Dummy height

[Phil Redmond]

Well, I've learned for 3 of my WC sifus that if you out stretch your arms in front of you parallel to the floor the arms should be at that level. In some schools where there was only on dummy we had floor boards available to place one on top of the other to get to that height for the shorter people in the kwoon.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Hey Phil...What's up !

Not that I should talk - because currently my dummy's height is too low according to the standard I'm about to recommend...

but here goes...I'm of the opinion that the best height for the dummy in today's world would be to simulate a man standing 6' tall.

Just for practical purposes - since so many people these days go at least that height.

[Mr Punch]

I've been told the same thing as you Phil, but I like to practise with a very low stance so that makes a difference!! ;)

The height of ours was adjustable with pegs, which negates the need for planks... unless you want to put your short beginners through their paces with balancing tricks!!! :D

Personally, I like mine with the head at 7'6" in case I get into a fight with a rogue NBA player... :D

[curtis]

Good morning Phil
I was taught two different ways. The first I prefer, the second is what I understand to be more traditional.
I was taught that the dummy should be a personal training aid , The arms should be at shoulder height .
The reasoning for this height was to in force the protection of the upper perimeter , with the understanding that most people will be attacking this area.
A friend of mine, explained to me that the dummy's upper arms height should be at heart level.
He explained the reasoning was that most of the forms in Wing Chun are designed to protect that level .(He goes on to explain, and that for a man , the arm height should be on the nipple lines .)
I cannot argue with the logic.
Although I find,if the arm height is too high, it is much harder to perform the Sao. But realistically there's very little difference, approximately 3 inches difference (for myself between these two concepts) .
Then again you must realize the dummy's height will change for each individual. Which brings up a whole different topic.
Is one dummy supposed to fit all people?
I still believe, that the mook jong should be a personal training aid, and not one size fits all.
But that is just my opinion .
Sincerely yours. C.A.G.

[Phil Redmond]

Hi Curtis,
Yup the dummy should be personalized for the individual. I also agree on the shoulder/out stretched arms height.

Victor,
A higher dummy could be helpful to train against taller opponents but remember, they have to punch down to the level of the shorter person. ;-)
An example with regards to TWC is that we want the bend of the wrist to be at nose height during a tan sau to cover the head, so in OUR dummy form the height I mentioned promotes that teaching.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Upper arms/Nipple area!

Lower arm/Belly Button area!



Check out Hendrik's Stretch/Send thread.



See ya,

[Phil Redmond]

Hi Jim,
I respect the fact that's probably good for some lineages. I can't speak for all of WC but my lineage differs on that point.

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Phil,


Hi Jim,
I respect the fact that's probably good for some lineages. I can't speak for all of WC but my lineage differs on that point.


Nobody said it was for all lineages. What I write is based on Leung Jan's Koo Lo vilage teaching and is for his/our art.


We should discuss the purposes for the height variations for each art?

What good does a higher Jong give us?

What good does a lower Jong give us?

How does it effect our Kung Fu?


Regards,

[Phenix]

Train in hang high jong for agile and light kung.

Train in solid ground mount low jong for power and energy manuval-- such as fa jing. where the medirians qi sinking.....

[yuanfen]

FWIW FYI- very similar to Jim R's post.
My jong's upper arms points are set at bout male nipple level.
Appropriate equivalent for females. The main point is that it is
on horizontal mid chest level. The lower arm is at the belly button level. (in yee gee keem yeung ma). The bend of the leg is at my knee level.
I have seen lots of variations. I believe that IM in passing said that the first HK dummy that wa built for him was a bit too high.
But given that his foundation was already built, it mattered less since he could and did adjust.

I am not preaching dogma BTW, To each his own. In my POV- the dummy is NOT really an imaginary opponent- it's your own "other"/shadow/reflection for developing your own motions and energy release-with dummy, its center and appendages as reference points for positioned use of power.. It helps develop structural unity and focus and energy/power into the line. Once you learn on your own dummy-you can adjust to others.

joy chaudhuri

[Jim Roselando]

Joy,


Nice post


See ya,

[PaulH]

From what I understand the dummy is supposed to be your 2nd coach. If what you do on it feel unnatural then it is just plain unnatural! Adjusting the height of the dummy should have this criteria in mind. Hendrik and Joy's advices are excellent!

Regards,
PH

[kj]

FWIW, our preferred dummy height is similar to what Jim R., Joy, and Hendrik in his part "b" illustration describe. We'll still work on one set differently though, as long as it's reasonably within our [individual] operating range.

Regards
- kj

[Mr Punch]

Cheers Phenix.

I often thought about the same thing in my training in general.

I've often heard rumours of whispers of echos of similar theories, but mostly I thought I was just a crackpot with an overractive imagination. Now I know there are two of us: let's jump the rest of 'em!!! :D

I sometimes use these concepts, not to mention associated breathing practice when I use visualization in training.

Thanks everybody else. Good advice.

[Phenix]

Actually, I was told a few things by my sifu late Cho Hong-Choy.

2 i post above,

another 3 are:

Using the Yik kam's salutation's V-shape to set the position of the 3 hands to fit oneself

the angle / distance of the three hands are closer , for fine tuning fighting technics purpose. This is to train "open or scattle" the "close/ concentrate" opponents' structure.

the angle/ distance of the three hands are wider seperate for Power training. this is to train one's technics with power.

[curtis]

I have a question about the dummies height? I am not so much concerned about the actual height, instead I am looking at the position of the practitioner when determining the height.
If I am in the Ma bow (horse stance) , my center balance will be about an inch half lower than it is when I normally standing. So when I am measuring myself for the mook jong, do I stand before it,or do I get into my Ma bow?
It just might be, that we are disagreeing on the same topic. At different points of view. (I doubt it, but you never know!?.)
Sincerely yours. C.A.G.


P.S
Phenix
Thank your veiws, you realy made me think . I will reply when Ive strightened out my thoughts.

[Sam]

Nipple height for upper arms and tan tien height for lower arm. This is done in order for you to have a natural central point to perform your techniques. We try not to reach for an opponent for that weakens your technique. You must adjust to an opponents height and arm/leg length without reaching.

[kj]

Originally posted by Sam
Nipple height for upper arms and tan tien height for lower arm. This is done in order for you to have a natural central point to perform your techniques. We try not to reach for an opponent for that weakens your technique. You must adjust to an opponents height and arm/leg length without reaching.

Same for us, Sam.
- kj

[curtis]

Hello
I am sorry. Perhaps I didnt ask the question clear enough.
ARE YOU in a stance (Mabo?Horse stance) when measureing the height for the dummy,or are you just standing before the Dummy?

You see if you measure the dummy while standing, then lower your center of balance the arms would not be the same height as you explained.(the nipple height would realy be at mid-shoulder height and the lower arm would be around the solar-plexas level)

Curious minds want to know??? ;-) Think about it, before you give a text book anser. What dose it realy mean?And WHY DO you do what you do?

Most of the time knowing WHY is far more inporant than knowing how. Im just asking a question not trying to judge witch is right.

C.A.G.

[kj]

Originally posted by curtis
Hello
I am sorry. Perhaps I didnt ask the question clear enough.
ARE YOU in a stance (Mabo?Horse stance) when measureing the height for the dummy,or are you just standing before the Dummy?


Sunken in training stance.

Regards,
- kj

[curtis]

Thank you.

sincerly. C.A.G.