes room to gather the energy in but it is not the process of energy storing as your words seem to imply. My verdict: Not logical! Ha! Ha!

Okay, you really got me speechless on mind and ideas.

So the center is true emptiness. It makes sense in the WC way as one tries in vain to chase center against some highly skilled people.

The rest are Hendrik's 32 variations on the theme of "The One"! Classical Hendrikana of the new from the old!

Got to run! My parents are expecting me home by now. It's a long drive, but I'm happy that I got a chance to see more of Hendrikana. Big thank you!

Regards,
PH

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
I am still mulling over that stretching is storing of energy part. I understand when you stretch you expend energy,
so stretching makes room to gather the energy in but it is not the process of energy storing as your words seem to imply. My verdict: Not logical! Ha! Ha!




Pual,

As it said, storing energy is similar to expand the bow. releasing energy is similar to release the bow. Effortless.

Those cannot resist an in rush to keep thier center because they always extend, expand, without zhong in body and mind , trying to resist oppose the incoming in rush.
they broke thier own balance , they cannot return to the center. their body and mind work in oppotition against zhong,
They try to speed it up ....
and there is so much fear.....
They feel lost control....
They rush, fast fast fast... and always tooo slow...

That is not Zhong but driving one's body and mind to the extreme imbalance trying to knock down others or resist others.

How can such art return to Zhong and having peace?
Or that is an act of damaging oneself to damaging others.
That is not WCK.

Spring dont damaging oneself to damage others. Spring grows others------- such as the art of Osense

No fix technics but return to zhong. That is spring that is WCK.
May be all of these 70years we all have practice it opposite to how it supposed to be practiced.

What if Bruce Lee is on the different path , he practiced extreme but not zhong?


hahaha



you take care of spiritual/ mind/body's zhong.
and zhong take care of you.
Spiritual/mind/body become one with zhong. opponent and oneself function as unity with zhong. That is going down to the street of non duality ---Zhong.

This is wacky thinking right? :p

Watch out I am going to dope you and shift the world with The above concept...Instead of thinking why you get take down. think do you with Zhong in the first place.

Remember the old saying "WCK with short brigde good in guarding"

Why?

Guarding the Zhong. But do we still practice this guarding Zhong? or we have forgot . forgot who we are? where we from? going out to extreme,going out counting how many kiu saus how many key words....distracted... instead of Guarding Spriritual/mind/body's zhong?

See, Still platform is about Zhong. Guard the Zhong and tremendous power will be generated.


It is said SLT is the femine art at the redboat period.
Why so? What does it means?
Femine means mother, the source of creation.
Thus, there is no two SLT but only one, since there is only one Zhong.
Thus, there is no equavalent to other sets from other sysyem of Red boat because there is only one mother----Zhong.




... ommmmmm hahaha hummmmm.


Wacky thought in a lazy spring day noon time. Zhong hahahaha

[PaulH]

What you call Zhong I find its parallels in maintaining balance in action or non-committment in the weekly kwoon's training classes. So it is not wacky at all. Interestingly there was also a stimulating article by Patrick Gordon who mentioned something similar in the zero point concept in the December issue of IKF. Of course, you are still my favorite undisputed commentator! Ha! Ha! Thanks again.

Regards,

PH

[cha kuen]

I like watching a few lineages...Lok Yiu, Tsui Seung Tin and Leung Sheung.

Three men that were apart of Yip Man's core students and no doubt to that. I've also seen a couple people here n there that are yip man students at the VTAA tea meetings that looked good.

But that's just me.

[yuanfen]

Hendrik sez-
No fix technics but return to zhong. That is spring that is WCK.
May be all of these 70years we all have practice it opposite to how it supposed to be practiced
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe? maybe not.. depends on who what when where IMO.

Many intuitive concepts are hard to understand by some-
but it's a big world.
Hendrik--- a question---in your mind thus far--- how do you connect the fukien and the emei crane-snake components?

In migration of key people from fukien to emei? Other?

BTW- there can be and probably are different approaches to zhong.
IMO-that is why stance training is important--- without proper alignments-bad structure gets in the way. Taiji and wing chun
approaches to zhong differ-but both can approach zhong.
Wing chun is more effective for fighting.... all things being equal...
which is not always the case... number one in one system (hypothetically)meeting number 20 in another versus the reverse can have different outcomes imo(always)..

Joy

[Phenix]

Joy,

IMHO,

I look at it from a few different angles:


1,

According to the writtern record from Cho family, ( and it is closed to YSK's )

NG Mui taught Miu Soon in Kui Lin while She travel there.
Miu Soon then create his own version.
Yim Yee, doesnt know what he was taught is the creation of Miu Soon. Yim Yee taught it was White Crane from Ng Mui.

Only before Miu Soon past away, Miu Soon reveal his creation look like White Crane but different.


Later, Bok Lau beg Yim Yee to be his sifu. At that time Yim was quite old, at his sixty and no one knows he is good at kungfu. Yim at this time live in Kui County and open a tofu shop. So, it seems that some how, every one meet at Kui Lin area and SLT was design there probably. Kui Ling has very good scene.


From this, I look at it as, WCK or at that time it was called Siu Lien Tau system according to Miu Soon like to call it. Is a private invention. Joe from the east cost meets bob from San Jose,,, and bob work for Cisco....and Joe teaches in MIT..... stories goes on with doing project in garage...... It is not mean for flamboyant showing off. It has nothing todo with killing Qing...

(and ofcause, later when I found out that the emei 12 post has a tradition of ---- can only passed to one monk per generation in the goldern summit temple of Emei. it becomes clear that why Miu Soon keep his mouth shut. Because he is leaking information and breaking the temple tradition --- He create something called SLT with his confidential information.

As we know today, there is 9 progessive level of mind/body training in 12 Zhuang which is accord to the stillness or samadhi states.
By the way, the emei 12 zhuang has ground work, not the same as BJJ, but it does go to ground, rolls on ground....ect , It even has hand stand at advance state when one can reverse the qi flow.....)


2.

From the history of China, Since the begining of Qing dynasty,
There are 3 generals of Ming converted to Qing King. the 3 kings with thier army reside in the South China. with Fujian and Kwan Xi, Sze Chuan area... namely the Wu San-Kui and Keng Ching-zhong.

In addition, One can today check about the name of the Tong head of the Hung Mun in Kwan Xi, Fujian..... in 1800. to observe a part of travelling situation.....ect I got the book on this published by the Taiwan Hung Mun association. Bought years ago in book store.


Thus, there is no suprise for the business and travel from Fujian to Sze Chuan..back and forth... for herb, salt,... business.....

If NG Mui is Fang Chieh-Niang herself, then there is no suprise she was possible to travel to Kui Lin. If Ng Mui is the third or fourth generation White Crane master after Fang Chieh-Niang, Then, there was no suprise for them to travel in Emperor Chien Long's era because that is the time China is peace for many decades.




Thus, my conclusion is. SLT is a great art even it has no flamboyant "Hong Kong shaw's brother movie killing , burning temple, and revenging" . but invented by probably a buddhist cultivator or may be kind of healer or mystic monk today. And, Yim Yee also is not a type of flamboyant people but quitely cultivating his martial art. A conservative type of people.

So, it is an ordinary story which might bored and disappointed some. But, it is a pice of art as piccaso or van goh's art. A great art is a great art, doesnt matter where it from, palace or village or garage.


-----------------------

Then, the real flamboyat incident comes, that is when the art got to the red boat with all those Opera singer such as Lee Man Mau.
See, Lee is a White Crane practitioner, if I am not wrong, and it makes sense that BOk Lau, Wing Chun ect hang around with those people. Chinese is not very friendly toward other people from other state. Chinese at that time is very tribal-- Fujian is Fujian, Canton... different tribe..... But, when they know they are from one school White Crane, that tribal link link them up. Not to mention, the Kuit I have some of them certainly is in Fujian. So, the White Crane connection or White Crane tribal power is in action in Red Boat to a large degree.


--------------------------

People talk about modified WCK, adapting WCK, marketing WCK. Honestly, I dont see a problem. See, Miu Soon is modifying his White Crane or Emei 12 Zhuang right? Those in the red boat opera is Marketing their art too right? otherwise how come we have so many great stories? and now we get screw with some of them. :D

If we cannot accept the modification, adapting, markerting.... then we are hypocrates because the ancestors were doing it.
The rule of physical world is grow or vanished. I believe Miu Soon knows more than me about Spiritual and physical grow, otherwise he will not be thought the 12 zhuang. That shows he was some body high position related to the temple.


Now, people might then question why the heck is Hendrik constantly annoyingly bring up root , root , root.... Honestly, I am not looking for ORIGINAL. because ORIGINAL doesnt exist. Ask Miu Soon what is ORIGINAL? Ask Those from the Red Boat what is ORIGINAL means? Ask Yik Kam what is ORIGINAL? Now, my concern is ----- without a proper in dept understanding of what SLT do and is capable of. We dont know what is it, what is it's limitation, what is its capabilities. We want to find out WHAT IS SLT.

I arque big time with some GM of other Style about SLT is not equavalent. Why? For myself , I careless about those. Anyone can claim anything, one can train SLT similar to Iron wire or Shao Lin or.... anything, it is a free world.

What I care is if the root being Screw up. Who are we? If we can't even sustain an inrush ... how can that be WCK as describe " great in neutralized incoming force, neutralization and attack in the same instant?" One want to contiously widern one's stance to take the inrush power? because one see no way in the YJKYM? If SLT has become a useless riture then might as well get rid of it.

Ofcause people can think anyway they choose. But, as a WCner, Not a GM, I believe we have responsibility to tell the truth. everyone, anyone. Is it or is it not. Not to say or fantasying WCK is omni super....
Nothing in the world is perfect. If WCK can do something, we better say it. If WCK cannot do something and it is in the edge of losing it. We better say it. Or else WCK dry up and die.


Who is perfect? But, I believe everyone, every lineage has a pice of good thing, we all can treasure.

Say even HFY who some might think I am always argueing... ect, I think it is great that they create fomulars,,, flow chart, good for the starters to learn with more structure teaching like TKD....
There is no suprise some loves it because it is structure and clear. That is the good part. good for grow. See.

But, Fomulars flow charts way have limitations, it cannot lead into the advance art.
There is a saying, "if you copy me your art die." In Chinese martial art circle on how sifu warn thier students. Check it out.

--------------------------------

Not to mention in Chan --- Mind is only a part of reality; and how is one grasp that reality if one doesnt attain that state. Formular doesnt work, Space and time doesnt work there because time, space,.... is within the mind, and mind is only a part of reality Not all. Chan is everything but not attach to anything. attaching to method is called Dharma attachment. attaching to self is called self attachment. Chan has to break this two attachment.

Dont believe me? ask oneself, can one plan everything one will do from morning to night like a robot for tomorrow? including which car one will see in the high way....ect. But we can see yesterday clealy and precisely. right? But we cant live in yesterday which we know it all. we can only live in the now where we dont know it all, but live.
That is the paradigm of non dual. There is no concern of enlightement or not because one live in Non-dual.
It is not about getting enligtement. It is about not dragging on yesterday, dragging on what has been done which cannot be changed and cannot be live in the same condition again. It is not about fantasying tomorrow Diaz will visit me. live NOW.

Go live and learn with some great masters in art or spiritual , and see if they go with structure or they are so un organized non structure, keeping changing.....

but there is something within thier work within them. Those are their styles...thier way .. their Dao..... Until one has one's own style within, how can one called oneself GM?

------------------------------



Get real living in NOW or else we all are living in idealistic fantay.


Can I be wrong? Sure, take what can make you grow and left those what I am wrong about. I am just human, it will be great if I can be right 60%. Just 60% and I am happy. because my mind is only a part of reality right? :D

Just Some very wacky thought.

[yuanfen]

Thanks for the interesting thesis Hendrik.Have not digested it yet.
Dont know all the names...Yim Yee etc. The individuals cooperation and creation makes more senses than a battlefield creation. Thanks ...Joy

[Phenix]

Joy,

hahaha. I know some how I keep type and type. hahaha.

Yim Yee is Yim WingChun's father.

[yuanfen]

Thanks for the interesting thesis Hendrik.Have not digested it yet.
Dont know all the names...Yim Yee etc. The individuals cooperation and creation makes more senses than a battlefield creation. Clear enough on the snake and crane- but I am still fuzzy after that- though your post is interesting. Thanks ...Joy

[Phenix]

Joy,

Snake and crane are another stuffs. I can show you about Snake and how to activate the meridians with your starting move in Biu Jee. You will feel it right a way....

That is another long post. hhahahaaha. I spare you for today from my wacky thougts.

[Gangsterfist]

Hendrik, lol you should just write a book man.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
Hendrik, lol you should just write a book man.


Take what I have post in this forum and copile it. it becomes abook. May be KFO can do an article with the pictures from emai and white crane.... post

I dont write book. I share ---- free

[Ernie]

lineages ,
mean nothing to me , i only look at individuals , there are many individuals i would like to train with and talk with . free thinkers that take responsibility for there own growth and don't latch on to some one elses fame or lineage ,
find me those people and i would enjoy the chance to trade energy .

individuals on this forum i would like to meet , well you know who you are ha ha