Frontal thrust kick

[KingMonkey]

Guys,

I hope no one will mind me posting a question about WC on the 'Politics, Boasting, Squabbling and Ancient History Forum'.

The frontal thrust kick.
I have heard some people say that the higher you raise your leg and therefore the more acute the angle between the upper and lower leg the more power you can generate.
My own practice suggests this isnt true and that about 90 degrees is the angle at which I can preserve quite a lot of the forward momentum and speed my whole leg has achieved after being moved off the floor and still add a significant amount of snap to the kick on straightening.

Does anybody have any strong opinions, tips or suggestions about this?
Any good kicking exercises (apart from the obvious) would also be appreciated.

[old jong]

Hi!
My way of seeing this kick is very simple. I raise my foot like if I'm just walking into the guy and I add a front hip trust movement into the mix. It makes a good recipie...;)

[Gangsterfist]

After the leg reaches a certain extension from the body it is working mostly off momentum and not force. When the limb is at the apex of its extension it is at its weakest point. Also over extending your limb would probably be considered over commitment. However, we can also say that when attacking with long range attacks we must extend our bodies further to land the strike. Thats why wing chun has the principle of constantly sticking and applying pressure to your opponet you can issue power attacks at a shorter distance. Ding girk (nailing kick) is what its called I think.

Now depending on where you are striking your opponet at depends on how your foot should hit them. Ergonomics come into play. If you are kicking the groin pull your foot towards your leg when you strike nailing it very hard in a certain point. When kicking the upper leg and knee area use the middle of the bottom of your foot, it has more surface coverage. This may not be in any wing chun curriculum, but this is how we train. It makes sense if you think about it. Same thing can be applied to punches, palm strikes, finger jabs, etc etc.

[Ernie]

king monkey
[I hope no one will mind me posting a question about WC on the 'Politics, Boasting, Squabbling and Ancient History Forum'.]

ha ha beautiful

as for the kick just to add in 2 cents , i was taught the power comes from the rotational arch , meaning starting toe in on thew ground and twisting heal in '' focal point '' at the end of the action

when ever you add a sight twist to a motion it tends to have more power .

now tuning back to wing chun history , fables , and ego channel

[Gangsterfist]

Would that be considered a cork screw kind of jing Ernie?

[Ernie]

well it definitly has a focased power release at the end but i'm not big on all the chinese terms so the '' jing '' thing may or may not be correct .

simple drill as i was shown by david peterson way back when
sit in a right or left stance what ever you prefer and point your toe forward in the direction you would be going if you took a step forward .
now while sitting in you stance kick a solid object , a tree a wall some one you hate .

then do the same thin but this time turn your toe slightly inwards first and if all things work out you should have a bit more pop to your kick

to be honest since i have a back ground in savate , thai and filipino kicking arts i can gereate power with any part of the foot from what ever posture , so my kicks have a mind of there own , but from a static wing chun posture this was more powerful when i trained it
hope it helps if not just toss it aside :D

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by Ernie
...now while sitting in you stance kick a solid object , a tree a wall some one you hate...


LOL, and you are a sifu now??? Do you advocate this kind of behavior to your students? Just kidding, I found it funny. Except I would change it to something I hate not someone. Like when my car breaks down and costs me over 1k to fix it, I want to beat the crap outta it.

Could you explain some ideas behind thai and savate kicks? I want to say I saw a Savate practioner fight once. Some european guy reminded me of TKD. What do they say that WC does not?

I have taken some okinawan karate that had some spinning back kicks and high side kicks and round houses in it, but never a kick boxing type style.

[Ernie]

dude i will never be a sifu i'm just to ghetto :)
but i plan on being a good coach

savate the old style not the stuff they call box francie or how ever you spell it ,
is a very interesting art . no chambering the kicks come from the hip . the knee is the sight and the toe is the point of contact .
there kicking is like a hammer that has a deep penetrating force
the kicking is bery surgical and is target specfic , groin , liver , kidneys , solar plex , throat , eye stuff like that , it's all done i motion but very deceptive and non telegraphic
it is defeinly a shoe art though , the shoe is considered a weapon , if your bare foot forget it , i have broken my toe a few times learning the hard way
it requies hip flexability and a lot of time stretching , i have lost a lot of it since i have been doing wing chun , but i can still pull it off in a pinch .

good stuff
i used to think it was weak and kind of girly [ ballet stretches ] but then i mixed it up with a few guys and got dropped by those girly kicks and since then i have even dropped a few thai buddies with a toe kick , rubber leg kicks as the coined

savate and thai are probably the to most powerful kicking arts i have seen and felt but they are on complete ends of the spectrum on the type of power .

finding a good savate guy is hard , not popular here in the states and old style street savate is very http://www.duby-oi.com/duby/defaulten.htmare
hr also has a background in wing chun
look into Daniel Duby he is awsome

[Keng Geng]

When we think about measurements with respect to hands (arms), we focus much on elbows. When you're talking about the legs, well.... I'm sure you can figure out the rest.

[Gangsterfist]

Interesting post. I remember my old sensei telling me to always front kick with the ball of your foot. When I started taking WC and Taiji I was taught different, and we have learned some toe kicks. But to practice toe kicking someone in the eye sounds like pretty high level stuff. It would hurt real bad though.

[Ernie]

the groin solar plex and kidney are more realistic street targets , duby actualy trains and teaches with cowboy boots metal tipped [ ouch ] but the thread is heading in the wrong direction back to wing chun:)

[John D]

The WC front thrust kick will not win you any trophies for the best looking kick but it is very... very useful.

When receiving and attack, use the front thrust kick against your opponent's pelvic girdle/thigh area. You can jam your opponent's momentum and give yourself a quick instant to recover or counterattack. You should not need to kick any higher than your opponent's hip level.

The attacker may have faster hands and feet but his pelvis is much slower moving and an easier target. Depending on your position, use your front thrust kick or slant thrust kick to disrupt the incoming attack before engaging the other limbs/structures of the attacker.

"The front thrust kick can defeat all incoming kicks if it is used as a jam toward your opponent's pelvic/thigh area. However, if the front thrust kick is used too early all kicks can defeat the front thrust kick." - the late Wong Chock 1980

It is said that the great Chan Wah Shun often received his challengers with the front foot in the "tiu ma" position so that he could employ the front thrust kick against incoming attacks.

On a side note - I start teaching my students a (two person) drill that utilizes hip/pelvic/thigh jamming with the front thrust kick during the first month of practice. It is also my belief that while you should kick quickly (with speed), you should also use less than 80% of your leg power behind the thrust kick. Keep 20-30% of your power in reserve so that you can recover your foot, or shift into a new position to apply a stomp kick to the knee or foot (chain/linking kicks).

Best Regards,
John Di Virgilio

[Keng Geng]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
But to practice toe kicking someone in the eye sounds like pretty high level stuff. It would hurt real bad though. Yes, you would first need to develop a really good lap.

[Chronos]

Originally posted by KingMonkey
Guys,

Sexist. :D


I hope no one will mind me posting a question about WC on the 'Politics, Boasting, Squabbling and Ancient History Forum'.

No problem. We can take a small break from learning the depths of human depravity as long as it doesn't distract from the bigger picture. :p


The frontal thrust kick.
I have heard some people say that the higher you raise your leg and therefore the more acute the angle between the upper and lower leg the more power you can generate.

The Wing Chun kick comes directly from the ground without chambering. Likely against a skilled opponent you won't get the foot very far off the ground without triggering his sensitivity unless you're too far away from him to be doing actual Wing Chun. Actual Wing Chun in sticking hands distance precludes most kicks.


My own practice suggests this isnt true and that about 90 degrees is the angle at which I can preserve quite a lot of the forward momentum and speed my whole leg has achieved after being moved off the floor and still add a significant amount of snap to the kick on straightening.

Does anybody have any strong opinions, tips or suggestions about this?

Yes. It sounds like you're doing karate. You should focus on the pre-frontal thrust kick which is a mental exercise. :)


Any good kicking exercises (apart from the obvious) would also be appreciated.
Yes, again. And this one is serious. Stand on one leg and slowly extend your thrust kick and hold it extended starting from one minute and then extending the time as your conditioning improves. Both legs benefit from this at the same time but in different ways. Of course, alternate each leg. In fighting application, never kick above the waist. In training, always try to for the flexibility if nothing else.

Cheers,

[KingMonkey]

All,

Thanks for your comments.


Ernie and GF

Thanks for the tips. Will try the kind of corkscrew motion suggested.

John D.

It was this sort of application I was thinking of really. Can you elaborate more on the kicking drill.

Chronos


It sounds like you're doing karate.
Cheeky b*stard ! :D
I hope the asexual salutation I used this time was more to your liking. ;)

Your assumption seems to be that I am always going to be close in doing WC, what about while the distance is being closed and I want to attack and off balance the opponent as soon as he is in range of one of my weapons ? Maybe I have assumed too much feel free to elaborate and or correct.


Another question for all of you. Old Jong mentioned thrusting his hips forward when delivering a kick.
Anybody have any comments on this, we are not taught this at all, rather that our hips should always be forward.

[kj]

Originally posted by KingMonkey
Another question for all of you. Old Jong mentioned thrusting his hips forward when delivering a kick.
Anybody have any comments on this, we are not taught this at all, rather that our hips should always be forward.

FWIW, we are also taught not to thrust the hips or pelvis. Different schools, interpretations, and strategies abound.

Regards,
- kj

[Gangsterfist]

I think maybe you mean put your hip into the kick? That is what we are taught. Hips act as transmitters for energy release. Try practicing non wing chun kicks to build this up. Stepping side kick, long range front kicks, round houses, etc. These kicks involve more movement and therefore it easier to get a feel for it. Once you are good at these you can compact the movement down to a WC type kick. Just like form work, always train the maximum.

If you are looking for techniques to practice, one of the most effective is the tan girk. It is a counter kick against a front kick. You simply just step in at an angle from your opponet and kick right under their kick. You can also practice chi girk (or sticky feet). That will also help your foot work/kicks. Doing a lop da girk (lop incoming attack, punch with other hand, and kick to groin, thigh, knee) is a good drill to practice. When you lop someones punch and attack them they are usually too confused or preoccupied with the attack on their upper body to notice the kick.

As for striking at a distance wing chun does not really advocate it that much. To strike someone (no matter which weapon you use) you have to extend yourself towards them. If you are at a longer range you must extend yourself further. Most WC practioners I know would consider that to be over committing to the attack, and giving your opponet too much energy to work off of. The wc kick is designed to be non-telegraphic kick to areas of the body that will hurt someone real bad. Also areas where effeciency is maximized. Any kick that goes higher than the waste is not the shortest distance, and when a kick goes past a certain point of motion it is working off momentum and not the inital force behind it. As someone stated earlier in this thread they are not pretty. You may have heard the phrase, "No shadow kick," or seen it in kung fu movies. Wing chun has that prinicple in its kicks. It simply means the kick leaves no shadow, or is non-telegraphed.


Hope this gives you something to work with.

GFist

[old jong]

Originally posted by KingMonkey
Old Jong mentioned thrusting his hips forward when delivering a kick.
Anybody have any comments on this, we are not taught this at all, rather that our hips should always be forward.

Yes,the hips are already forward but,as you kick,you should follow trough with some body unity so is not "a leg kick" only. I will put energy to the floor by pressing down with the supporting leg and go in the direction of the kick with the motion.So,it is not the hips only!...But the whole body, centered at the hips.(I need to be more clear sometimes! ;) )
I'm sure most of you are doing this but you are using different words to describe it.
N'oubliez pas que l'anglais n'est pas ma langue maternelle!...;)

[Chronos]

Originally posted by KingMonkey

Chronos

Cheeky b*stard ! :D
I hope the asexual salutation I used this time was more to your liking. ;) Thanks for the consideration. :cool:


Your assumption seems to be that I am always going to be close in doing WC, what about while the distance is being closed and I want to attack and off balance the opponent as soon as he is in range of one of my weapons ? Maybe I have assumed too much feel free to elaborate and or correct.
Yes, I assume that once engaged in combat, you must stay close to your opponent. You are correct that a kick, either yours or his, can be a way to close the gap. I just wouldn't want to compromise my structure and delay in any way my getting to Wing Chun range.

What I was alluding to was that in Wing Chun, we should try to be close, in our distance, where we can use sticking hands. We are required to close quickly to get inside the opponent's range. Why be outside trading shots, kicks or hands, when you will have the advantage up close and personal.


Another question for all of you. Old Jong mentioned thrusting his hips forward when delivering a kick.
Anybody have any comments on this, we are not taught this at all, rather that our hips should always be forward.
My Wing Chun teaches as yours does, if I'm reading you right, that the hips should be part of the body's structure and therefore not thrusting forward, but rather transmitting power from the ground up the connected chain into the kick.

Cheers,

[S.Teebas]

Old jong says:

the whole body, centered at the hips

Why centered at the hips?

[Phenix]

Hips act as transmitters for energy release. Try practicing non wing chun kicks to build this up. Stepping side kick, long range front kicks, round houses, etc. These kicks involve more movement and therefore it easier to get a feel for it.
Once you are good at these you can compact the movement down to a WC type kick. -------

Sorry, I dis-agree. this is an extend or "push" not a "send" type of practice. it wont become wip llike. thus it will not become wck kick. because the principle of wck is send not strecth. (doesnt mean the leg didnt strech out)

BTW, the accerelation of this type of kick is not fast and it is rely on localized power as prime. it will not have a swing similar to those of muay thai or kyokushi. but kind of TKD.

Send or strech differentiate WCK with other Nam Kuen.
Shao lin mostly strech -bump.

Just some thought

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by Phenix
Hips act as transmitters for energy release. Try practicing non wing chun kicks to build this up. Stepping side kick, long range front kicks, round houses, etc. These kicks involve more movement and therefore it easier to get a feel for it.
Once you are good at these you can compact the movement down to a WC type kick. -------

Sorry, I dis-agree. this is an extend or "push" not a "send" type of practice. it wont become wip llike. thus it will not become wck kick. because the principle of wck is send not strecth. (doesnt mean the leg didnt strech out)

BTW, the accerelation of this type of kick is not fast and it is rely on localized power as prime. it will not have a swing similar to those of muay thai or kyokushi. but kind of TKD.

Send or strech differentiate WCK with other Nam Kuen.
Shao lin mostly strech -bump.

Just some thought
I just agreed with you on this same principle on another thread. Kicks from other arts don't lend themselves to Wing Chun structure. It's send, not stretch, or not reaching.

Power from the horse; power from the ground = Wing Chun. Power from speed, distance, and reaching = Karate

Wing Chun good. Karate bad (but still good as an external style.) :) If one is going to do external style Wing Chun, one may as well stick with TKD or karate.

Send is the word of the day for today. :D