newbie training questions

[dodger87]

Hello, im new to these forums and i just had some questions. This is how i train each day (well when im not busy with homework):

arms: chinups (i grip on to the bar with my hands on the outside then swap and grip on the bar with my hands on the inside), chest pushups (i place both hands directly underneath my chest then go as low as possible to the ground without touching it), knuckle pushups, handstand pushups (i balance by leaning my feet on my wall), handstands (walk on my hands across the room and try to balance on my way), finger pushups (i do it with all five fingers then swap to just two fingers), one hand pushups on each arm, i dont know if v-holds count as training the arms but you gotta hold yourself on two ledges with your arms, i was thinking of getting this neat little wheel where i kneel on the ground and hold the wheel with both arms and roll as far as possible without my body touching the ground and then try and pull myself back up. and i also punch my boxing bag a lot.

legs: horse stances, this squatting thing where i squat on the ground and put both arms behind my back and just jump up and down in the same position, i also kick my boxing bag alot and practice my kicks (side kick, front kick) in slow motion, like really slow. and my cousin who did shaolin for two years taught me this sitting thingo where i spread my legs around 2 feet and then sit down with my knees touching the floor but my feet directly sideways on the ground, its suppose to make my legs more flexible or something, and theres this other thing where i stand straight and really slowly lift my legs sideways upwards until it is directly horizontal, i think it trains the hips as well im not sure, and i skip with one leg at a time, i think it makes you feel lighter on your feet, like more balance or something, i read it from this bruce lee book.

abs: situps (i think most people bend their knees and do this, but i just leave mine flat on the ground without anything holding on to it and curve my toes towards my head and when i come up i try to press my head on to my knees, can almost do that), v-holds (where u get two chairs and put it parralel to each other, then you lift urself up with the two chairs and lift both your legs up till it is horizontal and try and hold it there for as long as you can.).

flexibility: that stretching thingo where i stand straight with my feet together and grab my heels and put my head on my knees, splits.

fitness: running around my suburb, skipping, and shadow boxing.
i think thats it.

i just wanted to ask you guys which exercises might not be good for me, some people said that squatting exercise i do could lead to knee injuries. and if any of you could suggest any new exercises for me to do, and can you also explain them, because some of you use nicknames i am not fimiliar with.

i also see that alot of you people use weights to train, i was just curious about this, but doesnt using weights build up your muscles rather than train your joints so you won't be able to attack or move as fast. i just thought throwing your weight around was better. also i heard weights can stunt ur growth, hrmm.. i think thats mainly because i'm 16-17 and still growing.

thanks in advance!

[reneritchie]

Any excercise can be bad for you if:

1) You lack proper form (incorrect angles strain the joints and can lead to RSI)
2) You have a personal anomaly that can be effected by them (genetic or pre-existing health condition)
3) You do not provide your body with sufficient nutrition (good whole food, lots of protein, leafy greens, fruit, maybe supplements if you have particular problems in some area) and sleep to rebuild muscle in between workouts.

From what you wrote, I would suggest you are overtraining and will not achieve optimal results with that schedule (you are not giving your body time to rebuild muscle bigger/stronger).

I have heard you can train abs and calves every day, other body parts should probably be 2-3 times a week, with one max day (where you severely strain them) and a lighter day or two where you give them a little zing to keep things moving.

That, with plenty of rest and nutrition, would be good for strength building.

If you're more after cardio, I would suggest Taku's intervals or Scrapper's workouts: http://trainforstrength.com/index.shtml

Weights are okay, I prefer dumbells (or club or kettle bells) as they require independant stabalization and wider range of motion is possible.

For stretching, I prefer PNF. Do a google search for PNF stretching (or active isolation, I think is another good one).

If you're primary goal is martial arts, however, you will need to decide how much you want to be attribute (strength/speed/conditoning/resilience) dependant, and how much you want to be skill (timing, sensitivity, experience, etc.) dependant. Strength and speed can make up for skill, but if you find someone stronger or faster, they won't serve you as well as skill.

So, being in good shape is beneficial, but if you have the time, working on your MA should be the primary concern. (If you have a partner, that can prove an incredible workout all its own).

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by dodger87
my cousin who did shaolin for two years taught me this sitting thingo where i spread my legs around 2 feet and then sit down with my knees touching the floor but my feet directly sideways on the ground, its suppose to make my legs more flexible or something...

This sounds similar to the hurdler stretch. I ran track for a few years in my high school days and we were taught that this stretch is bad for your knees. One of my kung fu brothers played soccer and did a lot of streches like this. He now has bad knees. I can't say they are directly related because I am not a doctor, but be safe.

I ditto what Rene said above. My sifu also explains to us we can do abs every day because they heal pretty quickly. If you want to work out every day I would target certain muscle groups each day and work on them. One day work on arms like bicept and tricept, along with forearm and wrist. Next day work on legs.

Stretching is very important and sometimes over looked in kung fu. Especially in systems where they don't advocate high kicking. You do not need to be able to do the splits to use wing chun effectively. Heck I bet most Sifus out there can't do the splits. However, if you have the flexability then you have the ability to use those techniques which require the flexability. You never know when you might need it, and it also makes it easier to later cross train in systems that do advocate high kicking. I suggest looking into yoga perhaps. Yoga stretching has deeply helped my flexability, and its good for your health.

Jumping rope is suppose to be a great endurance/cardio work out for martial artists. Almost every boxer I have met jumps rope so they can last 10 rounds if needed.

Weight lifting does not decrease your flexability, not stretching or not stretching properly will decrease your flexability. If you do tons of reps of lesser weight it will increase strength. If you do less reps with heavy weights it will build mass.

[anerlich]

Gangsterfist is correct about the "sitting thingy".

Hurdler's stretch can be OK, but you have to be VERY careful with form and be pretty flexible in the hips already or you can damage your knees. The exercise isn't dangerous if you do it correctly, but most people don't have the flexibility or understand their bodies well enough to get value, rather than injury, from it. That is why it is discouraged.

The exercise you are talking about, which I assume involves you kneeling down , rotating your feet out and putting your butt on the floor between them, is REALLY BAD for your knees. It puts undue strain on the knee ligaments, which you DO NOT want to stretch.

I too practice yoga, but some positions are bad for your knees, and others you have to be very flexible before attempting - bull posture is a sure fire knee buster, as is lotus unless you have really flexible hips already. The standing triangles, extended triangles, warrior poses, and sun salutes and related sequences, are really good for general relaxation and flexibility.

[Toby]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
If you do tons of reps of lesser weight it will increase strength. If you do less reps with heavy weights it will build mass. I hope you mean the opposite to this. High volume workouts build mass. Low volume workouts with heavy weights build strength.

[Toby]

Originally posted by dodger87
i was thinking of getting this neat little wheel where i kneel on the ground and hold the wheel with both arms and roll as far as possible without my body touching the ground and then try and pull myself back up. Arggh! Don't mention the ab roller! :p

[IronFist]

lol, don't ask martial artists for fitness advice :D Especially not Wing Chunners :D :D :D

It's good that you posted in the training forum, too.

[dodger87]

so if the "hurdler's stretch" is bad for the knees then would practicing the splits be okay? because when i find them both to feel quite similar.

um some of you say that i shouldn't work on any area's besides the abs every day because it is over-working. i usually rest these areas when i feel some of those muscles in that area expanding (thats when it feels sore), and then when those areas arent sore anymore i usually go back to my normal routine. is this okay? but i think you guys might be refering to people who use weights as training because that trains the muscles more but my exercises train my joints more so i dont think im really overworking my muscles.

[reneritchie]

It's my understanding that joints need rest to rebuild just like muscles. You make a muscle or joint stronger by straining them and then letting them rebuild to deal with the greater strain. If you forget about the second part of the equation (rebuilding) you will not make your joints stronger, you will simply stress them over and over again, adding micro-tear to micro-tear, until something happens and a bad injury results (strained/torn joint which, due to less blood flow than a muscle, takes a long, long time and serious physio to properly rebuild).

When you are 18, you feel as though you are immortal and invincible. What you really are, however, is in a time delay and any abuse you think you can handle now will come back and haunt you when you hit 30, 40, 50, etc. (and wish you'd been more careful in your youth).

Equal parts work, rest, and nutrition. Miss any part of that, and you will likely suffer some way, some when.

[foolinthedeck]

i think thats it.

do you do any martial arts as well?
do you do wing chun?

SLT

[IronFist]

my exercises train my joints more so i dont think im really overworking my muscles.

I would just love to hear how one trains the joints more than the muscles.

[Edmund]

Originally posted by anerlich

The exercise you are talking about, which I assume involves you kneeling down , rotating your feet out and putting your butt on the floor between them, is REALLY BAD for your knees. It puts undue strain on the knee ligaments, which you DO NOT want to stretch.


Sounds like a wrongly done version of Virasana.
The feet should not be turned sideways in virasana.
The tops of the feet should be on the floor.

As for it being bad for your knees, virasana is as bad for you as any other pose that you can't get into but try to anyway.

[Edmund]

Originally posted by Toby
I hope you mean the opposite to this. High volume workouts build mass. Low volume workouts with heavy weights build strength.

Well volume is generally considered as the no. of reps x weight so Gangsterfist may have had the same total volume in both cases.

Nevertheless the assertion that higher reps & lower weights build strength is a bit strange. I suppose it depends what you define the word "strength" means.

If you mean "ability to lift the maximum amount of weight" then I think Gangsterfist is incorrect.

[Toby]

Well, yeah, you're on the same page as me. So say I do 400lbs * 10 reps = 4000lbs total volume for one exercise. I'd consider that low total volume with heavy weights. A bodybuilder might do 200lbs * 40 reps = 8000lbs. At the end of the day, a strength workout (the 1st one) will give the lifter a better 1RM. The bodybuilding workout will give the lifter a better mass gain but probably not the same 1RM as the strength lifter. And by strength, I mean what you do in your last sentence.

[dodger87]

Originally posted by IronFist


I would just love to hear how one trains the joints more than the muscles.

i was actually comparing pushups to doing weights. i thought that pushups trained the joints more then weights did.




do you do any martial arts as well?
do you do wing chun?

SLT


No i haven't gone around to joining any martial arts clubs, but i've read quite a bit on Bruce Lee and the way of the intercepting fist, i think Jeet Kune Do and a little on wing chun, Karate and Tae Kwon Do.

[dodger87]

Originally posted by reneritchie
It's my understanding that joints need rest to rebuild just like muscles. You make a muscle or joint stronger by straining them and then letting them rebuild to deal with the greater strain. If you forget about the second part of the equation (rebuilding) you will not make your joints stronger, you will simply stress them over and over again, adding micro-tear to micro-tear, until something happens and a bad injury results (strained/torn joint which, due to less blood flow than a muscle, takes a long, long time and serious physio to properly rebuild).

When you are 18, you feel as though you are immortal and invincible. What you really are, however, is in a time delay and any abuse you think you can handle now will come back and haunt you when you hit 30, 40, 50, etc. (and wish you'd been more careful in your youth).

Equal parts work, rest, and nutrition. Miss any part of that, and you will likely suffer some way, some when.

How much rest is required? i thought one night's good sleep is enough. Is there a way to tell if i am over straining my joints? Is it really that bad? because i had an uncle from Vietnam (now in america) come visit us and he use to worked out on his arms and legs everyday when he was young and he was around 50ish when he visited us and he seemed in pretty fine condition.

[Nick Forrer]

As a general rule of thumb I would never train (as in weight train (obviously the intensity of the excercise/amount of weight you use plays a part)) the same body part two days in a row. Personally, I have been lifting weights for around 10 years now and I have found that to make continued progress (as in strength gains-extra reps and/or heavier weights) i musn't work out more frequently then once a week. Whenever I do I actually get weaker since my body hasn't had time to recover let alone grow from the previous work out. Obviously recovery ability varies from person to person. But lifting weights everyday is a sure fire recipe for overtraining. In short I subscribe to the view that to make strength gains your workouts should be intense, short and infrequent but consistent. Make sure you train to muscular failure and dont get caught up in doing loads of sets. You should also keep a training journal. This will help in monitoring your progress and to see the effect of any changes you decide to make.

I also reccommend any books by the late Mike Mentzer.

Hope this helps

Best
Nick

[Toby]

Originally posted by dodger87
i was actually comparing pushups to doing weights. i thought that pushups trained the joints more then weights did. Your muscles don't know the difference between pushups and benchpress, apart from slightly different actions and different amount of resistance. For me, doing 30 pushups would (for all intensive purposes) be the same as doing 30 reps of 70-80kg on benchpress.

As to how much to train, well, I train every day. Same muscle groups every day. If you're interested, I do the PTP program. Works for me. I used to do 3 times a week with different muscles each time (chest & biceps, legs and abs, back and triceps). That worked well, too. Only problem for me was it was a hypertrophy workout, and I'd frequently get such tired muscles that it would impact my MA and other things, like riding my bike. The biggest benefit of PTP is the lack of tiredness/soreness. I'm also breaking PR's after lifting for 6 years.

If you're struggling to lift the same one day as you did the previous time, then you're probably overdoing it with your workout. You can, however, do a light workout to help the muscles recover. E.g. do benchpress up to 100% of 1RM one day, then the next day or the day after do a few sets @ 20-30% of your 1RM.

Last thing - concentrate on compound lifts. They're more functional. Squats, deadlifts, olympic lifts, pullups. Don't isolate muscles unless you're into bodybuilding or addressing a deficiency.

[dodger87]

Originally posted by Toby

Last thing - concentrate on compound lifts. They're more functional. Squats, deadlifts, olympic lifts, pullups. Don't isolate muscles unless you're into bodybuilding or addressing a deficiency.

sorry could you explain these exercises more? i don't really know what these nicknames mean.

If you're struggling to lift the same one day as you did the previous time, then you're probably overdoing it with your workout.

yeah i dont feel weaker the next day after i trained so i didn't think i was overstraining. and by the way i dont lift or train with weights i only throw my own weight around.

[IronFist]

Toby is correct.

[Edmund]

Dear Dodger87,

You've posed such a broad question. "Good" and "Bad" exercises are subjective to your goals. (Though there are some exercises that I would just consider bad in all cases.)

I don't see the point in recommending to you only compound lifts rather than isolation exercises (because you supposedly aren't a bodybuilder). Compound lifts could be as useful to you as a kick in the head depending on your goals.

Work out what your goals are and then choose exercises and routines based on that. Not sure why you consider what you are doing is training your joints. I don't think the pushups, situps etc. are doing that particularly.

[Toby]

Well, it depends. Compound exercises are usually the most beneficial for a number of reasons. Don't get me wrong - I used to do e.g. biceps curls on the preacher bench, standing reverse bicep curls and concentration dumbbell curls. Nowadays I'd prefer chinups. But whatever, I don't want to get in an argument over compound vs isolation.

dodger87, I can't really break it down more than that. I'm not going to try to explain the lifts if you don't already know them. You could get an injury if you don't do them properly. In a few short words, squats are putting the bar across your shoulders and squatting down. Deadlifts are lifting the bar up off the ground to waist level. Olympic lifts aren't my specialty but I will get into them eventually. Clean and jerks and snatches can be seen at the Olympics (duh!) or maybe if you get cable you'll see some lifting comp on TV that has them. C & J you lift the bar off the ground to your shoulders in one movement, then up over your head in the 2nd movement. Snatches you lift the bar from the ground straight up over your head. There are a few other Olympic lifts besides C&J's and snatches to look into. Great for power development. Pullups are like chinups but with your hands pronated (palms facing away). There's lots more to it all than that, but it sounds like you would need specialist advice and coaching to help you start a weights program.

[dodger87]

Originally posted by Toby
Well, it depends. Compound exercises are usually the most beneficial for a number of reasons. Don't get me wrong - I used to do e.g. biceps curls on the preacher bench, standing reverse bicep curls and concentration dumbbell curls. Nowadays I'd prefer chinups. But whatever, I don't want to get in an argument over compound vs isolation.

dodger87, I can't really break it down more than that. I'm not going to try to explain the lifts if you don't already know them. You could get an injury if you don't do them properly. In a few short words, squats are putting the bar across your shoulders and squatting down. Deadlifts are lifting the bar up off the ground to waist level. Olympic lifts aren't my specialty but I will get into them eventually. Clean and jerks and snatches can be seen at the Olympics (duh!) or maybe if you get cable you'll see some lifting comp on TV that has them. C & J you lift the bar off the ground to your shoulders in one movement, then up over your head in the 2nd movement. Snatches you lift the bar from the ground straight up over your head. There are a few other Olympic lifts besides C&J's and snatches to look into. Great for power development. Pullups are like chinups but with your hands pronated (palms facing away). There's lots more to it all than that, but it sounds like you would need specialist advice and coaching to help you start a weights program.

The thing is I don't want to do weights, i don't think weights is the ONLY way to train for MA. and i'm sure there are many people out there who don't use weights to train but throw their own weight around. Main reason i dont want to do weights is because i'm still pretty young and it might stunt my growth.

My goals are to have fast and powerful kicks and punches. Be a good fighter (self-defence). I dont really care about getting big muscles and stuff like that.

It seems some people are getting confused about some of my sentences. I meant to say that pushups train joints more then lifting weights or whatever. Well at least that is what i have been told, if i'm wrong you could please correct me.

[Toby]

No, weights are most certainly not the only effective training aid. But they are probably the most effective training aid to getting strong, and that has good carry-over to MA.

As to jumping, running, etc (in your last post and in the other thread), if that's really your goal, then train Olympic lifts. The reality is, they're the most effective exercises you can do for power. Also train sprints, bagwork and other specific drills targeting what you want to achieve. Might look into plyometrics, but you need a high baseline of fitness for that or you risk injury.

Weightlifting doesn't necessarily make you "getting big muscles and stuff like that". Depends on what sort of lifting you do. I do powerlifts on a strength program. Not designed to build mass at all, just strength.

If you're young, by all means don't weight train. I'm certainly no expert on age and weights, but it's not worth the risk. I think it's fine when you stop growing, so like 17-18 or so. Maybe do some research into it.

Pushups don't train the joints more than benchpress. Whoever said that was wrong. End of story.

[Edmund]

Originally posted by dodger87
My goals are to have fast and powerful kicks and punches. Be a good fighter (self-defence). I dont really care about getting big muscles and stuff like that.


Well looking at your goals, the main component you are missing is any actual martial arts training. That sort of stuff will be pretty helpful if you want to be a good fighter.

If anything, you should emphasize learning some fighting skills first and supplement that with conditioning exercises.

[anerlich]

Edmund is correct.

Fast and powerful kicks and punches are no good if you don't have the timing to apply them effectively. And fast and pwerful kicks and punches depend far more on effective technique than on strength.

Becoming a good fighter without practising fighting skills is about as likely as becoming a surfing champion by runnig marathons along the beach.

A person with moderate skills, training and experience will have it all over a fit person who has none (and the skill training generally adds to general fitness in any case). If both have some skill, then the attributes of conditioning and strength can make a difference.

Get thee to a fighting gym, school or academy.

[dodger87]

i've searched out quite a lot of martial arts schools already but i dont want to and am not allowed to join any this year because it is my final year in high school and will determine whether i get into a uni or not. so all i can do is just train at home.

anyways since i was overstraining myself before i've made a new routine. i train my arms/legs/abs/flexibility in one day, and on the two next days i train my fitness like skipping and running and that sorta stuff. and the cycle is repeated. What do you guys think? any suggestions?

[Gangsterfist]

I would recomend stretching everyday. Make sure you roll your hip sockets and your shoulder sockets as well.

Flexability is one of the most overlooked things in fitness and in martial arts. I know a guy who has trained many more years than I have and he cannot even touch his feet in a face to knee stretch. I still wouldn't want to fight the guy, but I think his martial arts would be even better if he had more flexability.

[Edmund]

Originally posted by dodger87
i've searched out quite a lot of martial arts schools already but i dont want to and am not allowed to join any this year because it is my final year in high school and will determine whether i get into a uni or not. so all i can do is just train at home.

anyways since i was overstraining myself before i've made a new routine. i train my arms/legs/abs/flexibility in one day, and on the two next days i train my fitness like skipping and running and that sorta stuff. and the cycle is repeated. What do you guys think? any suggestions?

Quite a few suggestions have been mentioned already.
I would say take a more formal approach to your routine. Time your runs, make note of how many reps of each exercise you can do, measure your flexibility and so on.



PS. Also, Andrew is correct. None of this will make you a good fighter

[reneritchie]

I've looked into this and it seems like if you don't go to failure, you can do pushups every day.

[dodger87]

What do you mean by "if i don't go to failure" ?

[anerlich]

"Going to failure" means keep going until you can't do any more, e.g do pushups without a break until you can't do another pushup.

[Gangsterfist]

I just built a new exercise tool this week. This is a pretty common old exercise, but its great for wrist/forearm. I got a 1 foot long cylnider of wood, about 1 1/2 inch thick. Drilled a hole in the middle of it and ran a 3 foot piece of rope through the hole. At the end, I put a hook that can hold free weights. I then attach 4x 5lb free weights to then of it.

Then wind it up using your hands. Hold arms out, bent out from elbe just above waste level. Then just roll it up with your arms, and once its all the way up slowly roll it down. It kills your forearms after a while. It was like 3 dollars to make (already had the free weights).