bruising and dit da jow

[travelsbyknight]

I used dit da jow before I did steel ring conditioning...and then I applied more dit da jow after I was done. I rubbed really hard for five minutes each time I applied the jow.


I still got a huge bruise on my arm though. Isn't jow supposed to keep that from happening? Maybe I was working too hard and broke too many blood vessels. I guess not even jow can prevent injuries 100%.

[Ging Mo Fighter]

its not magical, even the best western medication we have doesn't work even half the time (antibiotics, antacid etc etc)

i think its just meant to be a very subtle effect, the human body is very complicated and you cant always work miracles, even with the best medicines we have :cool:

[Ou Ji]

Jow is used to promote healing and toughen the body, not prevent injury. Rapidly healing the bruises and other damage means you can train again much sooner. It also heals much stronger when Jow is used. The process of busting up then rebuilding is what makes your body tougher. This can only happen over time with regular training. If you're bruised then continue with the Jow until it clears up. Good Jow will clear it up really fast.

[David]

The visible bruise is the bad blood coming away from the bones. You want that to happen :).

Rgds,
David

[travelsbyknight]

I don't agree with your post, Ou Ji. This isn't karate where we hit stuff to build up scar tissue. The goal is to condition the hands and arms but not to change their outside appearance. The hands are supposed to remain soft but when you strike, they feel like steel. All these little bruises/injuries you acquire add up in the long run.

When conditioning the body, injury should be kept very very very minimal. That includes bruising. NO bruising is better than slight bruising.

[TenTigers]

You might not be using the jow correctly. It is not simply massaged into the bruise, There is an entire process, and specific technique. The area must be saturated with the jow-keep it wet. The injury is massaged in a circular motion, with pressure to break up the 'dead' blood and to stimulate circulation. The area is pressed, rubbed, and slapped to bring new blood to the region, ending with light massage to clear away dead blood. This cannot be learned from a post, but should be taught hands on. Wing Lam's book is a good source, however.

[travelsbyknight]

I was told to do something slightly differently than what you said. You said to massage the bruise in a circular motion where as I was told to massage away from my heart.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by travelsbyknight
I don't agree with your post, Ou Ji. This isn't karate where we hit stuff to build up scar tissue. The goal is to condition the hands and arms but not to change their outside appearance. The hands are supposed to remain soft but when you strike, they feel like steel. All these little bruises/injuries you acquire add up in the long run.

When conditioning the body, injury should be kept very very very minimal. That includes bruising. NO bruising is better than slight bruising.

I disagree - bruising is a normal part of MA training. In fact bruising is a normal part of most vigorous activities that entail some sort of contact. Eventually your body will adjust and the bruising will lessen, but to expect to train in a contact activity and not get bruised is a little unreasonable.

[Yum Cha]

For what its worth,
Hardening of the arms, fists, feet, shins, whatever is a process. Small steps over time as opposed to instant change. If you got huge bruises, most likely, you over did it a bit. It happens.

The fundamentals are circulation and massage, jau is an aid, not a magic cure.

I have been taught to massage away from the heart, so that any dead blood cells (clots) go into the hands or the feet where they are trapped in the small blood vessels, as opposed to returning to the heart or brain, where they can cause "problems" i.e. stroke, heart attack, etc.

However, a circular motion is used, with the upstroke being more gentle than the downstroke, if that makes sense. Quite often a cotton ball is used held between the thumb and forefinger.

The Jau has a warming effect, which opens the capilaries, increasing blood flow, increased blood flow brings healing, in the form of fresh blood and also releases the trapped dead blood (stasis) visible as bruises. The idea is to gently massage the tissue to move the dead blood out, and allow fresh blood in. You shouldn't massage to the point where you cause additional injury to the bruised area.

Over time, your tissue will "scar" inside, become tougher and be able to handle more impact without "crushing" and breaking up the capillaries that then bleed and cause the visible bruise. Don't worry, over time the scarring diminishes and you become a softie again, if you stop training.

Once you have trained up a bit, the bruising becomes less, and a 'preventative" treatment with jau after contact training releases any stasis, and no bruising becomes evident.

Now, this is not the be all and end all of herbal medicines, but a basic explanation of the basic principles from my own experience. Not "mystical" mumbo jumbo. Some jaus have additional additives which may cause various different effects, but that's getting into specialised treatment, like iron palm, etc.

Boxers have long enjoyed the benefits of a 'rubdown' after sparring, using witchazel or other western 'jau' like Ben Gay or whatever. Its the same fundamental treatment. Heat, circulation, massage, fresh blood to promote healing.

Have a look at the diagrams on http://www.kungfuoil.com, the illustration has a large version too, just click on the image.

[Ou Ji]

Karateka have nasty looking hands because they condition hard from the start and don't use Jow (a secret the Chinese did not pass on to Japan).

The key to conditioning is, like Yum Cha said, small steps over time. The cycle of 'minor injury - repair - minor injury - repair' is what toughens the body. As you progress you can go harder and harder.

An interesting side note: during Iron Palm training you're not supposed to 'spill your seed'. Zinc plays a major role in wound healing and it's prevelant in semen. Losing semen causes a dificiency of zinc so your body has touble healing the micro-tears and damage from the conditioning.

[brothernumber9]

some jows break up calcium deposits, so if for instance you are training to toughen up your shins or knuckles or forearems and you wish for the calcium deposits to develop than be sure to use a dit da that is best suited to help accordingly. which way to massage may depend on where bruising may occur and which way the blood flows along those points.

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Many good posts.
Correct training is what prevents major injury, not DDJ. Training must be done progressively increasing force over time. Training should not cause significant injury...if it does back off a little. A good jow should stop bleeding and yet increase blood circulation and get rid of bruising...paradox...but it is the herb combination that does it. As well it acts as a analgesic. A good jow along with correct training and massage will toughen up the tissues over time with no scar tissue formed at any point in the training.

Good luck in your training.

GHD

[travelsbyknight]

Within two days after I started this topic, the big azz bruises all but vanished. I applied jow twice a day and rubbed REALLY hard but downward.

Oh yeah, whoever said that bruising is good because it gets bad blood out of bones...you're on crack.

[travelsbyknight]

When conditioning a certain area...will a time ever come when bruising won't happen?

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Yes...but as the area becomes more resilient you will probably unconsciously increase the force...which means more bruising until the area adapts to the increase.

GHD

[joedoe]

Originally posted by travelsbyknight
When conditioning a certain area...will a time ever come when bruising won't happen?

After 17 years, I still occasionally bruise but not often. After a while you don't bruise as much, and by then you are so used to it it doesn't bother you anymore :)

[freehand]

So, does anyone know of a blind study (i.e. scientific study) of the effectiveness of this treatment?

I know that arts which result in bruising, but do not use dit da jow, still see a reduction of bruising over time. Do you know if you are improving simply from natural adaption, or are you improving *faster because you use this medicine? How could you tell?

I know that for endurance training and strength training, considerable improvement can be seen in anyone who sticks with it.

Whether DDJ contributes or not, the key must be persistence, restraint, and effort - just like weights or running. Scientific studies have recently been released which show that the one thing which makes tougher bones than weight training, is pounding - i.e. breakfalls and iron palm kind of stuff.

The fighting arts are *emperical arts; that is, they learned thru observation and deduction, just like Western medicie. But like western medicine, they may learn something that ain't true, if it's not backed up with the scientific method. When I was a kid, doctors told us to take salt when working out in the summer, to stay in bed if you had a bad heart, and that weights would make you slow and stiff. These are now all accepted as wrong.

Maybe our favorite kung fu styles are only 90% right?

Danged if I know how to figure out which is which, though.

[joedoe]

I don't think DDJ makes your bones stringer as such, rather it assists in the healing process so that you can get back into hard training quicker (kind of like how anabolic steroids work). From what I understand, DDJ helps to break down the bruising and assist in healing the damaged tissue.

But don't take my word for it because I am not very well versed on how DDJ actually works, I only know that it does. I have found that bruising and soreness from the contact in training is healed in two or three days with DDJ, but can take anywhere up to 2 weeks without. Medically it may well be a load of rot, I wouldn't know, but it works for me so I will stick with it :)

[travelsbyknight]

So is it safe to condition over a bruised area or should I wait till the bruise goes away before I start conditioning again?

[David]

Originally posted by travelsbyknight
Oh yeah, whoever said that bruising is good because it gets bad blood out of bones...you're on crack.

I am on crack but you misquoted me, so you're on glue.

A deep bruise/trauma can be encouraged to become bigger by using jow. This is the bruise deep in your flesh rising to the surface to be dissipated. The bad-health associated with conditioning is partly attributable to bones and flesh around the bones that never heals from the trauma because only the skin is ever healed.

'Swhat I was told.

Rgds,
David

[joedoe]

Originally posted by travelsbyknight
So is it safe to condition over a bruised area or should I wait till the bruise goes away before I start conditioning again?

Depends on who you ask :) Some people say you should let the bruising heal first, others say that it is OK to continue to train. Me personally I keep training. But DDJ should help to shorten the time you are bruised.

[Ou Ji]

I would wait for the brusing to heal and concentrate on another area while it's healing. And I don't mean beat the crap out of your hands then take a week off to heal. It's an incremental process, remember? Gradually build up. Too much bruising then back off, heal and start over. Causing more damage to an already damaged area could cause deformity (Karate hands).

[HungMoJue]

supposedly, the Southern Mantis schools have opium in their Jow, is this true?

[HungMoJue]

supposedly, the Southern Mantis schools have opium in their Jow, is this true?

[IronFist]

Originally posted by David
The visible bruise is the bad blood coming away from the bones. You want that to happen :).

Rgds,
David

I hope you're joking. That's the worst, and most incorrect explination I've ever heard.

Anyway, if you're doing arm conditioning or whatever, if you bruise it means you tried to go too fast. Ideally you want no bruises, but that's hard to do. Just remember, bruising is NOT the goal. When you bruise you shouldn't hit the bruised area again until it has healed.

If you go slowly enough, it's possible to get good conditioning without much bruising. Most people just try to rush through it too fast.

[David Jamieson]

from kidshealth.org, and I am posting this so we can all be on the same page as far as facts are concerned.


A bruise is also called a contusion (say: ken-too-zhen), and it forms after a hard enough bump to the soft tissues under your skin. When these tissues are injured, small veins and capillaries (the tiniest blood vessels) under the skin sometimes break. These blood vessels then leak out red blood cells.

The red blood cells that collect under your skin are what cause that bluish, purplish, reddish, or blackish mark. That's where black-and-blue marks get their name - from their color on the skin.

Some people bruise easily whereas others may have tougher skin tissue. Despite the many ways you can get them, bruises pretty much go through the same colorful changes as the body begins to heal itself.

A bruise will turn nearly all the colors in the rainbow before it finally fades away. The color changes mean that your body is metabolizing (say: meh-tab-ah-lie-zing), or breaking down, the blood cells in the skin. This is the chemical process that your body goes through to repair itself.

Imagine you're hit with a baseball in the leg. Ouch! Your body will go through the following phases:

First, you'll probably have a bump that will probably look red or purplish and tender. The bump might swell from the blood collecting under the tissue.
After a couple of days, the bruise will look blue (or even blackish).
After 5 to 10 days, it may look greenish or even yellow.
After 10 to 14 days, the bruise will most likely be a light brown, then get lighter and lighter as it fades away.
Most bruises will disappear after 2 weeks, and some go away even sooner. However, if a bruise does not go away after 2 weeks, you should let your parent know. To help reduce swelling or the amount of bruising after an injury, apply a cold compress to the bruise for at least 10 minutes. And next time you're playing hard, wear your protective pads or gear to avoid bruises altogether!

ok, so now we all know exactly what a bruise is.

As for dit da jow, this medicine speeds healing by increasing the speed of the healing process along with the massage.

I believe the reason that a cold compress is used in teh above example is because a cold compress will stop the blood from flowing and will slow the bruise and decrease the immediate damage and swelling.

Dit Da Jow is used to speed the healing and you will heal faster than you normally do when you bruise provided the jow is of the correct recipe for what youa re using it for.

IE: there are quite a few jows that do nothing but make your skin sticky and smell bad lol. These are easily identified by not helping the bruise to heal faster. As it says, better to avoid this kind of damage and to condition your toughness slowly and over time. Patience is required and those with a lot of zeal have little patience, hence their frequent injury.

Take it easier, you'll get there.

cheers

cheers

[David]

I may be talking rubbish but I ain't joking :o.

That's how I like to visualise it :).

Rgds,
David

[anton]

Originally posted by Yum Cha
Have a look at the diagrams on http://www.kungfuoil.com, the illustration has a large version too, just click on the image.

Hey they sell it in Melbourne, and that's a cool bottle! :D Have you ever used this? is it a good jau?