robert Smith thread

[daohong]

I was very surprised to see all the posts about Robert Smith. Of course he is opinionated a little but why are so many threatened by what he has to say? Because He went to taiwan and you didn't? "Travels" sure is a pushy fellow.

[PHILBERT]

Keep in mind that the thread you speak of had been around for a month before I locked it. Even 2 posts a day would bring it to 67 posts (not counting those I deleted).

And there IS a reason it was locked. It started off bad, turned good then returned to bad.

[daohong]

Oh, I see. Thanks for pointing that out... I overlooked the length it was on. I normally read the internal art threads about once a month when I have time. Most other times I am reading the PM threads. Still, I wonder why it went bad on this one. It says something i think....

[PHILBERT]

People have opinions. I was going to axe the thread as soon as I read the title, but, surprisingly, I noticed some people steered it away from bashing Smith into constructed criticism, which is fine by me. But people quickly began dissing him again without ever meeting him, much less touching hands with him, and said he sucked.

That's like me going to a grappling board and saying Royce Gracie sucks, or a Judo board and saying Kano sucks. I can't have an opinion because I have never met either of them (and in the latter never will meet).

I have no problem if someone says "I do not like his book because such and such, or I have studied with him and he was not a good teacher, I've seen him fight and he lacks skill" and so on. It's the "He sucks cause he only studied the arts for 10 years" that made me close it.

[Mark M]

A few years back there was a article in Asian Journal about Smith. He said that Yang Chen Fu's postures were wrong in photos that had been published and that I am sure many of us have seen. Smith's reason for this was because "Yang Chen Fu was nervous about being photographed." It was enough for me to be turned off by him completely. My teacher was a student of Yang Chen Fu, our postures are exactly like the photos.I found these comments in the Asian Journal to be completely false, misleading and insulting. I haven't been on this forum for sometime I don't know if this thread is closed or not . If it is I apologize. Mark

[MonkeySlap Too]

No, it's not like saying Royce Gracie sucks, it's like saying somebody with moderate or no skill, and good writing skills suck. Big difference.

Smith is an entertaining writer, but his personal predujices and limitations get turned into propganda for his POV.

Typical in CMA really. Nontheless, despite his distortions and limitations, he did get some positive word out in CMA, so he deserves his place in the sun. Just don't take his opinions too seriously.

No, I have not met him, but I've encountered plenty who have. And one does not need to meet a person when you know what is written on the page is incorrect. History will probably be a little hard on this guy, but hey, he's the one who rewrites it to fit his agenda.

[GeneChing]

Now let's not start that again...:rolleyes:

I think what surprises me about the whole Robert Smith thread was how virulent some of his detrators are. Such is the burden of all martial arts writers - I certainly have sympathy for that. Martial artists can be like catty debutantes, sometimes. To quote Scoop Nisker, "if you don't like the news, go out and make some of your own."

Good call on the lock down Philbert. Looks like you might have to keep your finger on that button and do it again soon. :eek:

[PHILBERT]

MonkeySlap Too, yeah, one can tell when something on the page is incorrect, unless of course lineage comes into the picture (and not gonna do a lineage war here). Look at it this way, if someone throws a punch, a hook, different styles of Karate would do a different technique to counter that punch, correct? Does that mean one style is right and the other is wrong?

In Wing Chun, it is the same. At my old Wing Tsun school, if your left guard was up and someone threw a right round punch towards your left side, they said to use the left hand to punch them and the right hand to do an inside pak sau to "slap" the opponents punch. If it was a tight hook, a REAL hook, we did this one technique, can't recall the name, but you raised your arm at a 45 degree angle somewhat to the side to block it.

At my current school, we use a tan sau (I find describing a tan sau best as holding a pizza box at your shoulder height in front of you) to block that punch, and punch with the BACK hand instead of the FRONT hand. I find using the tan sau is a little bit more effective than using the pak sau, because it is less likely to slip. Each style of Wing Chun seems to have different ways to defend against attacks, and different foot work patterns. Does it mean that my school is right in defending and my old school was wrong? No, it just means we have a different way of doing our thing. The core of Wing Chun is the same, the philosophy is the same, but the minor things are the difference.

Now I am not an internal arts practioner, but I'm willing to bet a nice shiny nickel that different styles of Bagua or Hsing-I, no matter if the core is the same, will have minor differences in foot work or ways to defend against certain techniques. Just because in the book it shows him doing something different does not always mean his way can not defend against an attack.

Gene, yeah, but with any luck this thread just might die like normal before I have to lock it.

[backbreaker]

And there are different variations of the same technique.

[Ray Pina]

Did Smith write The Way of the Warrior, by Gilbely or something like that? I finally picked it up. Been heavy into Lit. (Hemmingway, Celine, Miller) and needed a break. I skimmed through it and it seems like an interesting book and the style is not unlike his.

I'm sure there's been debates over if its true or not. I don't care. Just want some martial-related light reading. Chronlicles of Tai by the way was very good in my opinion.

[Rockwood]

Evo-Fist-

Yep, Way of a Warrior and Western Boxing & World Wrestling by John Gilbey are allby Mr. Smith.

WoaW is meant to be humorous, but WBWW is a serious piece, it's by far the better of the two.

-Jess O

[Buddy]

Philbert,
I thought this thread would die as well. Here's the thing. Apart from Smith slagging well known martial artists in a disguised manner (and I think that behavior speaks for itself) he allegedly demonstates Gao style Baguazhang in his book. Not only do I study the same system but from the same lineage. So it's not a minor difference of footwork, what he shows is a very bad rendition of Gaoshi Baguazhang. While I still respect the man for his somewhat entertaining writing style and for introducing a generation of martial arts to the Neijia styles, his rendition of the style I learn is abyssmal.
Buddy

[BAI HE]

My stand on Smith was that could he actually understand what he was "seeing". Clearly his PaKua book shows this.

He slung a lot of **** and wound up with a little on his own shoes.
You ask "how can we defame such luminaries without touching hands?"

It was good enough for Smith. He marginalized a few good boxers in his book.
Especially Chang Dong Shen of SC fame. Other than Smith's account, I have heard nothing but awe and admiration for GM Chang's skill. Smith's account just doesn't jive. Contact John Wang at Emptyflower if you want to know anything about GM Chang.

As far as Smith's assessment of Hong YiXiang as being an uncouth brute?

Go to www.yizongmen.com and read the post "Hong Yixiang" . There in lies an article on Hong Laoshi by an educated who spent more than a few months of his time with Hong Laoshi.

Sometimes the truth is stranger than fiction, Sometimes people can't distinguish the two. I though Smith was an "Authority" once as well. Some thought the World was flat.

Best,
Pete

[PHILBERT]

Alright, you have a great point there Buddy. I am by no means trying to argue with you, because you pretty much got the goods on him over someone who does another Bagua. But look at it this way:

When Leung Ting appeared in that issue of KF/TC (http://store.martialartsmart.net/kf200114.html), I looked at how he did his thing, and it looks very sloppy. This is a Grandmaster, and at the time I was studing the Leung Ting Wing Tsun system, and his pak sau was WAY passed his arms, just asking for it to be trapped. I had it drilled into my head NOT to pak sau like that, because you'd get your arms trapped by a good fighter. Yet this Grandmaster did it. If you look at his top students, chances are they were different. Look at Wong Sheung Leung, Leung Ting, William Cheung, Koo Sang, Duncan Leung, and even the Yip brothers. All students of Yip Man, yet all of them have the art differently. In some cases they have major differences (the footwork in Leung Ting is totally different than the footwork of William Cheung).

My point is that even though we train under the masters, WE learn the moves, but we develop some of them differently. My old WT instructor could barely get his arms in front of him in a WT stance because of all the muscle he had. I could do it easily.

What I am saying is that even though people are in the same lineage, once you get to certain levels, you tend to develop it to your way of fighting and what you take it as. There should still be similarities in most cases (and not a practioner of your lineage of Bagua I can not say), but in some there isn't. If I did not know Leung Ting were the head of the Wing Tsun system, I would have looked at those photos and said "That man does NOT know Wing Tsun". I looked at them and just laughed at how sloppy he was.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Philbert - you misunderstand me. I could care less about stylistic or personal differences in skill. I'm merely pointing out that a.) Smith was not as skilled as made himself out to be - never seen anyone of skill come from him, and b.) he spread bs about teachers where there is wealth of evidence that smith was incorrect.

Gene - I don't think your concerns apply here, or it is simple cattiness. Smith was either a.) ignorant and didn't know what he was talking about or b.) purposefully lieing about these teachers to further himself. Personally, I beleive a combination of the two.

I once admired Smith' writing - until I learned better.

Gene, your the FOX news of CMA 'Fair and Balanced.' -- that's a compliment by the way.

[PHILBERT]

MonkeySlap Too, I apologize then. The way you said it, I assumed you meant technique/history and not what he claims towards other teachers. You just gave a broad statement "what is written on the page is incorrect." I *assumed* you meant history/technique and not bad mouthing others. Sorry that I took it wrong.

[travelsbyknight]

"I will cancel this thread, not because it is badmouthing Robby Smith, but because it makes me feel important."


The great PHilbert has spoken.

[jun_erh]

exactly. Philbert closed it because some arrogent "paid his dues" tai chi guy who met Robert Smith at a book signing in 1914 told him to. Tai chi weenie

[Feanor]

Bob Smith is an old man, 73? yrs. He is a old school judoka and boxer, and was raised in an orphanage. (By this I mean a hard-bitten environment we can scarcely conceive of nowadays) I believe he trained either at the Kodokan, or with the highest ranked judokas in the world at that time. I propose a test: go to any small time serious judo dojo in small town America or elsewhere, and ask to practice a little randori freestyle, no rules. If you live, broken or otherwise, think on this: When an experienced judoka tells you that a small Chinese guy is the bomb, there may actually be some truth in the matter. They know the "soft and the hard", and perchance their opinion bears some thinking about (not blind acceptance, certainly.)BTW, Bob broke with Mr. Pittman a long time ago, and they no longer speak at all.
Obviously, Luo is the greatest extant proponent of Gao, nobody disputes this. I don't think anyone in their right mind would. Possibly, just maybe, you could be a lineage holder, of you could be told that you were, by any teacher from an established family, without being the foremost exponent of that style. And so it goes, baby!

[PHILBERT]

Originally posted by jun_erh
exactly. Philbert closed it because some arrogent "paid his dues" tai chi guy who met Robert Smith at a book signing in 1914 told him to. Tai chi weenie

:p actually I was going to close the original before it got off the first page because it was just trash talking at first. But then it generated into a good thread (believe it or not) then quickly degenerated.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Feanor - please. Grow up. What makes you think others have not had a tough life or trained hard? In my club we fought everyone, any rules. Boxing or Judo clubs don't exactly make me shiver. If they happen to be good ones, I'll enjoy the visit. But otherwise...check your ego at the door. There is more to CMA than pajama artists.

Smith lied or obfuscated to make himself look good at the expense of others.