Is the VTM being disrespectful?

[reneritchie]

NO!

IMHO, while I do not agree with everything in the article quoted and referenced below, I find nothing wrong or disrespectful about challenging the idea of Ng Mui, or referring to it as a myth.

Nor do I see anything wrong or disrespectful about challenging the idea of a Shaolin-WCK connection, or referring to it as a myth.

Hopefully there is no double standard and everyone will encourage the open discussion of both these, and other, important issues without hypocracy and with productivity.


"The Secret History of Wing Chun: The Truth Revealed
(also appeared as "Wing Chun Controversy: Is this the truth about Wing Chun's History")
By Benny Meng and Alfredo Delbrocco
"The first casualty when war comes is truth."
-- Hiram Johnson

...

"Put simply, the harsh truth is this: the myth of the Buddhist nun, Ng Mui and her disciple Yim Wing Chun, the supposed founders of the Wing Chun system, is just that - a myth. As the internet has brought information more readily to us, it has come to light that the story of Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun was merely a way to conceal the truth about the system's origins and the identities of the political rebels who truly developed it..."

http://home.vtmuseum.org/articles/meng/truthrevealed.php

[reneritchie]

Putting Myths to Rest

BY
Benny Meng and Richard Loewenhagen

...
Recent findings uncovered by historians and martial arts teachers feeding continuous streams of information and documentation to the Ving Tsun Museum in Dayton, Ohio -- and verified through extensive travel by the Museum Curator and staff to substantiate sources and documentation -- reveal that Ng Mui played no role in the creation or development of Wing Chun Kung Fu, if she ever existed at all...


http://home.vtmuseum.org/articles/meng/myths.php

[Train]

I do not think it is disrespectful at all. I mean it's what they believe and the VTM did travel and provided us info on their research. Who else is willing to spend the time and money to do something like that.

[duende]

Wow...

If flipflopping between this thread, and your last deleted thread wasn't enough... It appears you need to flipflop again in your second post.

Everyone's welcome to their opinions of course... but really now, these posts of yours are tired!

[yuanfen]

Not disrespectful but no respect is expected. Research?
promotion? Depends on viewpoint.
Siddharta? Bodhidharma? Christ? Eve?Bodies found? Birth certificates? DNA?
Methods? Falsifiable assumptions? Sifting opinions?(How)
Methodology? How to avoid affirming the pre-determined conclusion? Definitions?(nature of myths)

[reneritchie]

Hey Joy,

Good points. Personally, I just think there shouldn't be a double standard. If they're okay with Benny talking that way about Ng Mui, they should be okay with others talking that way about the Shaolin->Wing Chun connection.

I think the best way to avoid bias and vested self-interest is to do like the Foshan WCK association did--have equal representation from among the established branches, but with a neutral party as the chair. That way, many different and divergent opinions, views, theories, etc. can enjoy discussion.

[old jong]

It comes from China eh?...;)

[Phenix]

Originally posted by reneritchie


I think the best way to avoid bias and vested self-interest is to do like the Foshan WCK association did--have equal representation from among the established branches, but with a neutral party as the chair. That way, many different and divergent opinions, views, theories, etc. can enjoy discussion.

Rene,

I certainly agree with the idea.

Called me when the panel were form: I suggest within the panel also the expert of White Crane from Fujian, Emei from Emei, Shao Lin from Song Shan, all from main land China.

(I dont mind raising money to pay the travel for all of the experts, I think 10,000 USD might be enough for 3 Masters. )
Get A real Chinese Chan patriach class monk also.

Then, I will bring all my data to join and let them make the decision.



Let's take a part and analized SLT to dead, in term of Spritual, Mind, Body.

But, I bet you IP Man, YKS, Fung Family..... will be right in the conclusion.

White Crane based!
Want to Bet?

Make that day happen, set up the panel.
I will wiat for your Called RENE! Anytime any place! :D

[yuanfen]

Hendrik: Let's analized SLT to dead.
------------------------------------------
Let's not.
YGKYM might collapse.
Couldn't resist.
Joy

[Phenix]

Joy,

No worried,

you just have to rotate your body 45degrees to your left or right without changing your YJKYM and see what stance is that become ?and how the grounding is firm, your body is link naturally.

Try it. :D

JIM, Try it :D :D

Rene, Try it :D :D :D




WCK's YJKYM is so elegant and transformation ready similar to water. It is alive.

Switching back and forth from Emei and White Crane is eaaaasyyyy. :D

IT is natural isnt it? :D

We practice with facing forward, we use it with 45degree offset.
Why do you thing CK do those side turn to left and right? hahahahah. See it now? It cover your groin area great too. :d

I left the fun for your all to night in your Kwon while practicing!

[kungfu cowboy]

Cool! Now it can be published!

[reneritchie]

Lachine it is!

[old jong]

A nice name for a school ....Club de kung fu de Lachine!....Sounds authentic...;)Give me 10%....;)

For those who could'nt know; An area of Montreal's island is called "Lachine" witch means "China" in french. An old story...;)

[Gangsterfist]

I heard somewhere that there was a birth certificate for Yim Wing Chun during that time period???

Anyone know if this is correct?

As for Ng Mui, I have heard theories that Ng Mui was a monk disguised as a nun. This was because monks were kill on sight at some places and he disguised himself as Ng Mui for safety. Also, most people (men) do not see women as a threat, so it would make it easier to travel I suppose????

However, I don't know how much of all of this can or can't be proven.

[anerlich]

As for Ng Mui, I have heard theories that Ng Mui was a monk disguised as a nun.

Oh, great, so WC was invented by a cross-dresser.

I guess it's no more fanciful than some of the other ideas I've read in recent times.

[Da_Moose]

Rene,

Nice idea about the Foshan association. If you would like, I can see if the Museum would be interested in participating in such an event. It seems like something that would be most beneficial to all of us here, especially with a neutral party chair to keep the order. Where/where would you suggest such an event take place? The Museum already plans to introduce & compare Chi Sim, Hung Fa Yi and Yip Man in a workshop this year. Anyone is welcome to attend if they like.

I'd like to see such an event (referring to the Foshan Association) take place. Writing about it is one thing, let's see some action though as well.




Steve

[Ultimatewingchun]

Andrew Nerlich:

Actually, I heard that it wasn't "exactly" a cross dresser...it was Michael Jackson.

But look...everyone...Rene makes a good point. If we can question Ng Mui or Wing Chun's existence - we can also question the Shaolin/Wing Chun connection.

But what Wing Chun lineage doesn't try to make the claim that their art derives it's roots from the Shaolin temple ?

It's all CIRCUMSTANTIAL evidence...at best. No one can really prove anything definitively.

THEREFORE...making outlandish claims about being the "true wing chun"...or the "original, pure wing chun"...or the "superior form of wing chun"...because somehow you "know" that your particular version of the art came "directly" from Shaolin...and can be "traced" somehow right to YOUR door (or the door of your sifu...or the door of your sigung)...

Let's put it this way: It's okay to believe these things and to even say them out loud occasionally...

But when it's done on a virtual daily, weekly, monthly, yearly basis...AND YOU CAN'T PROVE ANY OF IT...

You're asking for trouble. And you'll get it. And you will deserve it. Because, in effect...what you are really doing is attempting to STEAL what's not yours to have.

You're attempting to steal that portion of the sunlight that belongs to others...unless you can PROVE otherwise...

WHICH YOU CAN'T.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Da_Moose:

The museum is the very last place on earth I, for one, would want to see such a conference held.

There would be no "neutral party" chair at Benny Meng's museum. And that is what it is. At this point in time.

...Benny Meng's museum.

Don't try to stack the deck.

Too many jokers will appear if you do that.

[anerlich]

The Museum already plans to introduce & compare Chi Sim, Hung Fa Yi and Yip Man in a workshop this year.

WHICH Yip Man? There are quite a few, and some very different from each other. Putting them all together would be to do them a disservice. You certainly wouldn't want to tell William Cheung that he and Leung Ting do the same thing, or vice versa.

Of course that's already been done by the museum principals in "Mastering Kung Fu", where they lumped the various Yip Man lineages in with everything else other than HFY and CS under "Popular Wing Chun" and then proceeded to denigrate it.

With such an attitude, how can the Museum REALLY expect anyone to believe such a presentation to give due respect to Yip Man lineages, to which its principals have already been dismissive and condescending, if not insulting, in black and white? Why is this not hypocritical, and why should we believe that the workshop will be objective?

Your fellow students accuse us of pushing political agenda ... when in fact your seniors have published the worst political diatribe to hit WC so far this century.

[gilsinger]

Ultimatewingchun,
Da_Moose asked "Where would you like to see such an event take place?"
Than you diplomatically requested that he "Don't try to stack the deck."
I think there was a misunderstanding in there somewhere.

[gilsinger]

anerlich,
I'm sure that the Yip Man from the comparison/workshop will be the Yip Man that Sifu Meng successfully instructed before. Yours was a good question, and could have just as easily been left at that.

[iblis73]

I would expand on the neutral third party idea. Said third party should likely be made up of 2-3 people who hold phds in history and anthropology and who do NOT practice martial arts. Fluency in Chinese would be mandatory.

No more amateurs performing research please.

[Train]

Ultimatewingchun,

It seems like you can not be pleased at all. Instead of complaining all the time can't you just come up with some kinda
solution? It would be more civil dont you think?

anerlich,

It seem like you are displeased on what the VTM presents, well atleast from what i'm reading. If you are so displeased why not email them and ask them questions that might resolved some of your anger. I mean, from my experiences with the VTM, they have been very curteous and generous, to me at least with their research.

[anerlich]

Yours was a good question, and could have just as easily been left at that.

I thought I asked several good questions, and could have just as easily asked a few more.

[gilsinger]

Forgive me, but after reading:


Of course that's already been done by the museum principals in "Mastering Kung Fu", where they lumped the various Yip Man lineages in with everything else other than HFY and CS under "Popular Wing Chun" and then proceeded to denigrate it.

I stopped considering the remainder of your message, as I felt you were simply saying what has already been said many times. Perhaps that was not fair of me, and I should have endured the remainder of the negativity and addressed each question.

I think a fair answer to your question(s) is that it will be objective, from the VTM's point of view, since it is their seminar, and they have a great familiarity with everything they will be introducing. Since you do not agree with them, you will not consider it objective. It is possible that the VTM might not be able to flick a lightswitch or shovel snow from it's front step without it being portrayed in a negative light by certain people, but I'm sure that they will continue to do what they feel is right, and there will always be those that disagree.

[duende]

Yes, it's true I consider this thread part of a greater political agenda... Rene's and Hendrik's to be exact. Why else would Rene post this thread within hours of his last inflamatory thread being deleted.

It appears however that there are those that who are easily manipulated into an angry frenzy on this forum. Simply reference a two year old thread written by
Sifu Benny Meng TWC SIfu Alfredo Delbrocco and voila... Another pointlessly bitter thread with many false accusations.

Well here's some more reference material for you...

HENDRIK SANTO MADE THESE CLAIMS

1. HENDRIK SANTO PROMOTED HIMSELF AS THE GRANDMASTER OF WCK IN THE SAME LIGHT AS CHI SHIM WCK GRANDMASTER ANDREAS HOFFMAN.

2. HENDRIK SANTO CLAIMS HIS YIK KAM WCK IS THE MOST ORIGINAL WCK.

3. HENDRIK SANTO CLAIMS THE WCK TAN SAO WAS FROM HIS ERMIE WHITE CRANE WATER PLAM.

IT'S TIME TO SEE THIS CHO GA WCK GRANDMASTER HENDRIK SANTO TO BACK UP HIS CLAIMS AND SHOW US WHAT HE GOT.

Here's the link...

http://www.vingtsun.com.hk/forum/treplies.asp?message=1593&all=True

[Phenix]

Duende,

hahahaha. Great Stories.

You can blame on or twisting words on Hendrik when you dont have the answer.

Do you realized that Rene, Victor, anerlich, Joy, and others doesnt practiced the same lineage of WCK?


As who is the inheritor... GM.... I dont need those title. You want it take it.

[duende]

truth hurts huh??

[yuanfen]

Things must be desperate that things have to be pulled out from
the cesspool of anonymity, trolling and cowardice that is the HK.VTAA/JKD list.
Poor form.
The VTM is Benny Meng's school and operation and has its own opinions and agenda.No big deal. There are many wing chun schools and operations... and POVs-no big deal.
No conspiracy theories-just a wacky
Wacky fractious wing chun world.
JR alwas seem to sign off--- gotta run. Cant use that.
I am nota runner- but I gotta zzzzzzzzzzzzz and work out-oops-
in reverse order. Cheers. Joy Chaudhuri

[duende]

If it is such a cesspool, then why do you post there Joy???

Or is that another truth that hurts too much to face.

As to what drove me to post that link...

Let's just say I'm sick of Rene and Hendrik's hypocritical ****. Saying that they're fine with other people's opinions, yet constantly posting inflamatory threads themselves...

[Phenix]

Look at this picture. WCK right?


Nah. it is the White Crane Weng Chun's water shape hand.

[Phenix]

how about this? WCK?

Nah, White CRane Weng Chun from Fujian.

[Chango]

Duende,
Well said!

Others,
Da moose said it very clear. Everyone is welcome to attend. If you do not feel your lineage is being represented or properly represented. The doors have been and still are open. The VTM welcomes those that are willing to share. We are all WCK and should show respect to each other.

The VTM announces all workshops by all Grand masters that have presented. I make it a point not to miss them. I hope to see some of you there. To those of you who have such big issues with some of the information being presented show up and contribute. The VTM offers a healthy atmosphere for all lineages of WCK. We are happy to interact with all lineages. It is not uncommon to have several different lineages attend some of the workshops presented at by the VTM. You would not beleive how many different lineages I personally have got to experience first hand through VTM events. I love the fact that when I discuss most lineages I have some type of physical experience I can reference. In alot of cases it is first hand experiences with a Grand master or lineage holder themselves. I find this gets in the way with some people who just read about them and assume.

<Phenix wrote> Do you realized that Rene, Victor, anerlich, Joy, and others doesnt practiced the same lineage of WCK?

The gents listed seem to have an unhealthy attraction to any thread concerning Shaolin/Wing chun connection. a few of them cannot seem to leave any thread alone that has a HFY or CS member on it. I mean a couple of them even hi jacked a thread discussing someone's positive experience with GM Hoffman. It is very clear that some personal issues are there. I hope they find resolve just not on this forum. I think we all have grown tired of these Jr high school anticks. I know I have. :rolleyes:

Chango

[Phenix]

Sorry sir,

This is also White Crane, Picture taken decades ago

[Phenix]

Duende ,

Since I post the Whtie Crane water shape hand picture and more picture from White Crane Weng Chun to support my thesis on White Crane Weng Chun with WCK.

I expect you to post some old pictures from variaty sources to show conncetion with Shao Lin too, since that is your thesis.


Truth doesnt hurt.
But I am not feeling great when others are hurting.

[duende]

Showing pictoral simularites between Southern Shaolin/Fujian systems, does nothing to prove or disprove either of our beliefs. And besides, my problem with Rene and you is not your beliefs, or your research. It is your constant political asassination atempts on my school. Using your logic, I could just as easily claim that White Crane is derrived from Wing Chun.

PAGE 37 "MASTERING KUNG FU"...
It should be noted that the five Shaolin elders may be a metaphor for five different secret societies founded by the monks. They may also simply be a historic metaphor for other variations of southern Shaolin martial systems. Those systems can overall be referred to as the Fujian system. Some of these systems are so technically related that they seem to be just variations of each other, and they all share similar legends about their origins. Their differences seem to grow with the passing of each new generation as they become more and more public. With their public identity, they became increasingly focused on individual personality and the passing on of that expression rather than on the principles, concepts, and structures that were agressively adherred to when they were secret societies. The following systems, which share some serious similarities to Chi Sim or Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun, reference their roots to the Southern Shaolin Temple and can be considered part of the Fujian system: Chu GA Tong Long (Southern Praying Mantis), Ng Jou Kuen (Five Ancestors Boxing), Fujian Bai He (White Crane) , Bak Mei (White Eyebrow), and Lung Ying Kuen (Southern Dragon Boxing). They all share similar legends and employ many similar techniques.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by duende


1, Showing pictoral simularites between Southern Shaolin/Fujian systems, does nothing to prove or disprove either of our beliefs.


2, Using your logic, I could just as easily claim that White Crane is derrived from Wing Chun.




1, you asked me to prove about Water shape hands I showed it to you. from various sorce.

Now, I asked you to show old pictures to support your thesis. Easy as that. You have it show it.



Add the following attachement too, by the White Crane people.

See if you can get a Shao Lin system or Soong San Shao Lin with 350 years of CLEAR history recorded in both Qing official record with private record similar to White Crane Weng Chun to support your thesis.

Here I show you White Crane support to my thesis. You need to show your also.





2, See, I dont even condlude a word yet. I just presenting pictures and White Crane Weng Chun's article.









_________________________________


http://hk.geocities.com/yongchunwhitecrane/

From the same site of Whitecrane Yongchun.

²M°®¡A¹Å¦~¶¡¡A¥Ã¬K¥ÕÅb®±²Ä¤T©Î²Ä¥|¥N¶Ç¤H¤_ªT®v¤Ó¡A
¦b¥Ã¬K¥ÕÅb®±ªº¶¯«p°ò¦¤W¡A¥[¥H³Ð·s¡A¨Ã±N³oºØ¹ñ·sªº
®±ªk¶Çµ¹ÄYµú¬K¡A¥ÑÄYµú¬K»P¨ä¤Ò±ç³Õ¾©µo´_¥ú¤j¡A¤H_? br /> ºÙ³o¥ÑÄYµú¬K¶Ç±Ð¥X¨Óªº·s®±ªk¬°¡uµú¬K®±¡v¡]¥Ã¬K®±¡^
¡A¤]´N¬O?#123;®É_·¦æ¥@¬Éªº¼sªF¡uµú¬K®±¡v¡C

Translation,

In Qing Dynasty's era of Chien Long and Chia Emperor. Weng Chun White Crane's third or forth generation follower, Nun Ng Mui , with her strong back ground in Weng Chun White Crane Kuen, creating her new style, and passed this new styel to Yim Wing Chun, ...... people called this new style Wing Chun Kuen or Weng Chun kuen. That is today's world popular Wing Chun Kuen from Canton.

[Chango]

So here we go using Hendricks logic check out the pics LOL!

http://www.undergroundkungfu.com/pages/sifu_performance.html


http://www.maui.net/~mantis/

So now we are not only from Bak Mei but also Southern mantis as well. Hendrik come on man LOL! You have to look deeper then a few simular looking movements. We all are taught from day one that kung fu goes beyond simple technique. So why would we go back to looking at technique or movements to seek connections in origin?

Chango :rolleyes:

[desertwingchun2]

"As who is the inheritor... GM.... I dont need those title. You want it take it." - Hendrick

Um .... don't you hate it when your ego comes back and bites you on the arse? If you don't need it why did you profess that as your position in the Cho Gar WC family? HAHAHA ....

I bet you'd have a better response if someone print one in a book for you, huh?? What a tool !!!

-David

[desertwingchun2]

http://www.rembrandt.gen.nz/white_crane/images.html


Hmmm ....

- David

[Phenix]

Cango,

Show your pictures to support your thesis.
Dont side track. :D

[Chango]

Hendrick logic at work!

http://www.loongying.co.uk/lineage.html




http://www.maui.net/~mantis/characteristics.htm



http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/9803/palmmove.gif


Need I post more pics of different systems that share some Wing chun postures?

Chango :D

[Phenix]

Chango, desertwingchun2,



Thank you for your all personal opinions.




See, A picture worth a thousand words. Two worth even more.
And the White Crane's support worth even much more.

If the WCK people in this forum judge that I am wrong that is fine.


But,
I hope you show pictures older then 1970 to support your thesis.
Otherwise, the reader in this forum is going to wonder about your claims. Attacking me is not equal to show your pictures ....

I let the forum make the judgement.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by desertwingchun2
"As who is the inheritor... GM.... I dont need those title. You want it take it." - Hendrick


I bet you'd have a better response if someone print one in a book for you, huh?? What a tool !!!

-David


I have lots of high tech world wide micro electronics Patterns. May be I should give you one so that you can showing off and feel great? :D

[Chango]

Hendrick,
I do not doubt that your version of Wing chun may have White crane in it or maybe influenced by White crane. But you have to realize your speaking for all WCK has many holes in it. I know you have extremely long SLT but nothing else. That does not mean that everything else came from your SLT. You have to look outside of your little "fish bowl" thinking.

If your version of WCK is deficient of something this does not mean it does not exist somewhere else in WCK. It also does not lead one to believe that these items that you are deficient of came from your particular way of thinking.

Your status can be brought to issue if you are not considered to be an authority by your teacher or your peers. If your kung fu family has does not recognize you as being fit to represent them. We can only say that what you are doing is your version and you simply cannot represent the Cho Gar family. I can only say that from what I gather your position is not one of the Cho Gar family but only yours personally. that is fine but don't pull your BS of acting like you are some type of authority in the public eye.

Chango

[Redd]

Originally posted by Chango
<Phenix wrote> Do you realized that Rene, Victor, anerlich, Joy, and others doesnt practiced the same lineage of WCK?

The gents listed seem to have an unhealthy attraction to any thread concerning Shaolin/Wing chun connection. a few of them cannot seem to leave any thread alone that has a HFY or CS member on it. I mean a couple of them even hi jacked a thread discussing someone's positive experience with GM Hoffman. It is very clear that some personal issues are there. I hope they find resolve just not on this forum. I think we all have grown tired of these Jr high school anticks. I know I have. :rolleyes:

Just like duende, canglong, train and chango. Fascinating!

[Phenix]

Chango,

Pictures and written support from other 350 years old existing style please. :D

Reasoning cannot replace pictures of support before 1970's.

[desertwingchun2]

"May be I should give you one so that you can showing off and feel great?" - hendrick

Already feel great and no need to show off.

So keep whatever pattern you have and enjoy your high tech show off feel great.

BTW, next time you show off dont claim to be lineage holder when you're not. That's not too high tech for you is it, Tool?

-David

[Train]

Thank you duede and Sifu Chango again for all that info. Coming from the Yip man lineage, I almost understood what Hendiik was saying but after youguys showed me some pics of the Mantis and the Dragon styles, it makes more sense to look more into a system rather than looking at these pics heheheheh. Dang!! After looking at those pics and then i went to yahoo and did a search myself, if i just looked at pics, then WCK is derived from all of the martail arts becuase almost everysystem has something similar to WCK but I know now that's BS :) I agree that you have to look INTO it a lot more. Thanks again guys!!!

[desertwingchun2]

"If the WCK people in this forum judge that I am wrong that is fine." - hendrick

What about the White Crane people? Why do they lay claim to creating Japanese arts and not Wing Chun? The White Crane people know more of their history than you. Unless you are now - via one of your high tech patterns - a lineage holder in the White Crane family as well ....

Come on, show off more than photos and share which families of White Crane gave you so much inside info? Oh yea you already said you got the info from "rare" books ..... Ego is a biznitch aint it?

- David

[Chango]

Hendrick,
First of all you are not going to prove anything from a simple picture of a body shape! but if I use your logic I can use this picture of a touch up from a painting on the Northern temples wall. (that's before 1970 LOL)

http://www.kungfulibrary.com/shaolin-kung-fu-3.htm

---The monk on the right is going to use a verticle punch ROFLOL!


http://www.shaolinwolf.com/Imagesabcd/blackbeltcoversifu.jpg


---Looks like Pak Dar to me! LOL!

http://www.shaolinwolf.com/Imagesabcd/closefighting1.jpg

--- I'm not sure what the date was on this one but it looks like a bong sau goin on there! ROFLOL!

Hendrick are you finished wasting our time with this picture business? you cannot draw conclusions from pictures alone.

Chango

[yuanfen]

1.The old water palm/punch and othere Fukien pics are indeed interesting Hendrik.... and also seems to show the centerline principle.

2.Dragon style and tong long/southern mantis show some common close quarters southern themes but do not show
the body structures (knees, pelvis, chest) close to wing chun.

Thesis #1 (Hendrik) seems closer to using a rifle than #2(the VTM
phalanx) which uses a scatter gun.


Hendrik-best to ignore VTM posts-why mud wrestle with zealots.
Best to share your insights without engaging the group think folks. You give them more attention than is necessary.

joy chaudhuri
(gladly doing one of the "popular wing chun" styles)

[kungfu cowboy]

Do people think that people are making stories up about people and history to serve the self-interest of certain people? Come on people!

[gilsinger]

The center line principle is so very basic. We're talking about a very very old idea there.

Photographs can be taken of an object in motion, and make it appear to be at rest. Plus, there's the often the factor of the photographer, e.g. "I can't see your face, lower your hands." "Make it look more exciting!" These examples are based upon real experiences.

The mixing of ideas, the influence of one thing on another, this always occurs, and always has. The effect is particularly pronounced when something has no means of self-standardization.

I personally hope that everyone's Wing Chun serves them well.

There have been, throughout history, some people who are now (and perhaps were then) considered very wise, who could make a fine analogy, or construct a sound metaphor on occasion, perhaps condensing a parable down to it's essence, making it easy to remember and pass along. However, not everyone who can construct a metaphor has substantive wisdom to pass along, and I doubt that any of them used this form of communication 90% of the time. It's a movie stereotype, some old Sage handing his Disciple what sounds like a bunch of clouds all the time, and then the Disciple goes out into the world and is faced with something, and then the clouds turn into a single piercing ray of sunshine. The respected Old Man's wisdom saved the day, and the Disciple's faith was not misplaced. Hooray! Those ideas, as inspiring as they may be, often come from works of fiction.

I figured I'd add that last bit in there since most of the group are hurling very poorly veiled insults. I would prefer to do without all of that, and see a level-headed exchange, or no exchange at all. If the only exchange is "You're stupid and you suck!" back and forth, over and over, then why are people so eager to waste so much energy and to spoil so much harmony? I can see that at a pre-school.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello David,


What about the White Crane people? Why do they lay claim to creating Japanese arts and not Wing Chun?

The lay claim to both! White Crane and its San Chin set show a clear connection to the Okinawan arts and then of course the Japanese which stem from the Okinawan's. Then you can also see that they, the White Crane people, list Wing Chun as a relative of their art.

The White Crane people know more of their history than you.

White Crane could very well be the generic MA that gave birth to many south fist. Look at the numerology of their sets as one example. Many of these other south fist arts like Whitebrow, Dragon, Chu Gar etc. are all modern arts if thats a good way to call them. Chu Gar was not named until Lau Sui started teaching and then one of his guys called it Chow Gar. Dragon and Whitebrow masters were all rumored to have visited Chung Yel Chong for training. Go back to the mid 1800's and try to find those arts. Highly unlikely. Its probally all do to the ammount of training one recieved. Some may have only learned Som Bo and then built their own arts from there. Some may have learned Som Bo and Sup Bot and built from there. Some may have recieved the whole enchillada 3, 18, 108 etc..

I believe that White Crane and Jook Lum may have shared roots and hence the reason both share the same forms sequence/numerology. Also, Jook Lum was from the Lungfoshan area just north of Fukien so the arts were too close (and too similar in many ways) to each other not to some relations.


Just some thoughts!


Gotta walk!

hehe

[Ultimatewingchun]

Okay...Train...You want solutions instead of complaints -

I second the suggestion made by iblis:

2-3 people who hold phd's in history and anthropology and who do NOT practice martial arts. Fluency in Chinese would be mandatory.

Excellent idea !

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Hendrik,


Thanks for the pictures! I believe the third one, with the full side body turn and cutting elbow, looks very similar to this attachment. Except we are using the WC engine/model to drive it.



See ya,

[reneritchie]

May I please ask everyone to stop trolling and hijacking this thread. While it seems standard practice that anytime a legitimate thread is established, certain parties will jump in and begin personally insulting people to draw attention away from it, I would ask that they be left to the moderators and the rest of us get on with the topic at hand:

Why is it okay to challenge the Ng Mui -> Wing Chun connection, but not the Shaolin -> Wing Chun connection?

As to the idea of a neutral third party, I fully endorse this, but do not believe either myself or the VTM should be involved in any way. Too much baggage.

(P.S. I have as much a political connection to Hendrik as the VTM does (probably less at it's possible they're working together to stir up controversey and attention for each other like Timberlake and Janet Jackson). I give Hendrik a harder time than the VTM, thusfar he is simply more gracious in response).

[gilsinger]

Why is it okay to challenge the Ng Mui -> Wing Chun connection, but not the Shaolin -> Wing Chun connection?

I think that it IS okay. It's being done all the time. Either viewpoint is being challenged. When the Ng Mui->Wing Chun connection is challenged, there is an understandable uproar, and when the Shaolin->Wing Chun connection is challenged, there is an understandable uproar.

That's what's happening these days. We're soaking in it.

If there's 3 people in this hypothetical neutral party, and none of them practice martial arts, does that limit the scope of the debate/investigation/whatever-you-want-to-call-it? If so, would that be a good thing or a bad thing?

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Hello Hendrik,


Thanks for the pictures! I believe the third one, with the full side body turn and cutting elbow, looks very similar to this attachment. Except we are using the WC engine/model to drive it.



See ya,


Jim,

Thanks for the picture.

Yes, indeed with a different enginee as told by our ancestors.
You know, I think we all from Yip Man, YKS, Fung, Yik Kam's family can have a party for fun to discuss about all of these.

We can all share pictures, Kuen Kuits, the way to issue energy, and even the way to incoorporate other arts.....

[duende]

Rene,

Despite a few naive members of this forum, it is widely known in the WC community that you, Hendrick, and a few others from your WCML, are practically the same.

You want me to stop hijacking your threads??? Start really practicing what you preach by stopping your continual posting of inflamatory threads.

No one has a problem with you questioning any WC origin connections. The problem exists with your unecessary political BS, however well veiled.

[Phenix]

Hi Joy,


1.The old water palm/punch and othere Fukien pics are indeed interesting Hendrik.... and also seems to show the centerline principle. --------J


We can check about those centerline principle. the white crane has a transparent history records. By the way, about the inch power too.




2.Dragon style and tong long/southern mantis show some common close quarters southern themes but do not show
the body structures (knees, pelvis, chest) close to wing chun. ----J


Look at their head.... .

But that is not the point.
The point is show the evidence to support shao lin believe. Which Shao Lin? where? who ? when? how? a record of 350 years atleast





Thesis #1 (Hendrik) seems closer to using a rifle than #2(the VTM
phalanx) which uses a scatter gun. ----J


I believe our ancestors dont lie to us. Ip Man knows what he is talking about.




Hendrik-best to ignore VTM posts-why mud wrestle with zealots.
Best to share your insights without engaging the group think folks. You give them more attention than is necessary. ---- J


I agree with you. It is behave similar to political people in political race. trying to smearing, twisting., discrediting .... ect... all political behavior.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by reneritchie


1. Why is it okay to challenge the Ng Mui -> Wing Chun connection, but not the Shaolin -> Wing Chun connection?


(2. I have as much a political connection to Hendrik as the VTM does (probably less at it's possible they're working together to stir up controversey and attention for each other like Timberlake and Janet Jackson). I give Hendrik a harder time than the VTM, thusfar he is simply more gracious in response).



1. I hope those who propose the Shao Lin Wing Chun connection shows their pictures and the article from old shao lin to support thier claim from different sources of CMA.

This is just the first part.
It is similar to the card games, there are more evidents to come. if one can not open thier card then by default they dont have it.
I guess we can learn to do it in a sporty way, show the evidents from both thesis and let the public examine them.



2. I guess if everyone agree to the Shao Lin Wing Chun conncetion and take it as the Truth. Then everyone is not political.

I am political.
Sure, I do it for all the WCK people and the Next Generation if that is political. Let the historians write thier conclusion. My job is to reveal by phases all the informations I gather.

I am not against anyone.
I just pull the curtain. whatever there is there.

[canglong]

originally posted by hendrik
I agree with you. It is behave similar to political people in political race. trying to smearing, twisting., discrediting .... ect... all political behavior hendrik your history of bickering and making false claims is reaching legendary status as far as internet forum discussion goes!

[planetwc]

Since when are all you HFY folks experts on Cho ga Wing Chun?

When asked for more facts for your position you resort to public attacks against Hendrik as cover?

If your positon was that strong why would you need to use such tactics of personal attacks?

The photo in the HFY book (implying it is a historical picture) is a publicity still from an HK movie, and the illustrations of early practitioners are illustrations by current students.

[reneritchie]

David, please remember we are not dealing with 'HFY folks', we are dealing with beginner students (or grand students, or great grand students) who are overzealous and have too much internet access for their own good.

I do not think we have any senior (over 10 years) 'HFY folks' on this thread with whom we may converse intelligently.

In that light, I think it safe to say if there were dozens and dozens of hyperactive Yip Man, Cho, or other beginners puffed full of their own newfound joy in WCK, we'd probably suffer similar behavior (and have, as we both know, over the last 10 years).

They simply do not understand. They have not gone through what we have as part of a diverse community. They don't see it as a double standard that they can challenge the Ng Mui story but they get angry if anyone challenges Shaolin. They don't see it as a related that they insult and disrespect others constantly and yet don't get the warm fuzzy receptions they so crave in return. They don't see how ludicrous it is to claim they all individually came to the same conclusions as members of the same group, but that everyone else from separate groups who came to different conclusions or hold different opinions are some bizarre sort of x-files-like conspiracy. They don't yet know, and nothing anyone else can say or do will change that, only time.

So, IMHO, the rest of us can be far more productive if we just ignore the prattle, avoid the games, and focus exclusively on the core issues.

Is it okay to challenge the idea of a Shaolin -> Wing Chun connection?

[taltos]

I think that it is always a good thing to test (or challenge) a theory, be it a scientific, political, religious, or whatever else kind of view.

Challenging a theory (i.e. testing it to see if it hold up to scrutiny) is a win-win situation. There are two possible outcomes:

1. The theory holds up under even more pressure. Confidence in the theory improves and doubt diminishes.

2. The theory cracks under the pressure. Problems in the current theory become apparent, and the theory can be modified accordingly to reflect current evidence. Confidence may or may not improve, but doubt in the previous theory diminishes by virture of the previous theory being discarded.

I personally try to constantly challenge anything I believe or learn. Not to be confrontational or argumentative, but to keep myself honest. By doing so, I am always able to confidently state what I believe and why. Not why I am RIGHT, but why I hold that OPINION.

There is special consideration to be made when one is not speaking specifically of a scientific model in a vacuum (i.e. testing Relativity, or similar scientific models). As I'm sure everyone here is acutely aware of, when personality or culture is thrown into the mix, things get muddy and distorted. As such, it becomes necessary to utilize models of social study (or historical study) to continue on while keeping bias and personal opinion to a minimum (and I say to a minimum because even in science it can never be eliminated entirely).

This link (http://home.vtmuseum.org/information/research_approach.php) leads to an article written a few years ago that details (VERY BRIEFLY AND VERY GENERALLY, before anyone decides to nit-pick for minor details) the basic outline for the VTM's model for information gathering and evaluation. If anyone has questions about the model, or suggestions on how the model may be improved, please do not hesitate to PM or email me, or contact the VT Museum directly. Since this thread, and this forum, is not about the VTM, but is about WC, let's try to keep it limited to those modes of contact and not a public debate.

Those of us who train HFY have an unofficial slogan: "Test the structure and remove the illusion." I'm sure there are many variations on this theme out there, and that everyone who trains hold to a similar theory:

Retain what is useful and discard what is not.

Train what works.

Persue maximum efficiancy.

Etc., etc., etc. (do I hear Yul Brennar?)

As my Sisuk Jeremy Roadruck has said previously (not in these exact words, so this may just be my interpretation), the VTM's current theory is a work in progress. When the VT Musuem was first created (as far as I am aware), the theory was that WC came from the martial nun Ng Mui. Information the VTM obtained caused them to re-evaluate that theory, and they did so accordingly. The theory has been modified and refined several times (with the information made available through the Chi Sim, Hung Fa Yi, and other lineages sharing their histories, systems, and training models).

Just as I try to test each new motion, principle, technique, structure to see if it holds up to real-world, real-time, real-energy resistance and challenge when I train my Kung Fu, the VTM tries to test its theory to see if it holds up to real-world, real-time, information. When they consistently fail to disprove the theory, their confidence in the theory grows stronger and their doubt diminishes. When something doesn't seem to fit based on new, verifiable information, that aspect of the theory that doesn't fit is discarded, and the theory is refined to fit in accodance with the collected data.

I have to say that I am in COMPLETE agreement with gilsinger's earlier statement:

I personally hope that everyone's Wing Chun serves them well.

I know that the 7+ years I have spent in the Yip Man System, and the 4+ years I have spent in the Hung Fa Yi system have served me extremely well, and I am forever grateful for everything that both systems have given me. I wholeheartedly wish this same degree of satisfaction and empowerment on everyone.

Now, can't we all just get along? :confused: :D

[canglong]

originally posted by planetwc
If your positon was that strong why would you need to use such tactics of personal attacks? Responses to a post constitute attacks why are you attacking us now.
originally posted by rene ritchie
They don't see how ludicrous it is to claim they all individually came to the same conclusions as members of the same group, but that everyone else from separate groups who came to different conclusions or hold different opinions are some bizarre sort of x-files-like conspiracy. LOL, Rene, that was precious

[Gangsterfist]

Wow this thread got crazy. First of all, I think that there are obvious similarities from white crane, venomus snake, mantis, in wing chun.

A lot of the circling motions in wing chun look similar to crane techniques, along with some elbow techniques. A lot of finger strikes and palm chops look similar to snake boxing. Kicks and some foot work look similar to southern mantis style.

However, A LOT OF SYSTEMS borrowed similar techniques. The history of wing chun is a myth. No one really knows what the exact history is.

This is what I have read and heard from many different sifus and masters of wing chun.

1) Ng Mui was really a man disguised as a woman. This would support the idea that women were not allowed to train with men in a shaolin temple. Also, during this time period shaolin monks were killed on sight by the manchurians, so it can be inferred that Ng Mui was in disguise for the purpose of hiding. This is one theory, with some research behind it supporting it. Is it ture, hell if I know.

2) Since Wing Chun is such an optimized combat system, one can learn to fight from it within 6 months to one year of training. During the whole secret society and rebellion to restore the ming dynasty, it was believed wing chun was taught to small villiages to make make-shift soldiers who could fight a rebellion in 6 months. So, it is possible that Yim Wing Chun was taught this style, but perhaps not on the only purpose to defend herself against a local bully gangster. Perhaps her family was part of the rebels wanting to restore the ming dynasty? Since it was suppose to be secret only to those loyal to the mings perhaps the romantic story was created to lower suspicions???

3) If you read the VTM article then you know that some believe that Yim Wing Chun was a code name to keep the seceret kung fu system developed from the shaolin temples. That Yim Wing Chun did not really exist. It was from the always spring time temple. Again there is evidence to support this.

4) The 5 elders, did they exist? Were they another code? Well I don't think anyone has ever proved or disproved their existance. We do know the temple was burned down, but what happened after that? There is a lot of evidence referring to the red boat (or red junk) opera. Several lineages mention that wing chun practioners were involved in this.

A similar thing happened to some people I know. Some from one lineage, and some from another argued and argued politics and which system was better, and blah blah blah. I chose not to get involved is such an argument because people got jaded, and blinded from what really mattered. Do you honestly think that your great great great great grand master really cares about preserving the exact history of the lineage, or would they rather you advance the art and keep on passing it down? Now bridges were burned and bonds were broken over this and now if I were to contact one of these other lineage people to train with them, they would not give me the time of day. Not because I argued but because of my lineage, and some people that train with me were involved in the argument. That kind of egotistical elitism is not what our founding fathers (or mothers) of Wing Chun Kuen wanted.

I can't remember who posted this, I think it might have been Joy, or kathy (sorry can't remember). They reffered to an article about an egineering company that tried to recreate the wright brothers first flight. With all of our advanced technology in aerospace, aviation, aerodynamics, engineering, etc. we COULD NOT recreate the first flight of the Wright brothers. Pretty crazy huh? Why try to reinvent the wheel based off some old sayings, philosphies, concepts, and history. We should learn from one another. If I were to cross train in HFY system after learning Yip Man for many years would it improve my wing chun? More than likely, yes it would.

So, if we want to discuss possible histories of wing chun then lets do it. Its interesting I agree. All of the different lineages are wing chun, and all of them have similarities. It looks to me like tons of modern systems borrowed from white crane, not just wing chun. If we are going to bicker and argue and accuse someone of "trash talking" my lineage or my school, then we are not advancing the art. We are stuck in the past and not gaining anything from it.

To answer the original question, was the VTM disrepectful? No, they are open to corrections and other versions if you have data to back it up. So if you disagree write your thesis on the history of WCK.

Will we ever know the true history of WCK? Ask yourself if it really matters?

[reneritchie]

Hey Taltos, nice to see you posting.

[desertwingchun2]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Hello David,


What about the White Crane people? Why do they lay claim to creating Japanese arts and not Wing Chun?

The lay claim to both! White Crane and its San Chin set show a clear connection to the Okinawan arts and then of course the Japanese which stem from the Okinawan's. Then you can also see that they, the White Crane people, list Wing Chun as a relative of their art. .... .....


Just some thoughts!


Gotta walk!

hehe

Hello Jim, thanks for the interest and sharing. You are correct regarding the Okinawan and Japanese arts. White Crane is credited heavily with aiding in their creation. However, even as you just stated, many times it has been said that Wing Chun and Southern White Crane are related. Therein lies the difference.

-David

[duende]

Thank you Gangsterfist for your kind and thoughtful words.


Planet WC,

The historical pictures you are referring to actually were provided by the Chinese Wing Chun Museum, and the Chinese government after they uncovered the Hung Fa Ting.

I suggest spending less time in the movies. Those of us in the Bay Area are particularly tired of this kind of nonsense being posted by some of the Ken Chung/Ben Durr student camp.


Rene,

I actually started my WC training in 1984. And I've been with HFY since before we went public. Yet still, I would never try to display myself as some self-proclaimed WC authority the way you do. But that is probably due to our different WC backgrounds isn't it???

This thread of yours is more suitable for your WCML. Posting your backhanded political crap on any other truly public forum is likely to be received worse than here. But you already know that don't you.

[Jim Roselando]

Hey David!


Hello Jim, thanks for the interest and sharing.

Thats what we are all here for!

You are correct regarding the Okinawan and Japanese arts. White Crane is credited heavily with aiding in their creation.

Indeed

However, even as you just stated, many times it has been said that Wing Chun and Southern White Crane are related. Therein lies the difference.

Well, maybe I should have wrote that better. Most list WC as an off-shoot of White Crane. Yang JM even wrote in his "Shaolin White Crane" book that Wing Chun was a sub-branch of White Crane. Most Crane folk acknowledge this or "claim" our roots come from them.

A few of the things that stand out to me versus the other south fist would be body positioning. While Mantis, Dragon, Whitebrow etc. all maintain the forward hardbow posture I can see that the Crane lines up just like we do with the Bai He and K1 on the same line. We are just more compact/softer. Crane, like many arts, pull up their power and gather/release thru waist/spine/chest fa jin. Same goes for my Leung Jan Wing Chun and others (please lets not bicker over this body usage in WC) (if anyone wants to discuss it, please start a new thread). Crane sets were based on Ging patterns. Same goes for WC. 98% of all WC lineage (Yip, Yuen, Cho, Koo Lo, etc) state Ng Mui as the source. Yang Jwing Ming and others state Fang Chi Niang was the root. White Crane was obviously around or practiced by the Red Boat people so?? Lots of stuff to think about and talk about.


Ok. If Wing Chun is not from Crane then which art (or arts) were part of its birth/roots?


Gotta walk,

[anerlich]

I think a fair answer to your question(s) is that it will be objective, from the VTM's point of view, since it is their seminar, and they have a great familiarity with everything they will be introducing. Since you do not agree with them, you will not consider it objective. It is possible that the VTM might not be able to flick a lightswitch or shovel snow from it's front step without it being portrayed in a negative light by certain people, but I'm sure that they will continue to do what they feel is right, and there will always be those that disagree.

Gilsinger,

I appreciate your patience and conciliatory tone.

I put it to you, though, that the VT Museum has put its cards on the table in the book detailing its political stance. The views stated therein about "Popular Wing Chun", Bruce Lee, other historians etc. can hardly be defended as the results of rigorous research or scholarship. They are political opinions, pure and simple. It beggars belief that their students can turn inquisitor regarding political agenda when their seniors are just as bad as any accusee.

I am sure that Benny and Richard turn on lights and shovel snow like anyone else does, and they are kind to children, small animals, their wives and students, etc.

However, IMO, what they wrote in the book has compromised their credibility when it comes to treating objectively WC lineages other than those to which they have hitched their current wagon.

Still, they're not the first (look at William Cheung and the Trad/Mod controversy - pity Benny and Richard couldn't learn any lessons from history, despite their alleged avid studies thereof) and are unlikely to be the last.

As one of my teachers said to me once, "only a fool listens to the braying of the a$$". Like many others on this forum, and Benny and Richard, and William Cheung, I've on occasion been both fool and a$$, and will try in future to treat this subject as the storm in a teacup that it actually is.

[desertwingchun2]

Hey Jim! "Most Crane folk acknowledge this or "claim" our roots come from them." - J.R

We must agree to disagree on this point. Most White Crane people very openly acknowledge the role White Crane played in the development of Okanawin and Japanese arts. However, one is hard pressed to find White Crane people who will make the same claim of White Crane being the roots of Wing Chun.

"Crane sets were based on Ging patterns." - J.R

Hmmm ?? Which one of the more than 80 sets in particular?? It is well documented that the White Crane sets were designed to teach application. The second half of the forms represent the "counters" to applications found in the first half. This holds true for both the empty hand and weapons forms.

"Same goes for WC." - J.R

Really? Most say that SLT, CK, BJ are an "encyclopedia" of techniques or an expression of the concepts and priciples of which WC is based. Interesting. Are Ging patterns the focus of Leung Jan Wing Chun forms?

"98% of all WC lineage (Yip, Yuen, Cho, Koo Lo, etc) state Ng Mui as the source. Yang Jwing Ming and others state Fang Chi Niang was the root. " - J.R

Chu Ga Tong Long also claims their art was founded by a female, Leow Fah Chih Koo and surprise she was a Shaolin monk escaping from the burning southern temple. So just because both have female heroines, doesn't point to any definitive link.

"Ok. If Wing Chun is not from Crane then which art (or arts) were part of its birth/roots?" - J.R

Only our Shaolin ancestors know. :)

-David

[canglong]

Chu Ga Tong Long also claims their art was founded by a female, Leow Fah Chih Koo and surprise she was a Shaolin monk escaping from the burning southern temple. So just because both have female heroines, doesn't point to any definitive link. Jim, David,
Thanks for the info interesting 3 different stories Ng Mui, Fang Chi Niang and now Leow Fah Chih Koo all referencing one shaolin.

[gilsinger]

Originally posted by anerlich


Gilsinger,

I appreciate your patience and conciliatory tone.


anerlich,
I also appreciate the effort to discuss even these controversial matters with an air of goodwill. I am not charged to speak on behalf of HFY, although I am a student, and a person who values harmony.

If the writers of Mastering Kung Fu have made claims that have offended you, I'm not going to tell you that you're right or wrong to feel offended. The fact is, you're offended. I can only hope that everyone considers everyone else's position as best they can, and that in the future everyone will understand each other better.

Meanwhile, I'm just a student. I just keep going to class.

The mudslinging is just non-productive. Going nowhere. I get no thrill from being angry and marvelling at the sharpness of my own tongue, so I tend not to go that route. I know that this bickering goes back a long way, which makes it difficult to stop for all who are involved in it.

Hopefully with more diplomacy in these discussions, there could actually be some progress in the right direction. Pushing people's buttons and spitting on their loyalties is the wrong direction.

Take care,
-jess

[Ultimatewingchun]

Listen...instead of endless arguments about historical/lineage/my wc is better than your wc (no matter how disguised)...because mine comes directly from Shaolin - and yours doesn't - and I have this and that wonderful "thing" in my system - that you don't have...and you're a hyocrite and I'm not...

Instead of all of this ENDLESS crap that goes on ad infinitum, and ad nauseum...

How about this - as a means of channelling the "debate" to a much more constructive outlet - where actions will speak INFINITELY louder than words or questionable "history" books...

an annual, all-wing chun FIGHTING tournament.

Not a forms demo...not a chi sao demo or competition...not a weapons demo...not hour-and-a half lectures about the history and principles of one's own version of the art...

But 4 weight divisions:

Lightweight........................130-149 lbs.
Middleweight......................150-169 lbs.
Lightheavyweight...............170-189 lbs.
Heavyweight.......................190 lbs. and above

Each fight is one three-minute round. Contestants will use very light MMA-type gloves (wherein much of the fingers are exposed).
They will also wear knee pads - as kicks to the legs while wearing an agreed upon lightweight shoe or sneaker will be allowed. No strikes/kicks to the groin are allowed...and elbows only to the body. No strikes or kicks allowed to the back or top of the head.

And headgear that includes a cage surrouding the face (a hockey-mask cage is the best...vision is not really impaired, and it gives complete protection for the face).

Sweeps, throws, and takedowns will be allowed...but the fighters will then be reset in the standing position - and extra points given to the man who performed the move.

Three judges - the referee and two others who stand at each end of the mat...the size of which is to be mutually determined. (Two judges would aloow for too many "draws".

Judges will be instructed to allow for one point to be awarded for each blow struck that "seems solid". Two points for the takedown.

Only one student from ANY GIVEN LINEAGE can participate in EACH of the four weight divisions....ie...

Only one per weight division representing TWC,HFY, YKS, Leung Ting, Emin Boztepe, Moy Yat, Wong Shun Leung, etc...

I realize this allows more Yip Man lineage participants than non-Yip Man...but I really don't see any other fair way to do it given all the different schools that trace their roots back to one student or another of Yip Man....

I am NOT volunteering myself to run such an event here in NYC - I have no time to organize such a thing...but I will certainly be willing to travel and bring some of my students along.

NOW....HERE'S POSSIBLY THE BIGGEST THING OF ALL TO CONSIDER...

in terms of fairness and objectivity...We pay some mutually agreed upon KARATE instructors to organize and run the event...including, of course...acting as referees and judges.

Now before anyone scoffs at this last point...keep in mind that Karate people have been doing this kind of thing for MANY decades...their have the know-how and experience to make it work.

THIS WAS THE SATURDAY PROGRAM.

On Sunday...only the shools from which the four winners came from will be allowed to put on a 45 minute demo (forms, chi sao, talk, whatever)...with a 15 minute break in-between each demo.

This kind of thing would go a long way toward shutting up alot of BULLSH#T talk....

NOW PEOPLE WILL HAVE TO WALK...THE WALK.

[Grendel]

This is supposed to be a Wing Chun tourney and you're suggesting gloves. Nix the gloves.

How about holding it in Macao?

Regards,

[Ultimatewingchun]

Grendel:

You want to up the ante because you're serious or because you want to dynamite the whole idea ?

And one more thing......Macao ???!!!

[planetwc]

The photograph on page 44 (figure 2.14) of the 2 people by a jong in sepai tone, from the movie "Nam Kuen Wong". That photo was discussed several years ago on the WCML.

The other items I referenced were the following drawings:

Figure 2.9 on page 39.
Figure 2.12 on page 42.
Figure 2.16 on page 46.

I'm sorry you are tired, however my teacher's name is Ben Der, not Ben Durr.


Originally posted by duende
Thank you Gangsterfist for your kind and thoughtful words.


Planet WC,

The historical pictures you are referring to actually were provided by the Chinese Wing Chun Museum, and the Chinese government after they uncovered the Hung Fa Ting.

I suggest spending less time in the movies. Those of us in the Bay Area are particularly tired of this kind of nonsense being posted by some of the Ken Chung/Ben Durr student camp.

[anerlich]

Victor,

Good idea - I'd have to say no kicks to the knee, though thigh kicks and sweeps are OK. Otherwise the orthopaedic surgeons will be kept very busy with knee reconstructions. Even thrust kicks to the thighs can do knee damage.

I think you have to have gloves if you allow hand contact to the head, lest some do-gooder get you shut down. Kyokushin fight bare handed but only allow kicks to the head, no punches.

I think the idea of this proving the supremacy of a particular lineage is fanciful, but if managed properly it could lead to better relationships between lineages. I'd expect the winners to come from a variety of schools, rather than just one.

Macau? Don't know exactly what the deal is with that, but in hindsight Asia wouldn't be a bad idea, it is where the art originated. Certainly the U.S. shouldn't be an automatic choice.

Some lineages find competition abhorrent and counter to what they say WC is; they probably should consider the benefits of sporting competition to character development. Certain people thrive on it, and a good Sifu will make as many opportunities for growth as possible available to a student .

Never happen, but it's an interesting idea.

[Phenix]

First of all, I think that there are obvious similarities from white crane, venomus snake, mantis, in wing chun.---------

Not True, if you check out their different of the body structure,some of these styles have head learn forward, some have the upper body concave in.

Some doesnt follow the Center line characteristics.

It is not that difficult to see the different, if the spine and head connection is different, the power issuing must be different. thus, even the using the same hand shapes. it is a different art.

Those who does understand jing identity can trace Jing DNA easily. Based on spine/ head connection or the use of the 3 yings/3yang medirians models as observation vectors. Simple as that.





A lot of the circling motions in wing chun look similar to crane techniques, along with some elbow techniques. A lot of finger strikes and palm chops look similar to snake boxing. Kicks and some foot work look similar to southern mantis style. ---------


It is not about a single movemen, it is every style has a specific rules on how to handle body structure, jing, and application preference based on
the specialily of body structure and jing identity.



Just by look at a chi sau or SLT picture one can "see" if other art is mix in it or not. For example, if one doesnt address certain aspect of structure on how to work with the "wholeness" of power , by default, generally, one will move to a wider stance to do SLT . because one feel one got power by exanding one's based one thought that is the way, thus, lots of time, shao lin or hung gar stances were used. what the treat of of going this path is wck no longer be compact. but loosen up the gap between legs for grapper to take advantage of. thus people who practice slt in wide stance, due to the habit, generally, have a tendency of being vonuable to the grapper take down.



I shift this to under the WCK Jing identity topic for technical comparison a step two on looking into wck connection technically.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by planetwc
Since when are all you folks experts on Cho ga Wing Chun?



David, they dont even know the basic :D

[Jim Roselando]

Hi David,


We must agree to disagree on this point.

Thats ok! We are all adults. jr

Most White Crane people very openly acknowledge the role White Crane played in the development of Okanawin and Japanese arts. However, one is hard pressed to find White Crane people who will make the same claim of White Crane being the roots of Wing Chun.

You should purchase Shaolin White Crane by Yang Jwing Ming as one source for Zong He crane info.. Granted its not the Bak Hok Weng Chun version but a good refernce! jr

Hmmm ?? Which one of the more than 80 sets in particular??

Well, lets start with the first one: San Chin (aka The vibration set). Read Yang's book for more info.. The same goes for Mantis Som Bo Gin. Its main point would certainly be about gathering and releasing energy. jr

It is well documented that the White Crane sets were designed to teach application. The second half of the forms represent the "counters" to applications found in the first half. This holds true for both the empty hand and weapons forms.

Doesn't make sense and if it was true that would make Crane a Technique based art. I look at it a bit different and some of my Crane friends also tell me the same thing. Crane is not technique based or forms that teach application. Crane sets teach you how to issue body force (Ging). jr


Really? Most say that SLT, CK, BJ are an "encyclopedia" of techniques or an expression of the concepts and priciples of which WC is based. Interesting.

This is true! No argument here but to me its more than that. Lets take SLT/CK/BJ as examples. SLT is our root. Not only is it an encyclopedia but it the longest force in WC. Most of its skills send power to the longest point which is the fist. So, thats basic ging numero uno. Next we have Chum Kiu which build on the SLT. Besides the normal stuff we can clearly see that CK cultivates the next stage of Ging development which would be medium or elbow Ging. Lots of turning/torquing Lan Sao's etc. etc.. So, thats Ging numero doce. Finally we have Biu Jee. Biu Jee brings you to the last stage of body powering (among the other normally discussed stuff). BJ brings us close and personal with extra sharp close quater Ging. Get what I am driving at??? jr

Are Ging patterns the focus of Leung Jan Wing Chun forms?

One of the main focus points. jr

Chu Ga Tong Long also claims their art was founded by a female, Leow Fah Chih Koo and surprise she was a Shaolin monk escaping from the burning southern temple. So just because both have female heroines, doesn't point to any definitive link.

We have all heard this type of story before but the fact is; Before Lau Sui began using this name there was no Royal (Chu) Family Mantis and my old Mantis sifu, who is living/researching in China for the last two years, also states that Elder Chu Gar people (behind closed doors) all acknowledge Jook Lum as the original South Mantis. jr

Only our Shaolin ancestors know.

This is where you need to do some research. We all have a root. No art just pops up out of the blue. No art has zero connections to its root. There must be certain terms/language, skills, ways of moving, forms patterns, numerology, etc. that connect. The Wing Chunners that believe Crane is the root state this or that to show connections etc.. The people who believe Shaolin is the root need to do the same thing otherwise its just a theory. How else do you expect people to recieve your theory???


Gotta walk!


See ya,

[WCis4me]

First of all........has anyone, who has put so much time and effort into this particular thread seen improvement in their WC from posting on it or reading it? Doubt it, your WC wont improve because you KNOW you are right and feel you should be heard regarding history. Mind you if you get off your HIGH HORSE and starting working your real WC horse you might get much further in your TRUE knowledge of WC.
Evolution touches everything. WC is not exempt. It has roots, but so do we as a people. We all, as the human race, have similarities but we all have differences as well. Is there anything useful for me to find out that my mother or father are direct decendents of people who fought in cave #3 and took it over? Does it mean that I am third in line to the throne and therefore am closer than the decendents of cave #4 to being pure and unattainable? Uh NO!
Your WC is YOUR WC. It is a personal walk. Just because your teacher has the original knowledge and is a master doesn't mean that you will grasp it and / or master it in the same way.
So really who cares if people think the VTM is being disrespectful because they believe in what they believe or some people think they aren't being disrespectful, or if joe blow has the what they think is the 'real thing' or some people dont think that is right? Does what those people think/say directly affect you and your personal journey with your WC? Will being able to finally prove that you are right save you from that carjacker or help you live longer? If it doesn't then why worry about it. If it works for you it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't so find something else that works for you.
I can visualize some of you being the type of person that would watch joe from cubicle 4 in the corner go to the managers office and then talk about it for the next 6 months at the water cooler to anyone who will listen, trying to find the deeper meaning of it all. It is called being a busybody who has nothing better to do than find fault with others and argue about it to make themselves feel better.
All this griping, it is like some of you think you have the 'power' of the universe in the palms of your hand and are trying desperately to convince the world and save it from itself, that it is your duty to accomplish this before you can obtain complete 'enlightenment'. This is like a soap opera (gawd I hate those things) exact same drama unfolding for months and months never culminating with a point.
Funny, I thought this was a Wing Chun forum not a politcal debate forum on free speech and thought. Guess I was wrong because there are 6 pages devoted to this nonsense.
It (this particular thread) is pointless and simply not efficient and therefore has no real WC behind it.

Victor: Here here!!! on the Tourney idea, first good topic and the only one with any 'real' WC merit in it that I have read so far in this particular thread.

Rene: 6 pages and only one objection from you to the thread being hijacked and going way off course? Sedatary action like that will have people convinced that you started this to create conflict amongst your brothers and sisters for your entertainment.

Phenix:

It is not about a single movemen, it is every style has a specific rules on how to handle body structure, jing, and application preference based on
Doesn't that completely contradict you using still pictures (no matter how old) to support your thesis?

In closing, c'mon guys and gals (notice the gals didn't partake in this nonsense except me of course lol. Actually though there are some definate names of regular posters missing from all the 6 pages of this thread, coincidence, I think not, seems to me that they are always the ones who have the most to offer to people really wanting to improve thier WC, and never bother with this kind of nonsense) lets celebrate the differences and similarities instead of constantly bickering about them. Instead of taking 10 deep breaths when you feel the need to take the bait, do 10 SLT's. Bet you will be calmer and no longer feel the need to feed in the frenzy.


Vicky

[reneritchie]

1. The WCML is now known as the WCKML, and interestingly enough, Terence, Zopa, Hendrik, Robert, Joy, Bob M., Andrew N., Jim R., and no longer members (though of course, they, like anyone else are welcome back any time). Unfortunately, this might cause the x-files wannabes to have to search desperately for new conspiracy theories. Watching FOX network or Jerry Springer might help.

2. Tournaments are fun, but Vanderlais Silva or Kazushi Sakuraba could enter and likely beat the everlovin' shnot out of any WCK person who enters, but that would not mean they had better, truer, more historic WCK, just that they were better fighters. Method and attainment are involved but ultimately (no pun intended to poster or promotion) separate things.

3. While my siblings can be entertaining, threads like this are an expensive price to pay for a little song and dance. I started the thread because I was frustrated at the apparent double standard that caused me (and others) to be trolled whenever we tried to share a point of view that differed from a small army of passionate posters. However, I'm not sure what at this point will achieve a betterment of the situation.

[duende]

Listen Rene,

You started this thread within hours of your last "proof of shaolin wing chun" thread got deleted.

I have yet to see any threads like that or this current one of yours being posted by any of my HFY brothers. We have even pretty much left your "analysing shaolin wing chun" thread alone.

NO, don't try to shrug this off on us. YOU brought this on yourself because of YOUR imature behavior.

I suggest that you delete this thread, so we can all move on.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando

This is where you need to do some research. We all have a root. No art just pops up out of the blue. No art has zero connections to its root. There must be certain terms/language, skills, ways of moving, forms patterns, numerology, etc. that connect.


The Wing Chunners that believe Crane is the root state this or that to show connections etc..

The people who believe Shaolin is the root need to do the same thing otherwise its just a theory.

How else do you expect people to recieve your theory???





Jim,

I Agree,

get technical.


The people who believe Shaolin is the root need to do the same thing otherwise its just a theory.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by WCis4me
.

Phenix:

Doesn't that completely contradict you using still pictures (no matter how old) to support your thesis?


Vicky


Nope, connect 3 well purpose still pictures from 3 diferent people, there lay suttle subject what one cannot "see".

[desertwingchun2]

Hi Jim,

"You should purchase Shaolin White Crane by Yang Jwing Ming as one source for Zong He crane info.. Granted its not the Bak Hok Weng Chun version but a good refernce!" - jr

Don't see the relevence. The original point is that White Crane has direct and documented influence on the creation of Okinawan and Japanese arts. The same does not hold true for White Crane influence on the creation of Wing Chun. Again, let's just agree to disagree on this point.

"Doesn't make sense and if it was true that would make Crane a Technique based art. I look at it a bit different and some of my Crane friends also tell me the same thing. Crane is not technique based or forms that teach application. Crane sets teach you how to issue body force (Ging)." - jr

Sorry, it doesn't make sense to you but it is true! Just because the forms are based on technique does not mean the whole system is. You can look at it any way you want to, that won't change the way the forms were designed.

"This is true! No argument here but to me its more than that."- jr

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but let's not discuss our opinions as fact.

"One of the main focus points." - jr

So ging patterns are one of the main focus points not what the forms are based on! That is quite a difference from your original staement. Thank you for your honesty.

"We have all heard this type of story before but the fact is .... " - jr

The story referenced was only to highlight the fact that many different systems have female heroines in their creation stories. So a simple connection in that manner is not necessarily strong connection.

"Before Lau Sui ..... Elder Chu Gar people (behind closed doors) all acknowledge Jook Lum as the original South Mantis."- jr

Wing Chun has it's own politics. Discussing others is not something beneficial to anyone.

"No art just pops up out of the blue. No art has zero connections to its root. There must be certain terms/language, skills, ways of moving, forms patterns, numerology, etc. that connect." - jr

The passion you have for our great system is very evident in your words. However, so is the frustration of not knowing "where you come from". We share in the former not the latter. Thereby, I stand by my original answer to your original question.

Thanks for the discussion.

-David

[Ultimatewingchun]

Vicky: Thanks for the endorsement.

Andrew Nerlich:

Gloves are an absolute must - for the reasons you gave. I think the low kicks could be done - my students and I spar while wearing shin pads (optional)...but we also wear foam knee pads under our pants and heavy-duty plastic knee pads on the outside of the pants A little bulky...

but the knees are protected in this manner to a great extent. (Would hate to take low kicks away from a wing chun fighter !)

As to the location - you're right - the United States shouldn't be a given...

True...it wouldn't necessarily prove that one style is superior to the others - but might go a long way toward calming down some folks who think that their style is "naturally" the best - if they didn't win...or worse yet...if all their fighters lost in the first round of competition. Think about it.

Now, here's a bigger question - not necessarily directed at yourself:

WHY IS SUCH AN IDEA SO DEAD IN THE WATER ???

There are so many wing chun people who think they're above it all - hiding behind the EXCUSE that the system is "too deadly"..."it's not made for tournaments"..."it goes against our principles"..."our ancestors wouldn't approve"...

HOGWASH !

[reneritchie]

There is a pretty well established MMA circuit these days, with small events dotted all over North America. If someone really had so fancy keen a system, it would be a simple matter (and priceless publicity) to enter King of the Cage, TKO, Superbrawl, IFC, WEC, RITC, Extreme, or one of countless events and decimate a few opponents on the way to UFC gold.

Every art has super secret deadly techniques (bjj can bite your ear, wrestling can chin you in the eye, boxing can smash you in the base of the skull, etc.), but timing, accuracy, striking power, etc. are rule-less. Heck, Vitor Belfort just stopped Randy Couture in 40 seconds or so with a single Biu Jee to the eye in the UFC. Go crazy.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Rene:

Walnuts....!!!

I think you're changing the subject...The UFC, PRIDE, etc...has nothing to do with what I'm proposing.

Two separate issues entirely.

Listen...Rene...and you other folks...

What I'm suggesting would not only be a way of perhaps helping to bring these forum discussions back down to earth...(It would be difficult to claim "superiority" every other day after all your fighters just got a whoopin')...

But might also build some hands-on goodwill and mutual respect between lineages that doesn't really exist right now.

Did anyone notice the mutual respect and hand-shaking going on between the two teams at the conclusion of the Superbowl ?

As well as an ongoing (annual) opportunity to share principles, training methods, and techniques that, in the end - might produce BETTER wing chun practitoners...

Competition (when done right) almost always breeds a higher LEVEL OF EXCELLENCE.

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by Phenix
First of all, I think that there are obvious similarities from white crane, venomus snake, mantis, in wing chun.---------

Not True, if you check out their different of the body structure,some of these styles have head learn forward, some have the upper body concave in.



Sure they do, depends on which wing chun lineage you look at too. Look at Augustine Fong, his stance ever so slightly back weighted. He is from YM lineage as well as I am. My triangle footwork is always 50/50, so we are trained to never back, or forward weigh yourself. Also you will notice some slightly curve the spine back, to perhaps maybe better defend the body against blows to the abdomen.

Also in the Pao Fa Lien pictures I have seen in books their foot work is different shifting weight from one side to another.

However, this argument is old and tiresome and I have had nothing but bad experiences. Why can't us wing chun'ners just go back to arguing with the BJJ guys on how ground fighitng sucks?

Lineage doesn't mean a **** thing, train hard and you will be good at wing chun.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello David,



Don't see the relevence.

Perhaps I should have explained myself better. jr

The original point is that White Crane has direct and documented influence on the creation of Okinawan and Japanese arts. The same does not hold true for White Crane influence on the creation of Wing Chun.

This is why I suggested you puchasedd Yang's book. You asked for ducumentation or some Crane people claiming influence on the creation and that would be one source. jr

Again, let's just agree to disagree on this point.

Its Ok to agree to disagree but I think we just might be not understanding each other. Hopefully that helps. jr

Sorry, it doesn't make sense to you but it is true! Just because the forms are based on technique does not mean the whole system is. You can look at it any way you want to, that won't change the way the forms were designed.

Well, I am not looking at it any way I want to but the way my Crane friends tell me to look at it. Which is probally the reason you look at it the way you do. Both can be right. jr

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but let's not discuss our opinions as fact.

Once again. My thoughts are based on the info. I discuss/read about from Crane and not my own opinion. jr

So ging patterns are one of the main focus points not what the forms are based on! That is quite a difference from your original staement. Thank you for your honesty.

David, all motions, forms, sets, whatever have numerous focal points. Dictionary, Concepts, Principles, Ging Patters, etc. etc. can all be and are all part of ones Kung Fu. Some may stress certain things more than others and vise versa. Certainly there are only so many ways a human body can issue and recieve force thru ones method/art. Part of any Kung Fu is the focus of Developing the body to send/recieve power. Yes, in my art Ging patterns are built right into the art and if you can see the progression of WC forms the body ging is being cultivating in three different stage of torque. Are they soley Ging patterns? No but indeed a core element. Even Wong Nim Yi sifu states in a flyer of his that SLT/CK/BJ are different fighting ranges of development. So, perhaps I should have been more clear and not just stated one thing. jr


The passion you have for our great system is very evident in your words.

I think we all love what we do! Respect to WCK!

However, so is the frustration of not knowing "where you come from".

I cant agree with you on this. The historical story we, and most others, preserve is all to in-tune with the stylistic similarities of our ancestors. I would hope that in the future some new info. will surface and it wont only be the Shaolin Ancestors only knowing the roots. jr

We share in the former not the latter. Thereby, I stand by my original answer to your original question.

We agree to disagree. jr

Thanks for the discussion.

Dito. jr


Regards,

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist


Sure they do, depends on which wing chun lineage you look at too. Look at .......Also in the Pao Fa Lien pictures I have seen in books their foot work is different shifting weight from one side to another.

However, this argument is old and tiresome and I have had nothing but bad experiences. Why can't us wing chun'ners just go back to arguing with the BJJ guys on how ground fighitng sucks?

Lineage doesn't mean a **** thing, train hard and you will be good at wing chun.


You have a great point on WCK.
That's why I post before if your have notice. EVIDENCE before 1960. And preferebelly, EVIDENT close to 1900's.

Some of Pao Fa Lien today claim what was taught by Mok Pui On is not proper. and Even in my own Cho family, Things get mix up....

So, we have to look at before 1960 when GM Yip Man's generation was still alive.


Lineage can mean alots of thing and can mean nothing. Depend on how much one can tap into the Lineage Power which is the core of the art.


Train hard is must but people can train hard but still without a good technical platform. A more then 10 years kung fu man can easily be knocked out by younger Thai Boxer in the 70's and taken down by Grapper today.

Doesnt mean the Kung Fu man doesnt train hard?


Just for fun of discussion, since you bring up the weighting.... leaning forward backward....ect..

what is your view on how to join or link or alignt your head with your spine? See spine is the link of the body. Head is the director. This is fundametal. If we dont address this, the body might be in an unknown state of linking. We better make sure we know how to link or align our own body before we go tell anything to BJJ. :D


Now another item for the Shao Lin Wing Chun theoritis need to support tp adress beside :
the earlier pictures ,
the writing from other styles ,
is the alignment of Head and Spine.



Just somethought.

[reneritchie]

Victor, my post was agreeing with you.

[Gangsterfist]

Hendrick,

You seem to have a lot of knowledge of the history of kung fu. I am not arguing that your points are not valid. History is indeed interesting and important in some ways. It does preserve the art, and also keeps the names of the people who dedicated their lives to it and made it possible for us to train in it today. Sometimes your posts are a bit hard to follow at first so I am guessing that english is not your first language, and thats okay with me english is a hard language to learn. So there might be a bit of a communication barrier between you and some of the other posters. But, why dwell in the past? Why trace wing chun back to shaolin? Does it change wing chun? Will it change your style and make it better or worse? The answer is no. However, it seems everything I love is always somewhat ruined by human nature, even kung fu.

/unsubscribe to the thread.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
Hendrick,

But, why dwell in the past?
Why trace wing chun back to shaolin?
Does it change wing chun?
Will it change your style and make it better or worse? The answer is no. However, it seems everything I love is always somewhat ruined by human nature, even kung fu.

/unsubscribe to the thread.

You are right, There are communication barrier.
For example, when I talked about the anatomy of Shark some think I am talking about a small fish in the bow. and trying to comment on my SLT. obviously he never see shark before.


May be because we don't even know how to align our spine and head in the set call the Little Training Head? :D

and a different way of head and spine alignment doesnt called Little Traininng Head anymore? :D

Dont you want to find out how the head of the Little Training Head need to be place? :D

[yuanfen]

Gangsterfist sez:
Look at Augustine Fong, his stance ever so slightly back weighted.

He is from YM lineage as well as I am. My triangle footwork is always 50/50, so we are trained to never back, or forward weigh yourself.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
A polite comment. I dont know how you draw your "inference".
Re.Augustine Fong.
In the ygkym or ck? Simply not so. He is not only 50-50- but
he is relaxed, focused, balanced and yet structurally "solid" and alive in his ygkym rooting.
There are tangible indicators of the details of stancing.
Inferences from pictures can be deceptive.

[Gangsterfist]

Just one last point.

I have never trained with augustine fong, but I do own an 8 DVD set of him doing forms drills, wooden dummy, etc. He looks back weighted slightly on this dvd set. So its a total of like 20 hours of footage or something like that, with augustine fong in every second of it. That is where I draw my inference.

He is my sigongs kung fu brother and my direct lineage, I was told that his 50/50 triangle foot work is not 50/50 its like 55/45 just not evenly weighted. Then again we could just be arguing semantics.

[PaulH]

Hendrik,

Due to my bad posture of a lifetime habit, my head tends to lean too much forward like a grappler's or a predator's which makes me somewhat naturally aggressive. I'm interested in your view of "how the head of the Little Training Head need to be place? " Balance is never easy. The more you try to grab it it just slips away from your fingers like sand.

Regards,
PH

P.S. It would be great if you post under your other thread of Jing topic as it is somewhat unrelated to the current thread. Thanks.

[yuanfen]

Gangsterfist-
I cant comment on what you have been told or what you think you see.
I am not arguing with your perceptions.

Appearances/perceptions can be deceptive.

Working with someone gives one a better idea.

In ygkym and chor ma he is 50/50 all the way around the mother line..
There are tests for that.

Weights can change with bjd and kwan work as part of adjustments and also one legged stances also involve adjustments-
so also in various phases of contact work.

He has an annual instruction module and seminar in Tucson in late April and early may- would be a good way to see it and discuss it for yourself, if you are interesed.

[Gangsterfist]

Okay sounds good you can email or PM me the info. I will talk with my sifu maybe we can get a class trip out there or something.

[Gangsterfist]

Sorry,

To clarify a previous statement reguarding those Augustine Fong DVDs....

the YJKGYM is 50/50 no doubt. Some of his pressing stances or attacking stances are a bit back weighted. Its a very slight difference, but obvious. My only visual reference is off the DVD. He has one of his students on the DVD doing sparring techniques, the student also when in pressing stances looks a tad back weighted.

Other than that he does look to be 50/50 in a lot of other stances, its only in a few peticular which is different from what I was taught. I am not saying one is right and one is wrong, I am just acknowledging a difference. If I ever get a chance to train with Fong I would definately ask him and show me in person what the stance truly was. It very may well be a deceptive looking stance or camera glitch, or whatever.

[roache]

Re: Fong's dvd.
in the very first dvd (fundamentals, I think) the voice over describes 60/40 weighting (in application, not ygkym which is no doubt 50/50). Now days Sifu Fong teaches 50/50. I asked him about this change and he described it as an evolution/refinement in his teaching. Basically we train for 50/50, but appreciate that in application you have in essence upto 60/40 as a grace period.
This is only my interpretaion of his teaching.

si-dai emmet

[Gangsterfist]

Roache:

Thanks for the clarification. Those DVDs are a nice set of visual references when training and you cannot get in touch with a sifu. My sifu just warned me when using the DVDs as a training tool, don't train the 60/40 stance, train 50/50.

The DVDs however are still great.