MMA...too tender for the streets?

[KC Elbows]

Here's at least one case of a karate guy winning a multiple attacker scenario involving guns using a number of methods scoffed at by many in the mma crowd...

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2004033237,00.html

Can anyone find any cases where a mma fighter had similar success? Or is mma simply too outdated, with its dependence on wrestling and rash guards?

[Liokault]

Hmmmmm, your not familiar with 'the SUN' or the lower end of the UK press scale are you?

[monkeyboxing]

Ancient chinese proverb: One who believes everything he reads is better off not reading at all.

In other words, if you think you can take karate and beat five guys with guns, you are strongly deluded.

[Liokault]

You say that, but a friend of mine has a TKD teacher who is an animal.

Now I only have this on a second hand hear-say basis but this guy apears to have beaten up 5 guys who attacked him with a base ball bat. He blocked a swing from the bat that broke his arm, but from there on in he kicked ass.

Now I know that this sounds unreal but this guy has a huge reputation in this city for how tough he is and how tough his class is.

[Knifefighter]

About three years ago in Inglewood, CA, two guys with guns broke into a wreslter's home. He took one of the guns away and killed one guy and wounded the other.

[Face2Fist]

Isnt the Sun, the newspaper that has topless women on the cover. the Sun is the equivelant of the Globe or National Inquire.

[Serpent]

No, the topless chicks are on Page 3. Hence their title "Page 3 Girls."

Sad but true.

[rogue]

In other words, if you think you can take karate and beat five guys with guns, you are strongly deluded. I don't think anybody takes a martial art setting out to take on 5 armed thugs, but somehow judoka, karateka, wrestlers and boxers do and sometimes even win. Oddly even untrained people come out with a win in very bad situations.

[KC Elbows]

Originally posted by Liokault
Hmmmmm, your not familiar with 'the SUN' or the lower end of the UK press scale are you?

I need not let facts get in the way of my forum activities.

[iblis73]

Its very easy to say I know this guy/guys who did such and such, read such and such an account.

How do we EMPIRICALLY study the effectiveness of mma/tma? This means you would need AT LEAST 100 case studies. Could we look at the entire overall population of mma/tma practictioners, even in just one city?

[Mr Punch]

Iblis, your problem has no bearing whatsoever on my training. I do not need to know which martial art is empirically effective to be able to effectively kick ass, or as has also happened, effectively get my ass kicked.

[rubthebuddha]

as mat seeeeems to be getting at, the best gauge of survival -- the amount of fight in the fighter.

[BentMonk]

RTB has pwned the correct with a hedonistic drunken monkey dim mak from the karma sutra wu dan secrect temple scroll. Training in any fighting art gives you an edge of preparedness to be sure. Still there's much to be said for the adrenaline rush, picking up whatever's lying around ie: bricks, sticks, etc. You can know 100 different ways to beat dat azz, but if you freeze up, or have never practiced being hit, you're gone. Those who have been in a real fight know that it's fast, ugly, and irractic. The real thing bears no resemblance to any ring match, or God forbid...the movies and tv. Unfortunately I know 'cause I've been the recipiant of a fairly decent azz whoopin. I may still get my azz beat today, but I can withstand some pretty decent punishment and I know for sure the other guy will know I was there. :D

[Meat Shake]

Last year here, some unarmed dude beat the hell out of 4 cops, then took a gun from 1 of them and shot 2 of them.
Cant disarm my ass. Cops are "trained" at fighting mildly as well.

[monkeyboxing]

no matter how much you want to believe it, there is no way an unarmed fighter can defeat five men with guns that are trying to shoot you and are not mentally impaired (james bond movies nonwithstanding). martial arts can make you better at defending yourself, but they cannot make you invincible. that is one thing that i think many of you need to realize.

[monkeyboxing]

Originally posted by Meat Shake
Last year here, some unarmed dude beat the hell out of 4 cops, then took a gun from 1 of them and shot 2 of them.
Cant disarm my ass. Cops are "trained" at fighting mildly as well.

If that is true, which I doubt, it still shows nothing. If he beat the hell out of the cops and THEN took a gun from them, that shows that the cops probably were not using his gun or else he would already have been dead. They were probably trying to bludgeon him into submission, but he resisted and those 1/100000 odds kicked in and he won.

[Meat Shake]

Its not very wise to assume such things are impossible. For you or me feasible? No. Does that mean it cannot happen? Nope.
As for that being true - go dig through gosanantonio.com, or expressnews.com and find the article, I dont feel like it. The SAPD was mourning the 1 year anniversary of the deaths last month. I was right down the street when it happened. Was at dennys on 410 and broadway, san antonio, texas, january of 2003.

No, none of the cops were trying to use their guns, until he started kicking the **** out of all 4 of them. The man was "untrained". One of the cops pulls a gun in the middle of the fray, ol dude takes it and starts unloading on the cops.

[rogue]

Can anybody answer if guns are so hard to take away from someone why gun retention is taught? Anybody?

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by rubthebuddha
as mat seeeeems to be getting at, the best gauge of survival -- the amount of fight in the fighter. Seeeems my arse!

What I was saying is as you said, and this:

Anyone with reasonable experience of full contact and other practical aspects to a training regimen and/or street/bar exp should be able to tell good from bad without the use of both hands, a flashlight, and a bunch of never-gonna-be-accurate empirical nonsense.

Iblis is suffering from western empirical scientific method putting a sleeper hold on the correct of his common sense. Assuming he has some.

I know from experience that when I'm attacked I don't very often resort to the verbal defence of: "Excuse me sir, you do realize I'm trained in the seventh most lethal martial art on the planet." Science has its place, and it aint in an asskickin! :D

[Liokault]

MAT



Science has its place, and it aint in an asskickin!

The Atom bomb would like to disagree with you. He has his friend Hiroshima to back him up.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by monkeyboxing
no matter how much you want to believe it, there is no way an unarmed fighter can defeat five men with guns that are trying to shoot you and are not mentally impaired (james bond movies nonwithstanding). martial arts can make you better at defending yourself, but they cannot make you invincible. that is one thing that i think many of you need to realize. Hi KKM.

YOU need to realize: I AM INVINCIBLE!

Also perhaps you need to realize that according to the Sun (which admittedly is as reliable a news purveyor as my left teste) an unarmed fighter defeated five men, at least one of whom was holding a gun and trying to shoot him. There are many more variables than those that you've mentioned, and I would hope the important points of this story are:

1) Not everybody is useful with a gun (esp outside the US with your readily available gun schools!);
2) Some people wanna use them as a threat and don't really have the balls to use them;
3) Some people who practise martial arts, like some people who don't, will not just give up and let their families get ****ed over even if push comes to shove... which whether I'm (doh! :D ) invincible or not, is the more serious aspect of why I train.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Liokault
The Atom bomb would like to disagree with you. He has his friend Hiroshima to back him up. Ain't seen many of those used in a streetfight... :rolleyes:

Silly boy! :D

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by rogue
Can anybody answer if guns are so hard to take away from someone why gun retention is taught? Anybody? Dunno, but I bet it's sumpin to do with Freud...?

Is it when you never move away from the stage of stickin guns up your ***?

:eek: :D

[red5angel]

I think what that story underlines is the fact that when we train martial arts for self defense we ar etraining to tip luck in our direction.

[Meat Shake]

Hey, Ill take that tip happily. Any extra luck I can get when I have my family tied up and a gun in my face is a definate plus.

[OdderMensch]

Ok, no way? Now granted five good shots, with decent guns, at say 30 paces in an alley, no way. But five armed idiots in a dark, enclosed space?

Five guns pointed at you? Or five people that may happen to have guns on thier person?

Easist way in Texas would be to randomly beat down 15 people, five of 'em are bound to have guns on 'em.

As my mythical, slighly hick Uncle used to say "I don't gotta outrun the bear, I just gotta outrun you."

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Serpent
No, the topless chicks are on Page 3. Hence their title "Page 3 Girls."

Sad but true.

Not that sad. I think it's a charity thing, isn't it?

[red5angel]

why would topless girls be sad again?


As for guns, they aren't a sure thing by any means. A few years ago I read a study on gun fights in american cities and there were some intersting facts. The first was that 80% of all gun battles occur within 8ft. The second was that 1 in 12 shots hit. At 5 ft, 1 in 8 shots hit.
Much like people assuming martial arts is the ultimate answer in a fight, some people mistakenly feel guns are the ultimate answer as well and this is simply not true.

[SifuAbel]

As they say in surgery,

"Better lucky, than good."

[Losttrak]

People that are intimately familiar with their guns can still be effective at a chaotic, close-range scuffle. Plus, never underestimate the shock of muzzle blast near you. Even if you miss, my .40 will scare the **** outta ya long enuff for me to make sure I get ya the second time. Plus, I use mine gun like a reverse punch. Its in the rear. I can hold you off with my front hand long enuff to be sure I get you and I only need to hit you once.

[Liokault]

Originally posted by Losttrak
Plus, I use mine gun like a reverse punch. Its in the rear. I can hold you off with my front hand long enuff to be sure I get you and I only need to hit you once.

You mean you have done this?

Or that you hope to be able to remember to do this in the event of someone trying to kill you, dispite all the adrenalin and chaos?

[YinYangDagger]

It's called the gun retention stance, no big training or fine-motor skills needed....

Any person trained in room-clearing operations use it so the gun CAN'T be taken away. When you fire, you use the old WW2 point shooting methods made popular by the OSS, British Commandos, etc.

Not saying that Losttrak is a super Navy SEAL or anything, but civilians are now being trained to use it because of the above-mentioned points, and it works.

Check out some of Kelly McCann's material. He teaches it the way where you do use your non-gun hand to strike, clear, etc., only to use the gun when you really need to.

[YinYangDagger]

In case there are some other wise guys out there, let me mention that you don't HAVE to use point shooting in this stance. You CAN punch the gun out, get a good grip (two-dogs humping :) , get a good front-sight picture on the target, and fire. I just wanted to clarify that in case there were other combat shooters out there :D

[norther practitioner]

This one time, I heard about this girl in band camp, she stuck her flute up her ehem... well anyway, some walked in on her, and she beat him to death with it....



:rolleyes: :o

[YinYangDagger]

WTF? :rolleyes:

[norther practitioner]

How many times have we talked/heard about rediculous senarios that someone un/trained walked away, either minimally hurt or unscaved... like dudes whos chutes don't open and they sprain an ankle falling from a few thousand feet. Or an unarmed person with three guns in there face beating the crap out of those dudes. Whatever, anything is pretty much possible, but to try to train for crap like that is rediculous. It should come from instinct and your regular training (ie looking for openings, etc)... I'm just saying there are more rediculous stories out there than you can shake your twig too....... Just trying to point out how rediculous some things can sound.

[norther practitioner]

Oh, and I was talking about more of the earlier posts, not the way yall drifted... sorry, should have said that before. That shooting stuff is pretty cool... I should get back into that stuff.

[Losttrak]

You mean you have done this?

Or that you hope to be able to remember to do this in the event of someone trying to kill you, dispite all the adrenalin and chaos?


I haven't utilized that technique in combat yet... however this entire forum exists due to the "pretense" that regular training can have a dramatic effect on combat situations and reactions. I daresay that keeping my gun side to the rear, so I can squeeze the trigger without being overly harried, is far easier in execution than searching for openings with hand or foot.

[YinYangDagger]

no prob NP - you were into the gun thing before? That's cool.

I really really recommend Kelly McCann's videos on the subject if you want to learn some good handgun combatives. They go over a lot, and you can pick and choose which moves to practice. Any of his stuff is solid.

[rogue]

One that I learned and works well for me in practice is to keep both hands on the gun, biceps and elbows tight to my sides and the pistol at about lower chest height. It's a ***** on the wrists but if the guy wants the gun he has to almost walk into it. You can also use kicks to his legs if you need to slow him down.

One thing that my sensei pointed out is if you keep your gunside too far to the rear the opponent stands a good chance of turning you and/or getting to your back. Other bad things are the opponent can press the gun into your body with you shooting yourself. His opinion is if the opponent is that close you should have started shooting already, or never pulled the gun in the first place. rule of thumb, keep the gun between you and the opponent.

[Losttrak]

Always good to hear a counter-argument for the sake of balance. I will fool around with that tactic and check it out.

[Aaron Little]

Gabe Suarez will be teaching his CLOSE RANGE GUNFIGHTING course at our place on May 15-16. I am really looking forward to it. It should cover a lot of the firearms issues that have been discussed. Here is the description of the course:

This dynamic new course will focus on the close range interval where most actual gunfights occur, yet where most organized shooting schools stop. This will be a non-doctrinal, non-dogmatic approach to the problem. We will focus on fighting within arm's length to 5 yards where, like it or not, 85% of all real gunfights take place. We will spend much of the course learning proven strategies for close range combat. We will learn how to move and shoot freely and without an old style "square range" focus. We will fire from weapon retention positions, alternative shooting platforms, learn alternative sighting methods (this is bound to be controversial), alternative force issues, and the all-important issues of mind-set and the after effects of a gunfight. Weapon retention will be discussed as well as Gabe Suarez' ground breaking Aftermath of a Gunfight Lecture. Open to BOTH civilian defenders and professional operators. This course is student-focused to make you the best fighter we can. Its reality-based taking into consideration what happens in a fight, not just on the range. It is concepts-driven, not dogmatic. And above all, it is combat-proven in the real world environments where losing is never an option.

[YinYangDagger]

sounds good "theory wise", but I'm not gonna change anything that's already proven and still in use...

I've always heard that when BOTH hands are on the gun, it's easier to disarm, and if not disarmed, it's easier to realign the muzzle...I guess it just goes to what works for you or how you've been trained, no big deal

[YinYangDagger]

I wouldn't mid checking that out sometime, but you guys are way up in KY :(

[Aaron Little]

YinYangDagger,
Yes, my gym is in Lexington KY but the Firearms School is in Clarksville TN (FT. Campbell).

[YinYangDagger]

thanks for the heads up AL

[rogue]

I've always heard that when BOTH hands are on the gun, it's easier to disarm, and if not disarmed, it's easier to realign the muzzle...I guess it just goes to what works for you or how you've been trained, no big deal
One hand or two if the guy gets his hands on the gun you're at a disadvantage. Your hand is holding what amounts to a wonderful lever to be used against you. Question, why haven't you pulled the trigger before he got to the gun? The method that I described is common, just instead of pointing the gun down you keep it pointed in front. Also, if the other person wants the gun he has to close with you, leaving him an easy target and not giving him an outstreatched arm to grab. You're not there to grapple but to use the gun. But use what works for you, there may be a best way but never an only way.

[rogue]

******* edit ********
But use what works for you, there may be a best way but never an only way. What is best for a LEO may not be best for a civilian. Best can also be determined by what is trying to be accomplished.

[YinYangDagger]

"Question, why haven't you pulled the trigger before he got to the gun?"

I'm speaking of a more realistic situation, like an intruder in your home, where you've got to open the bedroom door, go down a hallway, go into your kids' room to check on them, pass by closets, etc. Plenty of examples where an intruder can "pop out" anywhere, right in front, behind, beside you (take your pic). He!!, he may tackle you. I wasn't talking about when you're face to face in the street. In any of the instances above, I'm just saying that to have BOTH hands on your gun leaves you pretty helpless to use anything else EXCEPT the gun. Like I said, it was my training to have one hand free, to strike, hit, chop, claw, grab, poke, scratch, push, etc to clear yourself from attack so you can use the gun.

"One hand or two if the guy gets his hands on the gun you're at a disadvantage."

My point exactly. Have one arm free to fight or protect the gun long enough to get your shots off.

[YinYangDagger]

What is best for a LEO may not be best for a civilian.

Why? A gun pretty much makes everyone equal, if they've had the right training and are on the same level mentally.

I prefer military-type training over LEO, although it's the same in some schools.

[YinYangDagger]

Rogue- is this kinda like your stance?

[YinYangDagger]

this is sort of the stance I learned, for CQB / Room Clearing

[Fred Sanford]

this is sort of the stance I learned, for CQB / Room Clearing

so how would you use that stance exactly?

[rogue]

I'm speaking of a more realistic situation, like an intruder in your home, where you've got to open the bedroom door, go down a hallway, go into your kids' room to check on them, pass by closets, etc. Plenty of examples where an intruder can "pop out" anywhere, right in front, behind, beside you (take your pic). That picture is the one I've learned. Good points YYD. I'm being trained for the most likely situations that I'll encounter as a civilian. Since I'm not likely to have to clear someone elses house I've concentrated on learning to work my own. I practice clearing/checking each room of the house. I know the best way to approach and enter each room for best visibility. I know where all the mirrors are and how to use them to my advantage. I know where the floors creaks and which doors squeek, stick or won't close. I have a good idea of where to hide from playing hide and seek with the kids, don't laugh the little brats are very creative at hiding :). I have a good idea of the best ways to break into my house. And that's considering that they've got past the locks and motion detectors. So if someone pops out or gets behind me on my home turf I've really f#$%ed up. :)


Why? A gun pretty much makes everyone equal, if they've had the right training and are on the same level mentally. I was referring to different ROE.

[YinYangDagger]

Fred - Handgun held back to the retention position to avoid being taken away, offset, etc. Front hand out to defend with.

Rogue - Good points. Keep training!

[rogue]

YinYangDagger, the retention stance looks like the same position I try to use for right after the pistol clears the holster and before the guard stance you posted. I thought you were blading your body more so the left side is forward and the pistol is almost parallel to the body. Do you use the same left hand position?

[YinYangDagger]

I've looked everywhere on the net to try and find a description of how I was taught. I really can't find anything.

this is similar: http://www.tacticalselfdefense.com/LE/MEB/stance.htm

I learned directly from Kelly McCann/Jim Grover. He's got videos out that are supposed to be good. On these covers are some examples of the stances and it's use etc.

http://www.paladin-press.com/detail.aspx?ID=190

http://www.paladin-press.com/detail.aspx?ID=996

[Aaron Little]

That looks to be the same retention position that I use as well. Hand anchored to the bottom of the pectoral muscle with the firearm turned out at around 40 –45 degrees. For extreme close range I have the weak side arm guarding my head with the elbow towards the threat. This also serves to decrease the chance of crossing the week side hand when you fire.

[YinYangDagger]

EXACTLY A.L. Thanks for the description.

[Aaron Little]

YYD,
You are welcome.

[rogue]

This is the one I was told not to do, but I can see where a LEO may need it.
Do not stand face-to-face to a person because you are exposing your vital areas such as your groin or your firearm to that person. Turn your Strong-Side away, at about a 45 degree angle, to create the smallest surface area for a person to attack and the greatest distance from that person's hands to your firearm. This is often called blading your body.

[Aaron Little]

My body/shoulders are “bladed” at some where around 30 –35 degrees with the strong side back while in a retention position. I square up to the threat as I punch out into an isosceles firing position. Of course one can fire if needed from retention, during the punch out, or from isosceles.

So what is everyone's opinion of "SUL"? Personally I like it. It allows me to perform a 360 degree scan while maintaining muzzle control. That way I do not sweep family, partner, team or whatever.

[YinYangDagger]

SUL isn't a position to use if you're IN a gunfight, for sure. But it is good for maneuvering so you don't flash someone innocent (as you mentioned, AL). Plus it's good to move around tight spaces with, so you don't have your weapon stuck out in front of you (disarms again).

All in all, I don't practice it much. I HAVE in the past, but when I hear a bump in the night I like having my weapon muzzle pointed forward and ready to go. But then again, who am I to kid? I'd leave the Glock 17 in the nightstand and grab the Mossberg 590 given I have the time :D

Rogue, AL, anyone else, what's your favorite pistola and long gun? Just curious.

[YinYangDagger]

AL, another question. What type of grip you use, say, when you punch the gun out to fire? Thumb on thumb? What we called "two dogs humping" LOL.

[rogue]

I've retired my old chiefs special (http://www.ptsinv.apachego.com/pr1427.htm) to the safety deposit box and I'm shopping for something new. I'm trying to go with an auto but may end up with an updated chief; right price, right size. (http://www.gunblast.com/S&W_342PD.htm) So far the auto that my hand has fallen in love with is the SW99 but I'm still looking into it.


Hey YinYangDagger, where do you live with so many bumps in the night? Most of the things bumping in my house is me stumbling over my worthless dog.

BTW, that's not my chief in the first picture, mine is a little more worn as it was my fathers off duty carry for 25 years. :D

[YinYangDagger]

Rogue - Great taste in guns! S&W is the only revolver I'll have. As far as autos, the Glock (of course) and the M1911-A1 .45 are my all time favs.

[YinYangDagger]

here's some pictures to some of my weapons :D

www.hometown.aol.com/yinyangdagger/

[scotty1]

I like your bonus. :)

[YinYangDagger]

yeah, it is rather nice <sigh>