JMA vs CMA hand conditioning

[SevenStar]

compare and contrast...

[Nevermind]

There was an article in TKD Times (used to read it back in my TKD days) where a high ranking TKD black belt did an experiment. He used the Japanese method of striking the makiwara for his left hand. With the right, he used the Chinese Iron Palm method. His conclusion was that the Chinese method minimized long term injury and was virtually painless. Much of this was due to the application of Dit Da Jow liniment before, during, and after the practice.

When both hands were held side by side in a photo, the Japanese/Korean conditioned hand was pretty bruised and caloused. Whereas the Chinese conditioned hand had no visible markings. He says the only change in the Iron Palm hand was that the hand grew larger. I read this article way before I started Iron Palm. After a year of training, I can say that I have no pain, calouses, or bruising. I never used the Japanese method, so I can't say which is better. But, in my experience, the Chinese method seems to be working just fine.

[MonkeySlap Too]

The JMA method is fine if your life span is only 30 years, and you need to fight right away.

The CMA way can be fast - if you are young, but needs to be extended over greater time as you age.

The CMA conditioning methods are one of the unique treasures of CMA, and come with an astounding variety of technical variations.

[Vash]

OMA and JMA hand conditioning is good for quick-results stuff, but can lead to permanent deformation. There is more to it, htough, than just makiwara striking. There are also numerous types of pushups, including knuckle pushups, fingertip pushups, claw-hand pushups, and back-of-the-hand pushups. There is also supposed to be a massage technique, plus some types of soak, which are supposed to accompany this training. That accounts for non-NeoTraditional Karate training.

CMA stuff looks awesome. If I were to do any type of hand conditioning, it would be Iron Palm. My family gets arthritis way to easy for me to want to break any more knuckels. I'm already gonna have arthritis in my right wrist because of a bad board break demo (stupid kids making noises whilst I try to impress them!).

Personally, I just stick to bagwork/padwork for whatever hand conditioning I do.

[blooming lotus]

what about incorperperating varied strikes into gravel??what do you think? I'm just about as in a couple of days, about to take a contract out in Zhengzhou so haven't quite started yet....what do you think?????? yes Vash...you too :p

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
what about incorperperating varied strikes into gravel??what do you think? I'm just about as in a couple of days, about to take a contract out in Zhengzhou so haven't quite started yet....what do you think?????? yes Vash...you too :p

Don't start with gravel. There's a process - that's likely why the chinese method leaves no disfigurement. start with mung beans.

[SevenStar]

Does anyone know why the japanese take the approach that they take?

[Chinwoo-er]

Actually, I know of several forms of side effects for CMA. Although they are normally unique cases, they exist none the less.

It is to my understanding that quite a few of CMA people of the old days had trouble with common day to day routines because of forarm training. Things such as writing and other skills that required small finger skills were often hard to accomplish. This is especially true with eagle claw artists what trains their wrist and fingers extensively.

I once read an article about this, but can't remember the content of it. It was quite a few years ago.



Seven star, my guess is that they were under the idea of "if you are going to train to punch something, you might as well actually punch something" as well as the "we can't have soft hands, so punching hard things will make your fist tougher"

[rogue]

What no mention of the CMA master that wears the white gloves? That guy has frog eyes on almost every knuckle.

Not all karateka conditioned their hands that way. For example karate master Shigeru Egami.

A makiwara is considered an essential instrument for karate training.

For many years I thought of the makiwara as my lifelong companion. I trained dilligently with it for 24 years. No matter what the circumstance, I never missed a single day of training with it. Even on my trips I took a makiwara with me, for without this exercise I felt bad. But as I advanced, my way of thinking changed. I started to progressively distance myself from the makiwara finding it of little use, later on I found this exercise had no use whatsoever and today I think makiwara training is destructive for karate.

One autumn day, when I was about 20 years old, standing in front of a chestnut tree, I thought to myself: "Could I make all the chestnuts fall down with one blow at the tree trunk?" I scratched the bark a bit to facilitate the fist's contact, then I hit it with all my might. With a small sound only a few chestnuts fell as if to console me. I was very far from having made them all fall down. Furthermore my fist immediately became swollen, so much I began questioning myself if I might have really broken something. After this experience I obtained a very solid fist and could break boards and tiles but I never really obtained a total trust on my blow's effectivity...

I many times found people with calloused fists due to makiwara training, where the first knuckles were covered with a black thick hard covering as a heel. They were terrible hands to look at but when I asked them to hit me, their blows were not effective. These experiences made me distrust the makiwara. Deep inside I thought that my blows were not as those of other people and I continued to search for different ways to hit confronting a series of difficulties. In the course of this search I forced myself to change the way I made the fist and ended transforming it completely. My conclusion was as follows: to obtain an effective tsuki, you must not hit as normally taught, you must change the fist's form. If you put your fist in this effective form, you can no longer practice makiwara. This is why I abandoned makiwara training completely. This was in 1958. Continuing with my research I furthermore understood that makiwara training is not only ineffective but actually bad for the health. This is evident when you study a bit of acupuncture or shiatsu.

I do use a big bucket of sand for spear hand training.

[Merryprankster]

In JMA, they eat their bread butter side down.

In CMA, they eat it butter side up.

[rogue]

And the Gracies eat their eggs from the little end
while Machados eat theirs from the big end.:D

[Chinwoo-er]

This is around the time I slowly backs away from this thread....




~backs away towards the exist. Slowly~

[Vash]

I'm kind of against any kind of violent hand conditioning. What I've seen of certain basic hand conditioning exercises in Iron Palm look cool. I abhore the makiwara. I abhore starting out with gravel.

I'd say 7* knows what the fug he's talking about.

In a different thread, EvolutionFist said his old Isshinryu instructor used to climb to the top of a ladder, then cause it to fall so's he'd bang down on his knuckles. This too I would advise against.

The hand is magnificent machine. The destructive force of "coditioning" without proper medicinal care is dangerous, to say the least.

As I said before, I like hitting the heavy bag. I also do some
Classical Okinawan weight training (http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/012/004/index.html) using some big @$$ vases I got at Home Depot, some locks (http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/012/002/index.html) I'm probably going to order from KF/TC Magazine pretty soon.

[IronFist]

This website gives some instruction for both Japanese and Chinese methods (http://www.karatebreaking.com/).

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Chinwoo-er
Actually, I know of several forms of side effects for CMA. Although they are normally unique cases, they exist none the less.

It is to my understanding that quite a few of CMA people of the old days had trouble with common day to day routines because of forarm training. Things such as writing and other skills that required small finger skills were often hard to accomplish. This is especially true with eagle claw artists what trains their wrist and fingers extensively.

I once read an article about this, but can't remember the content of it. It was quite a few years ago."

omg...I didn't even consider that...very good point...hell, I teach english and am leaving in few days for Zhengzhou.....do you think a good dit dar would cover me? I can't not teach, and it's taining I'm going for?????? Well, if a jou doesn't help..guess I'll have to grin and bear it ha...I'm sure i'm not the first

[monkeyboxing]

Originally posted by Vash
I'm kind of against any kind of violent hand conditioning. What I've seen of certain basic hand conditioning exercises in Iron Palm look cool. I abhore the makiwara. I abhore starting out with gravel.

I'd say 7* knows what the fug he's talking about.

In a different thread, EvolutionFist said his old Isshinryu instructor used to climb to the top of a ladder, then cause it to fall so's he'd bang down on his knuckles. This too I would advise against.

The hand is magnificent machine. The destructive force of "coditioning" without proper medicinal care is dangerous, to say the least.

As I said before, I like hitting the heavy bag. I also do some
Classical Okinawan weight training (http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/012/004/index.html) using some big @$$ vases I got at Home Depot, some locks (http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/012/002/index.html) I'm probably going to order from KF/TC Magazine pretty soon.

Why would you train with vases instead of dumbells or kettlebells?

[Mr Punch]

Hmm, wing chun uses a wallbag, which is more like a makiwara than iron palm, and a wooden dummy, which is more like a big-ass piece of wood than anything... but I've never met a wing chun geezer with callouses......

wanders off, dumb question in hand, to the wing chun forum to inadvertantly start a lineage war about wall bags...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by monkeyboxing


Why would you train with vases instead of dumbells or kettlebells?

because the vase also works grip strength.

[Vash]

Originally posted by monkeyboxing


Why would you train with vases instead of dumbells or kettlebells?

What Sevenstar said. However, I do train with free weights, in addition to the more classical karate conditioning methods (tanren (http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/012/index.html) ). I love weight training with a passion.

Makiwara suxors, though.

[Stranger]

Kettlebells work the grip as well. The handles are thicker than dumbbell handles, which require a tighter squeeze in the grip to keep the KB from dropping.

[Vash]

Indeed. Still, I like the vases, especially since I can change the weight whenever my workout necessitates. Plus, they allow for a grip training with the hand much wider, which is cool.