Old video footage of fight between Kung fu masters

[DragonzRage]

http://www.memphisclubscene.com/NgvsChan.WMV

This is apparently a full contact match between Wu Gong Yi (grandmaster of wu style tai chi) and another rreknowned master from the White Crane kung fu system. If these guys were as highly reputable in the kung fu world as I have been led to believe, then I guess this should be representative of the fighting skills honed through traditional kung fu training. I don't know how many of you kung fu people have seen this, but I thought I'd submit it for discussion.

[jbmmaster]

WOW thats the first time ive ever seen an actual fight between two kungfu masters. Good one DragonzRage.

However I felt that that was a poor fight. Aren't they suppose to show there fighting styles? instead of throwing a few slaps every once in a while and a kick. I mean whats up with that!

[Chin Chung Cao]

I hate to say it, but thats some of the worst fighting I've seen. They both look like contestant's in a "Tough Man" competition. If they are "master's" of their respective system's then they wasted a lot of year's spendind time traing one way, only to throw it out the window when fighting. I hope that people dont judge all Chinese Art's by this sad display.

[tjmitch]

That was awful. Niether of those guys has been in a real fight in thier entire lives. Anyone with no martial arts training at all , but who had been in at least one real fight could walk up , grab either of those guys by the front of thier shirt and ***** slap them.

[dodger87]

either this is one of the sloppiest fights or if they are truly kung fu masters they might be using techniques way beyond our level of skill so we can't really understand what they are doing, for eg. some pro chinese chess players can play the simplest move and for amateurs they might not even know what the hell is going on and think that the pro is doing something stupid. but i kinda doubt it, the fight seems like ****.

[Mika]

These guys are not real masters, although that depends on the definition of the word master. But definitely not even close to some masters I have seen.

BJJ guys, this canNOT be used against CMA...;)

Why did the clip have sound effects? Makes you think...

But still kewl to dig this up, DragonzRage :)

//mika

[Dim Wit Mak]

Dragonszrage: Thanks for the great footage. I really try hard not to disrespect anyone's style. Maybe I am missing something here, but it seems to me that there are a whole bunch of guys who contribute to this forum who could have beaten either one of these individuals. The technical problems I saw in their techniques are too numerous to mention. At any rate, I am critical by nature, and am trying hard to not be such a know it all A_ _
H _ _ e.

[jun_erh]

parts of it are best if viewed full screen. This has been discussed at length in the internal forum but first time I've actually watched. What's interesting is the tai chi guy seems more the aggressor. Wild

[SifuAbel]

Not this stupid video, AGAIN !!!!!!!!!

Lord almighty, don't tell me some of you have never seen this? This clip has been circulating for ten years. The CMA community laughed at it.

[red5angel]

some people have this tendancy to believe that because one calls themselves a master or claims to have mastered a system that makes them a good fighter in general. I've met a few "masters" I'd be afraid to fight, and many more I wouldn't.

[mickey]

Greetings All,

I have seen this one before. Take another look at this fight from an attributes perspective; people learn styles to augment/cover certain strong/weak points. If you look closely you will notice that Chan Hok Fu is farsighted and Wu Gong Yi is nearsighted. Chan Hok Fu was better at long range and Wu Gong Yi was better at short range.

mickey

[DragonzRage]

I wanted to see what you all in the CMA side of things thought. Thanx for all the input. Now before i put in my two cents let me just say first off that it is not my intention to say anything inflammatory or disrespectful about anyone's style...nor do I wish to make a blanket judgment on all traditional kung fu thru what I saw in this *ahem* fight.

That being said, whatever type of training those two masters' styles used at that point in time seems sorely lacking in many regards. I wouldn't say this based on just any two random practitioners duking it out, but at least from what I understand, both these guys were very well respected and legitimate in their styles. But then again I'm by no means an expert in tracing kung fu lineage. I'm just taking what I've read at face value. Perhaps those of you who are more familiar with lineage can tell me whether or not these guys really were highly ranked. But in any case, my point is that I would not critique Bjj's training based on some random nobody instructor, but I would definitely base some judgments of Bjj on the skills of a highly ranked master like Helio and Rickson Gracie. I would not judge American Kenpo based on any McDojo instructor, but i would certainly make some generalizations about it if I saw Grandmaster Ed Parker fight.

Now, under the assumption that Wu Gong Yi was the legit grandmaster in Wu Style Tai Chi at the time, and that the other guy was a legit and respected master of the White Crane style, I am going to make some hypotheses regarding the traditional training of their systems. i am also partially basing these observations on what I know about traditional kung fu training in general.

1) Their training probably did not hone a high level of athleticism. Neither of them move in a fashion that would indicate that they know how to control their body mechanics in an efficient way. Their movements are neither explosive, agile, nor powerful.

2) The movements taught in their styles (or to be fair, the incarnation of their styles at that environment and point in time) are probably unnatural and inefficient for a real fighting situation. I bet that either one of these guys could've busted out in a form and looked very graceful in the movements of their style. But since those movements are inefficient in the context of a real fight, you see both of them reverting to their natural instincts of combative body movement (hence they look just like anyone who has had no real training in how to fight). This leads me to my next point.

3) Whatever training they had experienced, it is disturbingly obvious that none of it related well at all to functional freestyle h2h combat. Perhaps the White Crane guy's techniques flowed well in a light contact, non-power play fighting situation with other pracitioners of his system, but obviously when his opponent is going full force for the knockout and doesn't move like a White Crane guy, most all of it went out the window. Likewise for the tai chi guy, who might've been very sensitive and skilled in the tai chi push hands game (or whatever other kind of free flow training drill his method has) but found that game inadaptable to the context of a real brawl. i doubt either one of these guys had any real fights before this, nor did they have much experience in live full contact sparring.

4) The assumption that neither one of these practitioners had any real functional fighting experience and did not possess much real fighting ability is supported even more when you observe that:
a. their sense of distancing and timing to attack and defend is very primitive.
b. the body mechanics that they use behind their attacks are ineffective in that both of them land some shots, but none of them seem to do any significant damage. Actually this also has to do with their sense of timing on when to set up their attacks.
c. considering CMA's wide repertoire of intended weapons (punching, kicking, throws/sweeps, joint manipulation, etc) somehow this fight ended up looking like a playground boxing match between two untrained children, except these two tried to low kick each other once or twice.

To summarize, these two guys displayed very low standards of physical ability/athleticism, and absolutely no functional h2h fighting skills beyond the instincts given them by nature, and very general and primitive knowledge of how to extend your arm to punch an opponent. Of course you would have to make allowances for the fact that these two probably were not young, strong, and in their prime. But even that cannot excuse a complete lack of functional ability from two supposed experts in unarmed combat arts. However you want to classify their training methods, as an MA'ist and a competitive fighter, I certainly would not want any part of their training methodology.

Just an analysis. Take it for what its worth. Oh, and just so you guys know, I have seen some footage in the past of CMA guys fighting better than these guys. If I knew a link to a video like that, I would've posted it as well.

[SevenStar]

I posted that about a month ago - out of curiousity, where did you find the link? I meant to delete that vid off my server and forgot.

[SevenStar]

http://martial.best.vwh.net/forum/showthread.php?threadid=27361&highlight=CMA+fight+clip

[DragonzRage]

oh so I guess this is definitely not new to you guys. My apologies. I didn't mean to kick a dead horse. If I viewed this forum more regularly I would've known the clip had been posted before, and I wouldn't have wasted time posting again. Anyway, I very rarely come across full contact fight footage between well known traditional kung fu experts, so I found it interesting and I thought I'd share.

[Musicalkatachmp]

I'm sick of all the bashing people do on the 'net from behind their computers...

At least they did fight...

but lets assume their fighting technique does totally suck (which I am not saying it does)...even if we say their techniques are bad, who knows maybe they both have iron chins and could beat any one of us in a fight.

And you're never going to be able to please everybody...people saw clips of Pride fighting a couple months ago and criticized the way the guys were fighting...my point is you can be a great fighter and some people will still see your clips and say you look bad...so whats the point of criticizing people? Its just internet warriors blowing smoke out their @$$...

[Dim Wit Mak]

DragonsRage: Don't stop posting stuff you find interesting. Anyone who doesn't like something has the right to click on something else. I spend some time at the keyboard, but I have a life other than forums, and miss quite a bit of talk and video clips. There are young martial artists and newbies who haven't seen things that they might find interesting. It's good for people to see martial arts that are done well and not so well done. They can both be used as teaching tools. I found your analysis well thought out and articulately expressed.

My only other thought on this "fight" is this rhetorical observation.
Why spend years of time and lots of money on training in a system if a person is going to revert to base instincts when a real combat situation occurs? The answer that pops in my mind is this. If a person wants to learn forms for exercise or just to go through movements, then I am all for it. A person can spend his time and money as he chooses. If the motive is effective self defense, then it is a big waste of time, because if these techniques were effective, they would be used in combat.

[DragonzRage]

sevenstar,
I found the link on a military/law enforcement forum's h2h fighting section.

musicalkatachmp,
"I'm sick of all the bashing people do on the 'net from behind their computers..."
-Like I said before, I'm not trying to bash anything or anyone. As a martial artist and an intellectual i see nothing wrong with analyzing a fight. For the purpose of open discussion, i will call things as I see them and explain the reasoning behind my views. I am open to any other informed and thought out arguments.
"At least they did fight..."
-And so do I. As a competitor, I know firsthand how hard it can be to take yourself out of the comfort zone of your own gym/school and actually train to be able to step into a strange ring and go ballz out. Knowing what its like to train intensely for a long period of time in preparation, to have the reputation of your gym on your shoulders in front of a crowd of people, and to be nauseous with anxiety before a fight, I would definitely give these masters all the credit in the world for having the courage to put it on the line and fight for real, especially for a charitable cause. But that doesn't mean that I won't be objective about their skill level when I'm studying their fight to learn more.
"even if we say their techniques are bad, who knows maybe they both have iron chins and could beat any one of us in a fight."
-All I can say is that if you really entertain that possibility then you are either in denial, or you simply have no understanding whatsoever of the science of hand to hand combat.
"And you're never going to be able to please everybody...people saw clips of Pride fighting a couple months ago and criticized the way the guys were fighting...my point is you can be a great fighter and some people will still see your clips and say you look bad"
-Real fighting is often very ugly. Plain and simple. A real fight doesn't look like Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon. When you look at an old UFC and watch Royce Gracie effortlessly control and choke out big tough bruisers twice his size, or watch Crocop knock guys out in swift combinations of strikes in any recent Pride event, it doesn't look pretty most of the time. But it is for **** sure effective. Watching a fight is not like watching a play, or a music concert. It is not about "pleasing everybody". You don't judge technique based on artistic/asthetic tastes. You judge it based on effectiveness and efficiency.
"so whats the point of criticizing people? Its just internet warriors blowing smoke out their @$$..."
-the point is that I'm trying to analyze and learn more as a martial artist. And while I am no Pride champion, I am for **** sure not an internet warrior. So please don't imply that I'm one or you'll risk hurting my feelings.

Dim Wit Mak,
"It's good for people to see martial arts that are done well and not so well done. They can both be used as teaching tools."
-I couldn't agree with you more, sir
:)

[dodger87]

yeah it was cool of you to post this fight on here. i've never seen it before and it was interesting seeing a fight from 50+ years ago.

[Musicalkatachmp]

"even if we say their techniques are bad, who knows maybe they both have iron chins and could beat any one of us in a fight."


All I can say is that if you really entertain that possibility then you are either in denial, or you simply have no understanding whatsoever of the science of hand to hand combat

OK, I'm not really concerned with the science of hand to hand combat, so you can say that...

I've seen this clip posted on a couple forums many times, and it usually seems like the person posting it already has his mind made up about it and wants to bash somebody for fun...

I argued for a couple of weeks once with the Wahnam guys because they said a sparring tape looked like crap when I thought it was very good...so that took what patience I had for listening to people criticize clips...if you really posted it to discuss it then fine, we can discuss it. In fact I am going to try to find that other clip to see what you guys think...


I watched the clip you posted with a friend one night, and he pointed out to me several principles one of the fighters was using and I forget exactly what they were but at the time I did understand. After that, I didn't think the clip was so bad. I'll ask him what it was...

[Musicalkatachmp]

it was interesting seeing a fight from 50+ years ago.

That is true...

[KWUsCRD]

Thanks for the video.

[PHILBERT]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
Not this stupid video, AGAIN !!!!!!!!!

Lord almighty, don't tell me some of you have never seen this? This clip has been circulating for ten years. The CMA community laughed at it.

Along with every other community. Martial or not. Heck Im sure the thread and needle community laughed.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by DragonzRage
sevenstar,
I found the link on a military/law enforcement forum's h2h fighting section.


Cool. I guess I won't delete it if people are out there looking at it.

[red5angel]

At least they did fight...

Sure, and to some degree I can respect that but it doesn't mean that they fight well. I've seen the video before and here is my take on it, being "pro" CMA.
They're supposed to be masters, but they fight like sissies. There could be some reason why their form sucked, their technique delivery sucked and over all their fighting was sloppier then normal and what not. However, from what I understand these two guys call themselves masters and that is what I have issue with. I have met plenty of people who would have made quick work of those guys and who aren't anywhere near calling themselves masters. If you want to call yourself master and want to claim to have mastered fighting - since that is what a martial artist claiming to be a master is to me - then you had better be able to fight and fight well.
If you know a system inside and out, can even teach it really well and build great fighters, your not a master in my view, your a sifu, a teacher.

[Musicalkatachmp]

Bmore...do you remember what you told me when we watched this clip? Would you mind explaining it here?

[sakko]

Hmm.. I watched the first minute or two.. were they defending at all? I didn't really see any blocking :( maybe I'm too inexperienced to see though, I dunno...

[Pork Chop]

lkfmdc will probably kill me if i screew this up but basically all i said wuz:

the skinny dude looks like he's trying to do some long bridging and trying to throw some trademark tibetan white crane long arm punches, even managing to combo up and land a few- but he seemed too timid to actually sit down on them and put some body behind them.

the old dude hardly looks like he's doing wu style, but then wu style (either one) is probably the style of taichi i have the least exposure to. he really just looks like a ticked off old dude who's trying to slug it out.

basically I give kudos to the young'n for trying to use some technique, but being intimidated by a larger, older, obviously more motivated opponent.

FYI- I have a shorter clip of this at the beginning of the movie "Rivals of the Dragon". It's not as linear, but it's closer to the action so you can see their faces & bodies better; plus it goes through some of the moves slow-mo.

[stimulant]

its nice to see....made me more thankful i'm learning from a TCMA master who can fight using his kung-fu....!

[SevenStar]

got any clips we can see?

[DragonzRage]

Yeah I noticed the white crane guy did visibly try to employ some of those long arm swinging strikes that you see in some kung fu styles. But he still did a very poor job of applying them effectively.

From what i know of tai chi's fighting applications, I saw nothing remotely tai chi from the wu guy. i did a little more research on this fight. From what I was able to dig up, the two guys were indeed very established and reputable masters within their styles. Both of them were pretty high up on the pecking order. If I was a practitioner of either one of their styles, I would find this rather disturbing. It was ridiculous how the fight was described on certain tai chi and white crane sites. I read it referred to as "an epic battle" and "a life and death match that awed thousands of spectators" among other things. One wu tai chi site praised the skills of wu gong yi by saying that the white crane master he fought was a much younger and stronger man known for being a deadly fighter. It then goes on to say that altho the fight was declared a draw, it was only stopped to prevent a fatality. Apparently, wu had inflicted such massive damage using his tai chi technique that the white crane master's face was bleeding uncontrollably.
GEEZ, I wonder if the people who wrote this stuff have ever even seen the video of this fight.

[dodger87]

you never know. they did land lots of hits... :)

[KC Elbows]

My opinion, nothing more...

Neither fighter seemed comfortable in real combat, and neither fighter seemed able to mount a truly useful offensive. I've heard people touting one hit one guy takes to the head as a show of toughness- but really, hits to the head happen, one in a whole fight is not noteworthy.

It's hard to judge the style off of a clip where the practitioners are too dogged down with issues of dealing with aggresiveness, issuing aggresiveness, and distance and timing. I suspect you'd get the same response from training a boxer how to jab, hook, slip, uppercut, bob & weave, but never actually having him spar or fight as part of a comprehensive training regimen.

I just don't think those guys have any real fight experience. I don't care what principles they were trying to implement- they were visibly uncomfortable fighting or using aggression. I don't see how that's even arguable, that's what the clip I watched showed.

I'm not dissing their knowledge at all. They may have been fonts of martial knowledge. I'm just saying that they weren't fighters. I've known great fighters who learned what they know from guys probably no better able to fight than that. The difference is, the great fighters were able to bridge the gap between academic knowledge and real application. To each their own.

The titles are sometimes honorary, sometimes relate to intellectual contribution to the art(or artistic), and sometimes are due to fighting ability, or even combinations of the three. As such, there's gonna be some people who understand their art from an artistic or intellectual level, but don't have the capacity for violence needed to really fight. I'd say that's the case in this vid.

I'm sure I'll get flack on this from both sides. On the one hand, I am another TMA'ist saying "this vid isn't indicative of what I do", because it isn't, because being comfortable fighting is important to my training. On the flip side, I'm "dogging" two titled practitioners of kung fu. But I'm old enough to know people with those titles from China who I could utterly destroy, and I know I'm not special, and I know its because they are less comfortable really fighting than I am.

Good thread, dude.

[Musicalkatachmp]

the skinny dude looks like he's trying to do some long bridging and trying to throw some trademark tibetan white crane long arm punches, even managing to combo up and land a few- but he seemed too timid to actually sit down on them and put some body behind them.

Yeah!

JK actually yes watching it again I thought I saw that stuff too...but I haven't studied Wu Style Tai Chi or and Crane styles...

It looked like there might have been some blood on the white crane guys shirt but it was hard to tell bc the video is old and B/W

and if indeed the crane stylist is trying to employ kung fu techniques...it looks like he is trying a lot harder than most people I know...and hes doing it when a lot is at stake (fighting in front of many people) not just in the kwoon...

BTW did you guys see that Ric Flair chop wooooo

[Pork Chop]

I think that's a fair estimation KC.

Technique wise they may have known what they were doing.

Experience wise, in front of an audience like that, they definitely looked like they didn't have much.

Like MKC said, props to the youngin for actually tryin some stuff.