Rise/Sink/Open/Close [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Phenix

02-10-2004, 04:41 PM

Originally posted by Grendel

I don't find them applicable in a Wing Chun context.

Regards,

I disagree :D

See, every move at any instant has a resultant force of strech open, shring close, rising erec, sink shrink, forward, backward.

All these 6 vectors have to be balance or Zhong. That is the begining of the energy paradigm.

Say, if someone jam one's wrist and trying to presure one's wrist inward toward one. some might react to it or response to it by changing lines/angle to neutralize .....

for those who has the capability of mastering this 6 vectors in the same instant. they can bounce the jammer in no time without even has to change lines.... change angle. they just balance the resultant and make use of the presure from the other as a link to send energy back....

sure that is another paradigm ... The play ground of those Alchemist of WCK like Gm Yip Man level or above....

Changing line and re angle are just too slow compare with the manual of the resultant force.... if the changing line and re angle is not purposely strategically to seduce others to be trap.

side step to avoid or slip side neutralize is not advance. often one cannot pick up the forward momentum while side step or slip side... and the opponent has crush in and one's structure will then totally colapse. the side step and slip side is nice in theoritical idealistic, that is because the momentum and pick up speed..... was not in the picture.

Knowing the various force vectors, resultant forces, and balance is a must. otherwise, one will never be able to stop a determine inrush... one will end up in groud for sure. No chance to side step.

Just some thought.

JamesHFYofAZ

02-10-2004, 04:53 PM

Hendrik has a point, Recieve what comes and sending off what goes. Sounds like swallow\spit to me. The spacial realities may be differant but what drives the action would be the same. Expand and contract or open and close or sink and rise. It is all about energies\actions that drive direction\reaction in my eyes. Nice views on energy guys!
Just thinking out loud!

Phenix

02-10-2004, 04:55 PM

Paul,

all those sink rise forward backward open close happen in the same times from different direction.

If anyone break them into single component and trying to understand it. One will be totally lose.

Look at the Ying Yang fish picture. within yang there is ying, within Ying that is yang. never 50-50 but always balance out.

why no 50-50 because live flow is never static. the beauty of never 50-50 is that it keep itself balance and continous to flow non stop. it is a dynamic stuffs. thus, cannot look at it with any single component.

IMHO. You dont agreee, ask the ancestors. :D
In the mean time, by that air mat and the body bow. :D

When you pull a body bow, is it open or close in term of force? think and feel it...... thus buy that body bow. :D

Phenix

02-10-2004, 04:59 PM

The paradigm shift is not in the Kiu but about penetrate direct through the energy body.... it is about those resultant force.

That is the reason I bring up White CRane, that is the reason I bring up Emei 12 post......... open close and sink rise is the term of Emei 12 post... BTW, sink and rise always involve open and close...

I dont care about where the art from but I would like to tap into the WCK alchemy, and I wish everyone can tap in.....

Advance WCK, shifting Yee is shifting lines and angle. Thus, it is in Yee and beyond the physical but always make the best use of the physical.

Believe it or not.

PaulH

02-10-2004, 05:20 PM

Those are very advanced stuffs indeed and sound logical! My only concern is can you prove it? Did you see your Sifu doing these fantastic stuffs? Can you do them? Help my unbelief! Really!

Regards,
PH

Phenix

02-10-2004, 05:27 PM

My only concern is can you prove it? --------------P

May be that's why I am going to Maui to meditate. So, Buddha will then teach me after I got enlightement. But then If I got enlightenment I will not coming back to teach you. :D

Did you see your Sifu doing these fantastic stuffs?------------P

Even one see one's sifu doing it for 10000x that doesnt mean one can do it.

Can you do them? ----- P

Wrong question, :D

the question should be how come one can describe San Jose's detail so clearly? :D

and the answer is because one is in San Jose.

Well, then go to San Jose to look for yourself. :P

PaulH

02-10-2004, 05:33 PM

Ha! Ha! Okay, so how can you describe the details so clearly. You folks in San Jose must have beautiful blue sky more often than our congested and foggy LA.

Regards,
PH

P.S. You got me hooked! I'll see if I can arrange to go there during my vacation period in the next few months! I'll call you first. Thanks.

Phenix

02-10-2004, 07:15 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
You folks in San Jose must have beautiful blue sky more often than our congested and foggy LA.

Regards,
PH

You got it wrong. :D

I go to MAUI. or grasping the cloud in Emei. :D

yylee

02-10-2004, 10:12 PM

Originally posted by Phenix

You got it wrong. :D

I go to MAUI. or grasping the cloud in Emei. :D

before you go..... (see attached) :D

Phenix

02-10-2004, 10:27 PM

Originally posted by yylee

before you go..... (see attached) :D

Yes. That is Goldern Summit Temple of Emei the SLT's grandma home , the place swim within the cloud. :D

Jim Roselando

02-11-2004, 05:59 AM

Hello,

I don't find them applicable in a Wing Chun context.

Different WC arts have different ways.

They have to do with the much different body mechanics of the so-called Nei jia (internal) arts. They'd destroy our Wing Chun structure IMHO because they entail rocking back and forth and sinking and rising with the application of jing.

While all arts have their own signatures and ways of doing things WC should still be classified in what you refer to as: So-called Internal arts. I would only add one word to that and it would be Soft. Not "so" different from Taiji/Ba Gwa/etc mechanics. Their is indeed a difference in ones body usage but in Leung Jan's Koo Lo teaching we also make use of R/S/O/C. All very subtle tho! Nothing gross and the less noticeable the better.

Their seems to be two schools of thought regarding this in WC;

1) We have a locked down body that uses the knees to power.

2) We have the stretched body that finds its source of strength in the lower back/waist/spine.

Those who make use of numero doce will have R/S/O/C and those who lock down have their way. Nothing better, nothing worst. Just different approaches.

I did number one for a long time. When in YJKYM I was only using arm/shoulder power. When I learned this way I found my whole body powering change. How else would one throw or absorb their own bodies power when not turning/moving?

Hendrik,

Maui! Lucky dog! Where are you staying? Wailea is amazing!!!! Plus! The Ahi Tuna melts in your mouth!!!! Yummy!

Regards,

PaulH

02-11-2004, 09:05 AM

While I was at the last recent Friendship gathering in LA, Robert Chu also demonstrated how he use the body in Jim R's numero doce to send and absorb power. I'm not sure that I saw how he open or close the body though. Perhaps Alan aka Zhuge Liang can help me out on this point. Very interesting stuffs so far!

Regards,
PH

JamesHFYofAZ

02-11-2004, 09:55 AM

Phenix

02-11-2004, 10:14 AM

Pual,

For advance art which deal with complex life, not those elementery school simplified type,

1, suck in, spit out, float and sink is not diectly equal with open close rise and drop.

2, these term are just a description. different style, lineage, person, technics varies in the implementation of these above. thus, it's implementation can be general and can be varying case by case. not to mention, if a balance or Zhong movement very very rare or almost never come with a solid rise or open.... if one see tap into the energy body

3, until one can see through directly into the energy body. dont get dellude by the external shape. there is no one and only one implementation for this words.

Zhuge Liang

02-11-2004, 10:26 AM

Hi Paul,

Originally posted by PaulH
While I was at the last recent Friendship gathering in LA, Robert Chu also demonstrated how he use the body in Jim R's numero doce to send and absorb power. I'm not sure that I saw how he open or close the body though. Perhaps Alan aka Zhuge Liang can help me out on this point. Very interesting stuffs so far!

I'm not sure I remember him mentioning open and close, though he is a practioner of TCM, and I wouldn't be suprised if he used the terminology. I think I understood the "gist" of what Robert was trying to explain, but I can't comment on the details because I am too unfamiliar with them. Perhaps Dave (Mckind13) might be able to shed some light on Robert's methods. The way we generate energy, in my opinion, is fairly different from Robert's (note not good or bad, just different). On the other hand, Ken speaks of open and close fairly often as well, though he admits that it isn't traditional Wing Chun terminology from our line (at least not through Yip Man and Leung Sheung). If you are to swing by to meet Hendrik, give me a ring as well. We would love to have you as a guest.

Regards,
Alan

AndrewS

02-11-2004, 10:31 AM

Paul,

catch me sometime, I'm not terribly good at it, but I can show you, in part because I'm not very good and my motions are still quite large. From having met Gary and spent a good bit of time trading ideas with Ernie, I'm **** positive he's doing, on some level, these actions. My bet is that they look more like the first case 'cos he's been doing them so long he's got them tight to the point of invisibility.

Jim,

I think 1). is a developmental phase to get to 2)., and what 2). looks like after you've gone from physical motion in the relevant kinetic chain to simple mental activation (i.e. overt and covert chan ssu jin in chen vs. yang taiji).

My present training heirarchy (order in which I think stuff is learned). 5) and 6) is what I play with a lot in solo practice these days, but haven't connected into my partner work yet. 1-4 I'm pretty clear on and use, but 5) and 6) are murky with flashes of clarity.

1). Whole body together and use the ground
2). Get force from the legs
3). Make the torso dynamic and softer
4). Relate the waist and chest
5). Find the hidden spirals in the legs and arms
6). Find the hidden spirals in the torso

Later,

Andrew

PaulH

02-11-2004, 10:43 AM

Thanks, James,Hendrik, Alan, and Andrew. Sure when I see you again I love to see what you do, Andrew.

Regards,
PH

Phenix

02-11-2004, 10:44 AM

My point of view sees those different motions, and how through stable structures and moving structures these directional energies can be applied.

I also know that they are not range dependent. I have seen them in some WCK families and since we all come from Southern China I see them in other systems as well. ----------

If one be able to "see" through physical body into energy body.
A quick scan will know how the energy differences. streching until it is too thin, or stay in balace and send, or sits there looks balance but the resultant force is in total mis-alignment.....

Ready for a true paradigm shift?

ONE DOESNT APPLY ENERGY. ONE IS THE ENERGY DISTRIBUTION AND FLOW. AND ENERGY SELDOM COMES PURE IN A SINGLE POLE, DIRECTION OR VECTOR.

As for the families that it is no longer prescient then it is apparent the information was lost in translations and personal expressions. --------

As soon as SLT is there nothing lost.
All family from Red Boat has it there. It is not about that look different movement it is about that energy body within it.

Thus, SLT must not be substitude or replace or make equavalent to the set such as Iron Wire or Fakuen .... ect. Otherwise, it is real Lost.

Those who did those equavalent doesnt understand the energy body of SLT.

It is not that difficult to proof this, get an advance attain master of Yee Chuan, or TaiJi..who is direct decendent of the founders. from BeiJing, ask thier second opinion on the energy body type.

It is similar to look at a disease, get the experience doctors second opinion.

If one look at a picture of old timer such as Gm Yip Man, one can "see" the tranquil, silence, balance. look at those pictures in todays books or article, if one look with curiousity without agenda to proof this or claim who is the best, just pure curious, the secret is infront of one's eyes.

"One could describe but would one understand if described to" If I said that these actions Are tan, gum, biu, paak one would probably disagree but if I were to describe the actions and angling of these actions could one see what was TRULY being said.

Fortune for to day-Face to face lurning will enlighten ones mind. But hand to hand training with inhance ones skill. ---------

Good fair question!

Without truely in San Jose, one will not be able to describe the road's details. But with a San Jose map, all travellers can find the place one wants to go without need a tour guide. with GPS one even amaze..

One doesnt need enlightent mind, one only need training in intuitition.

Line and angling are great for beginers. but they can become a big hindarance when progress into advance is needed.

ONE DOESNT APPLY ENERGY. ONE IS THE ENERGY DISTRIBUTION AND FLOW. AND ENERGY SELDOM COMES PURE IN A SINGLE POLE, DIRECTION OR VECTOR.

Phenix

02-11-2004, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by PaulH
Thanks, James,Hendrik, Alan, and Andrew. Sure when I see you again I love to see what you do, Andrew.

Regards,
PH

The trouble / fun of it is, if one doent know about reading into energy body, one will not see. :D

Thus, I am going to Maui. to swim and waving the wave like a turtle .

Not those karate chop ninja turtle . but WXZ type of turtle in Maui... :D

Jim, can a turtle eat tuna while swiming? check for that WXZ turtle... :D

PaulH

02-11-2004, 11:19 AM

It's true, Hendrik! Phil Collins somehow got this unbearable lightness of feelings/seeing: "Take a good look at me now...nothing but empty space." Good luck in Maui. Aloha!

Ultimatewingchun

02-11-2004, 11:34 AM

Have to disagree with Hendrik somewhat...

Angling and redirecting the opponent's force CAN BE very efficient at a certain DISTANCE from your opponent's body (ie.- you are primarily dealing with his limbs - say an arm)...

But when he is close enough to use his entire body mass to generate a powerful force - in addition to his arms...(ie. - he's grabbing you and attempting a more or less straight ahead chest-to-chest push leading to a takedown, for example)...

then the internal rooting of energy - using the whole body and the ground to generate power through the legs on upward...etc...
(without trying to use angling and redirection - since your opponent is too close and too skillful for that)...

MAKES MUCH SENSE.

And of course using this kind of internal energy and body motion to generate extra power on a strike (when the opportunity is there) - from a longer distance...is always a possibility as well.

Ultimatewingchun

02-11-2004, 11:45 AM

By the way, AndrewS...

I liked your post about the 6 different phases you've been working on.

Phenix

02-11-2004, 12:10 PM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Have to disagree with Hendrik somewhat...

Angling and redirecting the opponent's force CAN BE very efficient at a certain DISTANCE from your opponent's body (ie.- you are primarily dealing with his limbs - say an arm)...

Victor,

I certainly agree with you on this one. Thus, it is better then those who dont know what to do with thier arm...ect. That's the beauty of it.

Phenix

02-11-2004, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
It's true, Hendrik! Phil Collins somehow got this unbearable lightness of feelings/seeing: "Take a good look at me now...nothing but empty space." Good luck in Maui. Aloha!

Paul,

Thanks.

You give me a great insperation on which song to choose for my next article in wck.com. thanks.

Jim Roselando

02-11-2004, 03:07 PM

Hello Andrew!

Jim,

I think 1). is a developmental phase to get to 2)., and what 2). looks like after you've gone from physical motion in the relevant kinetic chain to simple mental activation (i.e. overt and covert chan ssu jin in chen vs. yang taiji).

My present training heirarchy (order in which I think stuff is learned). 5) and 6) is what I play with a lot in solo practice these days, but haven't connected into my partner work yet. 1-4 I'm pretty clear on and use, but 5) and 6) are murky with flashes of clarity.

1). Whole body together and use the ground
2). Get force from the legs
3). Make the torso dynamic and softer
4). Relate the waist and chest
5). Find the hidden spirals in the legs and arms
6). Find the hidden spirals in the torso

This is an excellent post! All important info.. Maybe we should
start a new thread on these items!

Regards,

PaulH

02-11-2004, 03:23 PM

Jim,

Don't mind me! I'm cool to any new ideas directly or indirectly relevant to this thread! Thanks for that helpful summary of the two positions on your post! I used to train in your 1st point and now more of your 2nd! Funny how things go!

Regards,
PH

Jim Roselando

02-11-2004, 03:43 PM

Jim,

Don't mind me!

Or me!

I'm cool to any new ideas directly or indirectly relevant to this thread!

Me too!

Thanks for that helpful summary of the two positions on your post! I used to train in your 1st point and now more of your 2nd! Funny how things go!

We all share and I am the same as you. Three years ago I made the changes in the internal mechanics and am still changing. It started for me when I was discipled into the Koo Lo family but I can also say that Hendrik has helped me a lot so fair credit to him to! Knowledge is a journey and I can see we are just starting to scratch the surface.

Mind if I ask what difference your feel in your body/wc?

Regards,

PaulH

02-11-2004, 03:50 PM

Jim,

From a strictly balance viewpoint, it is not too good if you are low. When someone push you you have no place to go whereas you can sink, rise or move back and forth to neutralize incoming forces from a more neutral stance. This is really my chief reason. I find greater relaxation as a nice byproduct. Hendrik influenced me quite a bit too!

Regards,
PH

Phenix

02-11-2004, 04:59 PM

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the credit.
as soon as everyone grow , remember the ancestors dont worried about the name hendrik. without ancestors and friends we cant make it.
for we all walk the path and work together to help each others. We all WCners.

on

1). Whole body together and use the ground
2). Get force from the legs
3). Make the torso dynamic and soft
4). Relate the waist and chest
5). Find the hidden spirals in the legs and arms
6). Find the hidden spirals in the torso

For me these all are great to build up one's intuition, because you pay attention and curious how things work.. great.

thus, i have heard from experience guy,
one day when you "see" the " reality".
it will not be what you expected.
it is like suddently you saw the great elephant but it resemberant none of its part. even you never see the elephant before but the first sight you see it. you know that's it, you have reach home, sure there are still level's to climp....work to be done, but you "know" that is what you are looking for.

When you list these 6, you didnt see it yet. and dont expect it will be those spiral...or ....ect, might be might not be..... but without this six you will not see it.

great stuffs

if there is a few keys to start the slt engine. the first one is about curiosity, the second will be take everything a part.

sure one might create a mess for oneself for next 20 years but without losing in the mess, pay attention to the small parts.... one always is just a copy cat without one's style. even in wck, one has one's style or signature.... as I have heard

Just some thought

AndrewS

02-11-2004, 07:12 PM

Hey Hendrick,

all this stuff is part of the internal mechanics- cool to take apart and fiddle with, applicable in 'treating the other guy like the wooden dummy'.

I've headed down a hundred dead ends, found stuff too early and too late while I've been looking.

Here's a question- when you interact with another body, do you 'treat them like the wooden dummy', or (ok this is gonna sound weird) perceive a mutual CoG, localize your consciousness there and manipulate that shared CoG? I'm thinking about certain types of throws where this happens, and extrapolating to general continuous connection. I think this is a lot of what Ueshiba was talking about. . .

Later,

Andrew

yylee

02-11-2004, 09:07 PM

here is what they say about open/close/rise/sink in Qigong context:

II. Rising and lowering with openings and closings

Stand with feet about one leg's length apart with arms hanging down on both sides. Then hold hands up in front of your chest. Hold them apart about shoulders' width. When inhaling imagine there is an energy field between the hands and the energy pushes the hands apart. Bend the knees to lower the stance. When exhaling imagine that the energy field collapses and the hands go back to the original position (down on the sides) and straighten the legs. Repeat three times.

Next take one step forward. Hold the hands up in front of your chest a shoulders' width apart. When inhaling imagine there is an energy field between the hands and the energy pushes the hands apart. When exhaling imagine that the energy field collapses; drop the hands and bend the knees. Repeat three times.

http://alternativehealing.org/guolin_qigong_detail.htm

Phenix

02-11-2004, 10:04 PM

Hi Andrews,

I've headed down a hundred dead ends, found stuff too early and too late while I've been looking. -----A

Great that is where mastering is from---by screw up.

Here's a question- when you interact with another body, do you 'treat them like the wooden dummy', or (ok this is gonna sound weird) perceive a mutual CoG, localize your consciousness there and manipulate that shared CoG? -----A

That depend on my age :D
It varies from when I am 20, 30, 40..

You actually post a very inteligent question but may be you want to find out, in a real situation such as while you are driving in the high way with 65miles/hour speed, what do your intuition tell you, is other car a car or something else? how do you treat other car?

if your mind fill with Dummy, Straw man., cog...... what if you meet Sexy Diaz trying to attacking you? will those pre-condition inteligent "model" work? or these pre-condition inteligent model become an agenda you want to force that blocking you to see the obvious and doing what is proper?

same thing, what will a pre-condition mind / idea do for you while you are driving? does that pre-condition mind tell you the reality or it is just your model which might not reflex reality? Check it out.

I'm thinking about certain types of throws where this happens, and extrapolating to general continuous connection. I think this is a lot of what Ueshiba was talking about. . . ----A

treating has two components here, 1, what do one "see" 2, what do one going to do about it.

imo,

1, seeing others "as they are"--without exgegerate(sp) or coloring by my own perspective or emotion or others agressiveness or warmness or sexyness...,( be it facing a dog or sexy Diaz or ...). i dont think" if I can, i "see".

2, I let him show me what it is and what it wants to do, and how is it related to balance . Do that balancing act.

But ofcause, this "dont thinking" and response spontaneous has to based on the development and attainment of the energy understanding / handling capability / balancing.

the more one capable to handle energy the more one will be able to accept things as it is and response spontaneously -----up to a point there is no different between an attacker or a woodern dummy or oneself.

do what it needs to be done for balancing. even if that is given Diaz a freindly tap on her shoulder which has nothing to do with physical cog or woodern dummy. but balance her emotion.

So, you ask me either or. I reply you dont pre-condition otherwise it wont flow naturally. Osense said the art of peace is to fullfil what is lacking.

And non preconditioning is zen. is it not?

Just some wacky thoughts

Ultimatewingchun

02-11-2004, 11:22 PM

AndrewS:

This is something I've sometimes worked with - similar to (but slightly different) from what you said in your last post...

Tell me what you think ? :

1) Train oneself to ALWAYS be in touch with your own CoG - first consciously - then unconsciously...both in stillness (ie.- during SLT), and in movement, (ie.- during Chum Kiu)...then...

2) Learn how to immediately locate your opponent's CoG...(for example - like you said - while interacting with another body in a possible throwing situation)...then...

3) Immediately identify where the potential weakness is in HIS CoG (based upon how he's standing - how he's balanced - or NOT balanced, and how he's angled vis-a-vis yourself)...then...

4) Take advantage of the weakness and throw him - sweep him...whatever.

At the advanced stages of this kind of thing a momentary link between your CoG - and his CoG - and his WEAK spot , (or his POTENTIAL weak spot) will reveal itself to you (first consciously - then unconsciously)- and you will instantly unbalance him with a throw or whatever...

Phenix

02-12-2004, 09:31 AM

Since we discuss the open, close..... energy body....,
now if we carry this to one step further techically.

Victor has a great post:

----------

Angling and redirecting the opponent's force CAN BE very efficient at a certain DISTANCE from your opponent's body (ie.- you are primarily dealing with his limbs - say an arm)...

But when he is close enough to use his entire body mass to generate a powerful force - ........

then the internal rooting of energy - using the whole body and the ground to generate power through the legs on upward...etc...
(without trying to use angling and redirection - since your opponent is too close and too skillful for that)...

MAKES MUCH SENSE.

And of course using this kind of internal energy and body motion to generate extra power on a strike (when the opportunity is there) - from a longer distance...is always a possibility as well.

-----------------

If one investigate the concept of 5 array : BaiJong, intercept, sinking, pursue, and recovery. This 5 array stratergy is great dealing with limbs type of art. If one look at the implementation of the 5 phases, one will see, it is great for limb distance counter/attact but not deep penetration.

IMHO,
If presume one has attained the internal energy handling capability as those ancestors in red boat. Not the primarily dealing with his limbs type of wck art.
Then, "Come retain , goes send back, ...." is adequate.

Why so?

1, There no need for Baijong or recovery steps because every steps is already within balance or Zhong which is ready for any engage.

2, one step of energy "sending" can consist of intercept, sinking, and pursue steps . using the energy flow/send and the shape of physical structure supporting that energy type to intercept, sinking, and deep penetrate in one step (deep penetration instead of pursue. )

Ie. similar to the grapper " when he is close enough to use his entire body mass to generate a powerful force - in addition to his arms...(ie. - he's grabbing you and attempting a more or less straight ahead chest-to-chest push leading to a take down, for example)...And of course using this kind of internal energy and body motion to generate extra power on a strike (when the opportunity is there) - from a longer distance...is always a possibility as well."

as it said, "come retain, goes send back, using silence to subdue action. " (silence means Zhong here.) just one spontaneous response from the silence, not 5 steps.. if one has that energy body type.

Thus, I have never convince the WCK using the 5 steps / array is the original of the WCK from the red boat. This is because it doesnt address the already mature issues , deep penetration in one step (which red boat wck did), which Chinese martial arts as early as Ming Dynasty has to faced --- namely, one fight wrestle .. too. I have post the view of Ming Martial art reform segment translation, on comination of Eagle craw/lock, wresting, ..... on earlier post to Victor.

For illustration to support my point from the concept of different authors.
To 'see' the differences of the energy body of the two type of art. the shaolin WC which use the 5 arry and the Red boat WC.

Check out the WCK book, by DR Leung Ting, page 27, there is a drawing on Leung Jan and Money Changer Wah. (Look at how deep the penetration or taking over other's teritory.)

In contrast, check out Mastering Kungfu by VTM, page 47 , the drawing figure 2.16, title, chan wah shun training with Leung Jan. (notice how things stay at limb stage,) This type of energy signature also support by Fig 2.9, title, Yat Chan Daai Si in front of the Hong Fa Ting, in page 39. Figure 2.12, title Hung Gun Biu Training his follower, in page 42.

Make your own conclusion from what you see above.
Nothing good or bad just different.

I might be the number one coocoo and totally wrong, for there exist no such internal energy. that always possible. Just human.

But what if it exist?

Again, I post strongly my believe, SLT doesnt equavalent from Fakuen to Iron Wire, dont modified it, because that might be our last chance to tap this energy. I might be right, I might be the number one BSter. just human.

Just some technical thoughts.

Phenix

02-12-2004, 09:52 AM

As a different topic,

IMHO, any primarily dealing with limb only art will not sustain Grapper well.

Gracie is right, it always end up in ground.

Just some thought

Ultimatewingchun

02-12-2004, 01:32 PM

Hendrik:

That was a super post - because you really clarify what the issues are on SEVERAL different recent threads - in terms of ENERGY (CHI) - in terms of different approaches to wing chun concerning FIGHTING DISTANCES - and possibly historical/lineage questions as well.

You wrote: "I've never been convinced that WCK using the 5 steps/array is the original from the red boat...because it doesn't address the...issues...(of) deep penetration in one step (which red boat WCK did), which Chinese martial arts as early as the Ming Dynasty had to face...namely...one fights wrestlers too..."

You then raised the issue of whether or not the ability to cultivate internal energy from SLT exists or not...? You're not sure.

Finally, you wrote in your follow-up post that "any primarily dealing with limb only art will not sustain grapplers...as the Gracie's claim - it will go to the ground..."

Let me say this to you - I am convinced that the knowledge being taught in the first section of SLT goes way beyond introducing us to the centerline, the basic horse stance, the basic tan, wu, fuk hand positions, etc...

AND THE BIGGEST REASON WHY THIS SECTION IS DONE SO SLOWLY...

is to cultivate internal power (chi energy)...BOTH...let me repeat that...BOTH...for striking purposes (the primarily dealing with limb only aspect of WCK - at a certain STRIKING range)...

and ALSO for the MUCH CLOSER RANGE...wherein someone might be trying to grab you..chest-to-chest..and bring you down to the ground. But few people have truly mastered both (or even one) of these things.

BUT... I have yet to see any evidence that WCK actually (historically) developed a grappling system - WHICH INCLUDES AN EXTENSIVE ARRAY OF GROUND-GRAPPLING...

hence my interest on an earlier thread in asking certain questions to Andreas Hoffman.

At this point I am inclined to believe that Weng Chun is...somehow...someway...a sister-art to WCK...since the body spiral motions and chi sim (I believe it is) do seem related to wing chun principles...BUT AT A CLOSER DISTANCE...(ie.- standup grabbing, grappling, sweeping, locking, etc)...

It is my belief at the present time that the absence of ground-grappling...let me clarify that...EXTENSIVE ground grappling...is probably due to a belief on the part of the wing chun founders (and probably weng chun founders also)...

and again I am just speculating...

due to the belief that with the proper internal and external training - one could avoid being taken to the ground.

In other words - EVEN if thrown/swept (which would be unlikely if this second form of internal rooting and energy dispersal was mastered)...but even if it happened - one could recover and get back up...

But that other forms of grappling wherein one has been grabbed and TAKEN to the ground WITHOUT ANY BODILY SEPARATION...(and therefore the thrower has a much bigger opportunity to continue the grappling on the ground)...

That these things could be avoided due to the measures in place I've already discussed.

Now what the real historical/ lineage connections are that relate to all these issues....WHO KNOWS ?

And at this point - I don't care !

I do know this much...it is important to be skillful in ALL fighting ranges...including grappling/wrestling on the ground.

JamesHFYofAZ

02-12-2004, 01:48 PM

If one investigate the concept of 5 array : BaiJong, intercept, sinking, pursue, and recovery. This 5 array stratergy is great dealing with limbs type of art. If one look at the implementation of the 5 phases, one will see, it is great for limb distance counter/attact but not deep penetration. It is apparent that your experience does not match mine. I play more with the five phases/stages/ array's and noticed that these five are also guided by energies that are able to "penetrate through body as one says." Or I just don't understand your postings.
If presume one has attained the internal energy handling capability as those ancestors in red boat. Not the primarily dealing with his limbs type of wck art. So it is possible to penetrate deep, Yes, no, I am confused again. Sorry!
Check out the WCK book, by DR Leung Ting, page 27, there is a drawing on Leung Jan and Money Changer Wah. (Look at how deep the penetration or taking over other's territory.) Is this good Time/ space and energy control? is This your point?
In contrast, check out Mastering Kungfu by VTM, page 47 , the drawing figure 2.16, title, Chan wah shun training with Leung Jan. (notice how things stay at limb stage,) This type of energy signature also support by Fig 2.9, title, Yat Chan Daai Si in front of the Hong Fa Ting, in page 39. Figure 2.12, title Hung Gun Biu Training his follower, in page 42. I see you and you see oil paintings, how do you think you go through the five, with penetration, Pow! thats gotta hurt, and hows the head? Again I must be confused with your antics. Sorry! Fortune for today- Words of wisdom taken from masters, can only be herd. Words of wisdom expressed through self can then truly be felt. LOL:rolleyes:

duende

02-12-2004, 02:03 PM

Phoenix,

You claim to be the Grand Master of a lineage that has no CK and no BJ. All you have is an extended SLT with alot of White Crane thrown in.

Yet you write these post like you actually know about Red Boat Wing Chun. Your posts are nothing more than layers upon layers of assumptions from books you've read and pictures you've analyzed searching for what you call evidence.

Reading your comments on the 5 arrays of combat is quite frankly a joke. You don't have the slightest idea of what you are talking about. Your not even close.

How pompous of you to think that you possess all the knowledge of our three forms in you modified SLT. How pompouse of you to think that you have all the energies, and strategies of our Yi Ngh Jahn Chiuh Mihn Jeui Yihng in your first move.

You claim to be so eastern in spirituality and thought, yet you put alot of weight in the very western concept of learning through books and pictures. And then you go off talking crap about internal energy.

Real Experience is hands on training. It is not just reading a book, it's not just attending one seminar, and it's definitely not a self-interpretation of a kuen kuit that you noticed on a chalk board.

So until you get some real experience with what the vast majority consider real Wing Chun, qualifying your rantings with "imho" is not enough. To be more accurate, you should qualify you posts with "in my extremely naive view based soley on the books and pictures I've looked at, and my understanding of White Crane, I think...."

JamesHFYofAZ

02-12-2004, 02:05 PM

Ultimatewingchun
I was one lucky SOB to be able to experience this first hand. Chi Sim is in my eyes a sister to Wing, The both deal with the control of T/S/E as well as all ranges.

Let me say this to you - I am convinced that the knowledge being taught in the first section of SLT goes way beyond introducing us to the centerline, the basic horse stance, the basic tan, wu, fuk hand positions, etc...
Quito's, The lim tau is not tecnical but spiritual as well. The development of self. I see this go behond one thread as well, thanks for making it short. Due to confusion of some I will just say this - some have drank most of the tea from thare cup, and others well they say that don't drink tea.:D

Ultimatewingchun

02-12-2004, 02:33 PM

JamesHFYofAR:

Thanks for your response...I'm sure Weng Chun has much to offer - and yes - SLT is very deep.

Hendrik:

Please do your best to ignore any attempt to troll you on the present discussion...the topic is TOO RELEVANT to allow ourselves to be sidetracked by politics.

canglong

02-12-2004, 02:51 PM

originally posted by hendrik
In contrast, check out Mastering Kungfu by VTM, page 47 , the drawing figure 2.16, title, chan wah shun training with Leung Jan. (notice how things stay at limb stage,) This type of energy signature also support by Fig 2.9, title, Yat Chan Daai Si in front of the Hong Fa Ting, in page 39. Figure 2.12, title Hung Gun Biu Training his follower, in page 42.
originally posted by hendrik
Make your own conclusion from what you see above. To conclude anything without experience is foolish there is no conclusion to be made without experience there is no conclusion to be made without first feeling the energy of Wu Xing there is only room for speculation and misinterpretation. As a Grandmaster of white crane one would think you would know this basic aspect of kung fu.
Just some technical thoughts There is nothing technical about your opinion.

Phenix

02-12-2004, 04:13 PM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun

Hendrik:

Please do your best to ignore any attempt to troll you on the present discussion...the topic is TOO RELEVANT to allow ourselves to be sidetracked by politics.

Victor,

Thanks.

Bringing technical things up for discussion certainly is a "without-thank but blame" situation for some.

My view is that technical view points can be discuss openly.
And, you are right it is better to ignore troll, but I do understand where they come from and see thier views, but I disagree technically.

Phenix

02-12-2004, 04:28 PM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
and again I am just speculating...

due to the belief that with the proper internal and external training - one could avoid being taken to the ground.

In other words - EVEN if thrown/swept (which would be unlikely if this second form of internal rooting and energy dispersal was mastered)...but even if it happened - one could recover and get back up...

But that other forms of grappling wherein one has been grabbed and TAKEN to the ground WITHOUT ANY BODILY SEPARATION...(and therefore the thrower has a much bigger opportunity to continue the grappling on the ground)...

That these things could be avoided due to the measures in place I've already discussed....

But few people have truly mastered both (or even one) of these things.

Victor,

I think your view has lots of truth in it.
And, ofcorse, if

" internal power (chi energy)...BOTH......few people have truly mastered both (or even one) of these things." as you have wrote then one is in great trouble.

Life is a paradox and we have a choice to live with it honestly or in denying.

desertwingchun2

02-12-2004, 05:56 PM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun

Hendrik:

Please do your best to ignore any attempt to troll you on the present discussion...the topic is TOO RELEVANT to allow ourselves to be sidetracked by politics.

"I agree with you. It is behave similar to political people in political race. trying to smearing, twisting., discrediting .... ect... all political behavior." - Hendrick

"I am political.
Sure, I do it for all the WCK people ...."- Hendrick

I'm sure they appreciate your efforts!

-David

Ernie

02-12-2004, 05:58 PM

hendrik,
good discussion , great information been enjoying and thinking about much that has been shared , the key word is shared , minds working together , much better then personalities and ego's working against one an other , don't get sucked into the downward spiral emotional conviction , stick with clear function as you have been , this is by far one of the best threads i have seen in a while ,
the '' wing chun body '' is not so much a visual thing once you incorperate the '' wing chun mind '' mind and body unified . it will take on different appearences as spontainious enregy is achieved .

but to have the road map , navagational tools to understand the body application is very valuable .

so please continue on ,
and thanks for what you have contrubuted so far

Phenix

02-12-2004, 06:20 PM

Hi Ernie,

Thanks.

We cannot close our eyes making we are number one claim while our grapper friends look at us with compassionate heart. We need to know who we are. ofcause, we cannot be everything, everything has limit. and we need to understand capability as wel as limitation.

from shape, to distance, to energy, to fighting stratergy, to mind directing... I think we need to take a part everything , examine them both in a single and complex relationship form. otherwise, we will be screw in chaos or over idealistic simplified.

I believe if one want to get into internal energy training one needs to go into resultant force perspective of understanding and training.

so, the open close.... cannot be view as a single monotonous subject.
the open, close.. all exist in the same instant,
it is only a matter of how strong the weight of the vector.
which vector dominate and is it balance or extremely tip?

Victor mention about practising SLT slowly, for me that is for intuition training to master the resultant force of every minor move. So, the key words are Intuition and resultant force. close, open, raise, drop are terminology for the intuition and resultant force training. these training differentiate WCK's SLT from others set or other sougthern CMA, SLT IS A FULL RANGE SENDING ART.

logic and theory is great, once every years some great thinking comes out. but, ultimately, that intuition, that resultant force we have to face them every instant.

Ernie

02-12-2004, 07:38 PM

hendrik
here is a clip from the article below

[[ "And when hei gung (internal energy training) is added to the po pai sau, the power you are able to put out with that push is unbelievable," adds Lam. ]]

http://www.chung-hua.com/legends14.htm

some times what looks like a simple push is really the cultivation of short explosive '' sending'' power
:D
but so few research and apply this skill , why ? it is very difficult to do , the proper position , balance speed timing and plat form to send power from at the blink of an eye , some times pushing is punching hmmmm. so many similarities ,
but a great difference from just a stiff push to a short explosive send :D

canglong

02-12-2004, 08:23 PM

originally posted by hendrik
1, There no need for Baijong or recovery steps because every steps is already within balance or Zhong which is ready for any engage. You don't study SNT CK BJ so it only makes sense you would not understand them.

originally posted by hendrik
Thus, I have never convince the WCK using the 5 steps / array is the original of the WCK from the red boat. This is because it doesnt address the already mature issues , deep penetration in one step (which red boat wck did), which Chinese martial arts as early as Ming Dynasty has to faced --- Your full cup will not allow you the experience of conviction and so you can neither prove nor support this misguided disinformation and lacking experience one can only wonder about your motives behind such statements.

Phenix

02-12-2004, 09:13 PM

Hi Ernie,

Thanks. That is great.

You know, as for fatt geng or sending energy.... one has to have the capability of staying in Zhong or balance in any instant.
Without that one can't do it.

From Yee Chuan's Wang Xian-Chai's sending energy method which I have looked closely perform by his close decendent,....., to Yik Kam's four points inherit by Cho family decribing sending out energy. It seems that dealling with energy always certain needs a balance state, not standing still , but balance in dynamic flow, meaning ----one can release in any part of the body, body or limbs, any place one wish and without pre-condition or getting ready as you see from the normal qigong demo. Those wont work in real life. different type of stuff.

And, it is my believe that all these components needs to be taken apart and fully examine. And share to discuss.

It is very irresponsible if we just blur if off ..
without looking at what is it or put a laber on it.

just some thought

Ernie

02-12-2004, 09:23 PM

hendrik
[[It seems that dealling with energy always certain needs a balance state, not standing still , but balance in dynamic flow, meaning ----one can release in any part of the body, body or limbs, any place one wish and without pre-condition or getting ready as you see from the normal qigong demo. ]]

this goes back to the feeling aspect you capture a subtle motion and add to it or create a echo and then send your power in , dual pulse technology ha ha sounds like a hendrik term

a rock is much easier to move once in motion , often it's the apperance of great power , but inreality it's just a well timed release

Phenix

02-12-2004, 09:34 PM

Ernie,

BTW, in the article it mention
" 3. Take the opponent's position. "

That is what I called deep penetrate concept.
See, the Gracie always deep penetrate.. they take the opponents position and take down. Limb distance art without the capability of take the opponents position doesnt achive much.

almost half a century ago, I was scold to death one night by late Cho Hong-Choy because I was angling and side line-ning... around instead of take the opponents position in a sparing. Cho scold at me said that " that is not WCK. WCK get in and take the real estate under his stance. throw him out from his home. let him has no place to stay."

That must be Cho's "anti Qing over thrown the manchurian" top secret . :D

Ernie

02-12-2004, 09:45 PM

taking a persons position , [ one step in ] is taught to us from the very first action , very first drill at gary's , it's why we use the mattress on the wall to train deep explode power . we must take position and use a short burst to send him flying into the mattress . in the begining the motion is long and un balanced over commited but in time , one inch or so
:D

but this can not be rushed it develops as wing chun mind and body find harmony in motion and intent , but with out the mattress to express full powwer with no worries about hurting the partner , not sure how you would cultivate it

Ultimatewingchun

02-12-2004, 10:45 PM

Hendrik, Ernie:

My first wing chun sifu, Moy Yat, talked often of how GM Yip Man was able to take people's space away and unbalance them...He used words like..."they had no place to stand"...

Read Gary Lam's article about the pushing energy and the damage it can do - as another weapon besides striking...coming off po-pai moves...

Right in line with what Moy Yat used to teach...and with what William Cheung has occasionally taught at semi-private instructor's seminars.

Phenix

02-12-2004, 11:27 PM

Victor,

Those "no place to stand" technics exist in Yik Kam's SLT 4th secton.

Later, I found them in the emei 12 post's Small letter post.

The technics is named as the seven star steps which spread out resembrace the big dipper (?) ( the northern seven stars) There is the forward seven star or backward seven star steps all about how to chase away one.... ( too many co-incident which I have found with details from the Emei 12 post, beside the white crane of fujian)

And certainly, I saw those in Biu Jee set also. .....

I was told by Late Cho Hong-Choy that Yik Kam defeat Cho's brothers who train in southern Shao Lin or Nam Kuen or Choy Gar Hung Kuen in read boat by letting them attack him from the side door and Yik just take thier place bounce/send them off naturaly with ease.

Those old generation including my sigung Cho on's generation were very " taking place" concious. and it is my believe and speculation that one of the key of the taking place, which is the capability of "send" energy from almost all part of the body is a kept secret which they not reveal to public. Since WCK is a short or close range fighting art, those are thier bread and butter, they never seem to shown and talk about it much but will apply every time.

yylee

02-12-2004, 11:29 PM

At a better stage, I believe a single touch is enough to send someone off balance. Something like a short Bong energy, a little movement with the elbow after contact. IMHO, SNT teaches us to deliver energy instancely without long preparation.

Phenix

02-13-2004, 12:30 AM

let see how other did it....

http://www.dcdkungfu.com/dachengquan/master1.html

"As Mr. Wang rose to fame in the 1920's as an instructor of martial arts, he discovered that students paid undue attention to patterns and postures and neglected the training of the mind and spirit.

Thus, to constantly remind his students of this misunderstanding, he changed Xingyiquan (form and mind boxing) to Yiquan (mind boxing).

By Yi (will or mind) he meant that in practicing boxing, every movement must be guided by a certain idea.

When practiced in this way, the idea of boxing exists in every movement, whether it be walking, standing, sitting or even lying."

it is in every movement..... no need to bai Jong.

Ernie

02-13-2004, 12:51 AM

no need to bai Jong

when there is a need , there is a way , and then there is a robotic slave
taining wheels ,security blankets , trying to connect and belong to things .
these are silly concepts people cry and fight so much to keep these illusions but once there finally rid of them the world opens

once there is a way there is a way to be beaten so so true
let others stay stuck to there mothers nipple [ or is it janet jacksons ]

it makes thing so much easier for those that just accept and flow:D

back to the subject
hendrik there is stable platform short power and thne there is power by momentum
what are your thoughts on the power that comes from the transition between the two :cool: balanced momentum or stable motion

PaulH

02-13-2004, 01:01 AM

Master Cai's Use of Stillness by Jan Diepersloot

"Just as the use of movement with relaxation and attention characterizes the art of neutralizing energy, it is the use of stillness with integration and intention that defines the art of discharging energy.

At the higher levels of physical interaction, Master Cai is completely still, having internalized all exterior movement. Neutralization and discharge of energy are accomplished by consciousness alone; awareness (attention) to neutralize, intention to discharge. The great advantage is obvious. The time period for physical response to be completed is eliminated. The response is instantaneous. At the moment Master Cai is touched, he is capable of repelling his opponent with devastating force without moving himself. This is dramatically illustrated in the photograph in (figs 9.1 and 9.2) where the opponent being repelled is a blur of motion, while Master Cai's image remains crisp and clear."

Okay I saw the figures and the force receiver's images are kind of blurring in contrast with the sharp image of Cai. - PH

"...Chinese, Japanese, Korean and European, have tried to kick, punch, or shove him. Never did I see anyone of them come close to executing their intentions before being neutralized and thrown back. Master Cai's awareness is so great that while he always waits for his opponent to initiate the attack, his own response is completed before his opponent's action is completed. As he put it in his own words 'you start first, but I arrive and finish first'."

Phenix

02-13-2004, 01:04 AM

Originally posted by Ernie

what are your thoughts on the power that comes from the transition between the two :cool: balanced momentum or stable motion

even the transition is within "balance"

duende

02-13-2004, 01:21 AM

YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT BAI JONG IS.

Everytime you open your mouth you do the Wing Chun community a great disservice.

I am amazed at how gullible people are here... You are a Grandmaster of one thing Hendrik. The Grandmaster of Bull****. And it looks like you got a few discples here...

I wonder what the real Grandmasters of Wong Wa Bou would think if they knew you all were subscribing to some nut on the web who says he knows all of your CK and BJ in his White Crane Wing CHun SLT.

They would be as disgusted as I am.

Ultimatewingchun

02-13-2004, 01:49 AM

Hendrik:

Again you're being trolled...but I'm going to suggest something to you now that is the complete opposite of what your adversaries believe...

They say you are telling lies...

I say that you are getting TOO CLOSE TO THE TRUTH... and I, for one, have to bow out of this discussion because of it !

When you wrote..."By Yi (will or mind) he meant that in practicing boxing, every moment must be guided by a certain idea..."

You entered a whole new realm of ESOTERIC discussion that I don't believe should be engaged in on a public forum...

THOUGHTS ARE THINGS...(This is the alchemy you seek)...

But as a very wise man once said..."Don't cast your pearls before swine..." (No offense intended to those who already know I mean THEM no harm).

The kind of esoteric training I am referring to now I did not receive from William Cheung or Moy Yat...I received it elsewhere...
with the understanding that I be very careful about imparting it to others...

CERTAINLY NOT ON A PUBLIC FORUM...

Be careful once in this realm, Hendrick...Many karmic repercussions can follow you here that you did not necessarily bargain for.

Adios for now.

kungfu cowboy

02-13-2004, 02:03 AM

Alright. Now things are just getting plain spooky.

Ernie

02-13-2004, 03:18 AM

victor
tapping out now that's odd :D
information is information and good information might come from the preacher ot the hooker on the corner ,
the source has nothing to do with the essence of the idea or info , if you can do somehting useful with it .

most of what i read is not new to me but sometimes the way it is said or orginized gives me a different perspective or a new way to pass it on to some one else .

the swarm of bee's that like to buzz and sting each other has nothing to do with the honey being shared ,

just put on some bug block and keeep on digging :D

it just sad to see grown ups act like kids , and pauls thread get catch a stray bullet in a gang fight were both gangs are fighting over property that belongs to niether

oh well

hendrik
[even the transition is within "balance ]

this is very true , but why do so many lack the ability to glide and tap into the power at will
instead they fiend for the earth and become clunky like 2 spiked poles pulling in and out of the ground , perhaps an inbalance to much of one idea stunts the ability to flow to the next another ''need'' for security , or lack of short power so they walk with crutches

just some thoughts

duende

02-13-2004, 07:20 AM

Ernie says...

"it just sad to see grown ups act like kids , and pauls thread get catch a stray bullet in a gang fight were both gangs are fighting over property that belongs to niether

oh well"

Ernie,

I've scene this behavior before from his colleagues. In that Phoenix read something. Made his own translation. And therefore thinks he knows what it means. In both cases , their actual awareness of what the true meaning was very very low. And somewhat humorous if you actually knew the real meaning.

This goes beyond that though. As I truly feel he is being dis-respectful to the art of what most people consider real WC by his latest posts.

He's no Kung Fu man... Any real Master would not give him the time of day. It is only on this board that people get suckered in by him. Real Buddist Masters from China think he's wondering at best. We've shown them his writings just for a laugh.

KPM

02-13-2004, 07:24 AM

Hi Hendrik!

I've been trying to follow this thread somewhat. There is some excellent information here. I want to congratulate you for ignoring the HFY guys that are trying to turn this thread into just another big politicial argument. Just because you are stating things that you believe that are contrary to what they have been taught, they feel the need to jump and start the personal attacks on you. Please continue to ignore them and post what you think. What you have been saying jives very well with what I have been taught in the past.

Duende, Canglong, etc.
All you HFY guys should be ashamed of the pure venom and ill-will you have displayed in the posts on this thread. My opinion of your family has dropped another notch as a result. Would GM Gee approve of the spiteful attacks in the last several posts here from your group?

Keith

duende

02-13-2004, 07:41 AM

KPM,

It is Hendrick who is once again using his clumsy misinterpretations of HFY knowledge and spreading BS.

Ashamed for not letting him get away with it.... Not likely.

You ought to be ashamed for being so naive and giving him merit.

KPM

02-13-2004, 08:02 AM

Originally posted by duende
KPM,

It is Hendrick who is once again using his clumsy misinterpretations of HFY knowledge and spreading BS.

Ashamed for not letting him get away with it.... Not likely.

You ought to be ashamed for being so naive and giving him merit.

---Let me ask one more time.....regardless of what you think of Hendrik and what he has to say.....would GM Gee approve of the spiteful attacks in this thread coming from members of the HFY family?

Keith

Jim Roselando

02-13-2004, 08:30 AM

Hey Paul!

Cai's major training is Wuji Zhuang standing!

Book number two in that series is nothing short of fantastic!

Duende,

I am amazed at how gullible people are here... You are a Grandmaster of one thing Hendrik. The Grandmaster of Bull****. And it looks like you got a few discples here...

That comment is extremely rude and insulting to those of us who appreciate (and understand) Hendriks posts. This is a technical conversation and if you do not appreciate it you do not have to participate.

Regards,

jonp

02-13-2004, 08:43 AM

fundamentalists loose on the forum...

Phenix

02-13-2004, 08:46 AM

Victor,

When you wrote..."By Yi (will or mind) he meant that in practicing boxing, every moment must be guided by a certain idea..."

You entered a whole new realm of ESOTERIC discussion that I don't believe should be engaged in on a public forum...------V

Actually, that is not my words, but qoute from the same web above.

The YiChuan people, xing yee people, and the Taiji people has been practiced that since their ancestors. As in the taiji classical is said "it is in the yee, not in the qi..."

So, you are right it is a different realm but it is always there, however we dont look at them closely.

In WCK, as it said " kuen choong sum fatt" or strike issue from heart, it is also entering this realm.

Be careful once in this realm, Hendrick...Many karmic repercussions can follow you here that you did not necessarily bargain for.-------V

Thanks. you are right.

One side, WCK got challenge by Grapper for take down, the otherside, Yee Chuan people has using the Yi for training. Where do WCK stand, if we not get into the realm of intuition or strike issue from heart

In Buddhism's Avatamsaka Sutra, it is said " if people wants to understand all the Buddha of past, present, and future, comtemplate the characteristics/nature of Phenomenon, everything creates by heart"

I just hope we all open our heart. We know WCK has the technology. we also know, we can do good to the world. As it was told in the lotus sutra something like :

the buddha promises excelent magic luxury to his students . when he ask them to come out from the dangerous burning house ,and at the end he give those lux things to them when they came out; even the extra bonus--- the enlightenment mind seal, the prespective of the buddha wisdom.
And, the students give up those luxury because they have posses the wisdom. they understand wisdom to serve living being constructively is the path. not those who is number one or the lux stuffs or thier magic skill -- those are just tools to do good, not indulge in.

Perhaps, the ancestor of us who create SLT is exactly set us up the same way, give us the fighting skill, lead us into "strike issue from heart" and at the end, the real goal is to lead us into the wisdom of serving others to do good like spring---- fill with light and warm. light is wisdom and warm is compassionate. Only then, at that stage the transformation of SLT completed.

I think this is an information era, a high degree of knowledge is needed for WCK to grow into " strong in its martial art and practice compassionate and constructive growth towards living beings." without the noblelity, we will not grow out of our own animal state and suffer.

THOUGHTS ARE THINGS...(This is the alchemy you seek)...-----V

You are right. Thoughts are certainly things, we brought things like cell phone to this world from our/design engineer's thoughts . but that is not the untimate. that is just a part of the process of creation.

to be able to create is the final goal of the alchemy.

and i am asking, can we create ----spring which grow everything, instead of "I am number one", or "kill the qing with WCK"?

in addition, the thought also can create our health---- there is where the qi, chakra stuffs come in to play....

If there is karmic for creation which it must be, then, I choose to create a karmic of deliver a massage to WCNers ----

"SLT , no question, has advance ma within it , but it is equal or more important that we live in compassionate contructive and peace towards other living beings.

we need to end the hatret which create by the story of Anti-Qing or I am number one, for those thoughts become pain and suffering. and effect our health if we constantly think so. Thoughts and choice focus and distribute the energy. and that is the begining of creation----- kuen choong sum fatt"

Just some thought

I think I better stop to post in this subject since the message deliver.

PaulH

02-13-2004, 08:50 AM

Hiya Jim,

Wow! Quite a few fireworks to wake me up all day! Folks, let be civil to each other. There is no need to call people with unsavory names or labels. You have the right to call reasons and arguments to your cause. But really, name calling is out of thread!

Regards,
PH

duende

02-13-2004, 09:10 AM

Paul,

You guys had a discussion going. By all means, that's fine by me. There was no reason for Phoenix to bring up my lineage's technical knowledge other then as a part of his slander campaign.

He does not know what Bai Jong means, and he does not know what Yi Ngh Jahn Chiuh Mihn Jeui Yihng means. He does not have any CK or BG.

That is fact. Plain and simple.

I for one find him to be nothing more than a mumbling idiot, but hey... If you all think he has some ancient chinese secret to impart... that's your own trip.

Have your discussion. But be fore-warned. Everytime Hendrick trys to say mis-info about us, I will correct him.

jonp

02-13-2004, 09:10 AM

true true

i for one have been enjoying following the discussion

i take any information i find useful for my own
development and keep it - anything else i simply disregard
i dont climb to the top of my mountain and
p*ss all over it, thats about as constructive as chasing hands

jon

Ernie

02-13-2004, 09:14 AM

duende
[[Ernie,

I've scene this behavior before from his colleagues. In that Phoenix read something. Made his own translation. And therefore thinks he knows what it means. In both cases , their actual awareness of what the true meaning was very very low. And somewhat humorous if you actually knew the real meaning.]]]

----- if this is true then there is no need to take pot shots , if you have a greater understanding , simply post your information in a clear simple fashion , and let the information speak for itself , that's the cool thing about the truth and facts and skill these things stand out , and there is no need to hide behind the cloak and dagger mentality , if you see holes in the infromation about the power generation of the wing chun body , then by all means share in plain english , this way we can all move on together ----
----------------------------------------------------------------
[[[[This goes beyond that though. As I truly feel he is being dis-respectful to the art of what most people consider real WC by his latest posts.]]]]
----real wing chun / pure wing chun smoke and mirriors , i only see training mehtods and attribute development , and combat application so i doubt i will be led astray by fantasy , but if ou really care about other just lay it down , how do you train it ,how do you develop it , and so on------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[[[[He's no Kung Fu man... Any real Master would not give him the time of day. It is only on this board that people get suckered in by him. Real Buddist Masters from China think he's wondering at best. We've shown them his writings just for a laugh.]]]]]

-----there are no kung fu men or real masters just men that trained in a fashion that gave them skill , no need for hero worship , i see anything as attainable as long as the training method is clear and progressive , that's why things like history , martial art quaker mindsets trying ti live in the past illusion stuff makes me laugh , strip it down to it's bare essentials , focus on the timing ,speed ,power , adaptability and mental intent . and leave the who did what when and why for shaw brothers movies
this thread is about the wing chun body and application what can you add to that , if your nature is truly one of concern for others , then share your view

Phenix

02-13-2004, 09:29 AM

Originally posted by Ernie

hendrik
[even the transition is within "balance ]

this is very true , but why do so many lack the ability to glide ....

may be because they dont understand resultant force..and perhaps dont sense the vectors existance, but force thing with will ... IMHO

Ernie

02-13-2004, 09:37 AM

hendrik
may be because they dont understand resultant force..and perhaps dont sense the vectors existance, but force thing with will ... IMHO

so then we have come full cycle to really be able to issue power from a non static position you must also be able to '' accept what comes '' and understand what it is telling you '' listen '' before you yell
perhaps another day and thread we can break down the accepting and listening aspect :)

canglong

02-13-2004, 09:46 AM

originally posted by hendrik
By Yi (will or mind) he meant that in practicing boxing, every movement must be guided by a certain idea. So you agree with Yi just not Hung Fa Yi .
originally posted by hendrik
There no need for Baijong or recovery steps because every steps is already within balance or Zhong which is ready for any engage. You preach about zhong and mispeak about 5 line theory and center line concepts.
originally posted by duende
YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT BAI JONG IS. No truer words were ever written on this board.

Keith,
No HFY members came into this discussion until invited by hendrik with his discussion of HFY concepts which he has no knowledge of, hendrik shines this spotlight on himself discussing the nature of Bia jong when he has no expereince to speak of because he can read the words does not mean he has experienced the meaning. Unfortunate that when he is corrected you take offense to this truth. Why not just ask him for his understanding of the term bia jong, no wait I will ...hendrik explain your understanding of the true nature of bia jong as practiced in Hung Fa Yi.

Phenix

02-13-2004, 09:55 AM

Originally posted by Ernie
hen

so then we have come full cycle to really be able to issue power from a non static position you must also be able to '' accept what comes '' and understand what it is telling you '' listen '' before you yell
perhaps another day and thread we can break down the accepting and listening aspect :)

Ernie,

even our own arms have to communicate with our own legs, imho.

Sure, we can break things down now because we have lots of technology being taken apart and clear up.

it is no longer magic but intent with proper focus/intend adding to proper 2 or multi-way communication of the whole body and environment.

See, when that happen, the picture is similar to the transformation of water into any shape. resultant force itself is also communication--- it has its own life as a fragment and identity in a whole... so signal communocation and power line transportation is one.

similar to USB 2 where power / data communication is one and high speed. It doesnt go through the cpu but has its own inteligent to adapt once the cpu give and instruction / intent to execute.

It is that USB 2 type of technology I am taking about. not those serial interface stuffs with protocall and protocall and always needs the cpu to process information and putting execution in wait states.

You see the picture? yes, i intend to go Matrix way of communication. otherwise, if i tell the next generation---- Laotzu said, dao can be named is not dao.... the Pokemon generation will laugh and said what the heck you talking about.

so, we can substitute the word " intuition " with scanning. we can scan energy distribution of an object..... even a picture to know.... because we can also emulate the energy pattern beside scanning.... in the ancient time, there is an idea of using your art to defeat you. with scanning and emulation and synthesis... we are one step closer to that

So, the mission is attain it and describe it with Matrix picture. once they see the picture they can synthesis it and grow for themself. we cannot communicate like hundreds of years ago . time has changed technology has grown, physical world environment has changed.... we can no longer go back. we cannot stop in the past and stop growing... it is about creation, but not playing GOD, because we understand without others living in peace we will not exist.

LoL, when high tech meet with WCK in silicon valley. wild things created. :D

desertwingchun2

02-13-2004, 10:21 AM

Originally posted by KPM

Duende, Canglong, etc. All you HFY guys should be ashamed of the pure venom and ill-will you have displayed in the posts on this thread. My opinion of your family has dropped another notch as a result.

Keith

Kieth, don't make it appear as though you are defending Hendrick. Your posts on the WCML speak for themselves. Your opinion of HFYWC is well known. You are definetly one of the masses who gossip and contribute to the negativty on that list. The two faces of KPM is a subtle rouse that people need to be aware of. Therefore, "My opinion of [you] has dropped another notch as a result."

-David

duende

02-13-2004, 10:29 AM

Ernie,

Without Bai Jong, you have nothing. You have no grounding, no structure, no target, no focus, no awareness of your oponents oncomming energy. Nothing. And.... There's a hell alot more to it than that.

To say that there is no need for Bai Jong is the most idiotic thing a WC person could say imo.

In every single fight I've been in since learning WC... It is my Bai Jong structure and concepts that made the fight end before it could really begin.

Tecniques are great.... but without the underlying knowledge that makes those techniques work. You have nothing.

AndrewS

02-13-2004, 10:32 AM

Hendrick,

I see what you're saying- I am the center, you are the center, we are the center- assuming one prevents recognizing another. Nonetheless, each must be studied to be able to flow between them. Using a certain skill is different from attaining it.

The Yi Chuan thing- Rene Latosa explained it best- 'have a little forward feeling, not moving, but almost like you're just about to throw up'. The man has motion in stillness and stillness in motion pinned.

Victor,

your thinking and mine are along very similar lines. Something I've been playing with lately- keeping the line from my CoG to my line to ground maximally mobile between my legs (and, in grappling to whatever I'm using for base), attempting to perceive that line in my partner, then attempting to lock that line by compression or overextention, and controlling which part of the foot it's going into, as a setup for emitting force. The weird (and cool) byproduct of this is that it makes my partner become more 'substantial' and much easier to shock.

Ernie,

?Sunday?

HFY people,

You've succeeded in lowering the tone. Broken fingers would be a public service.

Andrew

reneritchie

02-13-2004, 10:47 AM

The way I currently look at it, you have expansion and contraction from the center, rotation around, on, or into the center, project from the center, and creation/destruction of centers. These are pretty much summed up in SLT, CK, and BJ (or for Hendrik, SLT section 1, 2, and 3).

I think Andrew raises a valuable point about the center, in use, being a dynamic combination of two individual centers, almost an articulation so to speak, and while that grants manipulation, it does so for both.

desertwingchun2

02-13-2004, 10:48 AM

"----- if this is true then there is no need to take pot shots , ... simply post your information in a clear simple fashion , and let the information speak for itself , that's the cool thing about the truth and facts and skill these things stand out " - Ernie

That's a good idea Ernie! Let's see one example of "Hendrick's" knowledge.

" from shape, to distance, to energy, to fighting stratergy, to mind directing... I think we need to take a part everything , examine them both in a single ..." - Hendrick

Single:

"In Siu Nim Tau training a myiad of three dimensional space and time tools were identified and trained." - Mastering Kung Fu p.131

"....and complex relationship form. otherwise, we will be screw in chaos or over idealistic simplified."- Hedrick

Complex:

"Chum Kiu takes takes these tools and merges them into five arrays (called Ng Jan Chiu Min Jeui Ying) that incorporate energies needed to support proper strategies and tactics for combat."

"so, the open close.... cannot be view as a single monotonous subject." - the open, close.. all exist in the same instant," - Hendrick

Same instant:

"Awareness of the five arrays is a tool to return to the reality of the moment rather than focus on the illusion of a predetermined cycle." - Mastering Kung Fu p.135

-David

Phenix

02-13-2004, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by AndrewS
Hendrick,

I see what you're saying- I am the center, you are the center, we are the center- assuming one prevents recognizing another. Nonetheless, each must be studied to be able to flow between them. Using a certain skill is different from attaining it.

Yup, enter into non duality.

as osense said, like the moonlight, envelop your opponent, physically, spiritually, until there is no seperation between you....

AndrewS

02-13-2004, 10:59 AM

Hey Rene,

hence, the 'soft' thing- don't let them know you, while you know them.

Later,

Andrew

P.S. Thanks for the summary, I've been tight for time and haven't had a chance to type of my notes yet to return the favor.

desertwingchun2

02-13-2004, 11:02 AM

" ... even our own arms have to communicate with our own legs, imho." - Hendrick

"Yi Sau Daai Geuk, Yi Geuk Daai Sau - Use Hand Lead Foot, Use Foot Lead Hand" - Mastering Kung Fu - p.211

And you say that's your opinion? I say that "opinion" came from the Kuen Kuit section of the glossary !!! HAHAHAHA

Like Ernie said ....

" ... let the information speak for itself , that's the cool thing about the truth and facts and skill these things stand out "

-David

reneritchie

02-13-2004, 11:08 AM

Andrew, I liken it to a draw-bridge where we can lower it to let our force out, and raise it to let the bastids force fall into the mote :)

And no worries, my pleasure, and thanks in advance :)

duende

02-13-2004, 11:38 AM

Originally posted by desertwingchun2
" ... even our own arms have to communicate with our own legs, imho." - Hendrick

"Yi Sau Daai Geuk, Yi Geuk Daai Sau - Use Hand Lead Foot, Use Foot Lead Hand" - Mastering Kung Fu - p.211

And you say that's your opinion? I say that "opinion" came from the Kuen Kuit section of the glossary !!! HAHAHAHA

Like Ernie said ....

" ... let the information speak for itself , that's the cool thing about the truth and facts and skill these things stand out "

-David

It's easy to paraphrase and plagurize... but real learning and true understanding. That's the real task at hand.

KPM

02-13-2004, 11:48 AM

Keith,
No HFY members came into this discussion until invited by hendrik with his discussion of HFY concepts which he has no knowledge of, hendrik shines this spotlight on himself discussing the nature of Bia jong when he has no expereince to speak of because he can read the words does not mean he has experienced the meaning.

---Does the HFY family think it has the market cornered on the use of the term "Bai Jong?" The term was used often in the YMWCK that I learned. It meant only to be in a "ready position" and did not have all the connotations that the HFY method seems to assign to it. So what Hendrik said about having no need for Bai Jong made perfect sense to me in that context. To me it implied that one can move and react from any position or circumstance and that one does not have to "get set" in order to "go." Maybe you were just misunderstanding what he was getting at. KPM

Unfortunate that when he is corrected you take offense to this truth.

--Whose "truth"? Did you ever stop to think that it is the way that this "correction" is given that offends people? I will ask for a THIRD time....would GM Gee approve of the spiteful attacks launched by the HFY family on this thread? KPM

Keith

KPM

02-13-2004, 12:05 PM

Kieth, don't make it appear as though you are defending Hendrick.

---Why not? I AM defending Hendrick! The recent HFY personal attacks upon him here were unjustified, in poor taste, and offensive. If you disagree with what he has to say, that state why and present technical information to back it up. KPM

Your posts on the WCML speak for themselves.

--In what way? I have nothing to hide. I, like many others, have a problem accepting most of the HFY legends as factual history when I am not shown the references to back them up. KPM

The two faces of KPM is a subtle rouse that people need to be aware of.

---Huh? That makes no sense at all. Like I said, I'm not hiding anything. What "two faces" are you talking about? What "subtle rouse" do you think I am presenting? KPM

Therefore, "My opinion of [you] has dropped another notch as a result."

---I could care less. I'm not the one speaking for an entire lineage and making it look bad. It seems rather interesting that the attacks started on Hendrick, and when I came to his support, I end up attacked as well. What I said in support of Hendrick has nothing to do with anything I ever posted on the WCML. I post here to point out that personal attacks are unneeded and out of line.....and what do you know....I come under personal attack myself. Seems par for the course. KPM

Keith

duende

02-13-2004, 12:09 PM

KPM,

Don't concern yourself about what our GM thinks of our behavior. We come from an extremely traditional Kung Fu school. We have our own ways of dealing with our own affairs, and quite frankly, it's none of your business.

Pulling weeds out of a garden does not constitute bad behavior. On the contrary, letting someone post distorted and slanderous misinformation on our theories and concepts can only be considered disrepectful to our generations past, and our system itself. This is not unique to us. Any KF school that follows the traditional ways would act in the same manner.

And while you may have Bai Jong as a term. The context it was used in, was undoubtably referring to Mastering Kung Fu. And therfore our system.

canglong

02-13-2004, 12:15 PM

keith,
The truth that these are not spiteful attacks just kind corrections and I doubt that Grandmaster Gee would have any problem with that.

PaulH

02-13-2004, 12:15 PM

Rene,

Great summary! Thanks! My limited understanding of opening and closing of the body so far is the expansion and contraction of the body that you mention.

Gentlemen,

We can talk back and forth on personal issues to a greater hurt of our own. This is better settled on private communication. I'm tired fighting. Let continue to roll on the theme of this fascinating thread at least for a little while!

Regards,
PH

Phenix

02-13-2004, 12:41 PM

Hi Paul,

so, open. close .... are not simple monotone vector.... they are a resultant.... IMHO resultant force intuition or clamping the pillow is needed to understand this. :D

I am the number one advocate for firm polo pillow clamping. the oh buy a matress too to "see" what kind of resultant force one needs to balance when one does a strike or a move, do your SLT on top of it.

You might think I am joking. No it is not. stand on the matress and do a strike or SLT and see for yourself what "balance" or Zhong means under the amplified of the air matress.

What make you think you can handle your own resultant force combine with others in a dynamic momentum transfer? test it in the matress.

Certainly they dont have this in Shao Lin:

http://216.136.224.156/mattressco/lafoma.html

hahahah, I am the number one, pillow matress train WCner. :D

Rene, I told you so, Ng Mui is a gal. and WCK was invented by a Gal. the power of WC body is tested with pillow and spring matress. :D

Oh, I forgot, YSK did practise his strike with cotton as I heard from the oriental, dont know if it is true.

We have come a long way with all those soft stuffs! :D

Zhuge Liang

02-13-2004, 12:43 PM

Hi Alex,

Without Bai Jong, you have nothing. You have no grounding, no structure, no target, no focus, no awareness of your oponents oncomming energy. Nothing. ...

To say that there is no need for Bai Jong is the most idiotic thing a WC person could say imo.

Da-amn, that's a pretty strong opinion. And you are certainly entitled to it. But I know more that a few people who don't "bai jong" who certainly don't have "nothing." For instance, when I worked out with Ernie and Gary, they did not "bai jong." But even if I were high on the highest quality crack freshly imported from South America, I would not dream of claiming they had nothing. Hell, my own instructor doesn't "bai jong", and I've yet see someone who've met and felt him personally claim that he has nothing.

Of course, I myself don't bai jong, so my opinions may be skewed. But if I indeed "have nothing" because I don't bai jong, then at least I'm in good company.

Just some change,

Regards,
Alan

desertwingchun2

02-13-2004, 12:59 PM

Originally posted by duende

It's easy to paraphrase and plagurize... but real learning and true understanding. That's the real task at hand.

That's definetly the truth !!!!!!

JamesHFYofAZ

02-13-2004, 01:12 PM

We can talk back and forth on personal issues to a greater hurt of our own. This is better settled on private communication. I'm tired fighting. Let continue to roll on the theme of this fascinating thread at least for a little while!
Its funny you said that, because this is exactly what I see. The same principles in which we have descussed, just on a differint level. It seems that the comments from some are upsetting but in reality the truth has not even been described. You say to quit, and others say they know what is not known. I say one should qiut when one does not know and that is why the words are not responded to with light but ignored w/ ignorance.:eek: How much wisdom is behind the words? Touch the hand and one will see the wisdom, hear the wisdom, and feel the wisdom. Some will not touch, and they will never grow. If one new the history (truth) of there opponents then one can not speculate just understand. From understanding come enlightenment, and from enlightenment comes harmony, after all this its still just reality. Some have chosen there path and made it clear to others. As for the rest of us realist, the path is not in ones control when in reality. "learn to except what comes and send of what goes" I see all this happening just not in physical form!
back to the topic ahand; Same light just a differant Watt!
Just my thoughts!:)
"One more thing"- the uncle:

The recent HFY personal attacks upon him here were unjustified, in poor taste, and offensive. I see no personal attacks on any other lineages from this person, so what is that? personal!!! Again I ask that if one does not know and understand there true opponent, they should do better investigation with (open) mindedness to truth. These were not attacks, but deffinces, not in poor taste but in truth, and not offensive if true reality is known. If a being say one and self says 1 is ther a differance or just two levels of understanding. If one wants tecnical information then one should read the book. that were others get there info, books and other families, with no crididation to the sorces. I owe my knowledge to three families all come from sothern shoalin. Hung Fa Yi is the major sorce of my understandings as well as the YM and CS have there hand in the training. Just one view with both eyes (open)!

duende

02-13-2004, 01:15 PM

Allan,

I was referring to the context with in which was originally presented. (ie Mastering KF, and the five battle arrays).

Obviously we have different understandings of what Bai Jong means.

And there are situations where your time and space might not allow for a proper Bai Jong. For example, a Fau Kiu attack, where you are forced directly into Jit Kiu, or if you are really caught off guard into a Wu Ma stage.

But in typical engagement scenarios, (when you are aware of an oncomming attack) Bai Jong for us sets up all the other timeframes (battle arrays).

What I posted earlier was in my opinion ( I stated that) And I didn't mis-use any other WC lineage's principles or understandings to promote my own.

So.... I'm fine with us having differences of opinion. And it's no news flash to me that you don't use Bai Jong.

desertwingchun2

02-13-2004, 01:16 PM

Originally posted by KPM

........ I post here to point out that personal attacks are unneeded and out of line.....and what do you know....I come under personal attack myself. Seems par for the course. KPM

Keith

I see, so when you said ...

"All you HFY guys should be ashamed of the pure venom and ill-will you have displayed in the posts on this thread. My opinion of your family has dropped another notch as a result. "

that was part of the solution? Practice what you preach.

-David

PaulH

02-13-2004, 01:19 PM

Thanks, James. You said your piece. With one eye shut to whatever offends us, let move on to the greener pasture. Ha! Ha!

Regards,
PH

JamesHFYofAZ

02-13-2004, 01:29 PM

Oow! I didn't mean to offend you just as you did not offend me. Thanks, and lets continue this descution as we first intended! Or was this the intent? Just making conversation! Plot, plot, fizzle fizzle, its all good in the end!

PaulH

02-13-2004, 01:43 PM

James,

No offense taken. Thanks. Peace and good will to ya!

Regards,
PH

Zhuge Liang

02-13-2004, 01:46 PM

Hi Alex,

I was referring to the context with in which was originally presented. (ie Mastering KF, and the five battle arrays).

I see. Let me paraphrase. So if you study HFY and/or its concepts, and you don't bai jong, then you have nothing. However, this doesn't necessarily apply to non-HFY methods. That is to say, if I don't use bai jong, I can still have something as long as I'm not making use of HFY and/or its concepts.

Obviously we have different understandings of what Bai Jong means.

Probably. I only understand it from my native Cantonese speaking standpoint.

What I posted earlier was in my opinion ( I stated that) And I didn't mis-use any other WC lineage's principles or understandings to promote my own.

Certainly, and I did not accuse you of anything more or less. After all, we can only speak for ourselves.

Thanks for clarifying,

Regards,
Alan

taltos

02-13-2004, 01:54 PM

Could we all take a deep breath and come back to this discussion with the following in mind...

No one is representing a lineage/organization/etc. unless they specifically state so or somehow hold a representative position in said lineage/organization/etc. We all represent ourselves and our understanding of our respective WC experiences.

When each person speaks for themselves, but the listener decides they are speaking for everyone, then two different experiences suddenly become two conflicting statements.

It has been said many times by many people that posts here reflect only the poster, and their understanding. Everyone seemed to indicate that they understood that, but perhaps I was wrong.

So to baseline the discussion again, before anyone gets confused or makes assumptions, WE ARE ALL ONLY SPEAKING FOR OURSELVES.

I believe the impetus for this issue stemmed from Phenix's statement "Thus, I have never convince the WCK using the 5 steps / array is the original of the WCK from the red boat." I thought we were talking about "Rise/Sink/Open/Close." And no one claimed that Bai Jong exists only in HFY. Are there any other lineages that refer to the 5 Battle Arrays? I don't know of any, so I also made an immediate connection to HFY in his words. Was I wrong in doing so?

Then we later got "We cannot close our eyes making we are number one claim." No one said that, so why throw it back into the mix? Isn't that akin to dragging old arguments into a new argument when you feel like you're being put on the defensive?

And still later... "we need to end the hatret which create by the story of Anti-Qing or I am number one." Again, no one stated either of those things, so there's no reason to bring them into the discussion. But the implication here is that an Anti-Qing art (of which HFY could be considered) and making claims of "I am number one" (which HFY has been accused of doing) is tantamount to creating hatred. Yet no "HFY person" (whatever that means) said any such thing throughout this discussion.

I am not saying the Phenix is right or wrong in these veiled statements that individually seem general and inclusive yet taken as a whole reference a particular lineage, or that any repsponses to his posts were right or wrong. That's for each reader to decide. What I'm saying is that if we want to not have "defensive" posts, there needs to be no "offensive" posts preceeding them. That's all.

I'm pretty good at playing politics, but it's something I really do despise. I'd rather not, if given the opportunity.

And, FWIW, I'm a student of the HFY system, and have never once started any arguments or fostered any ill will. If I may toot my own horn, the only responses I've ever received to my method of interaction, public or private, have been positive. So I take offense to being lumped into a statement like "All you HFY guys should be ashamed." What exactly have I done to foster shame upon myself? It's statements like these, vague generalities, that make me feel the need to be defensive, which would no doubt spiral the negativity. So I won't. I just ask that we be allowed to represent ourselves and ourselves alone.

I represent myself and MY understanding of what I have been exposed to in HFY. As do we all for our respective lineages.

-Levi

PaulH

02-13-2004, 01:56 PM

Hendrik,

The truth is I use your pillow method often to wind down from the buildup stress from working with other big boys at Gary place! It seems to help quite a bit! Ha! Ha! Now that mattress... what is it all about?

Regards,
PH

Chronos

02-13-2004, 02:22 PM

Originally posted by taltos

I represent myself and MY understanding of what I have been exposed to in HFY. As do we all for our respective lineages.

-Levi
It's annoying that there has to be this constant dialogue of recriminations. If only the other HFY posters were as restrained as you. Let's stick to a technical discussion without all the one-ups-manship of "we have it too" or "we have it and you don't."

Ernie

02-13-2004, 02:40 PM

wow i go out for few hours of sparring and you guys set off fire works :D

alex
Bai Jong give me your english interpitation , my understanding ready stance .

you may have a different view

my feelings on the subject , well any time you develop a need for something you become weakend by it , power balance speed should come with a suddeness from anywhere any time , sitting standing ,swimming and so on , it's more of a mental awareness and instant adaptability to your enviroment and current situation
this comes to me by way of experience , the reality of the srteet fights i have been in , things happen on there own time table and usually when you least expect it .

and when i play/train/spar with people i can isnstantly see the favored posture or range or approach , they sub consciencly seek it and this leaves me a clear path to dis assemble them . they fight in patterns and set rythems , if i disrupt this , the tend to have a delay , like a echo this offers a large window

now this come from my experience across the board wing chun,boxing ,stick or knife fighting , thai you name it universal hic ups .

not pointing at any family individually

so for me to need or seek a byjong / certain range / posture / mind set / what ever is a crutch that limits natural expression and adaptiveness

that being said we all have to start somewhere , we must all be robotic before we become natural :D

Savi

02-13-2004, 03:12 PM

Baai Jong in HFY may not neccesarily refer to a posture, ie a Jong Sau, or anything physical. For how it has been explained to me, it is in reference to a specific mental focus for the pre-engagement.

Whether or not a Kiu Jong (jong sau-type-posture) is presented is actually irrelevant based on what I have learned from HFY detail. That is just how a person is physically expressing him/herself at that moment in time.

But for illustration's sake, if you see in the book on pg 131, there is the diagram and idiom "Kiu Sau Saam Gwan", which could be translated as "the asking hand protects the three gwan" or more generally: "the hands protect the three bounds (heaven human earth)". This idiom helps the HFY practitioner in their mental awareness of what is going on at this timeframe. On top of that, there is another idiom on that same page referencing "You move, I hit first" in conjunction with Kiu Sau Saam Gwan. This is a tactical advantage used within Baai Jong to aide in superior positioning and reading the opponent from HFY detail. From my experience, this is quite predatory in nature.

In short, in HFY, it is more than just a ready posture.

BTW, Hendrik began his case to disprove the HFY's Ng Jan Chiu Meen Jeui Ying with his OWN perception on what he read, then subjected it to what he presumably knows. From there he tried to qualify his opinion/observation as "technical talk" and "factual evidence". Prime example of an attempt to speak as an expert about something he does not understand - only read about. ((That reminds me of another well known "master" who has done this in the past too.... strange. Anyways...))

Savi

02-13-2004, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by Chronos

It's annoying that there has to be this constant dialogue of recriminations. If only the other HFY posters were as restrained as you. Let's stick to a technical discussion without all the one-ups-manship of "we have it too" or "we have it and you don't." HFY posters? Chronos, everything and everyone is bound by cause and effect. I wouldn't limit your "self-restraining" comment to HFY posters.

Ernie

02-13-2004, 03:51 PM

savi
cool thanks for the break down .
along similar lines of what i have experienced , and in some cases been taught , the statment you start i finish and i start i finish , is very close to the one you stated .

some other time and thread perhaps we can share how we cultivate this mental awarness and make it adaptable through progressive drills , might be a fun chat , and keep in english please :) , for example your diagram relates to high middle low from a fixed refernce point . great on paper , but to cilitvate the skill and introduce broken rythem ,timing , elavation and angle changes in mid stride while both parties are in motion makes for a difficult day ,
that being said i know i work off some very high caliber fighters from all walks of life and there abilites are far beyond the average joe in the streets , so my reality in training is skewed by my experiences :)

again thanks for stepping up with a clear answer

as for your group and hendrik i really don't see what the big deal is you have different views so what , if your stuff works for you and his for him then ''attacks '' as you call them have no real foundation .
i train with people from this forum with different families and we have completly different idea's on some aspects of wing chun . but we share , trade and go away the better for the exchange of energy .
i think those differences make it fun . if i had every answer i would be bored .

reneritchie

02-13-2004, 03:58 PM

Paul H, no worries. Right now I'm enjoying interplaying the methods. This brings me back to the key word 'swing', if I can't go one way, I go another. I can turn in to set up turning around, contract to set up expand, create in order to destroy. In that sense, 50/50, 100/0, K1, heel, chest in, chest out, nipple-line, shoulder line, etc. all just become contexts within the range of stable geometry and nothing is fixed other than the overal strategy.

PaulH

02-13-2004, 04:08 PM

Interestingly enough, Rene, this bring me back to the water flow image of Hendrik's talk. You can't stop broken water from a dam with simple tools. I love theories and all, but they are just helpful flashes of insights on how to solve complex and very specific problems. You just can't cover all the possibilities and what ifs out there in combat. Intuition, feeling, intelligence, wisdom, physical and mental ability thus make more sense to me.

Regards,
PH

Ernie

02-13-2004, 04:09 PM

rene
i have been taught that to be '' working off then end of an action '' at it's weakest most commited point , apply your own action , and yep stances , postures , wieghting all transitional based on how you are relating '' accepting'' the energy

that's why i never got the hole argument over wieght and foot contact point . everything has a strength and weakness time and place , why be stubborn and limit one self

02-13-2004, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Cai's major training is Wuji Zhuang standing!

Book number two in that series is nothing short of fantastic!

Indeed - both excellent books. I am awaiting Jan's 3rd in the series; don't know yet when it will be out.

FWIW, Ken often tells us of his privilege in meeting and touching hands (briefly) with Master Cai. He was very impressed with Cai's skill. He is not so easily impressed, so that is really saying something. Good stuff to read and think about, even for those of us who don't have the opportunity to experience such high skills of that nature directly.

Enjoying this great thread. I need to finish catching up (just got home) and digest it some more.

Regards,
- kj

Ultimatewingchun

02-13-2004, 05:08 PM

Hendrik, Ernie:

My last post was made in the wee hours of the morning - so it was probably a bit melo-dramatic...

But let me say this much regarding the quote of Wang Xiangzhai:

..."By Yi (will or mind) he meant that in practicing boxing, every movement must be guided by a certain idea"...

This sentence contains the rudimentary outlines of a formula that could possibly lead one into a high realm of esoteric knowledge.

Thought + Breath = An Energy...that CAN work through both the etheric and the physical body - to create a TREMENDOUS generation of "physical" POWER.

But this is only the tip of the iceberg, because certain types of THOUGHT can create tremendous power in realms that are not merely physical - they can be mental, psychological, social, political, even spiritual...which go beyond the purely "physical" realm of life.

Enormous types of power that can generate enormous force, influence...and consequences.

So it is best to be prudent when discussing these matters on a public forum...beyond a certain point I, or one, would be very hesitant to go.

We haven't reached such a point as of yet - but a red flag did go off in my mind when I read the quote from Mr. Wang.

In the meantime - given all the the ugly attempts to dynamite the thread by the same old political hacks (not withstanding the good posts by KPM and Jim Roselando)...

Ernie is right - it would be an odd time for me to tap out.

The discussion has been, and can still be...very constructive.

02-13-2004, 05:18 PM

Well, I was enjoying the thread. :(
- kj

duende

02-13-2004, 05:52 PM

Alan,

I tried to be civil to you as I realize that you have popped in on this thread midway. But it appears that your real motivation is to just mince words in an attempt to cause trouble.

I suggest letting Ernie speak for himself. Especially when he is aware of what we're discussing and you are not.

BTW, it's great that Cantonese is your native tongue. But you still don't have the slightest clue about our Bai Jong and how it relates to our 5 battle timeframes.

Read Savi's post. That should chill you out.

duende

02-13-2004, 06:03 PM

Ernie,

I hope Savi's post clarifies what I was referring to about HFY Bai Jong.

As I tried explaining to Alan previously, there are times when Bai Jong gets skipped. Due to being blindsided, cold ****ed, what have you...

But you can not discuss the 5 fighting timeframes (battle arrays) without Bai Jong. It is like denying a whole part of reality.

And FWIW, I figured you'd know that my last post was referring to HFY theory, and not you or your beliefs. Maybe I should have made that clear, but I figured it was a given.

Ernie

02-13-2004, 06:13 PM

duende
no prob man,

i understand your point in respect to the 5 array concept , like anything there needs to be a refernce point , the byjong when time and space allow is your refernce point .

not that i'm pretending to have a deep understanding of your concept but i do have a deep understanding of motion ,timing balance and range , so i use that filter .

just for the record i am an equal oppertunity thief , if i like the way some one phrases something or if the have a better way of describing something i will ''absorb'' so don't be shocked i use bits and pieces of this or that .
i will learn from all of you and do my best to give back my view :D

Ultimatewingchun

02-13-2004, 06:22 PM

You know...the amount of crap that some of the usual suspects are trying to throw around in order to undermine the thread is really getting out of hand - and I think that Keith (KPM) said it all when he said:

"Does the HFY Family think it has the market cornered on the term Bai Jong ?"

No Keith...SOME HFY people...probably much to the chagrin of what Garrett Gee would like his followers to believe...

SOME OF THESE PEOPLE THINK THEY HAVE THE MARKET CORNERED ON...EVERYTHING...THAT CONCERNS WING CHUN.

So once again I will implore all the rest of you who are interested in continuing the interesting discussion that was taking place...

to totally IGNORE...IGNORE...IGNORE...the ugly posts meant to undermine the discussion.

IGNORE any and all posts that are a personal attack - on Hendrik -on yourself - on whoever.

They are trying to bring things to a feverish pitch so that the whole thread gets deleted....

THAT'S THEIR GAMEPLAN....SO IGNORE THEM.....TOTALLY.

Ultimatewingchun

02-13-2004, 06:55 PM

AndrewS:

Yes...indeed we are thinking along very similar lines. Good post.

Hendrik, Ernie:

While doing the first section of SLT (ie. sending out tan sao) - I have noticed that there are two ways to try and regulate one's energy...in direct relation to the two types of energy use we were discussing much earlier in the thread.

1) The "sending out" of the energy to the arm/elbow/hand/fingers
is the energy needed to STRIKE at the "limb-only" distance range - AND the closer range that Ernie quoted Gary Lam about (ie.- the po-pai to pushing type energy moves)....TO BE ACCOMPANIED BY EXHALING THE BREATH...(and visualization of the chi moving through your body)...

2) During the same "sending out the tan sao" move one can also do the REVERSE: Send the energy back into the body and right down into the ground...WHILE INHALING THE BREATH...which allows for a "lock-down" type of energy to ward off and disperse into the ground the energy your opponent might be using to try and displace, unbalance, and uproot you - leading to a sweep, throw, or attempted takedown on his part.

AndrewS: An example of attempting to lock the line by compression ? (I would think so...what do you say ?)

reneritchie

02-13-2004, 07:47 PM

PaulH,

If possibilities tend towards the infinite, then we are left with 2 choices:

1) Try and come up with individual solutions which can be repeated when needed out of necessity must also then tend towards the infinite; or

2) Understand the conditions and have an overal strategy which allows a few robust solutions to be replies to almost all situations

It strikes me as oddly parallel the cruise-missile approach. Hard wiring a target into a missile and launching it would require computation to a paralytic degree and still more than likely result in a miss at the end (due to the butterfly effect, among other things). On the other hand, launching something in the general direction and giving it enough intelligence to make minor corrections along the path can result in scary terminal accuracy.

In part, this is the trancendance of artistry to me, for an artist can paint with ease what is beyond the workable ability of a mathemetician to plot.

Phenix

02-13-2004, 07:52 PM

Victor,

Great.

As for SLT, there are energy flow via the 12 medirians .... ect....

Zhuge Liang

02-13-2004, 08:43 PM

Hi Alex,

I tried to be civil to you as I realize that you have popped in on this thread midway. But it appears that your real motivation is to just mince words in an attempt to cause trouble.

:confused: Forgive me for being dense, but can you point out where I was "mincing words in an attempt to cause trouble?" If my interpretation of what you said was incorrect, please correct me. This is a public discussion forum after all. And if you could refrain from taking wild stabs at what my "motivation" might or might not be, that'd be great.

I suggest letting Ernie speak for himself. Especially when he is aware of what we're discussing and you are not.

I wasn't speaking for Ernie. I was commenting on a statement you made that I found questionable. This is a public forum right? If you have the right to claim "Without Bai Jong, you have nothing", then I don't see why I don't have the right to challenge it.

But I do appreciate the fact that you clarified it. Thank you.

BTW, it's great that Cantonese is your native tongue. But you still don't have the slightest clue about our Bai Jong and how it relates to our 5 battle timeframes.

You're right, I don't.

Read Savi's post. That should chill you out.

Consider me chilled :cool:

Regards,
Alan

John Weiland

02-14-2004, 01:56 AM

Originally posted by kj

Indeed - both excellent books. I am awaiting Jan's 3rd in the series; don't know yet when it will be out.

Er, never apparently. :) I assume you're referring to Jan Diepersloot's Warriors of Stillness series. His student and sometimes Wing Chun sidai of ours (not sure of the term in your case, but you get the drift), Eric, whom you know, assures me that even though the book is referenced as third of the Warriors of Stillness series, he has no plans to write the third book. Be happy with the first and second books, I guess.

Diepersloot teaches in Walnut Creek, CA. They do a lot of standing in class. :D There's a lot of carryover IMO to Wing Chun in terms of posture basics.

Regards,

Chango

02-14-2004, 02:48 AM

Hello all,
It is very clear that the "HFY posters" would not have posted on this thread in the first place! Nothing would have been said if Hendrick did not reference the "Mastering Kung fu" book. It is well understood that although many Wing Chun systems share many of the same terms but the meanings and thier uses are far different. In "HFY" there is a very precise meaning to each detail. Of course I'm not saying others are not as precise. I'm simply saying that the HFY standard is very clear and if off by a little. You have missed it and will have trouble from that point on. So to make the references that he did to what has been offered in the "Mastering Kung fu" demonstrates only a attempt to confuse and misinform. It has been made clear that Hendrick speaks only for himself and should not speak for others. It is a known fact that members of his claimed Kung fu family take issue with the fact that he attempts to represent thier family.

That having been said the socalled "HFY group" should step up and stop Hendricks misinformation and further disrespect not only of the HFY family but other members and families of the Wing chun comunity. If he continues to do so he should expect the same exposure every time.

Victor,
<snip>No Keith...SOME HFY people...probably much to the chagrin of what Garrett Gee would like his followers to believe...

---"Followers" we are not followers you really should read some of the post we offer. We address the knowlege of the system and we pay proper respect to the Grand master and amcestors of our lineage. We do not "follow" him he generously offers us the wisdom and knowlege of the system in it's beautifully preserved state. It is something that demands first hand experience. If you heard yourself talk about GM Cheung it is clear that you follow him. Maybe that is your problem? You seem to want to imitate him. So at that point the best you can is second best. How many times do I hear " he taught Bruce lee" or "he beat up 20 guys at once etc...." This does him a great diservice becuase GM Cheung is much more then just that. He represents the knowlege offered by TWC. So let's not go down that path please.

<snip>SOME OF THESE PEOPLE THINK THEY HAVE THE MARKET CORNERED ON...EVERYTHING...THAT CONCERNS WING CHUN.

-- Wow! (Ben Stein's voice) I think it is clear to most where you stopped reading this thread. please catch up. Read Savi's post and attachment. it will help you understand. BTW Hendrick made refence to a "HFY" book. Some one had to let him know he misunderstood what is meant by Bai Jong in that particular book.

<snip>So once again I will implore all the rest of you who are interested in continuing the interesting discussion that was taking place...
to totally IGNORE...IGNORE...IGNORE...the ugly posts meant to undermine the discussion.

-- With that being said you are calling for "the rest " of us to ignore your post. As we have moved beyond all of this in this thread. Please catch up before spouting off your childish display of attempting to take your ball and go home because someone doesn't choose to play the way you want to play!!!! come on man that was so grade school of you. Please let us move on.

Chango

Redd

02-14-2004, 03:44 AM

Originally posted by duende
KPM, We come from an extremely traditional Kung Fu school. We have our own ways of dealing with our own affairs, and quite frankly, it's none of your business.

Your school must be very popular. :rolleyes:

S.Teebas

02-14-2004, 08:22 AM

As for SLT, there are energy flow via the 12 medirians .... ect....

Can you expand on this please? Is there any diagram you can show us these 12 meridians and the flow of energy through them? Also, is this related to charakas, and connecting them etc? (ie, to allow the correct flow)

My understranding is the correct WC structure will allow this to be activated.

Any thoughts?

Phenix

02-14-2004, 09:53 AM

I was watching a Ming/ Qing historical record program last night.

some how, I got this sight while watching.

In my opinion, if one link the so called x steps of fighting stratergy with the Lee Man-Mau history record..ect, one can see it support each other well. and it might be able to explain why things and stories of WCK exist as it is.

So, it was 1850's, Lee Man-mao who was a white crane weng chun practitioner started the revolution of red boat, they face two problems

1, running out of costume,
2 they needs to train their new recuite "army".

So,

1, To solve the costume problem, what they do is using the red bandana to substitude for thier costumes. this problem solved.

2, the army training is a more complicated issue, in the red boat there are advance martial artist, but as all of them understood, advance martial art needs years to cultivate and high degree of knowledge. So it is not practical to train these new army in the artistic/philosophical way as they had gone through.

So, what they do was created a structural version of colective technics for this group of people.
They create step by steps programing course technical training, which can cover the corse in a short period of time with aim to fulfill the goal --- fighting.

Same with all team training up to todays coorporate team training , to boost the spirit of the trainee, the legend of their leader, the legend of shaolin, the Damo, the rituals...the magic believe... ect were told/practice. the same practice is practice, similar to the record of history on Tien Dee Hui or the secrete society which recorded in Chim bo-chi's history of secrete socienty study. An ofcorse, this step by step training has its potential even it is not the same with the art of the redboat artist.

And time passed, so, different members of that red boat, Lee uprising remember history in different ways.
It is a reality, All exist in the past, but remembered different. the artists' decendent always goes the artistic/philoshopical way, the army's decendent always goes the army training way.

And ofcorse time passed, things evol, things changes, and this is become a part of history when things continuos to evol and grow,

So why is this got todo with the open, close......
It has alots to do because how one percieve one's art influence one's art. ei, for Philosophical artist way, it means one thing. for the army training it means another.

Artist/philosophical embrace chaos, free grow, individual free view. as for the army training way, ask for structure programing, ritual, code, order... division/group/tribe approval...

With different background one will interplate things differently. What is reality? That depend on who sees it from which
angle.

For me, I like the artistic/philosophical way----- there is no monotonous open, close.... everything is a matter of weigthing. there is no fix order or structure, chaos is expeted. May be that is because YikKam was an artist and I got influence into this way.

and, for an artist a brush stroke is a free contnous changes of energy which beyond time and space and self. for an army, a stroke has to involve, step one, two, three...... in order and structural technics..expectation....setting by the chief.

Nothing good or bad, all different ways exist, and the totallity, they make up reality. What do you study? art or collective of technics? that will infuence your destination.

For me there is no so called popular or original WCK.
There is only, art WCK or Collective technics WCK. and collective technics WCK is a subset of ART WCK. as the history reveal itself from different angles.

Just some thought.

Ultimatewingchun

02-14-2004, 10:00 AM

Okay...So we'll substitute the words "students and grandstudents" for "followers"...

At which point everything else stays the same within my post about IGNORING those who are trying to drag the thread down...

Hendrik:

S. Teebas's request is seconded - tell us more about using the 12 meridians.

yylee

02-14-2004, 10:17 AM

Originally posted by S.Teebas

Can you expand on this please? Is there any diagram you can show us these 12 meridians and the flow of energy through them?

you mean this? (see attached)

JamesHFYofAZ

02-14-2004, 10:45 AM

Is this the (HT) meridian?
Hendrik, Are these 12 that you speak of the HT, LI, SI, PC, TW, LU, KI, UB ect....? How does this relate to this discussion, and isn't this the bases of Chinese meds? If you want me to expand on the questions I can. Please respond, I really would like to hear your view.

canglong

02-14-2004, 10:47 AM

originally posted by hendrik
I was watching a Ming/ Qing historical record program last night. some how, I got this sight while watching.
Some how huh hahahahahahaha were you reading "Mastering Kung Fu" before or after you watched the show some how I think I know were you got your inspiration. Most of your post are laughable the plagerizing of your most recents ones is just disgraceful.

Phenix

02-14-2004, 11:51 AM

Originally posted by S.Teebas

Can you expand on this please? Is there any diagram you can show us these 12 meridians and the flow of energy through them? Also, is this related to charakas, and connecting them etc? (ie, to allow the correct flow)

My understranding is the correct WC structure will allow this to be activated.

Any thoughts?

Hi ST, Victor,

complex and long story

IMO,

To reply to the question, I dont want to be potrate as I know it all , or the set I do is original....which doesnot make sense in an ever changing and growing world. I cant know it all, I have my blind spot as every one else. But, I am willing to look, to search, to admit my weakness, to share, and to dig deep in an objective sense not under my term. to hope that we all later will grow will excell.

It is important for me to clarify the above here so there is no mis-understanding when i go throught the stuffs below.

Ok, so lets use the Yik Kam's SLT 's first section which is equalvalent to Red Boat's SLT/SNT as a common straw man or vehicle for use to analize.

1, in the begining of the SLT set, 3 dimentions were adressed, namely, 1) setting of mind, 2) condition of structure/ body weight, 3) medirians/breathing.

2, these 3 dimention where then applied as the fundamental components for monitoring and adjustment of each move in the same instant. similar to 4 edge to the top of the phyramid. different angle but every angle influnce others and share the same body and summit.

So, ie, say fok sau move in YJKYM, one check /scan the 3 dimentions to "see" are they accord, adjust adaptively...

one has to know that the 3 dimentions are just indicator or model of monitoring, to help us to develop intuition/ adjustment /tuning of our condition and resultant force/energy for every instant.
knowing these 3 dimention is not the ultimate, it is just a tool a boat for crossing.

in reality, similar to pedaling a bycicle ---balancing, forwarding, steeling, stepping, adjustment, fine tune.... all happen in the same instant. one pay attention to different single components at the beging but later one "just do it", but with the intuition awareness of what needs to be done while padelling.

So, the concept of Zhong can be define here as is similar to ----while one paddling bicicle, one always in "balance", whether it is accelerate, sharp breaking, decelerate, rocky road or muddy road...... Thus, that is beyond static posting or intermidiate introductory step BaiJong.

3, now, every dimention has two phases, the ying and yang for the medirians, the non dual and dual for the "big mind", inner focus or external focus, the solid and the hollow for the structure, the inhale and exhale for the breating. and it can further expanded in to theopen/close/ rise/ sink.... (note: rise and sink consist of open and close. thus in old classic, rise and sink are wrote but include the open and close)

So, the details grow in binary form, 0, 1, 2, 4......
when we need to look into detail we zoom in by expanding.

Fok sau, which leg is solid/hollow with weight? which hand medirians are activate Ying or yang? focus in/out?.....ect if we find problem or un easiness say the strect out or shrink in, we then expand to it is shrink in upward or down ward..... one can expand /zoom in the detail until pin point the issue. well, in this trouble shooting, one also learn the details and store into one's expetience...

So, it is expected to go all the way to investigate.... instead of just take an instruction "do it this angle, the long, this line..." finished the set or just do it 30000 and wala the magic appear.
it is a continuos grow learning never ending contemplating/ investigating/ fine tunning to answer the question why which fill with great curiosity journey, it is certainly not a finished the form know tan bong fok or x amount of kiu sau and graduate training.

4, now, the above is about the fundamental brief " rule" of game.
the first journey, one standing in the parallel equal shoulder stance. this is the platform to study/investigating letting go or relaxation....or non dual...
curiously scan which part of the body/dimention is rigid/drain/stuck.....bias....ect. and adjust fine tune....... the journey.

next,
since liver medirians and ribs influence the relax.. mind/body/qi... then the path of this medirian were activate.... thus, the arm were raise.... ribs were move... spine were scan.....

then the punch jouney, the tan sau journey, the fok sau journey..... all of them is a journey. not about learning a kiu sau....
un ended journey to master oneself....
the training of core detail---- Siu Lien Tau
It is a laboratory to become and alchemist of energy.

Thus I have heard, he who gone throught this path in the old time, can snap short at a picture to tell one exactly how one applied energy and which location is in stagnation.... since they know, they cut through the others similar to going through jellow--- no resistance path effortlessly. they transform because the know the minute detail about energy....

This is where the magic is. but via intuitive training / exeperimenting and detail zoom in in SLT, not magical legend which cannotbe reach and always just live in the past.

hope this above give you a picture of what is going on....in my understanding....

yuanfen

02-14-2004, 11:55 AM

Well, I was enjoying the thread.
- kj
-----------------------------------------------------------
Me too but stuff happens on so many threads.
FWIW- IMO- awareness of Chinese (and classical Indian) body structure and energy flow structures can help with developing
an "internal" approach to wc to complement the external- but I do not think that detailed knowledge of the meridians is necessary.
When one is shown and one does a good sil lim tao- use of the structure and the meridians and the development of energy flow
occurs- it is built into the sil lim tao and is a natural process.. Doing the first section slowly and deliberately helps develop the idea, the mind, the intent and the Yi.

Phenix

02-14-2004, 12:26 PM

Originally posted by yuanfen
but I do not think that detailed knowledge of the meridians is necessary.

Joy,

Yes and no.

For example,
there is a different between actvate a set with lung medirian or liver medirian.

thus, a set to start with liver medirian to relax the body/mind/qi to achive balance energy distribution
and
a set to start with lung medirian to directly control the in take of oxigen such as the hard qigung type is different.

Some imbalace cause heart papilattion problem via long term pushing the heart qi to much, some cause hernia or depression via stagnated of liver qi via long term exterm stress.

there is a different between activate a mantra with throt chakra or crown . thus, a mantra start with A sound or Om sound has different effect.

recite this and try for yourself

Om Ma Ni Pad me hum,
or
gate gate paragate parasam gate boddhistava

manage energy differently.

start with activate the root chakra for kundalini energy will cause mind/body to be warm
or
start with open the heart chakra will cause mind/body to feel light weight

produce different result.

ABOVE THE 4TH CHAKRA REALITY ARE TIMELESS AND WEIGHTLESS SINCE IT DEAL WITH PRECEPTION.... SPACE ALSO IS NON LINEAR HERE. those who did not get that far stick with the time/space/energy concept of physical world. thus, THOUGHT IS THING is difficult for them to grasp. and, they will not see this limitation in their mind ground. Spiritual is about chaos not about structure they seek.

and ofcause, they are ultimately about balancing so they are moving towards the same goal. and if one follow a set well everything is natural.

next time pay attention to say GM Yip Man's SLT video or Shao lin practiced. check thier breathing after they do the set. see who's chest were pounding hard. Thus, one cannot equate different set to SLT.

Just some thought

Phenix

02-14-2004, 12:34 PM

YY,

The whole body/mind/energy has to be activate and flow....
then one can selectively activating....

One then can "see" throught the physical into energy flow.
and not everyone has this technology Red Boat SLT has.

Remember the key words

Inside/outside, holow/solid, Ying/Yang practice (investigate) with soft /ligth/ gradual (rou)

yylee

02-14-2004, 12:49 PM

Originally posted by Phenix
YY,

The whole body/mind/energy has to be activate and flow....
then one can selectively activating....

One then can see throught the physical into energy flow.
and not everyone has this technology Red Boat SLT has.

true, but what is the link between Yee and Chi flow? or with anything else about WC?

they run in parallel? they complement each other? they generate a PID loop that feeds analog signal back to each other, causing fuzzy logic stablization? :D

see, this is what most people may ask, "what's Chi got to do with muscle group usage and bone alignments?"

yylee

02-14-2004, 12:51 PM

Originally posted by Phenix
YY,
Ying/Yang practice (investigate) with soft /ligth/ gradual (rou)

every time I hear this (Y)ing/(Y)ang term I start feeling like my mom is calling me "dinner's ready". :D

Phenix

02-14-2004, 01:03 PM

what is the link between Yee and Chi flow?
"what's Chi got to do with muscle group usage and bone alignments?"

they run in parallel? they complement each other? they generate a PID loop that feeds analog signal back to each other, causing fuzzy logic stablization? :D ------YY

ask any one who has sexual arousal experience. they will tell you. :D

otherwise, watch a romantic unrated Hsu Chi movie to find out for yourself what is what first hand, then describe what happen in your own term. call it the chi the body heat flow the ....whatever... :D

No you dont need Chan or those secrete teaching from shaolin. it is there within you . seat on cold ice and your chi will not flow..Yi direct.....Chi got to do with muscle group usage and bone alignments will not work......:D

But I assure you

"they run in parallel? they complement each other? they generate a PID loop that feeds analog signal back to each other, causing fuzzy logic stablization?"

is not in your head at all when you watching the movie and experience it. those PID are thoughts idea.....too much.. just rent a dvd! and let those engineer take care of the pid/dsp/123... :D

Phenix

02-14-2004, 01:07 PM

Originally posted by yylee

every time I hear this (Y)ing/(Y)ang term I start feeling like my mom is calling me "dinner's ready". :D

sure free dinner for you, but you might no eat. :D

yylee

02-14-2004, 01:18 PM

so here is the leg's liver Yin (see attached)

the one above is hand's lung Yin

duende

02-14-2004, 01:22 PM

You can try climbing a mountain using a path based on what you think you know inside.

Or you can attain awareness of the physics of time space and energy, and how it relates to the human anatomy based on fact, and physical science. Awareness and utilization of Chi is then far more easy to understand, master, and far more consistent in my book.

I would much rather stand on a mountain of rock, then wander around on some earthquake prone landfill that you feel is steardy enough...

That's just me though...

Phenix

02-14-2004, 01:33 PM

Originally posted by yylee
so here is the leg's liver Yin (see attached)

the one above is hand's lung Yin

Thanks,

Yup Lung Yin not HT...

using to control the weighting of arm by control certain activation...open close...

Being there describe very clearly in Emei 12 post for more then 700years

Need that in sensing, listerning.....

SLT is direction not an answer. answer is for the past/completed issue. it cannot answer the future not yet ask question.

SLT is investigation not structure programming. never ending Investigation via curiousity where structure programming has a limit disregard how big its data based

thus, close, open,,,, are tools not sigulate monotone absolute step.

yylee

02-14-2004, 02:09 PM

Originally posted by Phenix

SLT is investigation not structure programming. never ending Investigation via curiousity where structure programming has a limit disregard how big its data based

Very true about structured programming. Depends on who you are and what you want. If you run a commerical school, you'd find it difficult to pass on an art that takes years to investigate and requires lots of self-driven efforts (Sifu can't feed you if you don't eat). Many times people come to kwoons wanting to get sometime back with their tuitions, be it a level, a belt or a medal; or certain progress within 3 months periods. May sound naive but this is the fact. Have seem enough people joining and leaving....

Hard to say what I have learned over the years, seems like more and more coming, seem to have no end, the beginning is long forgotten :D

Phenix

02-14-2004, 02:17 PM

YY,

Thus, as in other post, after I checked different sources....
I believe the is no original or popular WCK.

There is ART wck which required years and decade of investigation into the details...live with chaos which is life itself.

and

There is Colective technics WCK where structure programing is the teaching. where order, code... is expected.

colective is great for get start and art is great to journey into life.

Nothing wrong about which but thier goal is different, teaching is different...

and different people has different needs.

Check into the teaching of Wang Xiang-Zai or Osense or Mas Oyama all these great artists, taiji, emei, white crane of fujian.... you can see thier teaching evol even in thier life time... while they themself has higher and higher achivement. and after they passed away thier art keep evol...

It is very not likely there is an original in real life.... from the past to the future... it is not likely to exist.
and not likely one can inherit others because everyone has different living experience. Thus, we dont see the top musician such as Mozart or Betoven's disciple or students claim what they learn is the original way....

ART is one's own way to express reality.

yuanfen

02-14-2004, 03:50 PM

Hendrik-Some opinions---a little different drumming--

I know about the different sounds for different chakras & think I know something about balancing and the zhong.
But beginners can get totally confused....
cant do everything simultaneously-the bones, the sinews, the ligaments- still need to be aligned and trained- step by step.
Hence the importance of the little idea....mastering things -one by one..

Osensei is insightful... but good wing chun can cut through the aikido circle...when done right...different paths to knowledge-it seems to me.

There is non dualism- but there are also the realities of sansara.

Phenix

02-14-2004, 04:29 PM

ON ORIGINE

Original face is not a structure cleality but an uncondition embaracing of chaos beyond time/space/self.

Chaos is God's , Devine, Chan's order for no one can see the un born yet. clearity programing structure is a human order for that is about organizing past events.

ON ZHONG AND ISSUING ENERGY AND OPEN/CLOSE

Like pedal a bicycle, issuing energy is about step up and step down vertically while the bicycle headed forward; with the steeling by hands, direct from the heart/mind/yi. One doesnt strect hand and body forward to move the bicycle forward.

Like pedal a bicycle, if do not let go the need of standing firm on ground. One will never find balance in dynamic flow, one will never find balance or zhong.

Like pedal bicycle, raise in one leg is shink of other leg.......no solid stop or total rise or sink....

ON PRATICING SLT

Practicing SLT is analogy to padling bicycle, the feet and body genetate the force while the hands,direct from heart/mind/yee , relax/flowingly are steeling the direction, sending one's energy forward...ect. The cyclic interchange of up and down legs movement with the pendulum and spring action naturely issue, swing, and resore energy every cicle....
Curiously investigate every detail, build the intuition, adjust the balance,...fine tune.....feel every resultant force..feel every ground reaction.....keep investigating.

The rest, let nature take its corse, follow the nature.
Look Not about structure clearity / ideas... but about embarace the chaos, and one shall "see" .

easy right? :D

Ultimatewingchun

02-14-2004, 04:32 PM

Hendrik:

Your first post in response to Yuanfen (Joy) was PRICELESS...
great stuff.

And your posts that followed that one were also very good - keep up the good work.

Phenix

02-14-2004, 04:37 PM

Victor,

Thanks.

I will post what I know, some good some bad, some right, some wrong. just take what you need and correct what is wrong. so I learn too.

Phenix

02-14-2004, 04:47 PM

Originally posted by yuanfen

1, But beginners can get totally confused....
cant do everything simultaneously-the bones, the sinews, the ligaments- still need to be aligned and trained- step by step.
Hence the importance of the little idea....mastering things -one by one..

2, Osensei is insightful... but good wing chun can cut through the aikido circle...when done right...different paths to knowledge-it seems to me.

3, There is non dualism- but there are also the realities of sansara.

Joy,

1. I agree. I am trying to fill them with all sort of stuffs so when they get older, they are not as narrow as me.

2, Yup different path to the summit of a pyramid. but then, up there is non-dual. aikido's cycle is different to WCK but the "taking other's place" is the same.---- so other has no place to stay..... end up launch into the air. we are attemp the samething :D

3, after one "see" non-duality, living in this world is similar to "moon in the river" ,and the brightness and warmness of moon shine and envelop the world.

the moon is present but not there in the water. the moon is not there but present with warm and light everywhere. Samsara is our dream which we take it as reality because we dont accept reality instead of we want to force it to go our way.

That is Osense's view, A great view, I am learning from him.

PaulH

02-14-2004, 05:05 PM

Rene,

You touch on the very pulse of living art, my friend! I like your approach. When I was in High School, there was this interesting billboard poster of a juicy, 3 decked hamburger filled with vegies in my English class. It said: "Life is a hamburger; It's what you put in that counts!" I guess that is pretty much my WC philosophy and approach. You start with the simple (theories) and stuffed it with complexity (your own experience and understanding). In many ways it is like the making of a samurai sword. What you see is not a crudely mass produced piece of steel but multiple extremely fine layers of steel sheets laying on top of each other to produce that incredible sharpness. You fight very simple and yet how very complex it is when it is imbued with the immaterial stuffs that we called life and spirit of man. This is exciting for me. What you see is what you get. But what do you see? May the force be with you! Ha! Ha!

Regards,
PH

Ultimatewingchun

02-14-2004, 05:08 PM

PaulH: Nice post.

yuanfen

02-14-2004, 05:24 PM

Hendrik sez:Yup different path to the summit of a pyramid. but then, up there is non-dual.

((But one has to be are of the nature of the boulders along the way))

aikido's cycle is different to WCK but the "taking other's place" is the same.---- so other has no place to stay..... end up launch into the air. we are attemp the samething

((Good reflexive wing chun can adjust and avoid being launched-
no place to stay is a good martial objective... but wing chun can strike during the launch attempt---different from aikido. Also- osensei had his Shintoist hang ups and hierarchy- not quite non dualist. Also- even in very good aikido demos---the protagonist is often a willing and cooperative student. Life does not always give us that luxury)))

Samsara is our dream which we take it as reality because we dont accept reality instead of we want to force it to go our way.

((Dreams have consequences-cant be waved away by a wand...even boddisatvas have to help folks in working through
sansara---the bad habits and their karma dont just disappear
pronto-in martial arts one has to re learn the proper use of what we have mislearned. I agree with many things you have said-but my notes suggest where I am at...certainly not an arhat...and still have to chase some non personal"enemies" into the next life and have fun doing it. Compassion)) joy

yylee

02-14-2004, 10:41 PM

Originally posted by Phenix
just rent a dvd! and let those engineer take care of the pid/dsp/123... :D

that's "Yee Dong Shen Dao" :D

"my" current understanding of Lap Nim is to put that DVD(yee) in the tray and let the player(shen) to look after the rest.

of course my current understanding is only good for 2 weeks :D

JamesHFYofAZ

02-15-2004, 12:45 AM

Yup Lung Yin not HT... Thanks for the clarification on that hendik.:rolleyes: Thanks for answering the post about the 12 meridians and how it relates to R/S/O/C but there is still one question that I don't think was answered and that's the- Are these the same twelve that govern the basic Chinese meds?

SLT is direction not an answer. answer is for the past/completed issue. it cannot answer the future not yet ask question. Wow, these are strong words! I two see the SLT as the basses to ones growth and development, but not the only thing that governs learning. I thought that this was all that you believed in? So if it is then you have already limited your growth. Or maybe I misunderstood you, Again! Sorry about that.
SLT is investigation not structure programming. never ending Investigation via curiosity where structure programming has a limit disregard how big its data based Is this in reference to WCK, if so I would like to make a statement on your thoughts. SLT is a wondering/ investigation of self, but with out structural programing then a form is not a form but what ever you make it for that day, yes, no, am I close to your track? If and since SLT has a basic form to follow then there is a structural reason for training as well, such as the foundation to a basic understanding of self. This would bring you out of Fau Kiu(wondering) and place you in the next space in time. Now if your talking the mind only then a form or train of though can only cause chaos in my opinion especially when one floods the newbies with info with out experience, True. And as far overloading data bases are concerned, I can see nothing else but 123 stepping for beginners for they need that to build Gung Fu in self. If your goal is not in the hands but in the mind then what's the point of SLT besides the journey in ones mind? If you have an empty tea cup and fill it is your task done or do you continue to drink and fill and drink and fill. I am open to Ideas that make sense and I am willing to see someone Else's Kung Fu first hand, and say wow I can learn from that regardless if the techniques are sloppy or the words are mis used or the art form as no substance but is a collection from other systems. Regardless of whether he/she is an artist or plagiarist, or an ego driven One for that matter, there is always some thing to take home from each and every encountering event in a beings life. And on that note I thank you brother for your words of, ah, you.

Phenix

02-15-2004, 01:11 AM

Originally posted by yuanfen
I agree with many things you have said-but my notes suggest where I am at...certainly not an arhat...and still have to chase some non personal"enemies" into the next life and have fun doing it. Compassion)) joy

Joy,

True. So am I not an arhat. I agree with you.

However, what I found out lately is that if we are not streching ourselve, we are going to stay in our old familial location.

Seems that when we were kid we always dare to strecth our life and domain of our thought, experience.... then the society, the life has make us so rigid and bound in a "safe" domain because we got punished if we go out the range.... . It is easier to tell ourself we are not there yet.... the sadness of human being I guess. And I am a human not and arhat. So, I understand what you said ... it is just my inner voice tell me, we might not be able to think that way any more, the "safe" place is trapping us....

Also- osensei had his Shintoist hang ups and hierarchy- not quite non dualist. -------J

It is not easy to find true master in every era. as for non duality. until we attain the buddhahood, it is not a full enlightement. But certainly Osense has state higher then lots of masters.... he is certainly more advance then me in lots of area incultivation.

Also- even in very good aikido demos---the protagonist is often a willing and cooperative student. Life does not always give us that luxury-----J

Agree, true in lots of demo.

I like Kyokushin because it is more real then lots of martial art. I like Osense because I read that once he was in a room with Mas oyama. and there is a big contrast between the energy emited. One is strong asura like. One is calm Deva like. None's energy cover the other. So, even I am a great grand student of Mas Oyama, I like Osense's warm and calm more then Mas Oyama's power and tought. Martial art practice doesnt have to hurt others....... just A personal choice.

Just some thought.

PaulH

02-15-2004, 01:19 AM

UW: Nice compliment! Thanks!

Regards,
PH

Phenix

02-15-2004, 01:47 AM

Originally posted by yylee

that's "Yee Dong Shen Dao" :D

"my" current understanding of Lap Nim is to put that DVD(yee) in the tray and let the player(shen) to look after the rest.

of course my current understanding is only good for 2 weeks :D

You know why people dont "see" GOD or the Original face?

That is because they create an idea of how Original face or GOD suppose to look like.----- They take the best human they respect and multiple and amplified the greatness 100000x and think that is GOD or Original face. Then they use that as reference for their judgment... to search for GOD or Original face..

So, when they are happy God is 100000x happy, when they are vengence God is 100000X vengence..... when they are compassionate God is 10000X compassionate.
When they anti-Qing, God is 100000x anti-Qing. ( ask the Taiping, they will tell you so. they called the Qing as Qing DEMON)

But is that God or Original face?

Or just a making up picture of one's past memory trying to describe the unlimited and inconcieveable.

Until people let go the model one create. Until one accept that unlimited is similar to a hotel of countless rooms which every room has its different views. But not a room with the best view which they can concieve. One is within one's created model, one's mind boundary....

Fajing or issuing energy, is counter comon sense. before one attained it one will never believe that is the way. But after one attained it, then it is all very logical. .... Fajing is about with pulling back toward your body not stretching out........

Those who tell you one needs to get the qi in the Dantien.... to be able to fajing is a big lier. Qi help but Fajing doesnt all rely on the Qi. Those who tell you keeping practice SLT until your are 100 years old and then you will be able to Fa Jing. That too is a big lie. You know Fajing before you test and investigate and fine tune in SLT........ But first, do you believe? what do you believe? you will not be in San Jose if you never believe you can. Or you believe you have to pray to Buddha or OMMing for ten years before you are allowed to think?

Mind's Idea... reality... not a simple subject.
Chaos is God, paradox is truth. Change is eternal. Chan is strecthing beyond mind's perception.....and life goes on-- samsara or nirvana, only he who had drunk the water of 6th patriach's Cho's creek knows, how it tasted.

There can be endless arguement on GOD or Original Face... what is what is not... based on a concept one created. But will that bring one to see GOD? will that lead one to know how to Fa Jing?

A picture or a schematic will tell it all.... if one knows how to listern to the sound of silence.

Am I Dreaming? hahaha I must be nuts.

yuanfen

02-15-2004, 06:43 AM

Hendrik sez:

you will not be in San Jose if you never believe you can.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
But Linda Ronstadt's voice led me there!
You can follow the sound.

joy

Phenix

02-15-2004, 08:35 AM

Originally posted by yuanfen
Hendrik sez:

you will not be in San Jose if you never believe you can.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
But Linda Ronstadt's voice led me there!
You can follow the sound.

joy

Joy,

It's so easy to fall in love. :D

Happy Valentine!

yuanfen

02-15-2004, 09:24 AM

I hear her now-

Do you know the way to san jose?
I've been away so long. i may go wrong and lose my way.
Do you know the way to san jose?
I'm going back to find some peace of mind in san jose.

L.a. is a great big freeway.
Put a hundred down and buy a car.
In a week, maybe two, they'll make you a star
Weeks turn into years. how quck they pass
And all the stars that never were
Are parking cars and pumping gas

Do you know the way to san jose?
They've got a lot of space. there'll be a place where i can stay

yylee

02-15-2004, 09:49 AM

Originally posted by yuanfen
I hear her now-

Do you know the way to san jose?
I've been away so long. i may go wrong and lose my way.
Do you know the way to san jose?
I'm going back to find some peace of mind in san jose.

I've been lost many times while driving in San Jose, but I always know where to find that Sushi place (a true story) :D

yylee

02-15-2004, 10:05 AM

Fajing or issuing energy, is counter comon sense. before one attained it one will never believe that is the way. But after one attained it, then it is all very logical. .... Fajing is about with pulling back toward your body not stretching out........

Those who tell you one needs to get the qi in the Dantien.... to be able to fajing is a big lier. Qi help but Fajing doesnt all rely on the Qi. Those who tell you keeping practice SLT until your are 100 years old and then you will be able to Fa Jing. That too is a big lie. You know Fajing before you test and investigate and fine tune in SLT........ But first, do you believe? what do you believe? you will not be in San Jose if you never believe you can. Or you believe you have to pray to Buddha or OMMing for ten years before you are allowed to think?

Phenix

You mean to successfully send, one must absorb all resultant force and "ground" it? This way no resistant is felt from the people who does the Faat, therefore you can send with ease (it is about grace right?) ;) See, when people say they are not using strength to send you, they are telling the truth.

Remember I said two weeks? The road is bumpy and chaos.

Qi, if I may borrow Shi Ming's term, is part of the "refinement of consciousness" process. "Consciousness" here also means the whole body's chi, nervous, muscle and skeleton system. Everthing that can be commanded by Yee. So to sink the Chi down to whatever is a stage, not the whole. But can one train without it? some say yes, some say no. Depend on where you are, if you are already over on the other side of the river, you see it differently then the person who are still rolling......

Phenix

02-15-2004, 10:32 AM

Originally posted by yylee

I've been lost many times while driving in San Jose, but I always know where to find that Sushi place (a true story) :D

SLT is about find your center while the rest of the world is in chaos and unfamiliar. :D

Phenix

02-15-2004, 11:03 AM

You mean to successfully send, one must absorb all resultant force and "ground" it? This way no resistant is felt from the people who does the Faat, therefore you can send with ease (it is about grace right?) ;) See, when people say they are not using strength to send you, they are telling the truth. -----Y

There are a few seems logical but stuck concept here we need to question:

1, one must absorb all resultant force and "ground" it?

question: will bicycle work this way? will jet fly this way? Sure like a statue of liberty standing strong and root to ground there . But will it liberate free? What is ground? what is a virture ground which all resultant force null out?

2, This way no resistant is felt from the people who does the Faat, therefore you can send with ease (it is about grace right?)

question: so one uses all the structure to root ground.... but ask them can they move freely without resistance? or they feel no resistance only when they in that static and quasi static demonstration position but once they have to move thier body a little, there are using the full body pushing streching, fighting force with force, is this grace ? And when the grapper rush in can they sustain as they like it? free of resistance?

Remember I said two weeks? The road is bumpy and chaos.------ Y

Is this bumpy and chaos?
or balance and free with great RESULTANT FORCE management .. and ZHONG.....FUN?

http://encarta.msn.com/media_681500309_761557973_-1_1_BB/media.html

or is this well grounded rooted Baijong.....ect as people call it liberty and free and grounded.

http://encarta.msn.com/media_461539640_761565909_-1_1/Statue_of_Liberty.html

which is your SLT? YOUR CHOICE. ITS A FREE WORLD.

Qi, if I may borrow Shi Ming's term, is part of the "refinement of consciousness" process. "Consciousness" here also means the whole body's chi, nervous, muscle and skeleton system. Everthing that can be commanded by Yee. So to sink the Chi down to whatever is a stage, not the whole. But can one train without it? some say yes, some say no. Depend on where you are, if you are already over on the other side of the river, you see it differently then the person who are still rolling...... -------Y

you want to be the statue of liberty standing there grounded with theory of freedom crafting on the body like the great wall of china to let tourist taking pictures

or

Go surfing opps meditate (who say meditate has to look like dead buddha sitting in nirvana?) with me to Maui ? Your choice :D

Pual, Wong Wah-Po surfing opps doing his SLT everyday in thier Sampan boat.
and so, you can buy this

http://watermassagebeds.com/img/bedguplg.jpg
(Yim wing chun and her surf boad)

to learn the ORIGINAL WCK :cool:

Phenix

02-15-2004, 11:17 AM

Originally posted by yuanfen

1, Do you know the way to san jose?
They've got a lot of space. there'll be a place where i can stay

2, Do you know the way to san jose?
I've been away so long. i may go wrong and lose my way.
Do you know the way to san jose?
I'm going back to find some peace of mind in san jose.

1,sure,

san jose is fill with wild Alchemist. they live in CYBER space , plenty of space there, in the ULSI within San Jose.

2, Turn of the san jose computer and one is in peace and silence there --- in San Jose. you wont get lost if you find the san jose switch. :D

yylee

02-15-2004, 11:54 AM

Originally posted by Phenix
question: will bicycle work this way? will jet fly this way? Sure like a statue of liberty standing strong and root to ground there . But will it liberate free? What is ground? what is a virture ground which all resultant force null out?

Phenix

Bicycle works because of the wheels. Initiating momentum from an angle that has no resistent, or from a point with the most leverage. Airplane flies because it cumulates volumes of incoming air underneath the wing. To "ground" it is to explain what physcally happens from an observer's pov. To do it, I feel that it has more to do with the spine. I don't thing consciously "grounding it" works, one will get there but with a lot of effort. When I say "ground", does it have to be the physical ground? ;) If the mind has the thought of "going to ground", then the person is really gounded.

To answer question two, it depends if you are using brute hydrolic force or using levers...

Phenix

02-15-2004, 12:47 PM

Tons of Chinese who have no idea how bicycle works ride Bike as a transportation vehicle.

Now, Tons' of so called martial artists write about JIng and how does it works... and not too many know how to operate it.

Strainge isnt it?

If my memory is not wrong.

Once GM YIP MAM said something like " is it atomic physics? so complicated?"

Now, which is more difficult? surfing or riding bike or just to understand the simple----- our own energy flow?

Or those theoritis just sit in thier chair preaching about someday's if according to doing this and that.... and one will understand.... jing... in the sametime they have no idea what is what.. because they learn everything from Shaw's brother movies or Kam Yong's martial art fiction where poeple can flies?

Just some wacky thought

Phenix

02-15-2004, 12:56 PM

Originally posted by yylee

If the mind has the thought of "going to ground", then the person is really gounded.

why not hang in sky? levitate? dont those yogic can levitate?

dfl

02-15-2004, 03:37 PM

Originally posted by yuanfen
Hendrik sez:

you will not be in San Jose if you never believe you can.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
But Linda Ronstadt's voice led me there!
You can follow the sound.

joy

I thought it was Dionne Warwick, though Linda Ronstadt (an Arizona product) used to know the way to Sacramento once upon a time.

yuanfen

02-15-2004, 04:56 PM

The Ronstadts were/ are a mixed anglo-hispanic family out of Tucson. She has sung that song too....besides hasten down the wind and others.

PS- in 2003 May or thereabouts went to a great inter lineage wc get together at San Jose. Would go to more of those but caring for an elderly mother cramps my travels a bit-though not completely.

yylee

02-15-2004, 06:50 PM

Originally posted by Phenix

why not hang in sky? levitate? dont those yogic can levitate?

that's anti-gravity, top secret! Ghosty WCK :D

PaulH

02-16-2004, 09:58 AM

Hendrik,

If you trained balance on boat or water bed, your balance will be off when you are on solid ground. Don't you ever get seasick motion? A wacky thought?

Regards,
PaulPeye the sailor loves land

Phenix

02-16-2004, 11:06 AM

Originally posted by PaulH
Hendrik,

If you trained balance on boat or water bed, your balance will be off when you are on solid ground. Don't you ever get seasick motion? A wacky thought?

Regards,
PaulPeye the sailor loves land

Do you get motion sick off car?

PaulH

02-16-2004, 11:14 AM

I take it as the rocking motion is negligible in its duration and intensity. So the goal is to have balance in motion?

Regards,
PH

Phenix

02-16-2004, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by PaulH
I take it as the rocking motion is negligible in its duration and intensity. So the goal is to have balance in motion?

Regards,
PH

It is about center when the whole world in chaos and you can decide where to put your energy for balancing purpose.

PaulH

02-16-2004, 12:05 PM

I like it. How would you apply it to this chaotic situation when you are the underdog in this stoten video clip from our KF friends from the other forum?

http://content.collegehumor.com/media/movies/fight_after_school.wmv

Regards,
PH

Phenix

02-16-2004, 12:19 PM

How would you apply it to this chaotic situation when you are the underdog ----P

It is a violent video trying to proof who is stronger.... hope that we dont have to see that.

It is not chaotic, it is emotional driven..

You apply center to not let this happen.

PaulH

02-16-2004, 12:23 PM

Agreed! But it is quite instructive on the brutal nature of fighting. Love can be blind. Streetfight is an eye opener.

Regards,
PH

Phenix

02-16-2004, 12:29 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
Agreed! But it is quite instructive on the brutal nature of fighting. Love can be blind. Streetfight is an eye opener.

Regards,
PH

When things is emotional driven one will regret.

It is not instructive or eye opening at all,
it shows a lack of discipline.

PaulH

02-16-2004, 12:36 PM

Admittedly the clip goes against the calm and centered mindset of WC. I can't say that such extreme emotions displayed there is not calm and calculated on the agressor's part however. Some people tuned into these primitive instincts and raw emotional powers deliberately and tuned out when needed. Are they undisciplined?

Regards,
PH

Phenix

02-16-2004, 12:43 PM

You know, Paul, a strike in chest ...a choke ... might vegitable a person.

Think about if you were that victims mom.

Every person has family thus.
It is not even worthed to get emotional.

I was in a Buddhist meeting yesterday.

One elderly told me his living experence on how to stay cold in heated arguement.

He said " those arque with me, dis agree with me, attack me verbally and yealling......ect at me infront of me are all not bad people. so no need to get emotion and doing something we will regret later.

In my life, i have come across lots of Friends who talk sweet, always agree with me...but at the end I lost millions of dollars and drag down to ground even I dont believe Those people will do that to me.

So, who is the real enermy and bad people? sometimes, enermy is not that bad at all. Friends? can be even worst. "

So what is this got to do with open and close?

Well, who are you going to open and close your heart to?

PaulH

02-16-2004, 12:52 PM

The killing hand and the healing hand. One must weigh carefully between life and death. Not easy to answer. Thanks.

Regards,
PH

Phenix

02-16-2004, 12:56 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
I can't say that such extreme emotions displayed there is not calm and calculated on the agressor's part,

however. Some people tuned into these primitive instincts and raw emotional powers deliberately and tuned out when needed. Are they undisciplined?

Regards,
PH

Pual,

When I was young. I have chances to sparr with a few good Kyokushin, Thai boxers,......

You know, heavy punch, ko metality and execution doesnt need chaos agression emotion as based.

There is a different between everything is in chaos and one is center living the rest is chaos

Phenix

02-16-2004, 01:01 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
The killing hand and the healing hand. One must weigh carefully between life and death. Not easy to answer. Thanks.

Regards,
PH

Better to train for the killing hand,
but live with the living hand.

For you might not need to use the killing hand
but your life surely will be much happy with living hand.

PaulH

02-16-2004, 01:11 PM

I always like a quiet and peaceful life and then there comes along "the Quiet Man" of John Wayne. Funny, heh?

Phenix

02-16-2004, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
I always like a quiet and peaceful life and then there comes along "the Quiet Man" of John Wayne. Funny, heh?

Isnt it no accident that the most seductive person ---- Shearon Stone in Fatal Attraction or James Bond or Coun Dracula are always center and calm and quiet and radiate a sense of seductively peace? :P

Seduction always hide under the proper elegant moves.... one needs to be center before attracting others... :D

Human being seems love the evil under the cover of balance and elegance.....the dance of Siva....

Joy, what do you think?

yuanfen

02-16-2004, 02:50 PM

Sharon Stone is a beautiful woman-and in real life she has handled tragedy well.

On Siva- I have to watch out about writing endlessly and esoterically and intuitively...
Briefly, Siva's dance(as Nataraja-the Lord of the Dance) is the perennial dance of the sub atomic world. Calm- in the midst of the fire and the cycles of continuous creation and destruction..crushing the demon of desire under one foot.

Interestingly his posture is perfectly balanced on an axis and as Nataraja-his hand mudras are similar to wu and daibong and the
lifted leg very much like a bong gerk sealing. His head is erect and centered.Focus on the agni chakra-before the final illumination of the aligned crown chakra.

In some represenations he has the trisul- his famous trident. Snakes in his hair and around the earth where he stands erect.
He sits calmly in cremation grounds with ashes on him.
As a male force he is shakta-his consort is the female kali-shakti-the source of martial energy-kundalini-the source of prana equivalent to chi and the greek stoic pneuma.

Status oriented Brahmins have(IMO) distorted the universalistic aspects
of Siva symbolism and it's semiotics for priestly control.

In one representaion- I have(in my Tempe home- a gift) a four foot clay sculpture of it from Calcutta- there is the female-male balancing- with Kali standing on Siva's chest. Kali (earth mother)BTW in keeping with the healing-hurting theme has symbols of destructions in her left hands and symbols of healing/blessing (abhaya mudra/straight palm) on her right palms. She has a garland of male skulls- the necessary destruction of macho/the male ego.
Kali symbolism is claimed by many rightly or wrongly- including the martial Gurkha warriors. The male/female balancing symbolism is in their kukhris(the notches)-their close quarters hand weapon.
Kali was also claimed as a patron by the anti-colonial Indian Robin Hoods- the thugees(thugs) who were masters of choking, and strangling symbols of power and wealth.... and throwing weapons as well.
I do digress.
Joy

Phenix

02-16-2004, 06:35 PM

Joy,

Thanks for the great post.

I think , we as human love to grow out of ourself to the unlimited.
Thus, we love symbolic, we love magic.
We use symbolic and magic to describe our vision or dream or mission.

From Shao Lin's Kumara God who protected Shao Lin with his pole, to Daoist Chang San-Feng create Taiji inspired by God in his dream, to Super Monks invented WCK, to Stars Wars, to Lord of Ring, to Space Travel, to ............

From movie, to legend, to reality (by the way what is reality?)
For me that is an expression of a dream, a vision.......
Similar to kid applying lateral thinking and think visually to describe thier dream.

There is nothing wrong with these at all and needs to be encourage.
Because this is creativity. This is the step toward the impossible.

However, our human tragic in a not civilized location, under a not civilized dictator, ...... ect, always raised the case of my god is better then your god , my legend is more true then your legend, my legend is science / your legend is not scientific. .....

We try to crush others legend with our rigid vertical thinking pattern which required others to fill every logic every hole of imformation, with our Mine is the only correct way.......
There we kill the dream, the magic , the symbol, the creativity, the life, the free spirit, the warm , the light, the grow, the rich soil of heart ground ,the mother earth, the spring.

What we left is living in a rigid dim prison world, pray to gods image set up from our egoistic , and because the egoistic never shine but dark by nature. we decorate is with neons and LED.

But, without dream, vision, magic, and symbol.......nothing , nothing is alive.

Were is WCK now?
Do we want to continous to dig deeper into the history evidence? or it is the time to stop, and embrace all legend instead of---- mine legend is real and original and yours is fake?

Phenix

02-17-2004, 10:11 AM

One can view a person doing SLT and issuing energy as a cross bow releasing an arrow.

The vertical line or we generally called it the center line and our body is the bow. and hand is the arrow.

As it said, Issuing energy is similar to releasing an arrow. Releasing is a perpendicular to the bow.

Thus, the bow has to move, open, close... to store and supply the energy.......ect. Thus, the bow cannot stay at a static Rooted or Grounded position. It is a bow not a stair rest on ground and leaning on wall. or a pisa tower.

This is another characteristics of SLT which is different to the other shao lin art. via the interaction of the bow body, the energy is manupulated not via the wide stance. eventhought wider stand can be used to aid. Since it is about sending not about streching the SLT structure is different.

similar to a cross bow, streching/opening the string and bow body is storing energy and shrinking/ closing is releasing the energy or shoot out the arrow. Thus, in Yikkam's issue energy teaching it said Shrink, release, vibrate, swing back. Swing back is an automatic restore. shrink is effortless.

Paul, ask me yesterday about what if One in the under position of that violance fight....

My thought is not in violant but keep thinking in term of energy is that : how clumpsy and forcefull when one strectching and in the sametime trying to force out energy. one has to do 2 job forcefully. 1, strect to hit, 2, hit. similar to padelling a bicycle uphill.....
The bigger and more muscle.., agile,, the faster.. will certainly has benifit.....that way what is the fundamental chance the weak can defeat the strong?

open and close..... what do one do with one's bow? tight it up , ground it rigid, always spending energy trying to keep a man made position rigid and root position , pulling and streching the arrow forcefull? or open and closing the bow let is shoot the arrow naturally?

If we cant solve this cross bow problem, we will be struck because the SLT short range speed Jing based on this cross bow.
Without it we cant sustain a fast grapper. And the weak has no chance to haddle the strong. time/space/speed has to obey the strong take over the weak rule.

If one using the weighted leg as center, draw a circle around the center with the stretch leg, and if one's lead hand is outside of this circle... This has shown in the first degree that one has violate the natural law of energy issuing in every instant the structure is without Zhong or balance, thus, it is a strech art not a send art. the art is not stay in zhong unconditional, even in baijong or SLT, this rule can check the charicteristics of the art. An old rule of game, how true is it ?

violation of this out of circle is also called "broken sharp" in other internel art such as yee chuan if my memory serve. I call it a "broken arrow".

Just some thought.

JamesHFYofAZ

02-17-2004, 10:22 AM

Is this a 70,80, or 90lbs crossbow? And don't forget that after the 80lb compounding draw there is a relax position of 20lbs.:D

PaulH

02-17-2004, 10:52 AM

Thanks, Hendrik! That was a superb illustrative post. To get back to the video clip, the problem of opening and closing of the body like those of the bow, as I see it, is there is no room to release the arrow when he is on top suffocating you. I think It's a tad more than just sheer strength or muscle. What do you think?

Regards,
PH

02-17-2004, 11:13 AM

Originally posted by Phenix
One can view a person doing SLT and issuing energy as a cross bow releasing an arrow.

I have seen you use this crossbow illustration before and, IMHO, it is excellent.

It parallels a common force-vector description that my teacher uses (in his own terms), the discussion of which frequently yields a simple picture description (on a flipchart, whiteboard, or paper napkin) looking roughly like this:

/ \
|
|---->
|
\ /

[Unfortunately, technology here does not permit me to utilize "white space" in my preferred manner. Oh well.]

For us, this strongly correlates with elements of our mantra "kim sut, lok ma, ting yu, dung tau, mai jahng."

Good thread.

Regards,
- kj

Jim Roselando

02-17-2004, 11:17 AM

Hey Paul,

Thanks, Hendrik! That was a superb illustrative post.

It was!

To get back to the video clip, the problem of opening and closing of the body like those of the bow, as I see it, is there is no room to release the arrow when he is on top suffocating you. I think It's a tad more than just sheer strength or muscle. What do you think?

I dont know what video clip you are talking about but the Bow/Arrow thing is ultra important. We normally think about it as the body/spine is the bow and the fist is the arrow. In the beginning the body may take more noticeable action to release good power but as we get better the motions shrink and become les noticeable. With regards to having someone on top of you I can understnad your thoughts. The way we practice is designed to deliver short force from any point. You definetely need sharp fa jing and coordination of the waist/torso to deliver this. Plus, the larger frame you have the less short power you will have IMO. Its a simple conclusion. Shorter or more compact body has less distance for the energy to travel thru. Larger has more distance and typically displays more long power. The old idea of: Imagine you could shake water off your body like a wet dog is the best way to think about it. So, the short bridge must stick closely to the body otherwise we lose the centering/connections to generate short shock force. When you power from the ground up and lock the body down it will be a harder type of force and from ultra close it was always harder for me to deliver zero contact force. I am not saying that it cant be done but its just a different body mechanics/engine. This is the best way I can describe my feeling from someone who has done both.

Anyone else?

Regards,

Phenix

02-17-2004, 12:24 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
Thanks, Hendrik! That was a superb illustrative post. To get back to the video clip, the problem of opening and closing of the body like those of the bow, as I see it, is there is no room to release the arrow when he is on top suffocating you. I think It's a tad more than just sheer strength or muscle. What do you think?

Regards,
PH

Thus, I have heard,

1, Wang Xiang-Zai bounce off with a touch.
2, Yik Kam bounce off Cho's brothers
3, Sun Luu-Dang let judo ka press him on ground and bounce off.

Those are people who has this bow.. perhaps we need to ask them.. :D

Thus, I have heard, The key of that on top and ground fighting is about using the legs to clamp ... hahaha. you need to know where to bounce.....

PaulH

02-17-2004, 12:37 PM

Hendrik,

Some guys are darn good sticky fleas on your body! I keep scratching my ears for a better way to rid them. Ha! Ha! How did the old timers bounce? It seems more of a timing issue where you crush the flea on its way to your back. Good post, Jim!

Regards,
PH

Phenix

02-17-2004, 12:45 PM

Hey Paul,

In the old time, you hold Yim Wing-Chun's hand she got to marry you.

so, I guess she must have the fasters technology to bound you off. :D

Phenix

02-17-2004, 01:03 PM

Hi KJ,

The material making the bow and string is very important.

a great elastic carbon lightweight fible glass for the bow and a steel string..... mix the ancient and high tech :D

/\
|
----<
|
\/

\/
|
| ---->
|
/\

LEt this teach us about WCK's short speedy jing! the diffirent between strech and send ..
And dont tell me those Chi To Dan Tien or .... anymore

http://archaeology.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://exn.ca/video/%3Fvideo=exn20030925%2Dfact%2Dcrossbow.asx

Remember use your full body! Hahahahaha :D

YY,

So where the Chi comes into the picture?

Tip:
Oh, there is an issue about the crossbow loading delay..
the energy path monitoring system... and a live bow-- which is the body to cut down the delay.....
hahahahaha

Sure, bullet is faster! Life.... 1850. the anti-qing lost.

From the east to the west---- rule of game Said, things in physical world which doesnt grow died. Where are we now? still believing that spearing is the same with bow? streching art and sending art?.... SLT and other set from other style?

Phenix

02-17-2004, 02:54 PM

Joy,

In my analogy,
One can look at it as the white crane of fujian is the cross bow with steel bow and WCK is the cross bow with todays fible grass.
that softness snake like fiber glass technology is from Emei.

Now, the questin remain, how SLT implement this body crossbow?

I leave this to everyone. There is more the one way to do it.

Rene,

Hahaha, we have gone a long way crossfield to figure out the evolution of jing.....and its time stamp.

the year of SLT invented... before 1800. LOL

YY,

and how lap min effect this above? :D

we can have a big picture soon........
To be continous......

Jim,

There are 4 dances in Yee Chuan. thier top secrete :D
this was from ancent china and the moka buddha glove where lots of ancient Tang Dynasty Buddha status.. were .
so, the first dance is waving wave... ... using the vertical wave to send out horizontal energy.....

The story of SLT just begun.....

KPM

02-18-2004, 03:59 AM

Originally posted by Phenix
Joy,

In my analogy,
One can look at it as the white crane of fujian is the cross bow with steel bow and WCK is the cross bow with todays fible grass.
that softness snake like fiber glass technology is from Emei.

Now, the questin remain, how SLT implement this body crossbow?

I leave this to everyone. There is more the one way to do it.

Hi Guys!

The analogy of a crossbow is a good one, but could be better for human anatomy. With a crossbow, you actually have two bows...the bow itself and the string. Human anatomy only has one bow that I see....the spine/torso. So I think of the "bow" more like the leafspring in a car than a crossbow. Imagine a flat strip of bamboo. Now press the tip of a chopstick into its center to make the bamboo "bow." Release the chopstick and the bow will send it shooting across the room, no string needed. Better yet, picture a strip of leather or rubber that you are holding at both ends. Now have someone press the tip of the chopstick into the strip to make it "bow." Then picture yourself suddenly snapping the ends of the strip apart to shoot the chipstick across the room. The leather strip is the spine/torso and the chopstick is the punch. The snap at the ends of the strip is rise/sink, expand/contract. This can be done in both the vertical dimension and horizontal dimension. So IMHO, the "bow" refers not to a crossbow or compound bow dynamic, but rather a more natural "bow" created by putting a bend in any kind of elastic material. Anyway, thats how I see it. Your milage may vary. :-)

Keith

Phenix

02-18-2004, 09:02 AM

Originally posted by crimsonking
waves, circles, figures of eight... and to think wing chun is so often limited to being a 'linear' system.

It was said " straight within curvature " but some body translate it to be a linear system.
and there on, the system is limited------since this is a non linear world.

Phenix

02-18-2004, 09:12 AM

The term Fatt or issue is a term use for release or shooting out the arrow. The term Da is about hitting.

It is said Sau choong Sum Fatt or hand release from heart. Not Da or hit.....

It is about a cross bow or bow or...vertical wave converted into horizontal wave without losing balance.....ect pointing at Jing.

What do you see? Bow ? crossbow? wave? jing? That influence the implementation....

And, ultimately, it has nothing to do with bow..... just a symbolic expression---crossbow.

PaulH

02-18-2004, 10:17 AM

Symbolically speaking, I see the dance of Shiva. Thanks.

Phenix

02-18-2004, 11:12 AM

Originally posted by PaulH
Symbolically speaking, I see the dance of Shiva. Thanks.

The question remain is ----- how do one become a Shiva like ---- the creation ----- how to bring idea from mental realm to the physical realm.......

PaulH

02-18-2004, 11:24 AM

I don't know but even waves collapse when they drift away from...

Phenix

02-18-2004, 12:53 PM

OK, lets go to the breathing part...

Thus, I have heard.

One needs to learn how to relax the internal organs.... while starting the SLT.

So, in the old time, when one standing in the equal shoulder stance position. Similar to the Taiji nature post.... ect... feeling like a sky scraper without walls. so the sky scraper stood there tall and the wind is freely flowing horizontailly passing the tower.
or a big kite levitate in the sky. or a pice of silk floating in the air.

DONOT trying to put all weight in the legs to make it feel like a stone heavy loaded legs or waist. that cause problem.... it breaks the one piceness of the body....

One says "haaaaa" while exhale. for three times.

How to say this "haaaa"? there are detail recorded.

1, put the tip of the toung behind the lower teeths natually.
2, inhale relaxly let it sink to abdoment with relax and pay less attention to inhale
3, naturally open mouth without streching the jaw too much, just relax the bottom jaw when one ready to exhale. Say "haaaaaaa' SOFTly then only one will heard by onself and drag the aaaa ( however no part of the chest should feel tense while saying haaaaa. No pressure at all)
4, in the sametime while saying haaaaa. instead of thinking blowing the breath out. Think the breath sinking into one's throat, then chest, then stomach, then Dan tien area. and visualize where ever the breath sinking in, it is similar to a clear pure wind disolve the light easy to melt foam or paper or .... any thing in the way down to navel area. and at the end of the "haaa", one feel from the throat to the chest to the lower abdoment become hollow and really lite.

One can use this when one's chest is stuffy, getting tense, getting nervous.... when one needs to relax. one can sit down or laydown.... do it any where when one need to slow down/ relax/let go /center/ balance oneself.

then after doing this "haaa". close the mouth, tip of tounge shift to behind the teeth on upper jaw. relax and "feel" how the lower stomach or around the navel.... waving slowly while inhale and exhale. stay there and relax.....

Remember, don't tensing or trying to blow the breath out. That actually tensing the chest and internal organs to cause stagnation in chi circulation or blood circulation......

IT IS ABOUT LETTING GO NOT ABOUT TRYING TO FORCE ANYTHING.
DO NOT USE YOUR INTENTION TO DRIVE. OFTEN ONE INTENTION APPLIED BODY TENSE UP. JUST VISUALIZED.....RELAX. DONT INTENT TO RELAX.

Once we can relax ourself with this Haaa.

One can use the same visualization of sinking in to let go/relax even without saying haaaaa. just sit down or lay down... ect. or in Baijong.... while exhaling with nose. visualize the breath sinking in....

A good thing to use in a hectic day....

Then, we needs to go into about opening the Ming Men or the Second Chakra area.... To start the power......
In the sametime, we needs to go into the effect of spine/head/ tail bone.... since when the power is turn on, then the major circuit has to be in place. or since the gate of the reservoir has been open, the major cannals has to be link up for the flow.....

The goal is 1st, get a healty body, with balance healty body, the mind will balance and healty.... and with this platform, one build up the martial art.....and streching our vision, grow out of our own limitation or boundries be it a physical or a mental one...

Just some thoughts on what I have heard.......

Phenix

02-18-2004, 01:27 PM

Pual,

Do you tally down everyone's response? since you started this topic. :D

hahahaha, it is Alchemy. the Alchemy SLT way. :D

So, from the resultant force, the Zong balance of wave surf, to the crossbow, to the yee, to the medirian activation, to the circle to check the broken arrow, to the entering silence breathing...... hahahaha compile these and here is the book1, free of charge.

May be we can get Rene :D to do one of the WCML gathering and we can have fun with everyone discussing all the wacky ideas.. with gathering donation go to orphanage or senior home. :D

Jim Roselando

02-18-2004, 01:32 PM

Here is some info. from WXZ and Luk Hop art.

Luk Hop (lui ho ba fa)

Shen Suo Yao Zhuo Li

Stretch (open) and contract (close) the waist to exert strength

Kai He Shou Yu Fang

Use the movements of Closing and Opening to gather and release your inner power

Yu Dong Si Fei Dong

When you are moving, desire to appear is if you are not moving

Jing Zhong Huan You Yi

Within the center of your stillness, maintain your intent

Hao Hao Hu Qing Xu

You will find the Majestic Greatness in pure emptiness

Wang Xiang Zhai

Your Chi, because of the errect posture in which you are standing, will be able to shoot up thru the 3 gates of the spinal chord to the top of the head. In this posture also, your bones will be as strong as the back of a bow, enabling you to recoil and use your intrinsic strength (Jin) fully.

When you release your fist or hand, it will be as if releasing an arrow. When you use your strength, use it as if drawing silk, evenly so as not to break it, while your two hands as if pulling cotton apart.

Your Chi can be compared to gunpowder, and your fist to the bullet. Then, using your awareness just a little, it is as if you're pulling the trigger with it, and no flying bird can escape.

Self defense means combat. It should be understood that in combat, moving violently is not as good as moving slightly, which is not as good as moving at all. It is stillness that is constant movement, just like a flywheel which, when turning extremely fast, looks static. A visible movement is actually nothing but a reflection of weakness. The motion that resides in stillness and looks like stillness is really powerful. Such motion and stillness are independent, each being the source of each other!

Phenix

02-18-2004, 01:37 PM

Jim,

Great Post!

Great Job.

PaulH

02-18-2004, 02:08 PM

I feel like I'm on a threshold of a wonderful gate. I don't know what is on the other side but it seems only a step away. Thank you very much for sharing your treasures of knowledge!

Regards,
PH

John Weiland

02-18-2004, 03:13 PM

Hi Jim,

Good insights.

Regards,

Phenix

02-18-2004, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
I feel like I'm on a threshold of a wonderful gate. I don't know what is on the other side but it seems only a step away. Thank you very much for sharing your treasures of knowledge!

Regards,
PH

Pual,

One walks through the gate of Silence into the bound-less.
SLT has the technology.. and we do have some keys for the engine now.

you will not concieve what is on the other side because mind is not everything.

yylee

02-18-2004, 07:30 PM

Originally posted by Phenix
YY,

So where the Chi comes into the picture?

Tip:
Oh, there is an issue about the crossbow loading delay..
the energy path monitoring system... and a live bow-- which is the body to cut down the delay.....
hahahahaha

Hendrik happy b-day!

So... how do you line up your head, spine and tail bone?

Use muscles to lock it till it is straight like Statue of Liberty? :D

Or how do you know your spine is lined up?

And....how do you sink your shoulders and elbows? Press them down until they are locked tight against your chest?

Or... you project your hand 3 Y.i.. down,... oops..

Didn't Kum Yung say "when the Yee arrives, Chi arrives".. something like that? :D

yylee

02-18-2004, 07:32 PM

Originally posted by Phenix
YY,

and how lap min effect this above? :D

If you Lap Nim well, next time you see Diaz, you know what to say to her without a thought.

KPM

02-19-2004, 04:18 AM

Originally posted by yylee

So... how do you line up your head, spine and tail bone?

Use muscles to lock it till it is straight like Statue of Liberty? :D

Or how do you know your spine is lined up?

And....how do you sink your shoulders and elbows? Press them down until they are locked tight against your chest?

Seems like no one was too impressed with my analogy. But I still think that if you use it to apply along a biomechnical approach, many of the questions asked will be answered on their own. The torso (head,spine,tailbone) is the "bow" or the elastic strip of bamboo or leather. You stay relaxed so that there is a small degree of "bow" present. If you lock everything up with muscle tension, then you lose the natural elasticity. The upper body should be relaxed as well so that the shoulders and elbows drop naturally towards the centerline in front of you. This is the "contract" or "sink" aspect. The chest expands and shoulders go back when punching. This is the "expand" or "rise" aspect that "sends" the jing forward. This is what I was referring to when I said that my analogy of the "bow" applied to the horizontal dimension as well as the vertical dimension. I like this analogy better than the crossbow analogy because I ask myself "if the spine/torso is the bow, then where is the string?" or likewise "if the spine/torso is the string (which fits the crossbow anology better) then where is the bow?"

Keith

02-19-2004, 04:28 AM

Originally posted by KPM
Seems like no one was too impressed with my analogy.

I was. As is too often the case, it was both an error of omission and taking a good contribution for granted in the flow of dialog.

Regards & Thanks,
- kj

KPM

02-19-2004, 10:45 AM

Originally posted by kj

I was. As is too often the case, it was both an error of omission and taking a good contribution for granted in the flow of dialog.

Regards & Thanks,
- kj

Thanks Kathy Jo! I thought of some other points to ponder. :-) If we take the analogy of the crossbow too far, it will tend to encourage excessive tension. After all, the more tension in a crossbow string, the more powerfully the arrow is launched. But increasing muscle tension will not result in a more powerful punch. Another idea worth thinking about.....how does a bow without a string launch an arrow?

Keith

PaulH

02-19-2004, 11:56 AM

Keith,

It's not a bow but a rubber band. I can't tell you enough of how I as a little child suffered the slings and arrows of its outrageous missiles...Good idea!

Regards,
PH

yylee

02-19-2004, 08:54 PM

Originally posted by KPM

Seems like no one was too impressed with my analogy. But I still think that if you use it to apply along a biomechnical approach, many of the questions asked will be answered on their own. ...
Keith

Don't be upset Keith, it has been a long 15 page thread. Took me a while to just scan most of it from midway.

Regarding the crossbow, Hendrik seems to think that it is a symbolic bow. I guess in reality things may not work like a leather strap with snapping energy from both ends.

Regarding relaxation, Chi flow helps one "scan" his/her body and realize "intuitively" where the stiff spots are. BTW, how do you know the spine is lined up probably? One may be very relax on their shoulders, but without lining up the head with the spine IMHO the structure is still not complete.

Phenix

02-19-2004, 09:18 PM

Originally posted by yylee

Regarding the crossbow, Hendrik seems to think that it is a symbolic bow. I guess in reality things may not work like a leather strap with snapping energy from both ends.

BTW, how do you know the spine is lined up probably? One may be very relax on their shoulders, but without lining up the head with the spine IMHO the structure is still not complete.

It is a symbolic trying to describe a few things. If one shows you how to generate the vertical wave to shoot the horizontal one, you will agree that is just a symbolic stuffs but the symbolic applied toward the understanding and fine tune.

Lots of time, the old chinese shows how things work before describe the symbolic. ------Having the baby and know the gendel before giving her a name.

This is a taboo or we can comment of the political nature of the Chinese tradition in different way. The indoor student was shown and the non indoor will never see. So, both will talk about the symbol.. theory but the exdoor never see and might never attain it for the whole life.

head and spine alignment is not difficult at all. with this understanding, again one can scan the structure integrity with one scan. So, take a picture while people doing chi sau. one scan will see which one's structure has been broken ....

hope that when I speak in plain english in lay man term and not those Crptic stanzas the ancestors doesnt have a headache on my renegate behavior. :D

Just some thought.

yylee

02-19-2004, 09:26 PM

Originally posted by Phenix

head and spine alignment is not difficult at all. with this understanding, again one can scan the structure integrity with one scan. So, take a picture while people doing chi sau. one scan will see which one's structure has been broken ....

True, Chi Sau is about dealing with distractions right? Observing others is easy, doing it with your own two hands is a different story. Besides, if you can master the alignment details you can easily scan others' structural integrity (sounds like StarTrek?), otherwise without the mastery you are still guessing. How straight IS straight? How relax IS relax? What's the monitoring criteria? :)

Phenix

02-19-2004, 09:33 PM

Hahaha, YY

See, you tell the ancestors not to come into my dream and I will tell you the honest truth. :D

Look, without a monitoring system how the heck one is going to know what is proper or not?

So, that monitoring system is the one, one uses to scan others, why? because one build intuition with it.

Starts with SLT, as I mention before. The "haaa" is let it sinking inward instead of outward blowing... there are lots of details there.....

BTW, Haaa is that sinking in the 12post and tiger steps. using the reverse you can sink qi to Dantien, not blowing. that will cause stagnation in chest. when people Ki-ai. if they make this mistake. they are shouthing instead of sink qi to dantien.

late Cho hong-choy was teasing me when i do tenso with ki-ai on not be able to sink qi down.

Sensing is a monitoring system. and one needs to know what is sensed. otherwise, it is just a vague stuffs about sensing. similar to give you a 1000x telescope and ask you to look at the big dipper without telling you which direction to look. can check for light intensity with a thermal meter. doesnt make sense at all. Hahahaha

Better shut up now. otherwise, the ancestors are going to pound my head tonight. :D

Hey, Yee doesnt work. hahahaha. it tense you up when you see Diaz. just do this, visual or imaging you and Diaz already talked....

simulate that and sure when you meet her everything will be just fine. otherwise, you can keep your NIm Lap but become a dummy when you see Diaz. try it. :D why are you become a dummy? because in your intention or nim, your intention is only to see her. so what is next? the intention dont know. so it stuck. :D

Some drunk thought.