The Jing Identity of WCK from SLT

[Phenix]

Since I have post some pictures on center line, Water Shape hand, and the Short range elbow of White Crane Weng Chun. Which have similarity with WCK.

Let's move into Force issuing which was developed from SLT, that way we go one step further into the search of root of WCK.

Jim, you want to share with us about the Jing stuffs you investigate?

BTW, look into details on the Southern Tong Long ect.. head / body position. See if there are similar to WCK's SLT or they are different.
Different head and body means different Jing.



Let's get technical into the subject.

[Phenix]

First of all, I think that there are obvious similarities from white crane, venomus snake, mantis, in wing chun.---------

Not True, if you check out their different of the body structure,some of these styles have head learn forward, some have the upper body concave in.

Some doesnt follow the Center line characteristics.

It is not that difficult to see the different, if the spine and head connection is different, the power issuing must be different. thus, even the using the same hand shapes. it is a different art.

Those who does understand jing identity can trace Jing DNA easily. Based on spine/ head connection or the use of the 3 yings/3yang medirians models as observation vectors. Simple as that.





A lot of the circling motions in wing chun look similar to crane techniques, along with some elbow techniques. A lot of finger strikes and palm chops look similar to snake boxing. Kicks and some foot work look similar to southern mantis style. ---------


It is not about a single movemen, it is every style has a specific rules on how to handle body structure, jing, and application preference based on
the specialily of body structure and jing identity.



Just by look at a chi sau or SLT picture one can "see" if other art is mix in it or not. For example, if one doesnt address certain aspect of structure on how to work with the "wholeness" of power , by default, generally, one will move to a wider stance to do SLT . because one feel one got power by exanding one's based one thought that is the way, thus, lots of time, shao lin or hung gar stances were used. what the treat of of going this path is wck no longer be compact. but loosen up the gap between legs for grapper to take advantage of. thus people who practice slt in wide stance, due to the habit, generally, have a tendency of being vonuable to the grapper take down.

Similar to any subject, when one doesnt understand it. it is one "chunk"seeing from the surface. when one understand it. one sees different components functioning lively under the surface. there the identity show up naturely. Shao lin or white crane it speak for itself.

comparing "chung", movie action can be looks real.



just some thought


----------------------

Seeing flower via mirror is a simple matter.
How can one scop up moon from the river?

[foolinthedeck]

phenix,

if you drink the water from the river,
moon hand and water all is drunk.
the flower in the mirror is likewise,
flower mirror and reflection.

forgive my lack of cantonese, is the jing you refer to the same jing which is the prenatal essence which determines basic qi and is expended by elimination?

also, although offtopic perhaps, i wonder if you could expand apon your experience of reiki into SLT, have you studied reiki and how can it be beneficial? i personally find that i am very sensitive in both massage and chi sau, but unsure which developed which or if both inde/interdependant. would you suggest the training of healing arts to be used through the vehicle of wing chun as opposed to those which are intended to do harm? i like the idea of using healing hands in chi sao which intend to strike but without harming.

"Similar to any subject, when one doesnt understand it. it is one "chunk"seeing from the surface. when one understand it. one sees different components functioning lively under the surface. there the identity show up naturely. Shao lin or white crane it speak for itself"

different people find different parts of the elephant.
lets all take off our blindfolds?

[Phenix]

Originally posted by foolinthedeck

also, although offtopic perhaps, i wonder if you could expand apon your experience of reiki into SLT, have you studied reiki and how can it be beneficial? i personally find that i am very sensitive in both massage and chi sau, but unsure which developed which or if both inde/interdependant. would you suggest the training of healing arts to be used through the vehicle of wing chun as opposed to those which are intended to do harm? i like the idea of using healing hands in chi sao which intend to strike but without harming.


different people find different parts of the elephant.
lets all take off our blindfolds?


Jing is power for here.

I am not an Reiki expert, but I saw and try to study it.
Reiki teaches one to be center / grounded and live in now before healing.
Reiki teaches one to live in center and now as the teaching from Mikao Usui said

"just for today, do not worry
just for today, do not anger
honor your parent, teacher and elder
Earn your living honestly
show gratitute to everything "



The simple teaching of Mikao Usui pratically consist of important element in life,

being do not worry is being balance and center with intelecture part of our life, being do not angry is being balance and center with emotion part of our life. being show gratitute to everything is being balance and center with behavioral part of or life, being Earn your living honestly is being balance and center in spritual part of our life.


SLT in my understanding is teaching the same thing. center while doing the set, and living daily with center. Otherwise, one will not get the benifit of practising SLT set and a center/balance daily living.

Now, we all know, to access the phisical/ mental / breathing power, one needs to be in center /balacne and live in now---Zhong. that is the core.


Reiki using/ channeling energy to balance to heal.
emei 12 zhuang which there is signature show as the a great part engine of SLT, is a training of energy channelling,
the 36 heavenly fingers technics hidden in the 12 zhuang is about manupulation of energy. Both IMO, based on esoteric buddhism. where emei 12 zhuang based on Amitaba Buddha-- the infinite light and Reiki's Dai kyo myo or the great brightness root from Vairocana Buddha.



lets all take off our blindfolds?----

Yes. then we can see the infinite light or the great brightness and living a center/balance life in all situation. and can acces to the energyvwe want.


I plan to go to each layer----, Jing, mind, structure.... to prove where SLT is from and the ancestors didnt lie to us.

--- honor your parent, teacher and elder
Earn your living honestly
show gratitute to everything --- right?


Just some thought

[Phenix]

Usui the founder of Reiki was born in high rank samurai family, in "the last samurai "era. he began aiki jutsu at age of 12 and tien dai ,esoteric budddhism later and familia with philosophy of east and western . The link between martial art and spirituality had always been a quest for samurai. it was said that three other great martial artists ----Ginchin, kano, and Osensei. ( karate, judo, aikio.) known Usui and each others.

Shugyo, the training that Mikao Usui is said to have completed on kurama mountain is both martial art and escoteric Buddhist term.
Thus, there is no surprise to see similality between energy channeling methods between the emei 12 zhuang which influence SLT or Reiki. those all come from esoteric buddhism.

Be it Ng Mui's inspration after seeing crane fight , Miu Soon fusing white crane with emei 12 zhuang inspration , Osensei's , or Mikao spiritual experience....ect
In traditional of china and japan, martial art founder of a style must first have received a divine understanding through a spiritual experience. A style is then begun of this simple divine understaning. it is from this seed that the founder of a style creates a method......


We can learn alots from history because there are similarity in art creation and evolution.

Gichin Funakoshi wrote that, times change, the world changes, and obviously the martial art must change." Mikao Usui's own reiki teachings appeared to have gone through many changes during his life time and were set to continous to change eventhought that "divine understanding through spiritual experience" never change.


Via decades of looking into different martial arts, Buddhism practice (chan, esoteric,....), and the founder of different martial arts.
I come to a conclusion that any buddhist related martial art style without that "divine understanding through spiritual experience" will not be in depth. And, "divine understanding through spiritual experience" for the buddhist source from compassionate non duality not from hatret or anti-anyone.

Thus, I never believe in the Shao Lin Wing Chun Connection about create a best art to kill Qing because that doesnt accord to Non dual principle. I also dont belive in grouping a group of monks to create best martial art in some shao lin temple because as Gichin said times change, the world changes, and obviously the martial art must change. That "Best " only apply to that era, not today, even if there is such an act which I doubt. I dont belive in Buddhist monk, even if Yat Chan exist which there is no evident proven that he exist yet, will use the term Yuen Shan because an Enlightent chan Buddhist monk will speak direct into the core of the "divine understanding through spiritual experience" as it said, directly pointing to the "heart". the is no reason any enlightent Chan monk will start teaching with Daoist concept where he knows that is not the path to go.


Here, I present what I have seen from Different founders, arts and histories to show there is no exception if it is buddhist art and if it is practice by human, there is certain pattern and principle will be followed, be it in China or Japan, yesterday or tomorrow. But we only can live in NOW.

without the grasp of that "divine understanding through a spiritual experience" or its image of the founder, but make equavalent on seperate components to equivalent two arts doesnt present the art.

In Chan, it is all about The "divine understanding through a spiritual experience" It is not about logic or fomulars. for logics and fomulars are dealing with method and method has to change with time.

I am not anti anyone. I present a different view on how things look. I understood this subject is not easy to be understood. Thus, i brought it up. if for next decade WCK doesnt have "Gichin, Kano, Osense type of calible (sp?) WCK might not survive another 30 years or two generations and by that time SLT wil be come just a ritual. imho.

Just some thoughts. Can i be wrong? sure. i am just human.

-------------------------------

"just for today, do not worry
just for today, do not anger
honor your parent, teacher and elder
Earn your living honestly
show gratitute to everything "

[yuanfen]

Hendrik- in your usage of terms----
when you use the term "esoteric"- do you mean the instrumental
(breath, meridians, chakras, vectors, jings etc or other) exploration and understanding of structure and energy paths as opposed to the primacy of or primal dhyan/chan and just zazen?

Brief reference to your usage of the term "esoteric" might help readers.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Hendrik- in your usage of terms----
when you use the term "esoteric"- do you mean the instrumental
(breath, meridians, chakras, vectors, jings etc or other) exploration and understanding of structure and energy paths as opposed to the primacy of or primal dhyan/chan and just zazen?

Brief reference to your usage of the term "esoteric" might help readers.

Joy,

Thanks . great input!

Yes, esoteric means breathing.... as you post.
All about energy!



For me, Chan is about the Wholesome "view", non duality, or reality . and energy are the reality.

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Hendrik,


Jim, you want to share with us about the Jing stuffs you investigate?

No way! hehehe Just kidding!


There are a few core ways arts issue and recieve force. The way WC follows is more in tune with the other soft internal arts which begin training from Stillness. This not only reverses the training and starts to cultivate you from the inside out it also allows you to settle the mind and focus on every inch of your internal connection. This is where the mental awareness takes over and the little things develop. WC's body posture is upright and relaxed. The body has a pulling up/stretching feeling from the internal alignment. This also creates space in the joing/body etc. so that the body becomes elastic and promotes optimum circulation. The next stage is "Sinking"! Different from arts that bolt to the ground our root comes from the relaxation and intent. When the muscles and skin feel like they are hanging off the bones and you sink the breath is when Sung starts to take over and the floating vanishes. Its not about bolting to the ground but connecting your structure to the ground. If someone presses our structure then the structure can connect more or move. The body basically has three springs as described by Wang Xiang Zhai. Coordinating the three springs with the Rise/Sink/Open/Close is the basis of power. Being an art that makes use of Torque we can see the important role the Waist plays in this. As with almost all soft internal arts (including White Crane) the basis for Jing is located in the waist and manifested in the Chest/Spine. I look at it like this. The waist is the pull cord similar to a lawn mower and it transfers the power to thru the spine/torso out to the limbs. So we can say the source of ones strength is located in the lower back. One of the noticeable characteristics of WC is its ultra compact body/movements. If the body positioning gets larger then the ammount of distance the force travel with also get larger so the vibrating force we can produce will no longer be there. The small frane can send short shock force out and thru our arts design we shrink as we advance. This means we can produce a lot more with less range.

I am out of time! Work work work!


Talk more later!


Gotta walk,

[kj]

Good post, Jim.
- kj

[Phenix]

Kj,

Try Reiki .

[kj]

Originally posted by Phenix
Kj,

Try Reiki .

It's on my TTD list.
- kj

[foolinthedeck]

thanks alot hendrik,
reiki - on my ttd list too, but something i didnt understand the root of or possible connections to things i already do, ie how the trunk connetcs to the face...

now - i'm going to bed