Thoughts on Qi, Li, and Jing

[mantis108]

Some thoughts on Sifu Cottrells posts, which I find very informative and detail. I have some thoughts which I would like to share:

<<<Tanglang, as I learned it has five internal and five external elements that work together throughout one's training.
Internal Elements: (briefly)

Jing (essence)those energies and attributes you are born with. It can be depleated through poor living practices and should be conserved. >>>

The phonetic "Jing" can represent 2 different concepts in Chinese. One is essence as discuss above, which is conventional explanation. Kai Uwe Pel's definitation is mental level that is different from the conventional thoughts IMHO. Jing can also represent the word power generation as in Fa Jing.

<<<Shen (spirit) mind attitude and more too complex for brief treatment.>>>

It could also be understood as perceptual faculties. Intuition, for example, is one of Shen's functions.

<<<Chi (I think we all got this one)>>>

I think I will address this one later. Shen, Chi/Qi and Jing are essentially the same thing.

<<<Li (physical strength and endurance) can be increased>>>

I would agree with this and I would like to address this later.

<<<Gong (Acquired ability through specialized training) all the aforementioned elements manifest themselves in the development of this one.>>>

Agreed.

<<<Jing/shen is often represented by moral rules of conduct to prevent dissapating one's energies in wasteful activity.>>>

Jing Shen is also a description of the condition a person is in. Hao Jing Shen means someone is in good (perceivable) condition mainly with good emotional state or the person feels physically capable. This is believe to be achievable by observing disciplined life style.

<<<Jing in terms of martial power would be a gong. So would be strength of stance.>>>

this I would like to address later.

<<<These are not levels of training or sophistication of technique. Nor are they represented by different styles of Tanglang. They are present in all. In fact, like the eighteen families, these five internal and external are taught in other styles of Gongfu. In fact, every style of Gongfu has these as they are attributes of Gongfu practitioners.>>>

I agreed with this observation. But at the same time, I have a different view, a different understanding if you will, about the relationships of these things and the relationship between Qi, Li and Jing.

<<<What may be different in different styles is the reilance on hard and soft technique. Qixing is said to be the hardest of the Tanglang styles. Having said that it must also be said that Qixing is not necessarily the most external, (uses the most li/ strength). That is the development of the individual. Hard is not external, soft is not necessarily internal. Practitioners like Adam Hsu, who studied Meihua Tanglang, says that Tanglang can be as internal as any other system, (rely on Qi and Jing (martial power) instead of Li). It is the development of the individual.>>>

I bascially agreed with this in most part. Hard expression or soft expression is indeed a stylistic signature (energy wise) but not necessarily constitute an external or internal art.

<<<High level practitioners of any style will use more Qi/jing (martial power). Low level practitioners will use more Li, (car pushing muscles). >>>

I actually would prefer "aware" instead of "use".

<<<"It is essential to develop all areas of the five internal however as they support each other. Greater Qi means better support for the system that provides oxygen to the muscles enabling one to exercise and develop one's Li. Developing one's Li, for example better muscular endurance, means the fighter can perform tasks using martial power (Jing) for longer periods. Good living to preserve one's overall constitution, (Jing/Shen) and proper martial spirit/ attitude are essential for the fighter.>>>

Kung Fu is a process IMHO. This statement is a good illustration of such process. I would use a different model of explanation, or my understanding if you will, which I would like to share later.

<<<I do not believe that we oppose each other in viewing the essentials of this but we do contrast in how we interpret them.>>>

I think all the elements that we use are presented and similar. Just the interpertations differ from each other's. I will present my understanding in the following post.

Thank you for sharing a very informative and detailed post, Sifu Cottrell.

Warm regards

Robert Hui (Mantis108)

[mantis108]

First off, this is straightly from my own point of view.

I would define the 3 elements this way:

Qi - condition as in the state that we are in. When applied in combat, it would be emotional energy.

Li - physical strength and endurance.

Jing - timed release of energy (or the martial power as Sifu Cottrell said).

Their relationship is that of a triangle forming a window of empowerment instead of a linear progression of levels. This also means that each element is in support of the other two.

Training in PM begins with li or "Shun Jing Zeng Li" but the li (strength) here is that of a sound structural support. That is to say it is build from good stances, good posture, etc... most important of all is to build with relaxation which is quite a paradox. It is not just muscular strength although muscle will develop. This is more like a warm up phase of practice.

Then come learing of techniques and timing of energy release or "Xi Da Ji Gong". Jing unlike li is very explosive and short lived. The difference between a good technician and a novice is the difference of the timing but not necessarily the quantity of techniques. Training forms, drills, 2 men practices including sparring and such things.

Li and Jing simply are the different ends of the power spectrum. They both begin and end (or rather return to) with the original state which we called Qi. The term Qi is used to descibe the formless state of the physical, mental and emotional condition of a person. It is detectable by perception but not quite tangible in physical form. As it is engaged in an event (as work), it either becomes Li or Jing. Sometimes, it is first Li then Jing; other times it's first Jing than Li. The awareness of the process of conservation of energy within the power spectrum (or rather the triangle) and the ability of capitalizing it is what is described as "Ji Gong Er Da Cheng". It involves practices of a category of exercises known as Qigong where most of the internal theories would apply. Iron palm, 18 Lohan and Pai Da of PM are all under this category.

In combat, courage comes from a surge of emotional energy (Qi) and despair comes from a purge or depletion of emotional energy. Ironically, both courage and despair are emotional energy themselves. Winning or losing attitude is determine by the fragile balance of courage and despair. Good phyiscal strength and endurance, timed release of powerful techniques and emotionally charged energy or attitude are the holy trinity of PM system which transcend the boundary of external and internal arts. In other words, PM is the ultimate holistic pugilistic art.

Mantis108

[blooming lotus]

qi = lifeforce/intrinsic energy

Jing = moving qi/energy

Li = stored qi/energy

Xing = mechanism

Gong = skill

do the math :D

[mantis108]

Thank you for sharing. Looking forward for more thoughts.

Mantis108

[Xdr4g0nx]

I think he means that Qi is like the number 0, Li is 100 and Jing is
-100. The number 0 (Qi) is the origin.

[blooming lotus]

good metaphor...

just like
qi is needed for moving qi right (jing)

as qi is neccessary for stored (li=).....

ok qi moving, stored and moving again...zat help???

[mantis108]

First and foremost, this model was developed as a coaching tool for my students to relate their sparring experiences with the theories and the philosophy of our training. The model is meant to be holistic and organic in nature. It also addresses various aspects of our training. Note that I do not use the word level.

As I have briefly touched before, the relationship between the trio is that of a triangle with Qi as the point (top of the triangle). Li (on the left) and Jing (on the right) as the flanking points and they form a line with each other, which can be understood as spectrum of power. We could also say that the spectrum (the scale itself) is Qi. In such case it is more difficult to graspe with the mental picture, so we will leave Qi out of it for the time being. BTW, Qi is there all the time it didn't just disappeared. We omit it for the sake of easier discussion. Also, we could think of Li and Jing as the functions of Qi. So now Li is on the one end and Jing is on the other end. This li-jing spectrum can be further broken down into 4 components - Li (strength/extreme yin), Chi (stemina/moderate yin), Qi (synergy/moderate yang), and Jing (explosive synergy/extreme yang). BTW, this is rather dualistic but we will leave this for now. On the power spectrum, Li is power generation which is mechanical in nature and it implies or rather reflects action/reaction (linear) type of mindset (classic physics realm). Jing is power expression akin to high-energy physics which means it is based on a holistic and organic perspective or worldview. For simplication, it is possible to just use classical physics to understand the spectrum. It might not be perfect but it would be simplier in many respects. Understanding this spectrum means nothing much without its relationship with Qi (emotional energy) but it provides a glimspe into the different ecologies of a CMAist. It is a process of transformation not a procession of creation. Qi doesn't create Li nor does Li create Jing but they have proportional relationships. Strong Qi (a product of good health) does transform into strong Li or Jing. Most important of all and I can not stress the importance enough is that it has to relate to actual practice and sparring experiences in order for it to make sense any sense at all.

The Qi-Li-Jing Model is a mirror or rather window of empowerment as I would call it. It only reflects our MA experiences or performances in actual practice. It would help if it is viewed as a whole with the physical discipline, but not as a seperate mental discipline. Otherwise it would seem illogical every now and then IMHO.

Mantis108

[mantis108]

There are concepts concerning the training process (i.e the structure of the training program), which I have briefly touched on in my secod post and there are concepts concerning the combat process (i.e. phases of combat) although they are closely related. It would be easier for discussion purposes to identify the area(s) that you are interested in IMHO. Thanks

Regards

Mantis108

[mantis108]

I am most glad that you are interested and willing to listen. Thank you. :)

Well, the model is basically about the relationship between the power trio namely Qi, Li, and Jing. It could be explain in many ways but I just find it more convenient to use the geometric shape of a triangle for the explanation especially when we would like to reference it to the various aspects that we undertake during training including sparring which is my mind is one of the great ways to apply the lessons. I believe that theory and practice should be one and the same. I could collasp the triangle, literally looking at the bottom line (pun intended), which is formerly the base of the triangle and just focus on the relationship between Li (strength) and Jing (explosive synergy). Now we can just look at it as a spectrum. But then we have to ask ourselves what's the point of this exercise? How does the rhythms of combat (dance, charge, and coast) come into play in such case? So then we have to bare in mind that the triangle represents broader issues. The spectrum (the collasped triangle) represents more local issues. They are not that different although they are.

This is to say that you don't need to take Qi out of the equation. You could but not necessary. I suppose this is where the difficulty of visualizing how can the model be a triangle, spectrum and scale all at the same time. If you could imagine that Qi is like the blank webpage or the webpage itself and all graphics on it are Li (non dynamic graphics) and Jing (dynamic graphics). So everything is happening at the sametime as you are visiting the webpage just like in Kung Fu practice, including sparring, everything is happening at once.

Languages especially words, which is IMHO the prefered choice of philosophers and scholars, are not necessary the best tool to explain the experience of martial practices. In English language, time is tangible in the form of tenses. In other words you could mentally take a snap shot of time and play with it. In Chinese, there is no such luxury. Time is always fleeting. It is understood and then changed. One will have to be on his/her toes to keep up with the change, which by the way is one of the reasons why I-Ching ( the book of change) so highly evaluated as cultural treasure. The same is with the concept of Qi which doesn't make much sense to the English discipline. How could one word be almost everything and could be both form/shape and formless/shapeless? This is not hard if Qi is understood as a percept and concept at once. Otherwise it will always be a mere foreign concept that make no sense at all. Practicing martial arts can help in the most direct and effective way. When I was learning French a long time ago, the French teacher said that you are not learning just the language (the communicating skill). You are learning the culture - French culture (the way French people think and feel). It is in my mind the same with Chinese martial arts. You are not learning CMA instead you are learning Chinese culture which includes Chinese thought patterns (if there is such a thing).

Having said all that I have to stress that this is only a model that I developed for coaching my students so that they see where we are heading with our material. It is only a mean to an end not the end in itself. I feel this model is like a smorgasbord of eastern and western thoughts plus martial arts experiences for my students to munch on. There are something that they can relate to and there are things that they may not relate to at all at least not at the moment. Whether it is going to be a nourish feast or a crippling indigestion, only time and the person(s) will tell.

Hope this help.

Regards

Mantis108