sparring experiences

[red5angel]

ok, so lately I have been doing a lot of sparring and I thought I would start to post my experiences in each fight. I fortunately have a large crowd of practitioners to spar with so the types of arts are varied.

Last week I sparred with a guy who has ben studying Shaolin Logforms for about 5 years and has an extensive TKD background as well. Before the fight he admitted having problems remembering to use his hands due to his point sparring days but watching him warm up I realised I was sorely outclassed in the kicking.

We put on the pads and went at it. All in all I think the fight sort of turned out how you would imagine it. I had problems with his footwork, he was quick on his feet. I tried to use some jam kicks to stop some of his more extended and advertised kicks but he was pretty good about reversing those or switching feet before I could react.
He was still pretty good with his hands. I could slip in punches from time to time, he protected his head real well but I found his torso open a lot to body blows.
I'd say I could block about 70% of his kicks, and in that 30% that got through I think I would attribute alot to his timing, he had really good timing with his feet and got me a few times on sweeps and counter kicks.
He suckered me quite a few times with what appeared at first to be hook kicks, but when I went to react the hook kick he would switch feet and heel kick with the other leg, usually hitting me in the kidney area.

All in all I'd say he was a better fighter then I was. His kicks were much more powerful, well timed, and precise then mine. His hands were good enough that I didn't feel I had an unfair advantage over him. I certainly think if we were in a street fight his kicking was good enough to do me harm without risking being trapped or tossed.

Nest week I fight his buddy, who has about 4 years of national karate - a blackbelt in high school - and about 6 years of shaolin longfist.

[red5angel]

and as for keeping form, or proper kungfu technique...

He got me with a couple of good punches that I see him do in his shaolin forms. Alot of his kicking is still from TKD. He says there is some differences in how you use the hips but otherwise some of the kicks are similar so he falls back on his tkd alot for kicking. all in all I think he did a good job of sticking to what he was learning and still remained effective.

[Ray Pina]

Great! You're doing the right thing. Not bad for the first few experiences either ... actually, strating is the hardest part and you'll soon be addicted.

Here's something to think about. He's faster, so he's beating your reaction time .... How about not reacting? Do your thing.

Does he do the TKD shuffle? I look at that like a gunslinger who can't decide which gun (right or left hip) to draw. Charge in! Cover youself. If he kicks you, let it be only once! No way he should be able to put stopping power into a kick that has already been jammed by trying to snap kick it a second time. Run right over him.

Then again, this is my way and I'm sure you're training your own. Just keep testing. Ask for feedback from the guy you sparred, listen to seniors who witnessed it. Most of all listen to yourself. You'll get a feel of where you went wrong.

Congrats again. There is no losing at this stage. Just keep learning.

[Meat Shake]

You do wingchun as well, yes?
Sifu kirk has a bit of wingchun and longfist experience... I have pretty **** good hands mind you, and he'll even admit that I am faster than he is... But he positioning on strikes is rediculous... I cant block more than 5 punches without my guard being tied up and having my face or gut completely open. Dunno if thats just him, the wingchun, or the longfist... But it works whatever it is.

[Judge Pen]

I love fighting people of different styles! I hadn't had the opportuntiy to lately (well the TKD girl, but she was out of practice). The last good person I fought outside of my style used to kickbox and had some Muy Thai training from his military days. I felt like I could out footwork him and out punch him, but I got my bell rung by his roundhouse kick a few times in the process. He was out of practice too, but still in good enough shape to be effective.

[red5angel]

it sounds like I may have a fight tonight so I will have some info on it tomorrow.

I just figure instead of arguing about whta is or isn't effective, what styles work and which don't, I'm just going to give an objective view of my sparring experience.

[apoweyn]

I just figure instead of arguing about whta is or isn't effective, what styles work and which don't, I'm just going to give an objective view of my sparring experience.

That's the most mercifully sensible thing I've heard in a long time.

[Losttrak]

*jealous* I wish I had a forum of multiple artists... I did in college and that was the best of times. *sigh*

[red5angel]

losttrack, I don't know where you are exactly but I live around a big city and there are a ton of schools. I have visited a few that do sparring, met other people through martial arts gatherings and fight nights and so generally always have someone else to train with if need be.
I've found that while some people knock those schools that offer multiple arts, if they offer a good sparring clas you also run into quite a few people with good backgrounds who make good sparring partners.
In essence you just need to go out and meet these people.

[Losttrak]

=D Thats encouraging. Thanks for the tip.

[red5angel]

I'm not sure why more people don't. I wish more schools had open fight nights really I think it would go a long way towards dispelling some of the garbage in our little community. So far with my open experience I have come to respect anyone that is a good fighter or atleast is trying hard to become one. I have respect for any art that can hone a few fine warriors into fighting machines. I've learned taht the simple can be extremely effective in the right hands, but so can the complex. I've also learned that just because one studies a particular style doesn't mean the attributes, percieved or otherwise of that style does not necessarily reflect on the fighter.

[Oso]

sparred a 17 year old national kumite champion tonight. fun.
he made my shin bleed.

we pretty much traded when I stuck to karate kumite methodology...he probably had a slightly higher strike count...fast little bugger.

when they called '30 seconds' till the end of the round (the entire class was sparring round robin in a circle) I switched over to mantis and did a lot of hand trapping before attempting to strike and turned the odds around.

if anyone has ever sparred a hop gar stylee, let me know about your experience. TIA.

[red5angel]

I psarred two guys last night. The first has been studying Shaolin Longfist for about 5 years now, or there abouts. Had some karate in his background as well.
The first thing I have to say is he was much faster then I overall. - Frankly it seems that I keep running into people who seem a hell of a lot faster then I am lately!
Anyway, he was a real fast kicker, got me a few times with kick combinations. I have started adjusting a little to the way these guys spar - they sort of roughly follow a point sparring, methodology- and so was able to keep up better last night then the last few times I sparred them.
This guy used his hands a lot more, hit me a few times with back fists and rolling backfists. He sort of took it easy on me so I could practice my kicking a little more. My footwork is getting a little better, or atleast I was "on" last night and so felt like it was. I have found I do have a habit of turning into a kick to get a better blocking angle, only to be tagged by a second kick from behind or in the kidney area.
Anyway, these shaolin guys are respectable fighters. I'm confident they could handle themselves on the street, even using somewhat risky moves, like kicking combinations, etc..
I can't recall any strong details that stuck out except that my footwork seems to be getting better and I kept getting hit with lightning kicks. He had good control over himself and so controlled the fight. I did notice he does like to sort of hang back and wait for me to commit. I started compensating for that some by throwing feints.

I also fought a guy who only has about 6 months experience or so, again a much faster kicker then I was. He tagged me witha pretty solid shot to the head at one point as well since I opened myself up. He wasn't shy but tended to not fire combination soff and so I got to wait until he threw a kick or punch and then I would open up on him. He's got some serious potential.

I'll be sparring these shaolin guys pretty regularly for a while. I'm hoping to get to spar with a wingchun guy here next week, details to follow....

[Ray Pina]

Here's something to think about:

What is the difference in speed between the gold medalist and silver medalist? Maybe 0.0-something seconds.

I would look at your hand position. Are your hands too busy? Swiping all over the place to block and then go to hit? You might be asking one guy to do too many jobs.

The other guy might be splitting this duty. It might seem like he's faster, but maybe his hands JUST HAPPEN to be closer to the target.

OR maybe he is a lot faster than you.

I don't like to think in those terms. Otherwise, we can just measure our reach, step on a scale and run the 40. No need to fight.

[red5angel]

well, my hands are good, I tend to block more often then not, it's my feet that are slow at the moment. Having done wingchun for so long my kicks aren't up to snuff yet.

[Shaolinlueb]

my sparring is mediocer(sp?) at best. I can do forms and sparring drills all day, but when it comes to sparring, I dont know. I dont like fighting really. I can defend myself and I am decent but its not my strong point, I'm not a naturual fighter like some people.

[Ray Pina]

Red, I know exactly what you mean. And I don't trust the Wing Chun stop kick, that inverted leg position. It's not powerful. You don't do that when you crush a pint milk carton, why would you do it to stop a big incoming force.

As for your hands. Not saying if they are good or bad. You would know. And sonds like your confidant. And this experince you're having is great.

If he's beating you off the punch or hitting you more try taking that opportunity away from him. When he attacks jam him. Almost try a double-tan sau right in front of your face and charging in on him. At the least you'll jam him up and then from their it's chi sau. It he tries to go around this shield of yours, bombs away ... you have the line. Let your elbow do the blocking. THIS WILL WORK.

As for kicking. Don't bother. When you're all up in his grill with a $hit-load of momentum there will be no room to kick. Let your natural stepping lead to knees in his thights. If he breaks his shape, let the leg get around and send him down.

I'm sure you heard it a thousand times: a kick is a step that he got in the way of. A step is a kick he retreated on.

[Judge Pen]

I sparred my teacher this morning. Actually I spar him every Wednesday morning. He is faster, stronger, more flexible and he has better timing. My hands are slightly better, but he more than makes up for it with his other qualities. The trouble is that we spar eachother ALL THE TIME. I know his tendencies and he knows mine. He has forced me to adapt and change much of my sparring and because of that I've gotten to be a better kicker then before, but its getting to the point that we have both reached a plateau and need to bring some fresh blood in.

[red5angel]

efist - good advice mostly. I kick because I want to learn to kick and I don't mind taking the hits if I am larning something. I know they are faster then me and trying to engage them that way is foolish but they tend to let me play around a bit with it, give me some room to move so I can get used to it and adjust.
The wingchun stop kick is ok, but it's a timing issue mor ethen anything else. I've used it successfully a few times but I have come to find that a good kicker will use that to spin around and back kick as well and it works surprisingly well!

Judge Penn, like I said early you often have to go out seeking it. what I don't understand is why there isn't more open sparring type events in larger cities. There are a ton of schools here in the small towns of minneapolis and St. Paul and yet very little inter school mixing ever happens.

[Ray Pina]

You have the perfect attitude to progress and progress fast. I believe one free match = 4 months of classes. You learn quick this way.

As for the stop kick, try this test:

Hold that position, with the knee and toe facing out on someone's thigh (where you might be aiming). Have him pick up his knee as if he was going to front kick. You push down ... see what happens? You'll loose your root and come up.

That is a weak shape. You wouldn't leg press heavy weights that way. You can achieve the same effect better if you tweek that shape. One of your strongest weapons -- your knee -- is not in the game. Your hip is also in a week position.

Maybe by a pint milk carton. Drink it then fold it up and stomp on it.... see how you do that. Then ask what's the difference.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
There are a ton of schools here in the small towns of minneapolis and St. Paul and yet very little inter school mixing ever happens. Insurance may be a concern. We don't really like to have people from outside the school come in to spar unless they are willing to sign a waiver, and even then you have to be cautious. One lawsuit can shut the doors permenantly.

[red5angel]

sadly masterkiller that is the truth....

[Ray Pina]

A waiver will not protect you either. Core schools exist at their own risk. It's important for a teacher to know the students ability before allowing them to bang around, know they can at least protect their head a bit.

I missed it while in Vegas, but supposedly a guy who was a little off his rocker came to challenge the school. My teacher was just trying to show him some stuff and the guy "turned on" out of no where.

I heard the highlight clip from training partners, and over heard my teacher saying something about feeling bad about having to hit the guy because his head wasn't right. But from what I got it sounded like it quickly developed from demonstrating what we do to using what we do to stop an attack.

Sucks I'm never around for these things. I've only seen one or two. And few come right out and say what they're up to. Always seems like they accelerate after being frustrated. Occupational hazard I guess.

[joedoe]

Excellent thread. Good to hear about your experiences red5.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
A waiver will not protect you either. Core schools exist at their own risk. It's important for a teacher to know the students ability before allowing them to bang around, know they can at least protect their head a bit.

Ultimately a waiver may get the case dismissed, but nothing can prevent a frivilous lawsuit and the legal fees incurred to defend a frivilous lawsuit can still shut down most schools.

Lawyers s uck! :D

[red5angel]

I guess if we are going to get more schools to open up to sparring with outsiders we are going to have to agree that if an outsider is wounded in your school you must kill him and dump his nody somewhere so you incur no lawsuits.

[Merryprankster]

A waiver doesn't stop a **** thing because all a person has to do is claim that what happened to them was above and beyond what they expected or that what happened was due to negligence on the part of the school. On the other hand, Judge Penn is a lawyer and knows more than me.

As for me, personally, I've never sparred.


I believe one free match = 4 months of classes.

True up to a point. Then, drilling=4 months of classes....

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
A waiver doesn't stop a **** thing because all a person has to do is claim that what happened to them was above and beyond what they expected or that what happened was due to negligence on the part of the school. On the other hand, Judge Penn is a lawyer and knows more than me.


I don't know about that (the "knowing more" part). A waiver can protect you from negligence for injuries that that are reasonably foreseeable. They can't waive gross negligence, recklessness, or willful, deliberate, or intentional acts. Anyone can claim anything, but they still have the burden of proving that the injury was not one to have been reasonably anticipated. In Martial arts one can be expected to be hit, swept, thrown, etc. and the injuries that could arise from these actions are foreseeable; however, if an instructor intentionally breaks someone's arm during class, then the waiver wouldn't apply. If the instructor allows an "out-of-control" student to fight full contact with another student, and injury occurs, then that could be seen as recklessness and a waiver wouldn't apply. It is a very fact specific test. Plus, arguing about everything is how people like me pay the bills.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Judge Penn is a lawyer and knows more than me. Did hell just freeze over or something?

[Merryprankster]

Did hell just freeze over or something?

No. Hell freezes over when you stop trying to use only half my argument against me and stop ignoring the caveats and context I use them in to clarify what I mean. Then we can all go ice skating amongst the crystal flames or something.

Judge Pen,

I understand. I think I'm more getting at the fact that rather than truly fight the claim, most insurance companies will just settle out of court and charge the school higher rates. Due to state laws requiring insurance, that puts many places out of business.

[stimulant]

about 10 or 11 years ago I spared with a brithish Muay Thai Champion....

**** this guy was shape....fortunatly for me I have a relatively good defence and was good back then (my kick-boxing era) at covering up.

After about 1 min of him keeping my guard up with amazingly quick jabs...he went for spin kick to my head....unfortunatly for ihm I saw it and front stamped kicked him in the @rse and floored him.....

he got up smiled, said 'good shot', and then continued to batter me with fist, knee, shin, and foot for the next 2 mins....all in all I got him with about 3 clean connecttions....he got me with about 15!!! but he didnt manage to knock me down....!

oh the good old days....so glad I left them!

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Merryprankster


Judge Pen,

I understand. I think I'm more getting at the fact that rather than truly fight the claim, most insurance companies will just settle out of court and charge the school higher rates. Due to state laws requiring insurance, that puts many places out of business.

You are right, but all too often insurance companies feel that they can save money by settling instead of paying a lawyer to fight, so whether the rates go up because of the settlement or the lawyers' bills doesn't matter. The rates will go up either way. The only ones that win are the lawyers. Having said that, the settlement will be less if there's a wiaver then if a school didn't have one, so they still serve a purpose.