Leung Sheung Biu Jee?

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


In Leung Sheung lineage Biu Jee there is a turning huen sao looking move that makes use of a Cat type (Pole stance) horse.

Would someone care to give a description of a typical usage? We have a similar body posture!


TIA,

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi Jim,

Here is my limited understanding of it. There might be other intentions and applications, but I'm not aware them yet. The entire move, from ygkym to "cat stance" and back, is essentially a huge coiling and release manuever. Starting from the ygkym, where your energy is neutral, you turn and "coil" to the side with a rounded fook sau, storing energy. The 90 degree mark is essentially the apex of the coil. As you come back to the YGKYM, you're releasing the potential energy, culminating in the final uncoiling of the rounded fook sau into the flat fook sau.

There may be other applications for the move and it may be used for other types of development, but like I said, I haven't been exposed to them as of yet. In my experience, when Ken teaches this part, what I described above is what he emphasizes.

Regards,
Alan

[kj]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
In Leung Sheung lineage Biu Jee there is a turning huen sao looking move that makes use of a Cat type (Pole stance) horse.

Would someone care to give a description of a typical usage? We have a similar body posture!


Hi again Jim.

IME, it's more a movement (and set of movements) than a posture.

Note: For better or worse, I am not much oriented toward "techniques" and direct application thinking so much, as tending to train and respond more in terms of forces or "energy," and mechanics. E.g., in application, we are not constrained to the same foot/hand combinations as occur explicitly in the sets, and a single movement may be applied in virtually limitless ways. So my apologies in advance on not being able to offer more on that account, due to the limitations and resistance in my own way of thinking.

Nonetheless, here are a few brief and exploratory thoughts, in case of anything useful.


The movement can be done with the foot flat rather than cat-stance looking. Heel up is more a tool for the learner, emphasizing weight fully on the rear leg, leading leg empty.
The turning with fuk sau/huen sau can be used to take the opponent off center (as an example application, even though I'm not predisposed to interpret the sets in that manner). For example, to open the opponent, or take them "off the line" so to speak (hopefully, with a much smaller movement than practiced in the set) and subsequently to utilize the opening created.
The returning movement is as important and interesting as the movement to the position described.
Also, used together, one movement can take the opponent off your center, and the returning movement utilizing the opening created.
Interestingly enough, the completing hand movement on return does train a specific form of "energy" or "unintentional power" release through the forearm, wrist and hand.
The huen component can be used anytime to move around, or in conjunction with lau sau. Huen sau can also change of course (e.g., low palm strike to the ribs).
The combination of movements could of course also be used simply for following or regaining control of the opponent and center.
Naturally, any time weight is off the leading leg, it is free to kick.
Movement in both directions emphasizes body unity relationships as I mentioned in another thread (knee to knee, knees to elbows, and relationships of these through pelvis, waist and shoulders).
For me, this is usually the most challenging of all the movements in the sets. When done correctly, it works my knees harder than just about anything, and highly challenges my ability to maintain body unity.


Perhaps someone with additional insights or thoughts will chime in too.

Now, after that bit of scatter shooting, what application(s) did you have in mind?

Regards,
- kj

[kj]

Originally posted by kj
Perhaps someone with additional insights or thoughts will chime in too.

Looks like Zhuge already did. What he said. :)
- kj

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Alan!


Excellent!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Exactly the same Idea or Concept for body powering in LJ Koo Lo teaching.


Many thanks!

[Jim Roselando]

Hey KJ!


We are talking too much today! hehehe


Now, after that bit of scatter shooting, what application(s) did you have in mind?


Ooops. It was not so much the application but the key point. Bad writing on my part. Alan's reply was what I was looking for but I also appreciate yours! Thanks for the insight!



Regards,

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi Jim,

There's an additional point that you may or may not find interesting. The coiling and storing of energy doesn't primarily occur at the waist. In fact, we really don't ever use the torquing of the waist to generate energy. For us, rotational/turning energy is driven by the knees, not by the torso, waist, or hip. I mention this because I remember you mentioning that you do use the waist to generate/add energy. This might be an interesting point of difference worth discussing.

Regards,
Alan

[kj]

Good point, Zhuge.

When people refer to the waist in dialogs such as these, frequently I am unsure if they mean to develop torque by twisting at the waist, or instead a vertical use of the waist.

I wholly agree that we do not favor the former. The latter is a more subtle use, or at least an observation of something which observably manifests, especially in the back waist area when issuing power (through any limbs), and is more relevant in our practice.

Regards,
- kj

[John Weiland]

I'd like to further clarify that in this Biu Jee turning movement, the position of the hand is fixed relative to the outward turn of the body; that is the arm is stable relative to the body's turning aside from KJ's and Zhuge Liang's correct allusion to the application of energy of the elbow, forearm, and palm from bent "fook" to flat fook sau on the return to the YGKYM and return to the starting position.

(This may have been obvious to the knowledgable reader, but I'm a belt and suspenders kind of writer.)

Point of reference, this is one of those movements that we repeat three times in mid set and the turn is done very slowly (ca. 5 seconds) to maintain elbow/knee connection, and in application, connection to one's partner or opponent.

Regards,

[Jim Roselando]

Hey KJ/Alan,


Appreciate the discussion/info.. I understand the way we generate power is different but the main Idea is not so different. Be it coiling and releasing with the waist/spine or be it coiling/releasing from your way. The thing I notice is that the posture, while a few minor details are different, are very close. The softness idea is also very close. Body powering for YM teaching differs from Koo Lo teaching but its good to see some key ideas running parallel.


See ya,

[reneritchie]

Forget Biu Jee, what about the secret dummy form?

[kj]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Forget Biu Jee, what about the secret dummy form?

Ha ha! Stop spreading rumors. :D

Regards,
- kj

[reneritchie]

Owch! Er... yes... rumors... My bad. Forget it everyone. There is no secret dummy form. Pow! Er... yeah... :)

[Grendel]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Owch! Er... yes... rumors... My bad. Forget it everyone. There is no secret dummy form. Pow! Er... yeah... :)
As far as you know. :D