White Ape Steals Peach

[mantis108]

Here's a great thread on a Chinese Mantis Forum that I found about Baiyuan Tautao (white Ape Steals Peach). The first page of this link has the drawings and the second page is a scanned in WHF version in its entirity totaling 24 moves. This also is the exact match of Lam Wing Kit's WASP second road in his book on page 31.

White Ape Steals Peach (http://www.wushuweb.com/forum/Announce/announce.asp?BoardID=99&ID=316712&r=317007&Upflag=0&p=0&q=1)

Hope you all enjoy. :) Let's share your insights of the form.

Mantis108

PS Almost forgot the link. :o

[Ren Blade]

Thanks. That was great. I never got to see the real White Ape Steals Peach form. It definitely is alot different from the Yu Hai's version of White Ape Steals Peach.

If Yu Hai made up a complete different form for Wushu Mantis, then why did he choose to call his self created form White Ape Steals Peach as well? Yu Hai's Mantis looks like it has Ba Gua flavor here and there.

[Young Mantis]

Ren Blade,

Be aware that Law Gwong Yuk's White Ape Steals the Peach is much different from the one played by most PRC mantis practitioners. The PRC White Ape Steals the Peach is much more similar to LGY's Mantis Steals the Peach. I believe there are past threads on this. Try searching in this forum.

I have not seen Yu Hai's version so I can not comment on it.

YM

[German Bai Lung]

Hi All,

I can only say that the Ba Yuen Tao Tou Kuen in the LGY-CCM-Lee Kam Wing Line is totaly different from the shown form of the WHF Lineage!

It must be very interessting to compare both live. SadlyI don´t know anyone in germany who knows the WHF version ....

[mantis108]

You are most welcome Ren Blade. :) Thanks for the input, Young Mantis.

I think this is the Mainland WASP that you referred to:

Mainland Baiyuan Tautao (http://www.mantismartialart.com/demo1r-1r1.wmv)

It is indeed look a lot more like that Tanglang Tautao in HK 7* lineages.

I think the 2nd Road or Routine is actually the last 3 roads of the WASP (HK 7* lineages). It would seem that it is for the purpose of group preformance. The whole form is rather long and would take up quite a bit of space. So the last 3 roads were chosen as public group performance material. Here's an example of it in group performance from the Team Mantis site.

HK Baiyuan Tautao Erlu (http://www.teammantis.com/Rowan2001.html)

even a group of 6 - 8 people can perform it on a small stage. I believe the 2nd Road designation was just given to it for communication purposes so that the performers knows actually what to perform. It somehow got stick with the WASP designation instead. Anyway, it created some confussion.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[MantisifuFW]

Bai Lung,

As Mantis 108 has said, the set presented in the pictures is identical to the CCM Kune Po for the Second Route of CCM's Bai Yuan Tou Tao.

Are you familar with the Second Route of this form? If so, then it would seem that what we have is a departure from CCM's curriculum by LKW. We have discussed this set before on this forum and Master Chiu Leung, also a student of CCM has a version of this Second Route that is very similar to the WHF version, even though Master Chiu's Tanglang was influenced by the Gongfu of the Yip Ming Duk monks and his sets preserve this influence through variances form the CCM Kunepo.

Development in the Gongfu of persons as they practice is inevidable. When these developments are significant and viewed to be of sufficient value to bear preservation for future generations, they are often preserved in the sets of that master. If LKW's Bak Yuen Tao Toe has been altered, one can be certain that there are developments in his Gongfu that necessitated this.

I, for one, would be facinated to find out what they were, if indeed the set has been changed.

Thanks for your input on this Bai Lung, it could be the beginning of a facinating study into the development of the Gongfu of Lee Kam Wing.

Steve Cottrell

[Mantis9]

Sifu Cottrell,

Just a question about the HK clip Mantis108 posted. Does this reflect your BYTT closely?

The reason I ask, is at two parts of the form shown, the players kick, post the kick leg in front, then pivot around to gua/dung san bu.

Being from the Chen Zhen Yi lineage, I was under the impression that CCY's and WHF's form where relatively the same. So, falsely I assume now, that kicked a pivoted into gua without posted the kicking foot.

Just curious, thanks.

Mantis9

[MantisifuFW]

Mantis 108,

This set has been a subject of conflicting opinions for many years among HK Tanglang practitioners. My own research has, in the past, brought some disagreement because of the varing opinions. I do not wish to debate so I will present short versions of each side as follows:

WHF said that the short set, 24 postures in all, is an original set taught by master Luo and that it's shortness was to train the breath and the use of Ging. They hold that the "first route" of this set is a creation of CCM presenting ideas that he wished to preserve from master Luo.

Chun Chin Yee practitioners, (CCY being another senior student under master Luo), hold that the set was indeed the only one that was taught by Master Luo and that a first route was added by master CCM.

Many CCM practitioners hold that the first route of this set was given to them by master Luo as inheritors of the system. (A claim disputed by WHF and Chun Chin Yee's disciples).

Master Chiu Leung of New York also posesses this first route in his curriculum as well as the other sets listed in Lam Wing Kit's Kunepo. I do not know where they stand on the claims of a single inheritor.

I have no desire to argue this in any respect but this is the status of the "First Route".

Hope it helps,

Steve Cottrell

[MantisifuFW]

Mantis 9,

I do not know where the posted foot is but I can say that the Gua in movement 18 of the set as we practice it, occurs after one performs a zhuan or rotation with the foot still in the air. the same happens in movement 23 where one performs zhuan or rotation after a cheng tui or proping kick.

In other words, we do not post the foot, (I believe that this is what you are refering to, correct me if I am wrong). I don't know what lineage this group is, perhaps they could not get the timing of the set together for what I take to be a group performance.

Hope it helps,

Steve Cottrell

[MantisifuFW]

Shifu Pel,

Thank you for providing this information concerning your line also.

Also, you have seen this set in LKW's curriculum, is it as different as Bai Lung has said? If so, can you shead any light on when it changed and perhaps why?

Thanks again for your willingness to share with the community!

Steve Cottrell

[MantisCool]

I think it is wrong to call the White Ape Steals the Peach Route 1 and 2. It should be version 1 and 2 because either school only learnt 1 type and not both types. Those that have both types are acquired not passed down.

I am from the Wong Kam Huang lineage and ours is exactly the same as the WHF's. There isnt any 3rd version. Those from the PRC is Mantis steals the Peach abeit a different name. Lam Wing Kit only listed the 2 versions from the HK lineages.

[MantisifuFW]

MantisCool,

Thank you for sharing your line's approach to this set. It really begins to give a clear picture of master Luo's approach to Tanglang.

However, Lam Wing Kit lists both sets in his book because he is preserving the heritage of the CCM branch of Tanglang. They do, in fact, perform both roads of White Ape Steals the Peach and consider them one set.

It seems, however, as we have discussed here, that all branches of Luo's HK Tanglang, except those associated with CCM, perform the set as pictured on the website.

It is encouraging to hear about all the branches of Master Luo who continue to this day. And about how much we all continue to have in common!

Thanks for sharing,

Steve Cottrell

[MantisifuFW]

Mantis Cool,

My research on the mainland indicates that the mainland version of White Ape Steals the Peach very likely existed before Master Luo's version of the set that we all share.

If one looks at the mainland version of "white ape steals the peach" and the HK set "Mantis steals the peach", they are nearly identical.

Also on the mainland they have no set called "mantis steals the peach". As I inquired about this difference they said that master Luo created the two White Ape sets that he taught in HK and renamed the mainland White Ape sets, calling them Mantis Steals the Peach and Mantis Exits the Cave.

The reason he did this, as far as I can tell from histories written at the time, is that Master Luo was combining his Qixing Tanglang with Meihua and Guangbang Tanglang. As such, his unique version that we now call HK Tanglang has a different arrangement of sets. It is no longer pure Qixing. This is why, for example, WHF used the name Northern Mantis to describe his style. It was no longer Qixing when these other influences were added.

Hope I haven't been too confusing.

Steve Cottrell

[German Bai Lung]

Very interesting and very confused. ;)

The inflicting of Tong Long Tao Tou Kuen is indeed obvious.

I will make a clip of all three: Ba Yuen Chot Dong, Ba Yuen Tao Tou, Tong Long Tao Tou...

So maybe it will be easier to figure the differences and the commons out!

Will posting the clips on Sunday ...

[GermanMantis]

Originally posted by Kai Uwe Pel


... yes maybe ;)
we are still waiting for your clips.
Thanks

Mr. Pel you may have see different version, may be you can help us with some clips in the meanwhile. :)

Thx for your help!

[German Bai Lung]

So, that you don´t have to wait that long, here is a first a Tong Long Tao Tou Kuen performed by a student last week on a Celebration:

Tong Long Tao Tou Kuen (http://www.bailung.de/mov/tonglongtt.mov)

For any comments on the quality of the performing the form: please feel free to open a new thread.
This thread is better used for further diskussion about the lineages and the form differences, I think.

[mantis108]

Thank you for the background info. :) I honestly have no clue that so much is going on behind a form since I am not a Kung Fu politic inclined person. You guidence is deeply appreciated.

Hi GBL,

Thanks for sharing the clip. I think you right that it would be great to have a seperate thread for it.

To All,

It is very heartwarming to see that details and infomation keep pouring in. I hope this serves as a great example of sharing on the KFO mantis board. Please keep them coming. :)

Warm regards

Mantis108

[German Bai Lung]

So here are our (Lee Kam Wing Linage) Versions of Ba Yuen Tao Tou and Chot Dong Kuen:

Ba Yuen Tao Tou Kuen (http://www.bailung.de/mov/bayuentt.mov)

Ba Yuen Chot Dong Kuen (http://www.bailung.de/mov/bayuencd.mov)

[Young Mantis]

Originally posted by Mantis9
Just a question about the HK clip Mantis108 posted. Does this reflect your BYTT closely?

The reason I ask, is at two parts of the form shown, the players kick, post the kick leg in front, then pivot around to gua/dung san bu.

Being from the Chen Zhen Yi lineage, I was under the impression that CCY's and WHF's form where relatively the same. So, falsely I assume now, that kicked a pivoted into gua without posted the kicking foot.

Just curious, thanks.

Mantis9

Mantis9,

I would like to say that in regards to the posted clip of Team Mantis' BYTT, while the sequence is fairly close to our WHF version, some of their transitions are different from ours.

In the beginning of the second road in our version, the diu sau is followed by a kick that carries all the way around instead of Team Mantis' stepping forward first. I assume this is what you are referring to as "posting" the kicking foot. Also at the end of the last road, a similar difference is noted. Overall, their flavor is not typical of WHF's BYTT.

YM

[mantis108]

Hi German BaiLung,

Great clips. Very fluid and great speed as well. Congratulations to those performing them and thanks for sharing.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[German Bai Lung]

So nothing new the last days ... ;)

But some questions remain:

- MantisCool said, that there were different versions not roads. So why are there different versions? What do you think?
- same names in different linages are different forms: why?
- did the meihua lineage got bayun forms? Are they different?


For me it is interesting to see curricili changed in the past.
I have not the position to judge anyone who change curricili or even forms! I think most changes are done for a reason and it is nothing wrong to develop. Only point is who is changing the curriculum!

[piotrj]

yes, in fact i was thinking many times how possible are so big changes between branches only one style wich is tang lang quan.
maybe the answer is that gong fu live with people, and we are different persons. even our posture, weight stimulate our gong fu. in some cases people decide to create or changed style beacause of their fight experience (or no experience), they learn some more from others and they want to put new technics to style. or maybe they dont know complete style and decide to create rest. in my opnion it is very hard to find one answer about changes in tang lang quan. most important is that it is still one family. my teacher Slawomir Milczarek decide to find source in yantai's 7* tang lang quan by Yu Tian Cheng shifu and im happy about this. but most important thing to everyone should be fact that tang lang quan is real fighitng art. no matter from wich branch. if you practise good gong fu and it is no waste of time that is ok. "good fists and good heart" in my opinion it is sense of practising. so if we do in diffrent ways bei yuan tou toe - but still we understand why and what for - it is ok.

[18elders]

nice clips, appreciate it .

[Oso]

christ almighty, 18E, that's frikken low, man. props.

[yu shan]

I understand this is a basic form in our Mantis world. But after all these years, I finally learned this form. Although basic, this form is chock full of applications and fighting goodies! Shrfu Jake Burroughs came out to Tennessee and shared. He is a student of Hu Xi Lin Laoshi. Master Hu studied under Master Ma HanQing for 30 years. Master Ilya Profatilov was also a deciple of Ma HanQing and Wang Yuanqian. I feel very lucky to be included. We will put up a thread about the seminar soon.

[B.Tunks]

Yushan,

I dont agree that this is a basic form (PRC- Bai Yuan Tou Tao/ Tou Tao, Jing Wu- Tanglang Tou Tao, not talking about Jing Wu- Bai Yuan Tou Tao). It is the acme of Qixing Tanglang, which is where it originally comes from. It is full of subtleties and intricasies and is very difficult to master, only appearing 'basic' superficially.

bt

[German Bai Lung]

Originally posted by B.Tunks
Yushan,

I dont agree that this is a basic form (PRC- Bai Yuan Tou Tao/ Tou Tao, Jing Wu- Tanglang Tou Tao, not talking about Jing Wu- Bai Yuan Tou Tao). It is the acme of Qixing Tanglang, which is where it originally comes from. It is full of subtleties and intricasies and is very difficult to master, only appearing 'basic' superficially.

bt

Hallo,

I absolute agree!
There is almost endlessly stuff in the Tau Tou Forms!

[ursa major]

The links to the vids are not working.

thx,
UM.

[yu shan]

Mr. Tunks

Let me make a slight adjustment to this comment of mine about Tao Tou. In my eyes this form is my most challenging so far. I have my work cut out for me. I`m looking forward to exchanging ideas with Tainan Mantis about this form next time we meet. The gentleman who taught me and a few of my peers made the comments about it being basic. This form will get my undivided attention, excuse me if I have offended.

[Oso]

Tianan,

The version Jake showed us was Taiji Meihua.

What version is in our Pong Lai curriculum?



It was a great seminar, many thanks to Jake Burroughs for his sharing of form and application.

[Oso]

yu shan, if I might interject: I asked about the placement of this set within Master Hu's curriculum and Jake said it was the first mantis form taught but if the student was brand new to kung fu/ma then there were several other sets that were learned first. Little Red Fist from the Shaolin corpus was one he mentioned specifically.

IMHO, BYTT has some very readily available applications that make the set very user friendly to begin with and lends the impression of 'basicness' that belies the more intricate applications that will come with time and deeper study of the movement.

[Tainan Mantis]

Yushan Oso,
Glad you liked the form.
I don't think the word basics apply to this form or hardly any other form of PM for that matter.
They are arrangements of tecniques, some more techniques than others.

A straight punch and hook punch can be the tecnique to win the fight.
If the helped you defeat your opponent can we call them basic?

OK, sorry for all the pontificating.

A better term is essential or important, not basic.

I have seen this performed by Shandong super Mantis men and it looked very not basic.

In my opinion the form Bai Yuan Toe Tao has a lot of essential PM techniques.

These essentials can be built open with other techniques, so in that sense it can be called basic.
But if you never learn another form but this, and how to fight with it, that may be all you need.

I learned this form from my first PM Shrfu, known as Art D.
He learned it in Shandong from several of his trips there.

Shrye knows a somewhat different version though closely related, as wel as the HK 7* version.

I like the Art D version the most though.

[Oso]

Yushan Oso,
Glad you liked the form.
I don't think the word basics apply to this form or hardly any other form of PM for that matter.
They are arrangements of tecniques, some more techniques than others.

A straight punch and hook punch can be the tecnique to win the fight.
If the helped you defeat your opponent can we call them basic?


i would say that 'basicness' would lie in the principle.

the straight punch that connects the mass of your body to someones face is pretty basic whereas the straight punch that intercepts an incoming attack while on the way to said face is more complicated in principle.

:)



I think the tendancy to look at the first of anything as the most basic of that set is what we are experiencing. Little Four Hands in our curriculum is certainly full of things to apply differently than the 2 person shows us but colloquially we look at and refer to it as our introduction to basic pong lai mantis. If I'm way off base in this comparison please correct me.

I feel pretty sure that Jake was just showing us rudimentary application of the set so we would get a feel for how it should be used.

I dug the fact that the first line drill we did is a method of entering and striking that I've been using for a very long time now.


are both versions Master Shr knows in the curriculum? or does he favor one over the other?

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Oso

I feel pretty sure that Jake was just showing us rudimentary application of the set so we would get a feel for how it should be used.

I dug the fact that the first line drill we did is a method of entering and striking that I've been using for a very long time now.


I think foundational or fundamental might be approriate since it seems to encapsule the essence of the PM style. I also dug the first line drill excercises, since that technique is a staple of my sparring applications also. It was nice to drill new combonations, throws and chin na out of this technique as well.

[Oso]

good points on the semantics...I don't think any of us considered it simple by any means.

[MantisCool]

I think there is a confusion on the Bai Yuan Tou Tao!

The Bai Yuan Tou Tao of PRC is the Tang Lang Tou Tao of HK.

I believe Yu Shan refers to the Bai Yuan Tou Tao of HK which is a short form and thus looks basic. We only learn this form after a few years of Mantis. It is also the shortest.

If you are talking about the BYTT of PRC or TLTT of HK than it is an advanced form.

[B.Tunks]

Mantis Cool,

I think Yushan learnt a Taijimeihua version of PRC Bai Yuan Tou Tao if I'm not mistaken?

bt

[B.Tunks]

Yushan,

No offence taken of course! I am not an old woman (though some may disagree). I get your meaning.

BT

[Ming Yue]

B.Tunks

It was the taiji meihua version that we learned from Mr. Burroughs.

very curious about Oso's question - is there a version in the PL curriculum?

[18elders]

yes there is, there is also a 2 person set to it

[Ming Yue]

thanks Shrfu! Looking forward to seeing it.
:)

[MantisCool]

B Tunks

If it is a Taijimeihua version of PRC's BYTT or our TLTT than it is an advanced form. It might looks basic but the combination has very good linear progression. Meaning it is very much like an attacking form.

[yu shan]

MantisCool

Shifu Tunks is correct, it is Taiji Meihua. Though I just learned this form, it does seem VERY aggressive. I`ve learned the basic 101 applications, and I`m curious to see what Tainan Mantis shares. My Shrbu holds this form in high regards. MC, if you go back to page two, you will see the lineage of this form. Again, sorry if I came across as thinking this is an easy form, I should know better. Kind of reacted to the Teachers stories about the form and my peers.

Tainan Mantis & B. Tunks

Nothing in Mantis is easy for me! I appreciate any morsel of information thrown my way. Mr. Tunks, thank you sir for getting my meaning. BTW, I am curious about the BYTT form I`ve seen in Taiwan executed by Shr ZhengZhong`s students. So what is it that we see?