Dit Da Jow...

[NyHc]

I was wondering if someone out there could give me some insight on how, and with what materials, Dit Do Jow is prepared with?
Also...What is its actually purpose?
I'm sorry to say that I'm a little ignorant on the topic - Especially since I constantly use it myself. My Sifu just told me to apply it whenever I got bruised up or had an injury of sorts. However, he really never got to tell me exactly what it does.
I'd appreciate any info you could give me...

[Kung Lek]

Hi.

It is good that you have a sifu who gives you dit da jow for bruises and aching muscles and what not.

There are quite a variety of recipes for dit da jow.
Some are for more superficial hematomas while some act very deep in the body on bone and sinew repair.

dit Da Jow or "Iron Hit Wine" is described as external medicines in general "Tieh Tah" Jow=wine or the vehivle which carries the medicine (usually alcohol, often tijmes clear like distilled wine or vodka or something of the like)

what it does in the case of bruises, is speed up blodd flow to the effected area and breakdown any blood cells that are clooting together to form the bruise which is an internal scar.

The Dit Da Jow prevents this scar from staying and the area is rehabilatated without adversity.

There are quite a variety, but the basic use in the practice of Kung fu is to relieve blood stasis, increase blood flow and induce quicker healing.
There are a few brands that have been around and can be purchased in a chinese grocery or apothecary. But if your Si Fu has been handed down a recipe that is specifically made to help with an aspect of the style or system you [practice then it is best to use that jow.

Perhaps one day, your sifu will give you the recipe.

peace

Kung Lek

[JE]

Die Da Jiu can be made with a huge variety of ingredients depending on the intended use. In martial arts we often see it used in conjunction with various body conditioning exercises such as sam sing, wooden man, iron palm, iron shin, etc. When we use a liniment for this type of training it must contain speficic herbs to strengthen the sinews and bones as well as promote blood circulation. When it is used to treat an acute injury such as a broken bone, severe sprain or a strained muscle it must contain other herbs to help clear inflammation and swelling. In both cases the core of herbs will be blood quickening herbs that promote circulation, clear bruising, and ease pain.

On a side note many traditional formulas contain toxic ingredients which can be difficult to obtain from your average Chinese owned herbal pharmacy. If you have a connection to a pharmacy through your teacher it will make the process MUCH easier.

If your more interested about hit medicine (Shang Ke Xue)- the branch of TCM that treats injuries and such check out the medicine page of www.hunggakuen.com (http://www.hunggakuen.com) Feel free to contact me with any questions.

regards,

Justin

[Pilgrim]

Here's a curiosity, can you id the ingredients. My materia medicas ( Hsu, Bensky, Yeung) aren't written in this transliteration.
Poison Hand: 1/1oth teal pee chaiu, suh chuan, chye.2/10th Tael: Yellow keng chye, chuan Shee Tuan(no oil), kam chou,chye chang poe, moe yew,tze lan tong, phang gua, wild wolf's tooth, claw of tiger, tsang juke, kai tong pee, faeng fong, rue shiang, tze yen rong chye er chean, chain lian chean, too chong, tonk kwai sum, soot ti, jin jien chuan, niew chee. And there's more.
I think this comes from an English speaking person who wrote down the sounds of the Chinese speaker.

[Monkey]

Here's a link to a ' how to ' site.
http://www.aikidofaq.com/making/dit_da_jao.html

[JE]

Pilgrim,

The herbs you wrote are a romanization of the Cantonese names for the herbs. That's why you won't find them in Bensky, etc. It's actually a problem we find when trying to translate martial arts formulas because many immigrants from China were from Southern China and speak Cantoniese. I do know some of them but if you have access to the characters and can email them I'll be able to translate it all for you.

I wrote the pin yin below next to each one I could recognize. Hope it helps. Sorry I can't do much more. Like I said, if you have access to the characters I'll be glad to translate the whole thing for you. If it's all in Cantonese romanization I'm afraid I'm not going to be very helpful...

good luck,

Justin

Poison Hand: 1/1oth teal pee chaiu, suh chuan, chye.2/10th Tael: Yellow keng chye, chuan Shee Tuan(no oil), kam chou (GAN CAO),chye chang poe (SHI CHANG PU), moe yew(MO YAO) ,tze lan tong (ZI RAN TONG), phang gua, wild wolf's tooth, claw of tiger, tsang juke (CANG ZHU), kai tong pee (HAI TONG PI), faeng fong (FANG FENG), rue shiang (RU XIANG), tze yen rong chye er chean, chain lian chean, too chong (DU ZHONG), tonk kwai sum (DANG GUI WEI), soot ti (SHU DI), jin jien chuan, niew chee (NIU XI). And there's more.
I think this comes from an English speaking person who wrote down the sounds of the Chinese speaker.

[Pilgrim]

The Cantoneses connection can be really frustrating. Thanks for the help. Hope your studies are going well. Your Hung Gar site is great.

[NyHc]

As far as the base ingredient for Dit Da Jow; what are some of the different bases used?
I've heard of rubbing alcohol and wintergreen.
Does it make a difference? Are any bases used bad?
I'm not exactly sure what my current Sifu uses. I will ask him, but I know my former Sigung used rubbing alcohol.

[JE]

Die da jiu is most commonly made with alcohol. Traditional formulas for external use usually called for Huang Jiu (Yellow Wine). This was often some type of rice or millet wine from the local area. Internal formulas usually called for Bai Jiu (White Wine). Bai Jiu is a distilled spirit and was often a wine made from sorghum, although I'm sure other types of wines were also used.

The main prinicple that can be seen here is that the more common and less pure alcohol, Huang Jiu, was used externally, while the more rare and pure alcohol, Bai Jiu, was used internally. Use the cheap stuff for outside and save the good stuff for inside.

In modern times we can buy cheap distilled spirits and so there is less of a need to differentiate. I was taught to use vodka but know of people who prefer gin. The main thing is to use a pure substance with a low sugar level. Sake is a sweet wine and will make your die da jiu too sticky.

Rubbing alcohol is not a good choice, but I am regrettably blanking on my reason for that right now. I remember being told by my teacher long ago but don't remember why. Sorry. My suggestion is to use cheap vodka or gin.

Some formulas also include the use of vinegar or some oils but it depends on the use of the formula. Most traditional formulas will have directions for what type of alcohol to use. If nothing is specified and it's just a wine for training then use vodka/gin/etc.

Hope the information helps.

Justin

[NyHc]

great info...thanks a lot

[NyHc]

I have quite a bit of scar tissue in my right ankle. It affects my training very slightly, but nevertheless.
It's been broken twice. The first time the bone came through the skin when I was younger and the second time I broke my talis bone.
The range of motion is also not as good as my left ankle.
Will Dit Da Jow do anything for this, or would I need to seek an alternate cure? Is there a cure?
Any suggestions are welcome...

[JE]

There are a couple of things to consider before pursuing treatment. First is how much does this affect your daily life or training? Is there pain or just a limited range of motion? When you say there is a limited range of motion do you feel that limitation more in the muscles of your calf or in the joints of the ankle?

If there are significant calcium deposits around where the breaks occured treatment can help but it will take quite a bit longer and the effects will be less dramatic. If the problem is coming from tight muscles in your calf then massage or acupuncture can make a quicker and more significant difference.

The reality is that it is likely both of these so your question should be which part seems to be the bigger cause of your problems.

That being said, here's a simple thing you can try to see how much die da can help. Set aside at least thirty minutes each night for your ankle. Pour some die da jiu (a WARMING formula) on some gauze, place it over the area you feel has the most scar tissue, wrap the area with some plastic wrap, and cover with a hot pack. Let it cook your ankle for about minutes every night for five days, take a couple days off and repeat for another five days. At the end of two weeks see how it feels.

Becareful not to burn yourself. If you start to get a rash from your die da formula stop until it goes away and then just cook the area for a shorter amount of time.

One of the problems with using die da in the West is that we don't quite use it properly. If your going to use die da jiu as your primary modality to treat an injury then you need to spend more time rubbing it in to the area. The stereotypical 30 second application isn't enough. Pour some into a small bowl (or shot glass) dip your fingers in and rub the liquid into the area. Repeat for about 10 minutes until the area is really saturated with the liquid. Remember our goal is to get the liquid into the area so it can treat the injury. Using the hot pack is good for chronic problems which tend to respond well to warmth.

Good luck

Justin

[phantom]

Justin, I was told that, except for applying the jow to your palms, it is better to rub with your knuckles instead, becasue rubbing with the palms will just cause the jow to be soaked up by the palms, and the knuckles also stimulate the meridians in the body better.

[JE]

phantom,

There is really very little you can do to prevent the liquid from being absorbed by whichever body part you use. When treating an acute severe injury in it's earliest stages we sometimes need to be very careful about the amount of pressure we apply to the area. As I'm sure you can imagine we have much more sensetivity and control with our fingertips than with our knuckles. Basically I'm you don't need to worry about the absorbtion because it can't be avoided and that the fingertips allow for greater sensetivity.

As far as qi emission is concerned when stimulating the points I will have to give a big no on that one. Just think about snake stylists, ba gua practitioners, etc. Qi is strongly emitted from the hands in general but when trained properly can be emitted from any body part. The knuckles (like a pheonix eye fist) can be a nice way to apply very firm pressure to a specific point and I use them often when treating, but I also use my palms, fingers, elbows, knees, etc. As far as TCM is concerned the fingers (and toes) are a location where the transition of qi between the yin and yang paired channels. The qi is relatively superficial in the body and more easily influenced. Likewise it is more easy to emmit from there (think of the secret sword fingers in training the straight sword -gim/jian).

Anyhow, that's my $0.02

have a good weekend,

Justin

[phantom]

I really appreciate it. I think you are an invaluable asset to this forum. I really mean it. Peace, long life, and prosperity.

[Retired Taoist]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I was wondering if someone out there could give me some insight on how, and with what materials, Dit Do Jow is prepared with?
[/quote]

If you want to know how to make them, you can also go Here (http://www.china-shopping.com/recipesproduct.asp?class_id=THRBT&class_name=BONES%26TENDONS%20_(Dit%20Da%20Jows)) where 8 Dit da Jows recipes from a traditional Pharmacy in Beijing are described.

Dim Dam Doum

[tnwingtsun]

I have heard that vinegar in this makes the bones brittle,then I've heard that this is nonsense,
which is true???

[tnwingtsun]

Does anybody know????????????????

[twktcc]

Hello there !
I have read and been told the vinegar is a good base for ddj if it is used for the occasional injury... here and there. However, if it us used consistantly on the same area (ie. hands) that it can brittle the bones. Cider vinegar has alot of "healing/ health" properties in and of its own
as well.
Regards,
Dave

"Character consists of what you do on the third and fourth tries"

[JE]

tnwingtsun,

As is typical with Chinese medicine both things you heard are true. The key is in the balance.

Vinegar is exceptionally effective at relieving pain and spasms. Sour is the flavor associated with the Liver in TCM and the Liver controls the Jin. The Jin are the sinews and most closely relate to muscles in a Western analogy although some prefer to relate them to the musculo-tendonous areas (where the muscle turns into tendon and attaches to the bones). In being sour, vinegar soothes the Liver to relieve spasms. It is also effective at clearing heat. Try pouring some on a paper towel and putting it over a burn sometime. It really helps with the pain.

As far as the softening fo bones, just think what happens if you soak an egg or chicken bone in vinegar. They get soft and plyable, right. The same with the bones, and of course this is not how we want our bones to be.

In reality I doubt using a vinegar based liniment on a regular basis would make your bones as soft as if you had soaked them in vinegar for several weeks, however medically speaking it serves no purpose towards supporting your martial arts training. Chinese medicine is very focused on practicality, they have thousands of medicinals and if one can't meet their exact needs there is bound to be another that can.

I use one formula with vinegar in it to treat acute soft tissue injuries (muscle strains, pulls, spasms, etc.), the inclusion of vinegar in the formula supports the actions of the herbs to treat the spasm and pain. I don't use vinegar in any of my training formulas because it does not serve a purpose as related to my training.

hope the information helps,

Justin

[fiercest tiger]

justin,
would vinegar dry the area applied out and toughen the skin? i have the formulas for making poultices we call yut ho yee ho #1 & #2 powders, depending on the injury like you said and how long the injury you would use vinegar, wine , or egg white.(right)??

this is what i have learnt what i call basic dit dar in hongkong off the grandmaster their.

for the washes and soaks i never use a vinegar base linement.

i heard for a iron palm formula that you can use vinegar and rusty nails and some herbs. this was a way to get fast tough/rough hands i was told. rust wouldnt be good for you, and like you said to much vinegar can be bad.

whats your view on this??? have you ever heard of this type of formula that uses rusty nails? :confused:

peace

yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[JE]

FT,

I'm not sure about vinegar drying out and toughening the skin. In terms of TCM it is sour and astringing. There are different types of vinegar as well; white, black, rice, etc. The lighter colors are generally more cooling and the darker more neutral to warming, although they are all quite good at clearing inflammation.

As far as poultices go I almost always use egg whites for acute injuries (this is what I was taught originally). I also prefer the consistency of egg whites to alcohol or vinegar based pastes (just easier to work with). Egg whites also have a strong astringing action and work very well to extract a deep bruise towards the surface of the body - very important.

Still, there are times that I would consider using vinegar. As I mentioned in the previous post it is especially useful for spasms of the sinews. I haven't used vinegar enough to be able to say if it will cause dryness or toughening of the skin. My guess is not any more so than alcohol would.

As far as the rusty nails formula goes, yes I've heard of that. A really simple formula that is actually a nice example of how simple TCM can be. It also reminds us that martial artists have a long history of being poor and not being able to always buy the more expensive herbs.

Nails (historically) contained iron in them (nowadays this may not be true). One of the main herbs used in hit medicine is Zi Ran Tong, Pyritum, Fool's gold. The main chemical consituent of this is ferrous disulfide, an iron compound. Historically, zi ran tong is heated to red hot and dipped in vinegar to help extract some of its healing constituents. Zi ran tong strongly moves blood stasis and strengthens and promotes the healing of bones and sinews.

So when we look at this formula you can see that you are using an herb that clears blood stasis and strengthens the bones and sinews: basically everything we need for iron palm training. The vinegar helps extract the medicinal part of the nails and with the pain and inflammation that develop during training. This takes the place of many of the toxic herbs that are used in traditional formulas to stop pain.

As far as toughening of the skin is concerned I'm not sure (I haven't used this formula before). But in general the amount of skin toughening we try to achieve in Chinese martial arts is relatively minimal (not like Japanese makiwara training). I was taught that you should not be able to tell a person has trained in iron palm by the look of their hands. Of course there will be some thickening of the skin and bones that occurs over time with this training, but it should be subtle in it's appearance.

By the way, nice post about kinematics (body mechanics). Definitely a major point when considering applications...

cheers,

Justin

[tnwingtsun]

great posts and full of helpful info,my Bai
Mei Sifu uses a Vinegar and a nonVin one,he has made and used the vinegar one for iron palm
and doesen't have a brittle bone in his body,
his hands are soft and show little evidence
of training,he puts dents in a large(very heavy)
bag filled with iron shot with pheniox eye
punches but has no callas on his fingers,funny story,the other night My Sifu,his wife,my wife and son were eating out,my son got a case of bad hicups,I gave him a tablespoon of sugar(this sometimes works with me),that didn't work,he got my son around the table and put his palm on my son's and found a point somewhere on the inside of the wrist inch or two into the forarm,he poked that point with a toothpick a few times and then did the same on the other arm,the hicups stopped.
My wife doesen't belive in TCM,she opened up after that,any idea what point that is??
so many other things to talk about,didn't have a chance to ask ;)

[fiercest tiger]

justin,
would it be useful and healthy to use the vinegar and iron nails together, or any type these days?

would you first let them get rusty? the vinegar i was shown is the dark vinegar, which vinegar is better for dit dar jow?

egg white is full of proteins too! but gotta have the eggs at the school, and to be honest we dont have to much casulties during training. the guys go hard but not stupid.

wingstun,

tooth picks huh! after it was in his mouth heheheh!
i heard of a chi kung doctor here that uses tooth picks. cheaper but not as effective. I WOULDNT THINK?

;)

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[Turiyan]

Old style boxers have used a brine solution of vinegar and salt brushed on area's of the face and knuckles to toughen the skin like leather.

I've read that the vinegar soup medications should be changed every 3 times every 33 days (99 days) and heated to around 100 degree's before using. The hand is immersed and soaked and allowed to dry on its own without wiping. Some leave the hand in till the mixture cools to room temperature.

The formula does condition the hand by itself, and the heat gets easyer to bear. I'd imagine one would have to heat the mixture gradually, hotter and hotter as your tissues acclimate to the temperature.

Iron is associated with the liver which is responsible for the strength of connective tissues.

With a good vinegar formula (not just the basic vinegar and nails) your hand will turn black and be tough as shoe leather after about 100 days.

Vinegar formulas arent much for bruising. Because many of the herbs for such will make you sick if you use an acid base.

A basic bruise formula would consist of alchohol with several live baby rats dropped in. Let it sit for a week or so before using. What a way to die!

Bahahahahahahhahahahahaha.

Turiyan, Brahmin caste, Ordos clan

The REAL taichi:
http://www.wfdesign.com/tc/
http://www.wustyle.com/108.html

[Michael Jacobs]

Why not use an already micronized version of iron that could be found in a vitamin supplement? This could also prevent using nails with Tetanus by accident. My wife would also prefer that I not give her backrubs that smell like soy sauce and dead rats, not to mention internal bleeding and abrasions from inch thick callouses. I just hope all this iron palm training isnt for picking up the ladies. HeHe Anyway, you want to get rid of a bruise? Try a massage, some vitamin E and C or Alfalfa (vitamin K). ;)

[WongFeHung]

I had a black vinegar and nails iron palm formula, that I threw out. It seems that this formula was supposed to be used sparingly, as a hardening formula, just as steel is tempered. But it can also be over tempered, making it brittle. Well, being young, exuberant, and pretty **** stupid,I heated it up, soaked my hands in it three times a day, andwalked around smelling like a salad! My sweat stained the sheets and my shirts, and I broke my fingers in sparring three times in six months. I discontinued the jow and the fingers eventually stopped breaking. If I ever make that formula again, I will use it very sparingly, if at all. (see, I still don't learn. stupid, stupid, stupid)

[Fish of Fury]

i'd also been confused about this.

i've heard of the rusty nails formula, and that it can cause brittle bones

my sihing taught me iron palm training using a vinegar (but no nails) formula. my hands got strong but stayed supple, and nothing broke (but i only used it for a year.)

my sifu had very soft palms but great strength/iron palm.once we were boiling stones in medicine and he was just scooping them out with his hands while the stuff was still boiling!
he used alcohol based dit dar, but i'm not sure if he also had a vinegar iron palm formula

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I never drive faster than i can see...other than that...it's all in the reflexes" Jack Burton

[Fen]

Hello...

i am wondering if anyone has the recipe for di dat jow. And how would I be able to go about getting it?

Thanks.....

[dfedorko@mindspring.com]

What type of jow/recipe do you need?

Damian

[Jamesbond_007]

if you go to http://www.ancientway.com/Pages/MartialArtsFormulas.html
they sell a Jow kit for $30. You make it yourself and it is pretty good. I've made a couple of batches of it and I think it works great.

[BSH]

Interesting website, but my word of caution:

Most people who have an authentic Dit Da recipe hoard their secret like a dragon would his treasure. I have more faith in pre-prepared Dit Da where the recipe isn't available.

That being said, give it a shot. JamesBond_007 thought it was good, so you have one endorsement.

I will stick with the Dit Da my Sifu makes.

[dfedorko@mindspring.com]

Since you didn't respond to my reply that tells me you are a "grasshopper" when it comes to jow knowledge. I recommend that you seek out Master Joiner tjseaofchi@aol.com. He is a most gracious and humble man. He will help you and he is not expensive.

Damian

[yu shan]

dfe****o,

personally thank you friend! appreciate our older brothers like you, cause I am one.

[yu shan]

Christmas!!!dfe****o@mindspring.com is that better! dfe hope you can see the forest thru the trees.

[dfedorko@mindspring.com]

Yes, I can see the forest thru the trees. I've been called worse but thanks for the complement.

Damian

[byond]

i have some real nice jow recipes. im a wing chun practitioner and got 3 recipes from a wing chun sifu from new york. one of the recipes is made from non-chinese herbs. yes you heard me right..he made an american jow(he is a doctor in tcm,chiropracter,cranial/sacral manipulation and wing chun) that works great...i just made a huge batch and use it daily....if interested e mail me

[Fen]

DM-
sorry i did not get back i was out of town !!!!!!

[greendragon]

As far as store bought stuff, any chinatown pharmacy should have Sun Sun Tong's brand. comes in a red & white box about a 2" cube with Sun's picture on it.. no english. has bear bile in it though (for penetration). mix with alcohol.

[yuanfen]

Kill a whole bear for its bile? Ethics...any?

[BruceSteveRoy]

I will be the first to admit that i know almost nothing about Chinese Medicine or herbal remedies. With that said i figured this would probably be the place to come to ask this question. I was wondering if the alcohol proof significantly changes the effectiveness of a dit da jow. My understanding is that the alcohol is used to penetrate the skin and thin the blood so that it can flow more easily and decrease swelling. But like i said i don't really know much about it so that might be wrong. My thought is if the proof were higher it might work faster. which brings me to the point of even asking. A buddy of mine was telling me that a Scottish distillery called Bruichladdich is releasing a single malt quadruple distilled whiskey. it is going to be 90 % alcohol (180 proof). It is known as "perilous whiskey" for obvious reasons. They started making it so that means it will be ready in about 10 years. I was wondering if you made a dit da jow with it if it would be more effective.

any ideas?

[stma]

Jow is made of herbs, minerals, and animal products. The alcohol is used to get the goodies out of these things. The goodies are basically divided into polar and non-polar chemicals. Alcohol get the non-polar one and water gets the polar ones. So you need a combo of both. Most whisheys are 40-50% alcohol, the rest is water which makes them a good medium to do both.

[Dale Dugas]

DON'T use anything more than 100 proof. It evaporates too quickly to get the job done.

Personally I dont use anything but 80 Proof(40%).

[Asmo]

Ohhh bruichladdich, one of my favs =)

Eventually, they did not reach their goal of 92% or so percent. After the "angel's share" went over it for a decade even less will be kept. The angles share is the anual loss due to evaporation through the cask. On average that is 2%, but Bruichladdich is situated on Islay right in the Gulf stream where it is a bit warmer, so it will be a tad higher then that.

I dont claim to know much either about chinese medicine, but afaik the most impportant reason to use alcohol is to extract the working substances from the herbs. And when applying the jow to the skin, you dont want it to be evaporated to fast. So such a high ABV is not suitable. I keep reading and hearing that about equal parts of water and alcohol is the best solution. So about 50% ABV.

I have a virtual reality on my website of the distillery in case you are interested: http://www.peatfreak.com/vr-bruichladdichGate.php

[herb ox]

BruceSteveRoy -

Check out http://martial.best.vwh.net/forum/search.php?searchid=191001 to see the many times Dit Da Jow has come up on our forum. The alcohol issue is complex and different sources say different things, but personally, I'd save the single malt scotch for savoring with a bit of ice, water and maybe a pint of Gunness nearby :p

Traditionally, cheap vodka, gin and rice wine have been used as the base.

peace

herb ox

[PangQuan]

i have purchased and used jow made by one of our forum lurkers.

plumdragon.

i had developed some tendon issues in my wrists, got in touch with him, he threw in some extra herb(s) for my specific ailment and sent it out. got it quick and in a weeks time the problem i had been having for weeks was gone.

just ordered up a bottle of his 1+ year aged jow and am looking forward to using it.

check his shop out. he has iron palm and regular bruise liniment.

http://www.plumdragonherbs.com/catalog/quality.php

[dfedorko@mindspring.com]

I concur with Dale Dugas and herb ox. 80% vodka is the best. Save the single malt for your drinking.

xiaotiema

[stainlesschi]

anyone had good success with this?
anyone found it useless?
gotta bad wrist ,torn tendons how long on average to mend using dit da jow?

[Samurai Jack]

It is entirely dependant on what you are using. Dit Da Jow is a type of medicine, but there are all kinds, some of them for very different purposes. It's like using the phrase "cough syrup", or "cold medicine." Are you talking Guifenasin, dyphenhydramine, pseudoephedrine, or something else?

Anyway, there are many kinds of Dit Da Jow. What kind are you using?

[stainlesschi]

master yaus family jow,,,multi purpose
http://www.chinesehealtharts.co.uk/shop.asp?style=lotion
there the site if you wouldnt mind checking it out for me

[Samurai Jack]

I cannot vouch for what you are using, but for a sprain, I'd recommend something that has Methyl Salicilate (an analgesic) to reduce inflamation. Not all mentholated jows have this ingredient, but for an injury such as yours in the acute stage, I'd recommend it.

My external liniment for general healing (once the swelling goes down) takes about three to seven days for a minor sprain. That is with ibuprofen to control inflammation, which can sometimes return if you keep training with the injury.

I also use a "cooking" type jow when the injury calls for heat, and an internal jow as a general tonic when I've been beat up for awhile. Sometimes I have to train for more than two weeks in a row without a break and that really wears you down unless you use an internal jow.

I hope this helps. Your teacher's or Chinese medical practitioner can give more detailed advice to your specific case.

[lhommedieu]

Re. you jow it's hard to tell from the website what exactly is in the jow or for what purpose it is used. Generally speaking there are two kinds of jows: those used for older chronic injuries that tend to be warming, and those used for recent, acute injuries that tend to be cooling - or that are neutral in temperature but contain a lot of blood moving herbs. There are also a lot of specific jows for specific purposes, such as iron palm training jows etc.

The following link for Blue Poppy Press gives descriptions of specific jows for specific purposes:

http://www.bluepoppy.com/cfwebstorefb/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=20&CFID=630797&CFTOKEN=83983316

You may also want to check out Tom Bisio's book (see thread above) for a good general-purpose acute injury jow. There is also a very good jow for tendon injuries that typically get worse in cold, damp weather. Jows are easy to make and you'll save money in the long run if you use them a lot. At the very least, you'll also know exactly what's in your jow.

As a point of personal preference I don't like jows in plastic bottles as I'm always wary of the chemicals in the plastic leaching into the jow.

Best,

Steve Lamade

[ShaolinGirl]

My husband and I have tried a few kinds and brands and right now we use two different kinds of dit da jow: one for regular bruises and the other for bruises deep enough to affect the bone and/or when tendons are involved. Both of them are from Plum Dragon Herbs at http://www.plumdragonherbs.com, a place which specializes in dit da jows. They're also have a new dit da jow specifically for sprains and such which might be pertinent to your case:
http://www.plumdragonherbs.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/24/products_id/89

If I apply the bruise dit da jow the same day I get the bruise, I can usually stop the bruise from ever appearing, that's how well it disperses the blood. The iron bone dit da jow speeds up the healing of bone bruises and tendons. I can feel the increased circulation after applying the stuff, but in a deeper, more subtle way than any camphor-based liniments. It also helps you avoid getting ugly hands after banging them up....

[ZenGuy]

ive never really been convinced, were advided to apply di da every time we do wall bag training because it can stop bone problems when we get older.
Anyone think this is the case?

[herb ox]

Well, you could do a search for dit da jow on the forums here and get a wide assortment of opinions and experiences from using DDJ. However, from personal experience, I've found most jows to be effective in reducing the time to heal a bruise and seems to also reduce the pain of injury as well as speed recovery. I've been using jow for years and now formulate my own. I've researched for years and now that I'm studying Acupuncture and herbs, what was once a surface level of understanding is now growing deeper as are my experiences with herbs and jow.

I gotta say, the stuff works. Some formulas work better than others... no doubt. But I've also used very simple formulas with great results (like, the basic 8 ingredients for moving blood and speeding healing) These formulae have been used and refined over the centuries... tried and true!

One thing I tend to shy away from is jow that costs a lot of money. It shouldn't. Herbs are cheap and so is the liquor used to make the preparation. The best jow I've used was relatively cheap (or free!).

peace

herb ox

[herb ox]

Welcome the TCM forum, Shaolin Girl... I dig your avatar.

[mantiskilla]

i broke my ankle and ruptured ligaments playing soccer 2 Octobers ago (sounded like a .22 going off). I went to the doctor, a sports doctor, and he wanted to look into surgery and said i would be casted for 12-16 weeks... I left and never went back. I went to my teacher who worked on it (almost puked) and gave me herbs to cook and apply for several hours a day along with using jow. I was walking within 5-6 weeks and doing kung fu by 8 weeks...he said if i had come to him sooner it would have healed faster ( i waited a week before i saw him). Took a full year for complete recovery...as in getting back the same explosive movement. I believe I would have had significant atrophy and loss of range of motion (or much time in rehab) had i followed the doctors advice...I know i would still be trying to get it back to 'normal' two years out. I kept the ankle moving pretty much within a day or two of the break and rupture.

Also took herbs to fix broken ribs when i was in China this year. If you have broken ribs you know how painful it is...cant even sleep at night. went to an herbal doc in HK and with in two visits the pain was completely gone. he cooked herbs for me to drink and after the second time within twenty minutes or so the pain got a little worse and then went away for good.
________
Montana Dispensary (http://montana.dispensaries.org/)

[ZenGuy]

sounds good,
anybody recommend some cheap di ja available in the UK???
if not then a good supplier with cheap UK delivery.
would be much appreceated if youve had good sucess with some.


also what do u think of the theory thay the bruse damage goes into the bone, only to surface later in life as arthritis or a problem?

[Three Harmonies]

I can ship anywhere in the world if need be. I carry Mike Biggie's recipe, which is pretty **** good IMO.

Cheers
Jake
three_harmonies@hotmail.com
www.threeharmonies.com

[yu shan]

I can vouch for Jake, his recipe is the best I have used. And it is all my school uses. Sorry Jake, but I go straight to Mike now.

[Three Harmonies]

No sorries needed mi amigo. The props belong to Mike, not me. I am glad to turn you onto his stuff, and I am happy that you and others are supporting Mike.

I tell you what, if the Pong Lai group uses it then it is good for anyone! I have never seen so many students, so willing to beat the living hell out of each others arms, legs, and bodies! The Pong Lai group (Yu Shan is part of that BTW) does more conditioning than anyone I have seen in that respect, so if they are using it you are **** sure it works and is good! Can't wait to come over and see all you guys sometime again Jim!! Say Hi to the crew for me!
Cheers
Jake :)

[Kaylun]

sounds good,
anybody recommend some cheap di ja available in the UK???
if not then a good supplier with cheap UK delivery.
would be much appreceated if youve had good sucess with some.


also what do u think of the theory thay the bruse damage only to surface later in life as arthritis or a problem?

goes into the bone,

Try www.chinesehealtharts.co.uk good Dit Da pluse stuff for older injuries.

[lhommedieu]

One thing I tend to shy away from is jow that costs a lot of money. It shouldn't. Herbs are cheap and so is the liquor used to make the preparation. The best jow I've used was relatively cheap (or free!).

herb ox

Agreed. I use the cheapest "American Whiskey" that I can find. I have a 6 gallon carboy that's going on five years now; when I start decanting it next year I'll have a lifetime supply of jow for use in my clinic for an original cost of about $125.

Best,

Steve Lamade

[ShaolinGirl]

Welcome the TCM forum, Shaolin Girl... I dig your avatar.
Thank you! :-)

[dougadam]

A Good Dit Da Jow Recipe

1 bottle of strong vodka, gin or Chinese rice wine
Artemesia (Liu ji nu) - 5g
Borneol (Bingpian) - 1g
Carthamus (Honghua) - 5g
Catechu (Ercha) - 8g
Cinnabar (Zhusha) - 5g
Cirsium (DaJi) - 1g
Dragon's Blood (Xuejie) - 30g
Mastic (Ruxiang) - 5g
Musk (Shexiang) - 1g
Myrrh (Moyao) - 5g
Pinellia (ShengBanXia) - 5g

[ZenGuy]

goes into the bone,

Try www.chinesehealtharts.co.uk good Dit Da pluse stuff for older injuries.

anybody have personal experience with this?
cheers, thank alot

[TenTigers]

what herbs can you substitute for
ah-ping
bear claw
bear bile
deer musk

[David Jamieson]

A Good Dit Da Jow Recipe

1 bottle of strong vodka, gin or Chinese rice wine
Artemesia (Liu ji nu) - 5g
Borneol (Bingpian) - 1g
Carthamus (Honghua) - 5g
Catechu (Ercha) - 8g
Cinnabar (Zhusha) - 5g
Cirsium (DaJi) - 1g
Dragon's Blood (Xuejie) - 30g
Mastic (Ruxiang) - 5g
Musk (Shexiang) - 1g
Myrrh (Moyao) - 5g
Pinellia (ShengBanXia) - 5g

lose the cinnabar and substitue it with 5g powdered arnica blossoms. (leopard bane / arnica monatana)

also, I wouldn't use the camphor either, it doesn't do anything except provide superficial heat and it's analgesic quality is low.

[Asmo]

I wouldn't use the camphor either, it doesn't do anything except provide superficial heat and it's analgesic quality is low.

I believe that will open up the pores through which the other herbs can enter. Not all herbs are added for medicinal purposes, but also to get other herbs to get to the place needed for them to do their work.

Changing TCM herbal formulas requires solid knowledge, the interaction between herbs can go quite deep and requires quite a bit of study at a TCM university or similar IMHO.

[herb ox]

I didn't see Camphor (Zhang Nao) in the formula - but I did see Bing Pian (Borneol) listed. These are two substances with opposite energetic qualities. Camphor is spicy, hot and toxic, whereas Borneol is spicy, bitter and cool. Either way, I'd leave it in there - borneol is cooling and likely balances the heat of the ban xia and helps to stop pain. Overall this formula is rather cool (energetically) - seems like it'd be more suited for acute, hot swollen injuries, rather than for treating old or chronic injuries.

peace

herb ox

[Asmo]

I did not actually took a look at the formula at all (blush). Just wanted to make a comment on leaving out herbs in general.

Cheers for the extra info herbox :)

[herb ox]

Asmo, you bring an interesting point to the table - many of the elder dit da formulas use obscure, illegal, or toxic ingredients - eg tiger bone, bear gall bladder, eagle claws (for your eagle claws :p ) etc... and need an appropriate substitute

Zu Sha, or Cinnabar is still used in very small amounts for its spirit-calming properties. It has mercury oxide in it, however, it is treated to reduce the toxic qualities. I'd most likely leave it out of my formula, as there are other herbs with qualities appropriate for subsitution. Another example is using Ding Xiang (cloves) to replace She Xiang (deer musk) as the musk deer is threatened by those who seek to profit from this rare substance.

I believe these substitutions bring the ancient art of herbal formulation into the new age - times change, the environment has changed, and so have we. As such, active research into finding suitable replacements for substances that are obsolete is certainly needed. Perhaps some of our forum members can provide us with their own research and experiences.

peace on earth

herb ox

[Asmo]

Asmo, you bring an interesting point to the table - many of the elder dit da formulas use obscure, illegal, or toxic ingredients - eg tiger bone, bear gall bladder, eagle claws (for your eagle claws :p ) etc... and need an appropriate substitute

That post was actually made by David Jamieson. But I agree that for toxic herbs like Cinnabar or endangered species (or unethically obtained ingredients) you should use substitutes. But I personally wouldn't start to try and substitute (or leave them out) without having got some extensive university level study in TCM. Naturally, for some herbs there are known substitutes*.

Until then I'll stick to either patent medicines, or formulas I can use without such problems.

*) Which sometimes makes me frown so much on the use of the ingredient in the first place.. Like cats bone for tiger bone. They both have equal value? Or chicken claw instead of eagle claw. Like WTF? But I guess that valids a complete discussion on its own :)

[lhommedieu]

what herbs can you substitute for
ah-ping
bear claw
bear bile
deer musk


I'm not sure what "ah-ping" is. Do you mean "Ai Pian?" i.e., Bing Pian?

For bear claw and bear bile: I'd heard that bear paw is used in some formulas and cuisine as a tonic herb so I would guess that you could substitute other tonic herbs if that's the purpose for which you wanted it;you can substitute cow gallbladder (Nui Dan) in larger doses for bear gallbladder, and I believe that there is a synthetic bile taken from cow gallbladder that can be used as well.

Re. She Xiang (Deer Musk) most people use a synthetic product called muskone (He Cheng She Xiang Tong); it is still rather expensive and hard to find - but not illegal as far as I know.

Best,

Steve Lamade

[TenTigers]

Thanx, Steve.We met at Tom's seminar-I was the one who did the plum blossom needling for your headache. ah-pien is opium. I suppose I couldn't substitute Robbitussen?:p
I went hunting last week, almost brought back enough bear for all of us. Better luck next time.

[lhommedieu]

Rik,

Looking forward to the Suigetsu camp. I was going to suggest (but didn't because you asked for substitutes) that harvesting bear through hunting is an ethical alternative to the illegal products that almost always come from intensive bear farms in the PRC. The problem, in addition to the fact that the bears are treated badly, is that their life-span in captivity is significantly shorter in these farms than in the wild - so wild bears are still poached but kept alive to be sent to the farms, where the bile is harvested through tubes inserted into their gallbladders. Altogether it's a horrible practice and it doesn't prevent the destruction of the wild bear population due to the money to be made supplying the farms.

Hunting for bear, on the other hand, is I think ethical insofar as it fulfills one of the true reasons for hunting: to supply meat for the table, fur, (and in this case, an herbal medicine) - so long as the wild bear population can easily sustain hunting pressure. I don't have a lot of experience hunting, but it's something I'd like to take up in the near future, as my dad hunted for deer, grouse, and pheasant all his life. Tom has a student who's an avid hunter and I've heard that he has gone bear hunting in upstate New York. I was thinking of contacting him and will let you know his thoughts on the efficacy of harvesting bear gallbladder if you would like. One would need to know, for example, how to keep the gallbladder fresh during transit and how to prepare it for use as an herbal medicine.

Best,

Steve Lamade

[Gongli]

Herbal substitutes

The most common substitute for bear paw is deer tendon, the substitute for bear gall is gold thread-coptis rhizoma,-huang lien, but I like to use the common western herb goldenseal because it has the same energy and properties. tigerbone is Homalonemae occulta. but you guys probably know this already.

[lhommedieu]

Herbal substitutes

The most common substitute for bear paw is deer tendon, the substitute for bear gall is gold thread-coptis rhizoma,-huang lien, but I like to use the common western herb goldenseal because it has the same energy and properties. tigerbone is Homalonemae occulta. but you guys probably know this already.

I hadn't known that deer tendon can be used as a substitute for bear paw. Whenever I have a muscle tear however I like to eat Vietnamese Pho (soup) with beef tendon - so would deer tendon share similar properties? Huang Lian as a plant herbal substutute for Bear Gall Bladder makes sense as both are Cold and Bitter and share a similar range of actions and indications, (in particular eye and topical inflamation); There is a musk and bear bile patent that is used for chronic cold and damp conditions, however, and I am wondering if one could substitute Huang Lian for the bear bile in this formula? Re. Homalonemae occulta (Quan Nian Jian) it is right there next to Hu Gu in my Bensky and Gamble. It is bitter rather than sweet but can be used for the same range of symptoms. Thank you for the reference.

Best,

Steve

[TenTigers]

all kidding aside, what can be substituted for opium? I am not about to score dope in the park, and certainly wouldn't want people saying my jow is a controlled substance.

[PlumDragon]

TenTigers,
Not sure if this is a suitable substitution for your uses or not, but Yan Hu Suo (Corydalis Rhizome) is in the poppy family and shares a taxonomic similarty with opium at the genus level.

Not surprisingly, Yan Hu Suo is an important pain releiver and blood invigorator. If this is a good substitution for your uses, it is cheap and easy to get.

[lhommedieu]

TenTigers,
Not sure if this is a suitable substitution for your uses or not, but Yan Hu Suo (Corydalis Rhizome) is in the poppy family and shares a taxonomic similarty with opium at the genus level.

Not surprisingly, Yan Hu Suo is an important pain releiver and blood invigorator. If this is a good substitution for your uses, it is cheap and easy to get.

Yan Hu Suo also combines well with other herbs to treat specific parts of the body. For example, you can combine it with Chuan Lian Zi to treat rib fracture.

Best,

Steve Lamade

[TenTigers]

can you post the chinese characters?

[lhommedieu]

can you post the chinese characters?

For Yan Hu Suo:

[TenTigers]

thanx!:) :)

[lhommedieu]

Sure, no problem. I noticed that the Suigetsu Dojo (http://www.shopsuigetsu.com/Alternative_Healthcare_s/47.htm) in Greenlawn, NY has a pretty good selection of herbal products. Of note are the Dit Da Jow, Tendon Lotion, Tendon Soak, and Bone Knitting formulas. The "UI" oil is also helpful for stiff, overexerted muscles that cramp up in cold, damp weather. Worth a look at.

Best,

Steve

[lhommedieu]

Just a follow-up on muskone. I noticed that Kamwo Pharmacy in NYC's Chinatown (Grand Street) uses it (synthetic musk) in one of Tom Bisio and Frank Butler's formulas:

http://www.kamwo.com/Public/zhenggutuina.php

Other substitutes for bear gallbladder:

zhu dan (pig gallbladder) plus huang lian
niu dan (cow gallbladder) plus huang lian

Best,

Steve

[KungFubar]

Does Dit Da Jow really work? Why is there no western equivalent, how does the MMA argue with real testable results? And why isnt it sold OTC at walmart if it is so effective? I read a few articles on it yesterday but I still dont understand, it must dilate blood vessels to promote circulation and healing but so does heat. They always say ICE for inflammation and then heat later after the area stops swelling. Are good recipes available or is that all secret/pseudo secret too?

[Kymus]

Does Dit Da Jow really work?

Yes


Why is there no western equivalent,

Western medicine focuses on pathology and the treatment of symptoms. There is no similar herbal medicine that I'm aware of in western medicine. Maybe someone more knowledgeable than me knows if there's been clinical research done on dit da jow.


how does the MMA argue with real testable results?

MMA doesn't do iron training like how Chinese arts do.


And why isnt it sold OTC at walmart if it is so effective?

It's more for kung fu people. Wal Mart would lose money selling it.

Furthermore, I'd advise to be careful of affirming the consequent (http://www.fallacyfiles.org/afthecon.html). That's fallacious logic.


I read a few articles on it yesterday but I still dont understand, it must dilate blood vessels to promote circulation and healing but so does heat.

I'm not trained in chinese herbs (yet) so I'll let someone else answer this.


They always say ICE for inflammation and then heat later after the area stops swelling.

That's poor advice (http://behealthynow.wordpress.com/2012/02/18/hiatus/).


Are good recipes available or is that all secret/pseudo secret too?

I'm sure you could find a recipe online without much effort. But that will also involve buying each individual herb. It's cheaper to buy it pre-made unless you follow a specific recipe given to you by your teacher.

I buy mine from here (http://www.ancientway.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=2603). Other forum members have their go-to seller and some make their own and sell it.

[Kymus]

If you're interested in Chinese medicine or scared about "woo", I'd suggest taking a look at this post (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65979). That may help you get a better understanding of things.

[SoCo KungFu]

Furthermore, I'd advise to be careful of affirming the consequent (http://www.fallacyfiles.org/afthecon.html). That's fallacious logic.


So is straw man. You might want to avoid that one

[KungFubar]

I didnt realize I was debating something ( i dont even know what).

as a side note, OTC pharm and western medicine in general are interested foremostly in $$$$$$$$, so it the stuff works it surely would be marketed to the OTC aches and pains crowd. If not then theres a golden opportunity to make $$$$

The logic is good unless nobody has thought of marketing the stuff (not likely if its so effective)

Next logic step = its not very effective or there is some legal hurdle that cant be overcome ie its dangerous somehow or alleged to be dangerous. This doesnt stop actual pharma which actually is extremely dangerous also tobacco which is extremely dangerous but it is sold because much $$$$$$ .

[Kymus]

So is straw man. You might want to avoid that one

Specifically how was I building a straw man?

He said almost word for word, if A, then B.

I'm simply reminding him - as I see this sort of logic all the time - that that isn't logical reasoning.

[KungFubar]

Specifically how was I building a straw man?

He said almost word for word, if A, then B.

I'm simply reminding him - as I see this sort of logic all the time - that that isn't logical reasoning.

please identify a and b in my statement as you understand it

[Kymus]

I didnt realize I was debating something ( i dont even know what).

as a side note, OTC pharm and western medicine in general are interested foremostly in $$$$$$$$, so it the stuff works it surely would be marketed to the OTC aches and pains crowd. If not then theres a golden opportunity to make $$$$

The logic is good unless nobody has thought of marketing the stuff (not likely if its so effective)

Next logic step = its not very effective or there is some legal hurdle that cant be overcome ie its dangerous somehow or alleged to be dangerous. This doesnt stop actual pharma which actually is extremely dangerous also tobacco which is extremely dangerous but it is sold because much $$$$$$ .

generally, they're much more interested in taking a biochemical compound from a plant and then patenting it.

There's room for Chinese herbal medicine in sports medicine and therapeutic modalities, but it's easier to just keep with what's already been going. This opens a giant discussion about integrative medicine.

The bottom line is that just because something works, doesn't mean it will get adopted. Just because something doesn't work, doesn't mean that it will be rejected. There are a lot of politics with this; which is very unfortunate for everyone :mad:

[herb ox]

Gawd I hope Walmart never carries it :eek: Really, the last thing we want is for Chinese medicine to go corporate! Bigger does not always equate with better...

KungFubar - You bet it works. Different recipes / brands have different degrees of effectiveness, tho. Search this forums, as there are plenty of recipes and sources here. I don't know what MMA has to do with any of it... or did you mean the AMA?

Dit Da Jow was what got me into Chinese Medicine to begin with. My Sifu made his own Jow and I was amazed at how quickly bruises dispersed and sprained ankles were cured almost overnight. After studying Sifu's methods and learning about the herbs for the last 15 years, I now brew several types myself, and also make medicinal plasters as well - and they all work really well, and the proof to me is that the folks I give it to use it up, get better, and then call me for more when they have a new injury.

How does it work? - There is a paucity of conventional research to define this question, but Dit Da Jow has been used for centuries in China and continues to be a popular item, so it must work pretty well for many people.

From a TCM perspective - let's look at a simple "imaginary" recipe to understand what is going on here -

Da Huang - rhubarb root
Ru Xiang - Frankincence
Mo Yao - Myrrh
Pu Gong Ying - Dandelion
Tao Ren - Peach pit kernel
Hong Hua - Safflower

Da Huang and Pu Gong Ying are very cold to reduce inflammation (think herbal ice)
Da Huang also moves the blood and breaks up stagnation, like what you'd see in a bruise. Pu Gong Ying prevents infection with it's strong antiseptic qualities.

Ru Xiang and Mo Yao reduce pain, invigorate the blood, and have antiseptic effects, while softening the tendons, generating flesh and promoting healing.

Tao Ren and Hong Hua work together to strongly break up stagnation while Hong Hua nourishes the blood as well.... we could go into waaay more detail (this is just the tip of the herbal iceberg) but I would encourage you to do your own homework.

So, in essence, we are creating a liniment that strongly disperses blood coagulations, reduces pain and inflammation, and promotes healing.

Best part is, you can brew it yourself and you don't need any fancy equipment or chemical compounds... I'd take homebrew over Bud Lite any day!

Peace

herb ox

[Kymus]

Dit Da Jow was what got me into Chinese Medicine to begin with.

Myself as well, actually. 9 years ago I read people talking on this forum about their Jow recipes and I understood none of it. I mentioned to my mother in passing that I was interested in learning Chinese herbology, she brought home an ad for a career in TCM. I thought about it and realized I could find no other job more fulffilling.

Dit Da Jow is a gateway drug :eek::eek::D

[KungFubar]

Gawd I hope Walmart never carries it :eek: Really, the last thing we want is for Chinese medicine to go corporate! Bigger does not always equate with better...

KungFubar - You bet it works. Different recipes / brands have different degrees of effectiveness, tho. Search this forums, as there are plenty of recipes and sources here. I don't know what MMA has to do with any of it... or did you mean the AMA?

Dit Da Jow was what got me into Chinese Medicine to begin with. My Sifu made his own Jow and I was amazed at how quickly bruises dispersed and sprained ankles were cured almost overnight. After studying Sifu's methods and learning about the herbs for the last 15 years, I now brew several types myself, and also make medicinal plasters as well - and they all work really well, and the proof to me is that the folks I give it to use it up, get better, and then call me for more when they have a new injury.

How does it work? - There is a paucity of conventional research to define this question, but Dit Da Jow has been used for centuries in China and continues to be a popular item, so it must work pretty well for many people.

From a TCM perspective - let's look at a simple "imaginary" recipe to understand what is going on here -

Da Huang - rhubarb root
Ru Xiang - Frankincence
Mo Yao - Myrrh
Pu Gong Ying - Dandelion
Tao Ren - Peach pit kernel
Hong Hua - Safflower

Da Huang and Pu Gong Ying are very cold to reduce inflammation (think herbal ice)
Da Huang also moves the blood and breaks up stagnation, like what you'd see in a bruise. Pu Gong Ying prevents infection with it's strong antiseptic qualities.

Ru Xiang and Mo Yao reduce pain, invigorate the blood, and have antiseptic effects, while softening the tendons, generating flesh and promoting healing.

Tao Ren and Hong Hua work together to strongly break up stagnation while Hong Hua nourishes the blood as well.... we could go into waaay more detail (this is just the tip of the herbal iceberg) but I would encourage you to do your own homework.

So, in essence, we are creating a liniment that strongly disperses blood coagulations, reduces pain and inflammation, and promotes healing.

Best part is, you can brew it yourself and you don't need any fancy equipment or chemical compounds... I'd take homebrew over Bud Lite any day!

Peace

herb ox

Very interesting and yes I meant AMA (american medical association) I was sure I typed AMA but in fact i did type MMA.

[SoCo KungFu]

Specifically how was I building a straw man?



Western medicine focuses on pathology and the treatment of symptoms.

And so does TCM. Pathology is a broad term. But in simplest form, its simply the process of analyzing patient presentation and diagnosing the illness. For the life of me I don't understand how TCM guys/gals try to say they aren't doing this, but then say they do it better because they're "holistic." You insinuated this as well in your 2nd part when you claim western med "treats the symptoms." Which is funny, because I distinctly remember in my time in health care trying to treat the cause. Problem is, patients don't listen.

There is no similar herbal medicine that I'm aware of in western medicine. Maybe someone more knowledgeable than me knows if there's been clinical research done on dit da jow.

Sure there is, you just don't know the name. To use Herb Ox's 1st example. Rhubarb (Da Huang) = Anthraquinone. Or rather, the actual compound in rhubarb that is "active" is known as an anthraquinone. See part of this disconnect between TCM and mainstream medicine is the language barrier. And well, mainstream isn't going to change its language, because its scientifically standardized. You as an aspiring TCM practitioner should probably learn to understand these things from a mainstream chemical POV as well. It will make you a better practitioner in the long run.


It's more for kung fu people. Wal Mart would lose money selling it.

They'll just cut worker hours. Walmart never loses money

Furthermore, I'd advise to be careful of affirming the consequent (http://www.fallacyfiles.org/afthecon.html). That's fallacious logic.



I'm not trained in chinese herbs (yet) so I'll let someone else answer this.



That's poor advice (http://behealthynow.wordpress.com/2012/02/18/hiatus/).

This is where you, or rather the person whose blog you linked, forms a straw man.


First, he seems to be the typical type of anti mainstream med type. Which is funny that he uses Wood Lock oil. This is not part of the argument, its just a funny note. Because the same active ingredients are in Icy Hot, which at least here where I live is much easier to find and a lot less expensive. Tiger balm also has the same stuff minus the methyl salicylate, which can be toxic if you have kids around that might ingest it. Of course, MS is also in mouth wash so....

But more to the point, your blog link cites a book passage that makes untrue claims regarding western medicine, in this case the RICE protocol, as a means to debase the western modality while propping up his own choice methods. Firstly,

In Western medicine, ice is universally recommended for all kind of inflammation, including that present in chronic injuries.

Few doctors use ice for much more that immediate treatment following traumatic injury. I've never personally seen a doc recommend ice for anything chronic. Its certainly never been in any patient notes I've seen. In fact, most inflammation and swelling patients present have nothing to do with trauma (usually its some other disease process like diabetes etc.) so the statement in the book is blatantly wrong. But even limiting the scope to traumatic injury, this is a false claim against western med.


In Chinese medicine, it is almost never used and is considered a culprit in joint injuries that don’t heal properly, because cold causes contraction of the muscles and tends to freeze and congeal the fluids that cause swelling, ultimately preventing their complete re-absorption.

First off, claiming that it impedes healing is a statement that needs to be substantiated. And to the best of my searching, this is not validated in any proper clinical study. It seems to be just more "conventional" TCM wisdom that gets propagated without much questioning. Now if he actually presented the study evidence that suggests that trials researching the efficacy of cryotherapy are not substantiated based on limited to no blinding in the research design, etc. THAT would be a proper argument. But I'm doubting many here have bothered to look that deep. However, as I say this, following a number of those criticisms (which were around 2004) more studies have come out suggesting ice does have a positive reduction is swelling and pain, even more when paired with electrical pulse therapies. Why? Not sure, I haven't read that much more into it frankly. On the second point, it is NOT the case that cold prevents reabsorption off hand. In fact, a number of compounds are more readily absorbed in cold that heat.


Compression limits swelling. Usually an elastic bandage is wrapped around the injured area to compress the tissues, thereby limiting blood flow into the area. This is contrary to Chinese medicine, where such constriction is felt to cause blood to stagnate and congeal above and below the injury. This slow re-absorption into the blood vessels.

I don't know about you, but usually I try to take my medical advice from someone that actually has a grasp on basic anatomy and physiology. Fluid reabsorption isn't so simple. The "fluid" portion of the fluid in the interstitial space is reabsorbed largly by the post-capillary venules. However, all the large molecules suspended in that fluid (ie, all the crap, damaged/destroyed cells, etc. that the fluid was there to remove to begin with) is reabsorbed via the lymphatic system. Furthermore, there's more recent studies into using the lymphatic system for drug admin (as opposed to the typical IV admin) that shows that even in conditions of swelling, lymphatic drug admin is a viable mechanism. This suggests that swelling (ie increased hydrostatic pressure, the same you are saying occurs via restriction band) would not impede lymphatic operation.

Next he goes into contrast bath protocol. And claims it is a viable means of treating swelling. Which is funny, because I distinctly remember reading publicized comparisons that state that contrast bathing is no better than simple RICE style cryotherapy. I think I posted it in another topic in this subforum, if you care to look for it.

The rest of this guy/gal's post goes into a statement of personal bias and personal account. Oh, turns out he wasn't treating his/her swelling at all, because he/she had a fracture...Duh moment. I did enjoy this little tid bit at the end though:

You will notice that within this update, there is some educational material.

Yes, it was indeed educational. It showed a person shackled by their personal bias. It showed that 1) you should never self diagnose. 2) One should be discerning in your sources of info regarding A&P and medical advice. And blogs usually aren't it. 3) TCM practitioners aren't the best sources of info regarding what is or isn't done in mainstream med practice 4) Don't be a dummy. Had this person swallowed their bias and went to get a freaking xray following the incident (rather than waiting 2 whole weeks before acknowledging the obvious) a lot of pain could have been avoided (like possibly avoiding surgery).

[SoCo KungFu]

Actually Kungfubar was pretty correct. The way patents work; even a natural compound can be patented under certain stipulations. If there is a certain protocol in extracting that compound, that can also be patented. And any derivatives of said compound can be patented. And that's the big part there. Natural compounds aren't the most effective. They serve as a starting point, but there's a lot that chemists can do to slightly play with certain parts of the structure to make it more effective (like say, making it more readily absorbed, etc.).

I see a lot of people trying to play the line that big pharm is trying to suppress alt med remedies. But the fact is, if its effective they WILL be trying their best to get control of it and push it on the market for profit. Especially if nature has done most of the chemistry already.

And that's why I'm here hijacking this thread. Because it aggravates the **** out of me when I see some of the practices the alt med industry throws out and no one bats an eye. Simple truth is, if the stuff is scientifically validated, then it will get acknowledged. I see TCM guys all the time complaining how, "they're not getting respect." Well guess what? Go into research and produce a viable study on it then if its so important to you. Its not up to the rest of the world to do your work for you.

Also, the alt med industry makes by pretty nicely in that they one, get to demonize mainstream med while preying on the more vulnerable patient base (ie the ones that really can't be fixed). And while they complain that their stuff like herbal treatments (which I do like btw) don't get proper attention, they get to fly under the radar of FDA oversight. Because "supplements" aren't scrutinized like "medicines." If TCM remedies had the same classification as mainstream pharm, you'd not be able to use a great majority of what you're pushing, save the stuff from actual food items.

And the last thing I'll rant on, because I could really go on and on... If TCM is so great, it should stand on its own accord. Practitioners should not be trying to push their product by debasing what they see as the "enemy." (mainstream med). It wreaks of just as much greed driven corporate BS that these same people blame the pharm industry and mainstream med to be guilty of. The TCM mode of PR thus far has been the medical equivalent of the used car salesman. "You want a car that rides at the cheapest prices in town? Don't buy from those guys down the street!" And that's just simply unethical.

Now there's a lot to be liked with TCM. As much as I probably **** people off here on this forum with my criticism, I actually do like things about it. Even to the point of considering going into it as a career (and I still do from time to time, but I like other areas in science more). But its got a number of issues that need to be addressed if its going to be truly taken seriously. First, this BS political cronyism that pervades the alt med industry needs to be eliminated, like yesterday. Now there are certainly issues with the pharm industry and mainstream doctors. Trust me, I've seen them first hand and called out a number of them for it when I was a medic (I was a flight medic in the military, my scope of practice in the field was roughly equivalent to an RN in the civilian world minus pushing ACLS drugs, well legally pushing them anyways. We still did, physicians don't regularly fly medevac and only 2 nurses can't handle every code when there might be 120 patients). Possibly cost myself a potentially locked in med school slot too when I criticized medical ethics of a number of docs to, who was at the time, the president of one med school's admissions board. Of course, his staff later proved me right, but that's another matter. But that doesn't excuse TCM from being just as crony (Tu quoque aside), even worse when its trying to wave that flag left and right against the mainstream med industry to boost their own client base. Hypocritical no?

Second, it needs to modernize. I know people like using the meridian system ect. But scientific standards won't be changing. If TCM practitioners want to be in the same league as a medical doc, they're going to have to suck it up and learn modern A&P. They're going to have to learn how to properly describe and demonstrate they're practice with a modern map of the body and modern knowledge of chemical properties. If they don't want to do that, then don't complain about being labelled "folk" medicine.

And I think the standards need to be higher. You want to go to med school you have to take MCAT and do well, you have to have an outstanding GPA and you have to have a 4 year degree of some sort. Just using one example that I know of:
Florida College of Integrative Medicine- Requirements listed are; only 60 credit hours (30 of which are gen ed) and minimum GPA of a whopping 2.0. Seriously, that's lower than the entrance standards for a nursing program at a tech school, and nurses aren't even diagnosing patients or making medicine by hand no less. And no entrance exam?

TCM schools should require at least a 3.5 on average and applicants should take MCAT. Maybe not as high a score required, but some standard needs to be in place to ensure people have a basic understanding of science as applied to the human body. I'd rather say you should have a 4 year degree with some mandatory courses in mainstream A&P and biochem, but that'd be tacking on possibly more school work to get in and I know that won't happen.

[Kymus]

Maybe I'm just a sensitive dude and perhaps the text medium doesn't help (that, and there's something in the water around here that makes even kinda shor), but either way I appreciate the thoughtful reply that was devoid of unneeded attitude.

To reply to what you said:


And so does TCM. Pathology is a broad term. But in simplest form, its simply the process of analyzing patient presentation and diagnosing the illness. For the life of me I don't understand how TCM guys/gals try to say they aren't doing this, but then say they do it better because they're "holistic." You insinuated this as well in your 2nd part when you claim western med "treats the symptoms." Which is funny, because I distinctly remember in my time in health care trying to treat the cause. Problem is, patients don't listen.

The treatment differs greatly, does it not? TCM doesn't use the same method for each pathology, whereas it is my understanding that Western medicine does (for good or bad). I could take a large quote from The Web that Has No Weaver which illustrates a much better example than what I can conjure, but that would make this post even bigger.. As is, I'm not good at keeping topics like this short.

To paraphrase Web, a range of symptoms are taken in to account, as well as feedback from TCM's particular method of diagnosis. Two people that have a runny nose, fever, and a cough, will not be treated the same.

Anyway, this is really contrary to the point of the topic and I know you were just making a kind side note, so I won't try to delve deeper on this.


Sure there is, you just don't know the name. To use Herb Ox's 1st example. Rhubarb (Da Huang) = Anthraquinone. Or rather, the actual compound in rhubarb that is "active" is known as an anthraquinone.

Pardon me if I am misunderstanding you, but are you saying that there is an OTC medication that has the same effect that dit da jow has?


See part of this disconnect between TCM and mainstream medicine is the language barrier. And well, mainstream isn't going to change its language, because its scientifically standardized.

I find it unfortunate that that's not the only disconnect. :mad:


You as an aspiring TCM practitioner should probably learn to understand these things from a mainstream chemical POV as well. It will make you a better practitioner in the long run.

I take a lot of inspiration from the likes of Chris Kresser (L.Ac), Chris Masterjohn (Ph.D.), and Stephen Guyenet (Ph.D.); they essentially bridge the "holistic" with the "conventional" by staying strictly science-based. That, and, a few life experiences have shown me how much I could benefit my patients with a good western background (I plan on getting my Associates in A&P and I'll be taking at least one course in pharmacology, since a pharmacist friend showed me how that can help as well). Anyway, thanks for the genuine advice.



First, he seems to be the typical type of anti mainstream med type. Which is funny that he uses Wood Lock oil. This is not part of the argument, its just a funny note. Because the same active ingredients are in Icy Hot, which at least here where I live is much easier to find and a lot less expensive. Tiger balm also has the same stuff minus the methyl salicylate, which can be toxic if you have kids around that might ingest it. Of course, MS is also in mouth wash so....

This will get your eyes rolling: that's my article :p

Anti-mainstream med type? Partly true. I've seen enough evidence in (in medical journals, mind you) to make me wary of Western medicine outside of emergency medicine. As I get a better understanding of medcine in general, I'll take a broader view at things. But in general, it bothers me greatly when I see things like statins pushed for heart disease when they block CoQ10 and increase the risk of heart disease (and don't get me started on the cholesterol hypothesis... or the make-believe link between saturated fat and heart disease). Different topic for a different day, if you'd like to have a friendly discussion on it.

In regards to wood lock, I always keep wood lock, dit dia jow, and tiger balm stocked in my medicine cabinet of woo ;). That, and, I want to spend more time studying... I think the term is "dosage-response"?

The book cited, in that particular chapter was talking about RICE as a treatment for something like a sprain. Although I see that the author did mention chronic injury (thankfully, I've never had to deal with that), and your statement seems to address more its usage as a whole. I appreciate your comments, regardless.

As I had thought I had a sprain, I was looking specifically at the treatment for that. Do you feel that the author is wrong that blood flow to the affected area should not be impeded?


First off, claiming that it impedes healing is a statement that needs to be substantiated.

Agreed


It seems to be just more "conventional" TCM wisdom that gets propagated without much questioning

It's certainly possible, and I agree that that is a problem


I don't know about you, but usually I try to take my medical advice from someone that actually has a grasp on basic anatomy and physiology.

An old acupuncturist of mine demonstrated a very good knowledge of A&P when she was treating me for an inflamed hamstring tendon. This is one of the things mentioned above as to why I plan on getting a very solid foundation in it. So yes, I would agree. The author's bio says he studied herbs in China (under direct supervision), but that doesn't mean he studied A&P. He doesn't seem to be L.Ac. (and if he were, he would have studied A&P), so it is possible that he doesn't have a firm grasp on it.

I'm studying A&P right now for my massage license, actually :p. I learned it originally when I got certified, then I spent about 6 years doing nutrition, and now I want to make more money and the laws have since changed, so I'm studying for the NCTMB exam. It bugs me to no end that I have to learn stuff like the integumentary system
which I'll most likely never use knowledge of, but that's life.


The rest of this guy/gal's post goes into a statement of personal bias

:confused::confused: where?


Oh, turns out he wasn't treating his/her swelling at all, because he/she had a fracture...Duh moment.

:o you're misunderstanding. I wasn't trying to self-treat a fracture. I thought I had a sprain since after the accident I had full rang of motion and only slight pain (I've also never had a fracture or bone break at any time in my life until this point). 2 weeks after the accident, I had almost full range of motion, and only slight pain with certain movement and some lifting. To be clear - as everyone seems to misunderstand things I say since I don't write like a lawyer - I'm simply stating here what I was thinking at that moment. That is all.


It showed that 1) you should never self diagnose.

True. But I had a 60+hr work week, no general physician, and a job that was absolutely medieval when it came to call-outs and such (yes, even with a doctor's note..).


2) One should be discerning in your sources of info regarding A&P and medical advice. And blogs usually aren't it.

:confused: The source was a book: A Tooth From the Tiger's Mouth, which is about the treatment of sports injurties with Chinese herbal medicine.


TCM practitioners aren't the best sources of info regarding what is or isn't done in mainstream med practice

No disagreement.


4) Don't be a dummy.

I was really hoping I could find a clip of Mr. T saying this, but I couldn't :mad:


Had this person swallowed their bias and went to get a freaking xray following the incident (rather than waiting 2 whole weeks before acknowledging the obvious) a lot of pain could have been avoided (like possibly avoiding surgery).

Really, it had a lot less to do with bias and more the fact that I had no real access and there's the work nazis.. I only was able to see a doctor after they told me they wanted a Dr.'s note (since I had some trouble with lifting).

Though with the scaphoid, you're right, surgery could possibly have been prevented assuming that it wasn't displaced when I fell or in the days after that.

Anyway, as I said, I appreciate your cordial response and desire to inform and educate :). Generally discussions like this breed shouting, ad-hom attacks, and conspiracy theories... Like a Chinese persona and a Japanese person trying to get along....

[Kymus]

SoCo, I actually agree with a lot of what you said :eek:

I doub't we'll see eye to eye on everything (our backgrounds give us our own personal bias), but I think I agree with ~90% of what you said.

As I had mentioned in another post, there is a lot of clearning up that needs to be done on both sides.

I think both sides need to focus more on the science, to keep things really simple (I really don't feel like typing another long post... I'm sure you understand after your rant :p).

What gets in the way of that is likely:

Money
Personal bias


That's my personal guess, as an amateur.

This (http://www.tsca.edu/) is the school I plan on attending for acupuncture/tcm. I dunno about anymore, but when I found it ~6 years ago it was listed as - I believe - #5 or #6 in the country. I'm curious on your opinion about what you feel their program may be lacking?

I do agree though that more time needs to be spent on medical science.

I have some serious gipes with the design of most acupuncture studies today, and I plan on talking to a few people who know much more than me on the matter to see if this is really a design flaw or if I'm not understanding something. Either way, I plan on (trying) to emulate the change I'd like to see...

Keyword: try :p

[KungFubar]

are meridians actual observable anatomical structures or just hocus pocus, does it approach the realm of the supernatural?

[SoCo KungFu]

The treatment differs greatly, does it not? TCM doesn't use the same method for each pathology, whereas it is my understanding that Western medicine does (for good or bad). I could take a large quote from The Web that Has No Weaver which illustrates a much better example than what I can conjure, but that would make this post even bigger.. As is, I'm not good at keeping topics like this short.

What page? I have this book but its been a while since I've read it

To paraphrase Web, a range of symptoms are taken in to account, as well as feedback from TCM's particular method of diagnosis. Two people that have a runny nose, fever, and a cough, will not be treated the same.

Depends. Are the causes different? That's the issue. So no, in that sense, TCM is no different than mainstream. You look at symptoms as well as a number of other diagnostic measures. In TCM this would be things like tongue coloration. In western med it'd be a mouth swab or whatever to test for a pathogen. if the cause is the same, then yeah the Tx will likely be same or similar (contingent upon any other factors that might come up with that individual and the condition). But isn't then that the definition of holistic? Now if your example is run of the mill cold, then no there's not much western med will do outside of treat the symptoms because that's all anyone can do. This goes for TCM too, until the day comes someone can prove that some herbal concoction has antiviral properties.

Pardon me if I am misunderstanding you, but are you saying that there is an OTC medication that has the same effect that dit da jow has?

Are there topical meds with similar properties such as anti inflammatory, pain managing and anticoagulating? Yep sure are. OTC? Unfortunately no. Of course, this goes back to my point on classification. This is where employing a "supplement" is a benefit that TCM enjoys. If these compounds were "medications" we'd all be ass out in our jow without a "prescription." Of course, the other side is, look how many jow formulas/premades on the market are suspect. So it goes both ways.

I find it unfortunate that that's not the only disconnect. :mad:

Me too.

This will get your eyes rolling: that's my article :p

So then a lot of the confusion in my post then was based on the me not knowing that was yours. I thought you were quoting a blog that you followed and in that blog the author was quoting a book. I thought you were a 3rd hand source basically of the text from that book. If that clears up confusion.



when I see things like statins pushed for heart disease when they block CoQ10 and increase the risk of heart disease (and don't get me started on the cholesterol hypothesis...

Here's a secret. There's a lot of mainstream docs that abstain from statins too. The problem is, medical doctors are not researchers. Much like TCM providers, they're at the mercy of what the research fields present in terms of evidence. And for a good while (until the flaws in the meta studies were found) the evidence pointed to cholesterol and was supported at the time at least by the statin studies.

In regards to wood lock, I always keep wood lock, dit dia jow, and tiger balm stocked in my medicine cabinet of woo ;). That, and, I want to spend more time studying... I think the term is "dosage-response"?

I like my tiger balm. If for nothing else than a little of the procedes get donated to save some tigers. The active ingredients are largely the same as woodlock, not certain on absorption rate. Gets massaged in anyways. And on the matter, technically massage is also contraindicated on traumatic injuries as it can further rupture the capillaries increasing swelling. So they say at least. No Tx is perfect yeah?

Do you feel that the author is wrong that blood flow to the affected area should not be impeded?

Not necessarily in that blood flow is impeded. Just not convinced it makes much difference in the long run really. And it certainly doesn't appear to effect the lymphatic system that also plays a large role. Here's the thing, increased hydrostatic pressure in the blood vessel (which is basically systolic BP) does force fluids out of the vasculature. This is the case with people suffering chronic high BP and all that edema they have. But its also possible that increased hydrostatic pressure in the interstitial space forces fluids more readily into the lymph capillaries. We're talking a healthy person, obviously this is out the window in chronic conditions. But that's also a matter of other problems like massive diminished venous return (as opposed to simply a localized restriction bandage on a healthy person). And really, the problem is in the studies. Like I said, his understanding of anatomy is flawed. The better argument that I provided was that the studies themselves are flawed. No one is really looking actively at this stuff because its sort of a small time issue really in the grand scheme of things. So its all meta studies and that means sifting through whatever reports and crap you can find on the topic which means not much in way of controls, ample pub bias, etc.


:confused::confused: where?

I misunderstood your restrictions against going in and getting a work up on the wrist as being biased as in your blog you mentioned not having much use in western med except emergencies, as opposed to as you put it here with "work nazis." That was on me.

[SoCo KungFu]

(our backgrounds give us our own personal bias)

I no longer work in healthcare and my certs have since expired. I've moved on to other things. So any bias I have is from the perspective of someone that finished a degree in biology, worked in cancer research for a bit and is in grad school following other interests. My only gripe is with faulty assertions and unsupported claims.

I have NO problem in tentatively accepting the validity of something such as massage, acupuncture or jow (which would be weird considering how much jow I have sitting in my closet). And that heck, physical touch in mammalian development has epigenetic implications that bring effects over the course of a lifetime. But I acknowledge there's a big difference between my personal acceptance and actual, legitimate verification.


This (http://www.tsca.edu/) is the school I plan on attending for acupuncture/tcm. I dunno about anymore, but when I found it ~6 years ago it was listed as - I believe - #5 or #6 in the country. I'm curious on your opinion about what you feel their program may be lacking?

Its hard to say honestly. They may be really good but the website kind of sucks to be blunt. They list 9 hours of required "biosciences." Which is a weird word to me, biology is a hard science. But anyways, I cant see a listing on what these actually are and the link only brings up a page with a credit card payment form. I can tell you that you can take them at the college...for an additional fee. Personally, I think any class required for a degree, should be included in the calculated tuition. Not extra. Without knowing what they are demanding, I can't say whether or not its possible you can fill these out in your 60 hour prereq. But just know, that most science courses in a traditional univ are 4 hours each. There may be a couple non majors courses you can take at 3 hours but there's not many. You will probably have to end up taking more than the required simply based on how the courses lot out hours, which also means you'll be paying more for those classes though (extra hour per class and lab fee). You worked in nutrition right? I'm assuming you have an associates at least. Did your coursework include this?

I also have a big issue with any medical program that does not cover evolution as it pertains to medical science. You're working with administered substances, whether want to call them medicine, supplements, whatever. You should at least have some basis in the curriculum in immunology, as well as how evolution has shaped the development of various pathogens (and hence, why your herbal remedies will actually work). Whether you call it "excessive yin" or whatever, or acknowledge it as an infectious agent, it makes no difference. You WILL be working with this if you are in healthcare. They may offer this in the coursework, but its not explicit.

Course descriptions seem generic and I'm not sure what everything would entail, this isn't my field so you'd have to defer to Dale Dugas, Herb Ox or one of the others. My main concern in some of these is that, there is a disproportionately small number of hours given to research methodology in the curriculum. That's disappointing. Frankly, understanding research is one of the most important skills a medical professional can learn. Unfortunately, its not often taken as seriously as it should be. This is probably even more an issue in TCM, I mean they've only been doing a lot of the same stuff how many centuries? If you don't understand research design, how will you appropriately judge information either for or against the efficacy of some treatment you may be performing? This is an every day affair in the life of a physician. Not sure how much they're trying to evolve TCM though, not my area. But don't seem like much. And when they say that the anatomy and physiology courses are to paraphrase, what you need to know in order to practice OM; well that's really vague. And frankly, they've been doing TCM for how many centuries now with superficial anatomy and no concept of modern physiology. I think those courses should probably be admissions reqs from a traditional institution and then have coursework tailoring that to TCM in the acupuncture school. I just read too many of many of these forums and such where the average TCM practitioner is making obvious mistakes in their assertions, largely do to a poor understanding of conventional, "mainstream" understanding.

On another note:
I'm also concerned with the costs of attendance vs the accessibility of non loan-based financial aid. I'm assuming since you have interest in pharmacology that you will be going the full 6 years, 4 years OM and 2 years herbology? That $75k ish tuition, after loan interest etc, will cost you upwards of $85-90k depending on how you plan your loan repayments. I don't know what the average income is for this field, but if you cover tuition through loans then you're going to be hitting around a $715 loan payment each month on top of whatever your normal bills will be once you're out and working (estimated $75k tuition for full 6 years + interest at 6.8%, payed over the standard 10 year repayment plan).

They do seem to have a fairly high graduation rate (around 83%). I'm not sure what the average is for that nationally. 89% of graduates claim to "currently practice acupuncture." Now how that relates to job placement is not explicit. The question is, how many are financially successful?

They are an ACAOM accredited college which is good, obviously. One thing about these types of schools is that they can lose accreditation in a heart beat. That FL school I mentioned has their accreditation in a probationary status at the moment.

Others here would be better judges than I.

[Kymus]

Thanks for the feedback, SoCo :)

Yeah, the tuition is crazy. It doesn't help that the school is in Manhattan. They just started a doctorate program as - I believe - the material has just been finalized and they are one of the schools that will be piloting it. So, my intention is to take the Ph.D. program as well as the herbs, yes.

Supposedly acupuncture pays well as a career; especially after the 5 year mark. But, that's just statistics or whatever. I don't have any friends that practice. I plan on saving and investing to try to offset the expenses at least a little bit. It's something.

[Kymus]

are meridians actual observable anatomical structures or just hocus pocus, does it approach the realm of the supernatural?

TCM can be explained through western means, but it's just steeped in old-world terminolgy. It also doesn't help that it's a b!tch to define qi.

Meridian lines - as I understand it - are not part of actual TCM but were essentially made up something like 200 years ago by a westerner. How it came to be accepted as fact, I do not know.

See this thread: http://kungfuqigong.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65979

it may help.

[Eric Hunstad]

Wow Soco interested in a career in TCM? Has Hell frozen over?:)

Kymus referenced a link to a forward thinking acupuncturist Chris Kresser, who in my opinion reflects a new breed of acupuncturist. The acupuncture field is being rocked by a book that pointed out the Emperor wears no clothes. It is The Dao of Chinese Medicine by Donald Kendall

http://www.amazon.com/Dao-Chinese-Medicine-Understanding-Ancient/dp/0195921046/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1370823781&sr=8-1&keywords=dao+of+chinese+medicine

The book will get the majority of acupuncturists panties in a bind because it declares that acupuncture is not nor ever was "energy medicine". Individuals such as Kresser and Bob Doane have ruffled the feathers of many in the TCM community by stating that:
1. The acupuncture "meridians" were simply used for anatomical reference, much like the longitude and latitude lines on a globe. They are not physical structures.
2. Qi in a medical context never meant "energy'. It means "oxygenated blood" aka "vital air" or "the function of something" (for example "kidney qi deficiency" means lowered kidney function)
3. "Mai" as in "channel" really means "blood vessel", not energy meridian

Go to www.elotus.org and click on "speakers" and watch free videos by Bob Doane to get a taste of what I feel is the future of acupuncture.

Soco: You lamented that most TCM practitioners do not have a good grasp of A&P, but I feel you are only partly right. I feel they have good A skills (especially surface anatomy) but poor P skills. I think that's due to the fact that in TCM school, we learn both medical A&P and TCM "energetics" and when you are just starting in the field, you are typically "in love" with the TCM stuff and also naively think that "Western medicine" isn't as important to the scope of practice of a TCM provider (big mistake!!!). I know at the time, I simply memorized the medical info for the tests then promptly forgot it so as to focus on TCM (as I said, big mistake!).

We did take classes in A&P. microbiology, radiology, etc., but it wasn't our focus. Anyway, interesting thread.

[Kymus]

Go to www.elotus.org

They got a hot chick on the front page and they're saying her name is "Mathew" :mad::mad::mad:

The site sounds awesome. I'm going to poke at it. It's nice to know that Chris Kresser isn't the only one that's trying to bridge the gap.

Are you familiar with http://www.traditionalstudies.org/? Dunno if it bridges the gap, but it's an attempt to bring the old-world skills to the present day practitioner.

[Kellen Bassette]

Does it have basically the same effect as Boxing Liniment or is it much different?

[SoCo KungFu]

Does it have basically the same effect as Boxing Liniment or is it much different?

The active ingredient in boxing liniment is methyl salicylate. The same thing is in wood lock oil and icy hot.

[Kellen Bassette]

The active ingredient in boxing liniment is methyl salicylate. The same thing is in wood lock oil and icy hot.

Is this the same for Jow or are there different active ingredients in Jow?

[Raipizo]

No, some jows have menthol in it, but mostly they don't. They rely on herbs and minerals.

[SoCo KungFu]

Is this the same for Jow or are there different active ingredients in Jow?

No. Different active ingredients. And to clarity, on the comment by Raipizo. Methyl Salicylate is not menthol. Different molecules, although they have similar superficial effects. But MS is more reactive, has 2 functional groups to methol's 1. Methyl salicylate once absorbed, is metabolized into salicylic acid. Salicylic acid is an NSAID. Meaning it can inhibit prostaglandins, which are responsible for stimulating inflammation. So, MS while weak does have a pretty founded mechanism of activity.

And for the record, methyl salicylate is also known as oil of wintergreen. Its a product of an herb.

As for jow, you have to go on a ingredient by ingredient basis as to what is actually doing what. I have a few recipes written down, I suppose I could dig them out of boxes and do it if I get time. Right now most of my references are boxed up since I'm moving to Ohio.

The other (and primary) difficulty is, jow is multiple ingredients being heated in an alcohol solution and then aged. This is 100% chemistry (and again why I think anyone wanting to go into TCM should get a heaping dose of chemistry in their prereqs). Its not enough to know what compounds are in each ingredient, but how those compounds interact in the creation process to form the final product.

As much as TCM purists might hate me for saying this, jow is not natural. Its no different than any pharm science. Only its less pure. But its 100% man made.

[Raipizo]

I saw the reference to icy hot, which the ones I've used had menthol possibly the wintergreen oil also. But yeah I'm sure some jows have that in it.

[SoCo KungFu]

I saw the reference to icy hot, which the ones I've used had menthol possibly the wintergreen oil also. But yeah I'm sure some jows have that in it.

True, some of them do have both depending on the brand

[GeneChing]

Traditional medicine Tie Da Zhi Tong Gao found to contain scheduled poison (https://www.nst.com.my/news/nation/2018/09/408251/traditional-medicine-tie-da-zhi-tong-gao-found-contain-scheduled-poison)

https://assets.nst.com.my/images/articles/img_20180214_102411_1536060549.jpg
Tie Da Zhi Tong Gao – a topical paste – had been marketed as providing relief for bruises and sprains, as well as muscle and joint pains.

By Irwan Shafrizan Ismail - September 4, 2018 @ 7:29pm

PUTRAJAYA: Traditional Chinese topical medicine Tie Da Zhi Tong Gao has been found to contain the scheduled poison Diphenhydramine – leading the Health Ministry to immediately cancel its product registration.

Tie Da Zhi Tong Gao – a topical paste – had been marketed as providing relief for bruises and sprains, as well as muscle and joint pains.

Diphenhydramine is an antihistamine which reduces allergic reactions – but when applied topically, leads to rashes, itchiness and sensitivity to light – which is why it is controlled under the Poisons Act 1952 and can only be prescribed by doctors and pharmacists.

The Health Ministry’s director-general Datuk Dr Noor Hisham Abdullah said the selling and distribution of the product should be stopped immediately.

“The Drug Control Authority cancelled the product registration on Aug 28 following the discovery of the scheduled poison, which is not allowed in the formulation,” he said in a statement today.

https://assets.nst.com.my/images/articles/img_20180214_102526_1536060552.jpg
Diphenhydramine is an antihistamine which reduces allergic reactions – but when applied topically, leads to rashes, itchiness and sensitivity to light – which is why it is controlled under the Poisons Act 1952 and can only be prescribed by doctors and pharmacists.

He also urged the public to avoid buying and using the paste, and advised those currently using the product to seek medical help should they experience any discomfort or other unwanted symptoms.

Dr Noor Hisham warned that anyone selling or distributing Tie Da Zhi Tong Gao would be violating the Control of Drugs and Cosmetics Regulations 1984 and could be penalised with a fine of not more than RM25,000, or imprisonment for not more than three years, or both, for the first offence.

“For the subsequent offence, (you could be sentenced to) a fine of not more than RM50,000, or jail time of not more than five years, or both.

“Companies that commit the offence can be fined up to RM50,000 for the first offence and RM100,000 for the subsequent offence,” he added.

Dr Nooh Hisham said consumers can check the registration status of any product at http://npra.moh.gov.my/.

“Those seeking information or want to lodge a complaint regarding a product can do so at http://moh.spab.gov.my,” he added.

This Toxic Chinese Medicine (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?56628-Toxic-Chinese-medicine) is a Dit Da plaster (as in Dit Da Jow (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?2816-Dit-Da-Jow)). Tie Da = Dit Da (same Chinese characters 跌打)