solo forms vs. paired "katas"

[Falcor]

In Chinese MA, forms are for the most part solo exercises, with partner sets existing as complements to the solo exercises. In Japanese MA, the "forms" or katas are, for the most part, paired exercises with specific roles for the attacker and defender (uke and nage) - this is excepting Karate, I'm referring mostly to jujutsu style arts. Which of these two approaches do you think results in a _faster_ fighting skill? Note that my question is not about which is a better way or who is better or what art is better, etc. My question refers only to the speed and pace at which a practitioner will pick up fighting skills. Thanks.

[joedoe]

Paired forms will result in a slightly better understanding of how a technique might work against an opponent with some resistance etc introduced. A solo form will allow you to refine technique but won't show you how to apply the forces required to successfully use the technique. I don't know that either would result in a better fighter - sparring is the best way to achieve that ;)

[Vash]

First, it doesn't matter if it's one set or 20, you'll only ever say "kata."

Second, there's a kick-arse article here (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=452) .

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Vash
First, it doesn't matter if it's one set or 20, you'll only ever say "kata."

Second, there's a kick-arse article here (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=452) .

Good article - I will read it a little more later. I am familiar with the training techniques he talks about as I practice the same art.

Those exercises teach you how to use your technique and how best to issue power, however they do not necessarily improve your fighting ability. As I said before, only sparring is going to do that.

[Mr Punch]

1) Paired drills, involving an uke and nage/tori in preset roles have usually been distinct from paired kata in the JMA I've taken (aikido, kendo, a little jujutsu, karate). Paired kata are to teach preset response, and to accustom the user to hard physical contact, whereas paired drills are to teach varying response to varying degrees of force, resistance, angles etc.

So, I would say developmentally, the paired kata should come first and should be progressively cut down as understanding increases, then paired drills, then at some point freestyle should be introduced.

Obviously, this is assuming that you are learning a style that uses all three approaches. Personally, I wouldn't spend so much time on paired kata, and would introduce freestyle asap to speed up the learning process.

In all of the schools I've been to that use English they've used the word 'technique' for what I'm calling paired drills. In the Japanese schools they've used the words 'waza' ('technique'!), 'renshuu' ('practice'/'drill'!) or 'keiko' ('drill'/'practice'!), or they have specific names (eg 'kiri kaeshi' in kendo)

2) I think all of the wing chun schools I've been to have used paired drills. So did the hung gar school I checked out for a wee bit.

[Fu-Pau]

Why is it so important to "speed up the learning process"?

[Mr Punch]

I was just answering Falcor's question. :shrugs:

But since you ask, so you can use your skills effectively in a competition before you get too old if that's your bag, or when you get jumped by whoever on the way home from wherever without 25 years of practice. I would suggest :shrugs: again.

I'm in it for life anyway, and have been in it for all of my adult years so I don't care particularly. Depends on your reasons for learning I'd say.

[SevenStar]

I prefer the short, single technique forms. I'm working form and application at the same time, and I can repeatedly drill the exactl technique I will be using in a fight, competition, etc.

That said, I don't think that that alone will make you develop faster - I'd expect a judo guy to develop faster than the avg. TJJ guy.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Fu-Pau
Why is it so important to "speed up the learning process"?

1. competiton

2. self defense. If it takes me years to become proficient, what happens when I'm attacked after only a few months of training?

And, it's not "speeding up the learning process" it's being more efficient. if you and falcor are learning the same style, and falcor is doing drills and such which will give him usable skill in a more reasonable time, but you are ultimately learning the same things, who has the advantage?

This is the heart of KFO's mma vs tma debate...

[Mr Punch]

OK I know I'm a boring old **** and nobody reads my posts, but didn't I just say the exact same thing...?:confused: :( :mad:

:D

And yeah, I'm not advocating solely kata/drills without accompanying freestyle sparring, randori, jiyugiko or whatever...

[stimulant]

its not an easy question to say 'which method is best or fastest' as they are doing different things.

the single person forms in our school, mizong quan - lost track boxing, are against multiple opponents, whereas two man forms are against a single opponent.

single man forms are better for footwork and technique (as they normally have far more movement and much more varied techniques) while two man forms are better for timing (although good timing is needed in a single man form to do it correctly), conditioning and mental sharpness.


our website

www.zhenwei.org

[Mr Punch]

Stimulant, don't follow your logic that solo forms are better for footwork than other drills/two-person forms. I don't do solo forms for footwork. If I want to practise footwork I'd much rather practise with a big live obstacle to move round and to test my balance while I am or he is delivering strikes etc.

Of course solo footwork practice has its place, but I wouldn't have said that was the main emphasis of my solo forms.



Also, I've seen the statement many times that paired kata are good for timing, and I don't agree at all. If by timing you mean, getting you used to putting your arms and legs in a useful position quickly in repsonse to someone else, fine, but I take timing to mean the whole rhythm of a fight/session: your rhythm, your opponent's rhythm, the patterns and lack thereof, and changes thereof. Sometimes it's faster to go slower. haven't got time to explain thhis now, but.

To me timing is trained only with sparring/other live drills. Otherwise it's too mechanical: action, reaction, action, reaction etc.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Mat
OK I know I'm a boring old **** and nobody reads my posts, but didn't I just say the exact same thing...?:confused: :( :mad:

:D

And yeah, I'm not advocating solely kata/drills without accompanying freestyle sparring, randori, jiyugiko or whatever...

shaddup ya boring old ****! :D

[stimulant]

Originally posted by Mat
Stimulant, don't follow your logic that solo forms are better for footwork than other drills/two-person forms. I don't do solo forms for footwork. If I want to practise footwork I'd much rather practise with a big live obstacle to move round and to test my balance while I am or he is delivering strikes etc.

Of course solo footwork practice has its place, but I wouldn't have said that was the main emphasis of my solo forms.



Also, I've seen the statement many times that paired kata are good for timing, and I don't agree at all. If by timing you mean, getting you used to putting your arms and legs in a useful position quickly in repsonse to someone else, fine, but I take timing to mean the whole rhythm of a fight/session: your rhythm, your opponent's rhythm, the patterns and lack thereof, and changes thereof. Sometimes it's faster to go slower. haven't got time to explain thhis now, but.

To me timing is trained only with sparring/other live drills. Otherwise it's too mechanical: action, reaction, action, reaction etc.


Well foot work in single man forms is abundant than most two man forms as (in a vast amount of styles) they aredelaing with multipile attackers. The foot work in in two man forms is also very important....but to me it lacks the 'awareness' that exists in single man forms as all the concentration is on the one antaganist.


Timing in single man forms is vital for the form itself, but the timing in two man forms is more important practical for getting your blocks in the right place and attacks / counters right.

Often hard to make yourself clear here unless go into 101% detail!

any disagrements with what I've just said....I would be interested to read anothers perspective on it.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by stimulant

Timing in single man forms is vital for the form itself, but the timing in two man forms is more important practical for getting your blocks in the right place and attacks / counters right.

any disagrements with what I've just said....I would be interested to read anothers perspective on it.

As Mat said, timing in a two man form is too mechanical - rhytm isn't broken or varied - set attack, set speed, etc. drilling and sparring would serve better to develop timing...

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by SevenStar


As Mat said, timing in a two man form is too mechanical - rhytm isn't broken or varied - set attack, set speed, etc. drilling and sparring would serve better to develop timing...

FWIW, Hsing-Ie and Hua stylists have two man sets. While they are intially taught without a break in the rhythm etc, until the moves are ingrained, in order to improve timing etc one must vary their partners and they must alos vary the speed etc so one's reaction time will improve. In my opinion, this is better than solo forms, on par with drilling, but still inferior to free sparring.

[Mr Punch]

Plus as Seven is probably gonna say if he stays awake...!:D
...
Originally posted by stimulant



Well foot work in single man forms is abundant than most two man forms as (in a vast amount of styles) they aredelaing with multipile attackers. OK, look around carefully next time you do this form. Concentrate. how many people are there? When you've finished, count the bodies.

How many people have you dealt with?

OK, next test... take a move from your form. Just a simple one, moving from one stance to another. Now get a member of your class to push you in the middle. Then get them to punch you half way through. Or kick one of your legs. Just gently.

Now there are real people interacting with you and interrupting you. You will find that the movement of your body is very very different.

Forms 'dealing with multiple attackers' are good for visualization, but they will not enable you to deal with multiple attackers in reality will they? Unless the attackers are coming in with set movements from set directions.

Solo forms are good for practising balance and basic movement but when you can do them without falling over ( :D ) you should probably augment them with work with other people!

Also, esp with the style exp you have listed, I find it odd that you are making the claim that most solo forms are for dealing with multiple opponents. There are many forms for energy development and for basic postures and positions, and I would say not so many for scores of attackers from the local Aikido School of Scooby-Doo Villain Attacks.


The foot work in in two man forms is also very important....but to me it lacks the 'awareness' that exists in single man forms as all the concentration is on the one antaganist.Again, you're talking about
awareness of people that don't exist! In medicine, the word for that is psychosis!!! :D


Timing in single man forms is vital for the form itself, but the timing in two man forms is more important practical for getting your blocks in the right place and attacks / counters right.Fine, but it's a moot point: you're not going to develop good timing for a fight by doing any kind of forms or other exercises with set patterns. Some drill work with varied speeds and angles, and the rest has gotta be sparring. Forms are not for timing. maybe for speed so you can do a movement without landing on your backside... but.

any disagrements with what I've just said....I would be interested to read anothers perspective on it. Cheers. I think this subject has had a lot of coverage here on many other threads, but it's always kinda interesting to get someone interested in discussion rather than slanging!

[Mr Punch]

Judge Pen, I know what you mean, but I would say that kind of set is not on a par with drilling if the number of moves is excessive.

KISS drills using one or two or maybe three natural follow on attacks seem to make more sense than even a varied speed and power form consisting of many moves in sequence. But then, I haven't practised those styles.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Mat
Plus as Seven is probably gonna say if he stays awake...!:D
...

Didn't make it. I trained some, then sat on the couch with the intention of coming back to the PC...

[stimulant]

Mat, some good points, but we're going to have to agree to disagree....but I thinkits more ot do with different styles as opposed to being right or wrong.

your point about having a friend push or kick during a form is invalid. In no single man form I know of do you ever imagaine being hit by an opponent. so the push / kick would be blocked, evaded, counter attacked etc. By adding something extra into the the form you are changing it. not sure if I've made my self clear, but I hope you get what I mean. Sure people will NEVER attack you one after the opther with the exact same attacks and order as any of the forms you know....but single man forms with multiple attackers make you move form one to another to another with speed, and flow. They also should build good power. and technique if done correctly.

Obviously there is the lack of resistence of a two man form, which is disadvantages in the short term, but with skill it is advantages in the long term as it will build technique and stop relience on strength.

Footwork from single man forms is vital forms. I conceed the point about energy development.....but those forms are (in my view) inpractical in a fight (obvisouily energy development forms with fighting application are different such as Taiqi etc)!

I really hope this works as I've tried 3 times to post a really indepth reply already...and it failed.....too lazy to write so much now!

[Mr Punch]

I'd appreciate it if you gave it another go.

You were talking about timing, now you're talking about speed and power.

Plus your talk about energy development forms doesn't seem to make sense. You say tai chi is an energy development form with martial applaication, but I was only talking about martial arts, not some energy development in yoga or something!!! And when you say energy development forms are not practical, are you including sil lum tao and biu jee in wing chun, and bagua circle walking or does the latter not count as a form?

Of course I appreciate the forms you are talking about develop balance and structure, but I'm as soon as your body gets the hang of these in a solo context (and I don't mean' becomes expert ' - just gets the hang of) they should be practised with partners, or drills should be extracted from them for practice in a live setting.

And I still think any but the most passing reference to multiple attackers etc in a solo form is a waste of mental energy, a fallacious and dangerous training aid, and bordering on the very odd indeed!!! :D

Part kidding of course, but I can't agree to disagree with you until you've made your points a bit clearer!

Cheers.

[stimulant]

it happened yet again.....and I've come to realise that now I've upgraded my pc at home it doesnt allow me to post here...so I have to post from work.....

I'm not sure I understand you point about taiqi....taiqi is an amazing martial art if you have the time and dedication for it, the name itself means 'Grand / supreme ultimate fist. I'm talking about traditional taiqi, not the chinese communist party verison. Like with so many other martial arts, traditional taichi is find to find these days, especially yang style. I'm not sure what the relation form taiqi to yoga you were talking about is. I'm not sure about 'sil lum tao' (as I've never seen it), but biu jee in wing chun, and bagua circle walking have practical fight applications

My comment about energy development in CMA refers to forms were it is all energy development and no martial technique. Many styles have good martial forms with internal sides incorporated in them (my own chosen art included).

My shifu teaches us the same way his father taught him. Lu shifu and his father (the great Lu Zhgen Dou) were mentioned in February's issue of Kunfu magazine in the Mizong Quan article. His father on several occasions beat more than one armed japanese soliders. And his training was primarily single man forms practise. His father made his name as a street (lei tai) fighter (no rules or gloves competitions) and he also won the first national championships in 1933/4. His skill was so great that the famous chinese warlord Zhang Xueliang (he was famous for organising the kidnapping of the chinese leader Chiang Kai Shek) empolyed him as his personal bodyguard and martial arts teacher. He, my shifu and one of my shifu's studnets in china have their names in the provincial book of martial heros (kinda like a whos who of kick @ss fighters). The point being that single man forms practise does work.....although I do conceed that much time and dedication agian are needed.

If I ask my shifu to train me for competition he will make me do lots of sanda practise (our sanda actually looks like kung-fu!), if I tell him I want ot be a good fighter in the street he will simply tell me to practise forms more!

The point being that single mans forms practise is the bread and butter of these great men. Two man forms and combat drills are, in my view, short term short cuts, but no long term substitute for single man forms training.

I agree that drills and applications should be extracted from forms and practise lots...but not at the expense of the form training itself. It would be like taking an engine out of a car and tunning it but not putting it back in the car again!

:)

[Royal Dragon]

I think the original assumption that Chinese Kung Fu forms are solo, is false.

They may not be full two man sets, start to finish, but each and every move in them is suposed to be isolated out, and drilled with a partner. They are by definition a long collection of individual two man drills.

Also, I think this is wrong:

The point being that single mans forms practise is the bread and butter of these great men. Two man forms and combat drills are, in my view, short term short cuts, but no long term substitute for single man forms training.

Reply]
Solo forms practice is important, but the two man forms and combat drills are what builds your skill to a higher level. Full free sparring against resisting opponents is what takes you to mastery. Guys that just do forms get smoked by guys who actually fight every time.

[stimulant]

proof of the pudding is in the eating....

many great fighters became so mainly though single man practise......

huo yuan jia (or story says) was not allowed to train by his father, so he spied and copyed the movments...when a challenger came one day beat the other sons young Huo Yuan Jia easily defeated him and so impressed his father that he taught him the rest of his family mizong style.....and he had no two man practise at all........

[Royal Dragon]

Put him in his prime into an MMA ring, and I guarentee he'd get smoked.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by stimulant
proof of the pudding is in the eating....

many great fighters became so mainly though single man practise......

huo yuan jia (or story says) was not allowed to train by his father, so he spied and copyed the movments...when a challenger came one day beat the other sons young Huo Yuan Jia easily defeated him and so impressed his father that he taught him the rest of his family mizong style.....and he had no two man practise at all........

problem is, there's no way to verify that. I agree with RD though, in his prime, he'd still get smoked in the ring today. I think most athletes of yesteryear would get smoked by those of today though, from bodybuilding, to running to MA.


single man forms practice alone does not a fighter make...

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by SevenStar


problem is, there's no way to verify that. I agree with RD though, in his prime, he'd still get smoked in the ring today. I think most athletes of yesteryear would get smoked by those of today though, from bodybuilding, to running to MA.


single man forms practice alone does not a fighter make...
Yeah, but it's all about context. Jim Brown certainly wouldn't have averaged 5.4 yards/carry against players like Ray Lewis, but in his day, with his talent, and his training, he was cock of the walk. No one disputes he was great, in fact, people still argue he was the greatest despite not going up against Ray Lewis. Why bust the chops of a fighter from generations past or fault him for not having the advantages of current fighters?

[norther practitioner]

huo yuan jia (or story says) was not allowed to train by his father, so he spied and copyed the movments...when a challenger came one day beat the other sons young Huo Yuan Jia easily defeated him and so impressed his father that he taught him the rest of his family mizong style.....and he had no two man practise at all........

Is it me, or do many lineages have this story somewhere in there....


not that I'm a doubter....

[Royal Dragon]

I think most athletes of yesteryear would get smoked by those of today though, from bodybuilding, to running to MA.

Reply]
This may be true in many arenas, but in this case I think it's mostly to do with the fact that practice of forms alone CANNOT make a fighter. The ancient Kung Fu fighters knew this, so they fought to build thier skills. The legands are full of stories like this. Forms only, is a relatively modern thing, maybe in the last 80 years or so.

I'm living proof. During times I have done lots, and lots of sparring and two man work, I could fight rather well. Then during times I had noone, and just did forms, I actually lost fighting abiltity, that was ONLY restored by...................you guessed it..........sparring again.

Now that all I really do is some Qigong a coupe of times a week, I probably can't do either. WD's gonna kill me this spring. :(

The point is this, we get good at what we do. Yes forms are PART of a good over all Kung Fu training program, but alone, they are little more than good cardio/muscle memory training. They will never do anything more than give you the ability to beat someone whos poorly conditioned. Then, it's only a win due to superior athletic ability. A skilled fighter will win out over a forms guy everytime.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Yeah, but it's all about context. Jim Brown certainly wouldn't have averaged 5.4 yards/carry against players like Ray Lewis, but in his day, with his talent, and his training, he was cock of the walk. No one disputes he was great, in fact, people still argue he was the greatest despite not going up against Ray Lewis. Why bust the chops of a fighter from generations past or fault him for not having the advantages of current fighters?

I'm not busting his chops for being a fighter from back in the day. more power to him, and to the above mentioned athletes. I agree that they were great. I was just agreeing with what RD said.

WhaI would dispute is the story in general. solo forms practice doesn't make you a fighter. And watching others do the forms and trying to learn them on your own certainly does not. Either that story was a myth, or all of those guys sucked.

I agree with NP too - I've heard that same story several times before

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
I think most athletes of yesteryear would get smoked by those of today though, from bodybuilding, to running to MA.

Reply]
This may be true in many arenas, but in this case I think it's mostly to do with the fact that practice of forms alone CANNOT make a fighter. The ancient Kung Fu fighters knew this, so they fought to build thier skills. The legands are full of stories like this. Forms only, is a relatively modern thing, maybe in the last 80 years or so.

I'm living proof. During times I have done lots, and lots of sparring and two man work, I could fight rather well. Then during times I had noone, and just did forms, I actually lost fighting abiltity, that was ONLY restored by...................you guessed it..........sparring again.

Now that all I really do is some Qigong a coupe of times a week, I probably can't do either. WD's gonna kill me this spring. :(

The point is this, we get good at what we do. Yes forms are PART of a good over all Kung Fu training program, but alone, they are little more than good cardio/muscle memory training. They will never do anything more than give you the ability to beat someone whos poorly conditioned. Then, it's only a win due to superior athletic ability. A skilled fighter will win out over a forms guy everytime.

I would attribute it to more than that. With the advances we have today in terms of training, recovery, etc. a fighter of today has definite advantages. If a master of yesterday entered the ring with a pro of today, I'd bet on the pro in most cases.

[norther practitioner]

One other word I'd like to throw in there...


Diet

A lot of these guys go to diet specialists now a days.. makes a difference. I remember losing 6 lbs of pure fat when I gave up a few things for a couple of weeks after talking to a friend who was a dietician..

I can only imagine how crappy of a diet some of the fighters of years past ate.

[Royal Dragon]

Ok, your right about the recovery thing especially.

Back in ancient times Chinese masters taught that you should apply your self 70%, every day of your life.

Today we are taught to apply ourselves closer to 100%, but take recovery days. This method does seem to build the body in less time, and on the recovery days you can do skill work, so it's more efficient in my opinion.

[backbreaker]

I read on a taiji site that when chen fake was a teenager he had a painful lump in his abdomen and he trained diligently in taiji and healed it. I have to go with past masters, due to the multitude of variations of techniques of using footwork like pushing off in the opposite way you're going, and sometimes redirections in different directions at long distance, circular footwork at close distance, sudden changes at close distance, as well as plain striking with the hip and back at close striking distance(or shoulder or elbow), and qinna( such as going up then down, or left then right) with throws, sweeps and such, and just being able to twist and turn in any direction going high on the opponent and putting structure down on him . I really don't know though, and never really will.

[SevenStar]

bb, you didn't list anything that a thai boxer doesn't do, other than locks and thows - judoka do those, and move the same way. There is no technique advantage...

[backbreaker]

Ah, you're right. There isn't, I see now. Being able to turn from side to side freely pushing off each leg first moving the opponent, returning the opponents force, lead him into nothing maintaing center, following his movement to change, squezing inward effortlessly, and keeping control of where you move the opponents center using your whole body, are all impotant in qinna. The way I see it, and that's just me an expert in nothing, I think there just may be a an advantage in the hip striking and turning the hips and waist, the difference I think being that all parts move seperately but togethe either catching or crushing( or compromising) the opponents structure

[SevenStar]

yeah, sounds like good judo. Not sure what you mean about hip striking though - can you clarify?

[backbreaker]

I just mean turning sideways step in and hit their hip or body with your hip using there forward direction to send it back to them, and it could be used I think in combination with the back or back of shoulder hitting, or other techniques, and shifting the weight of the legs but could be in any direction, the leg of the hitting hip should be connected to the ground or more acuratly sinking downwards . If you can sink back down onto each leg, from left to right , right to leg its good in taiji, if you can't sink back onto the leg( with would slide the opponent back skidding on the floor) then you need to find some way

[stimulant]

Sorry for the late reply boys and girls...but I can reply from home for some technical unknown reason!

as regard to Hou Yuan Jia

I would love to see him fight today.....

but dont know if he would be good, or if he would get beat...

Although the caliber of fighter today is amazing and they have good foundations in all aspects of fighting...

we should look at a few fcats about Hou Yuan Jia...

a) he was never (recorded) beaten

b) he accepted and beat all challenges, even in bad health

c) he not only beat fellow chinese kung-fu...but also

1. European bare knuckle prize fighters (these guys were real tuff nuts...often boxing till one was knocked out),
2. Wrestlers,
3. A famous Russian strong man of the time (in fact he beat him and scared him so badly he never returned to china!)
4. A team of japanese fighters (apparently samurai, but I'm not convinced about that because of the date, - late 1800's / very early 1900's).


he beat the each of the japanese fighters 1 after the other (ment ot have been 5 or 6...differes depending on the source). The problem with the japanese fights story is the differences in stories...one saud after he beat them they attacked him at once and he beat tham all (during his hey day he is rumoured to have beat more than one person at a tiem on several occasions), the other story sayd he was to ill to fight them at this time and his top student beat them one after the other and then all at once.


dispite the differences in stories, whatever the truth...he had, and ha sa formidable reputation...and for good reason. I would love to see him in his prime fighting in todays competitions. He fought people specialising in all types of styles (striking, throwing and locking / ground work, and stength)...and beat them all.


aside from him...as I mentioned in an earlier post...my shifu's father more than once beat over 2 japanese soldier at the same time...and they were armed with guns.


Back to the point about single man forms as opposed to two man....I much prefer doing two man, and doing applicaiton and techniques...but my limited martial arts (only 18 years) has to bow down to centries of wisdom and fighters who have proved single man training works. It should be noted though that it worked for THEM.....and that doesnt mean it will work for everyone else. It's also worth noting that most of them probably had something that is very rare in the west....a strong spritual side....like the old cliche of body mind and spirit being one and so on.

:)


I'll be starting another thread (in about 3 mins!) about peoples skill levels...please contribute there if you have time. Thanks people.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by stimulant
Sorry for the late reply boys and girls...but I can reply from home for some technical unknown reason!

as regard to Hou Yuan Jia

I would love to see him fight today.....

but dont know if he would be good, or if he would get beat...

Although the caliber of fighter today is amazing and they have good foundations in all aspects of fighting...

we should look at a few fcats about Hou Yuan Jia...

a) he was never (recorded) beaten

b) he accepted and beat all challenges, even in bad health

c) he not only beat fellow chinese kung-fu...but also

1. European bare knuckle prize fighters (these guys were real tuff nuts...often boxing till one was knocked out),
2. Wrestlers,
3. A famous Russian strong man of the time (in fact he beat him and scared him so badly he never returned to china!)
4. A team of japanese fighters (apparently samurai, but I'm not convinced about that because of the date, - late 1800's / very early 1900's).


he beat the each of the japanese fighters 1 after the other (ment ot have been 5 or 6...differes depending on the source). The problem with the japanese fights story is the differences in stories...one saud after he beat them they attacked him at once and he beat tham all (during his hey day he is rumoured to have beat more than one person at a tiem on several occasions), the other story sayd he was to ill to fight them at this time and his top student beat them one after the other and then all at once.


dispite the differences in stories, whatever the truth...he had, and ha sa formidable reputation...and for good reason. I would love to see him in his prime fighting in todays competitions. He fought people specialising in all types of styles (striking, throwing and locking / ground work, and stength)...and beat them all.



you said no losses are recorded. Are his wins recorded? where?

[norther practitioner]

you said no losses are recorded. Are his wins recorded? where?

Come on man, don't you know thats how Sherdog got started.

[KC Elbows]

Doing techniques with a partner is good practice.

I don't generally believe in doing long strings of techniques(forms) two man. I know a couple two man sets, but I don't find them useful. Maybe two man iron body sets, but regular forms I think are not efficient. People will fight with what they know, so sparring with a few moves at first, having the partners limited(maybe only hands, no throws, etc) at first allows them to apply those moves until comfortable, which will be sooner for them than if they first learned a two man set, changed it, changed it again, then made it freestyle, imo.

[stimulant]

Huo Yuan Jia had a fierce reputation as a fighter....during a time when the chinese were known as 'the sick men of asia' he was beating some of the worlds finiest fighters of that time.

There is no exact record of his wins, but he was written about on several occasions in 'The Times' news paper of london, and also on at least 1 occassion in a moscow news paper.

I've been in contact with 'The times news paper and their achives search service only go back to the 1980's!!! Meaniong one day I'll have to get off my butt and get permission to use the British library and serch there!!!

[dezhen2001]

joedoe: would be interested to see some more on the forms and such next time i hit your fair shores :) I also have a buddy who trains in okinawa te as well who is interested in hooking up with me, jon etc. Could be interesting to see those skills too (dont worry he doesnt say its ngo chor :D)

take it easy,
dawood

[Royal Dragon]

Sorry guy, no way a "Forms" guy could have done all the things you say. He fought, and probably fought hard and long to get that good. It's the ONLY way. Those claiming he did only forms are lying.

You can't get good at a skill, by NOT doing it.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by dezhen2001
joedoe: would be interested to see some more on the forms and such next time i hit your fair shores :) I also have a buddy who trains in okinawa te as well who is interested in hooking up with me, jon etc. Could be interesting to see those skills too (dont worry he doesnt say its ngo chor :D)

take it easy,
dawood

Dawood: Sounds good. I am looking forward to your next visit, and interested in meeting your friend who trains in Okinawa te.