The tenth animal of CLF?

[Fu-Pow]

Ok...here's something that's really getting under my skin....

What is the tenth animal of CLF?

I've got:

Tiger
Panther
Crane
Snake
Dragon
Lion
Monkey
Horse
Elephant....

These I can confirm......

I've heard the tenth animal is.....

1) Bi Yu (sounds like)=a wolf-like animal
(according to my Sifu, he wrote down the characters but I can't read his handwriting)

2) Dil = archaic form of the character for Deer
(according to Sifu Howard Choy of Sydney HSG)

3) Hung= Bear
(got this idea from a book on 10 animals form of Southern Shaolin by Kwan Tak Hing + CLF has a Hung Yen "Bear-Man" hand form)

So which is it?

And furthermore regarding the 10 animals, do they all have their own form?

Which techs embody which animals?

[Mika]

When it comes to information of this kind, Sisuk Howard Choy is of course your best bet. He is very close to the sources of Choy Lee Fut.

Good question about the Bear (Hung). I once learned a form called Hung Ying Ba Kwa. But that's different, it's Ba Kwa, doesn't count as far as the 10 animals are concerned..;)

All animals have their own forms, and there are many forms for two animals. One of the most famous ones of these is the Fu Ying Pau (Pow, as you like to spell it...;)) Ying Kuen (sp?).

I think the characteristics of all these animals were discussed at clfma.com at some point last year. Since the board is not as busy as this one, you can probably find the info quickly.

//mika

[Fu-Pow]

While I agree that Howard Choy is a great source his information conflicts with what I've been told by my Sifu.

I'm just wondering where this discrepancy comes from.

In addition I talked to my good kung fu friend who is fluent in both Cantonese and Mandarin and he said that he had no knowledge of any word for "deer" that sounds even remotely close to "Dil."

[CLFNole]

I asked my wife for the chinese word for deer and she said it was "lok". The only animal that sounds like "dil" or "dew" is eagle.

The one thing I always found strange is that there is tiger, panther and lion. In actuality they all are cats and fight in a similar manner, of course size and speed vary. I can't imagine a lion being much different than a tiger and if in fact the lion form has alot of grappling it doesn't make sense since cats don't use joint locks. :D

Peace

[monk weed]

I think that the lion techniques represent the tearing action of the jaws. That would be cool if the form had grappling techniques. I wounder who out there that trains choy lay fut know this form and from what lineage it comes from?

Oh yea! Fu Pow, I was told that the deer was one of the ten animals and that there is no bear in choy lay fut. There is a bear ba gwa form but that does not relate to one of the ten animals.

[Mika]

Fu-Pow, I wrote this in my earlier post but deleted it because I didn't want to take the chance of sounding like I am trying to stir up something. Since you are a smart guy and surely understand why I would say this, I will say it.

When it comes to any information about Choy Lee Fut, Sydney HSG is always the most reliable source. There is nothing outside the family the family does not know. All the original scrolls are safely guarded by the Grandmaster (they are in a secret location and I am sure there are copies in other secret locations). The scrolls are updated by each generation - Choy Lee Fut is an evolving art - and all pertinent information is included in them. Something as basic as the tenth animal can be trusted at face value coming from the Sydney HSG. Now, it could be a matter of translation and such, but since Sisuk Howard Choy said it is a deer-like animal, I guess we will have to go along with that until we learn to understand Cantonese :D

Big cats fight in a very different manner from one another, and I mean they fight very differently from each other in nature. Of course, very is a subjective word, but different is different. Now, when you add human imagination to the mix, you definitely have differences.

The tiger is more straight-forward and very powerful whereas the panther is more agile attacking with a barrade of punches and kicks. If you look at how tigers fight in the wild, you will see a lot of bipedal attacks. Panthers roll more like our domestic cats. I find them very different from one another, but that's just my take on it :)

Okay, I will sms my friend about the Chin Na Kuen today and will post the answer here. He, by the way, learned it from the Grandmaster (Chan Yong-Fa), so that would be the lineage in this case.

Peace :)

//mika

[Ben Gash]

The missing animal is eagle. In the Chan Hung Sing lineage there are forms for all ten, as well as tiger and dragon (combined), and snake and crane (combined), 5 and 10 animal forms and animal Vs animal 2 man sets.

[extrajoseph]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
While I agree that Howard Choy is a great source his information conflicts with what I've been told by my Sifu.


I read the part in clfma forum where you signed yourself on as LiLoong; take it from me, Sifu Choy was having fun with you! In future, if you want to get some good information for free, be a little bit more humble, especially when you are talking to the experts in their turf. ;)

Since you are so keen to find out, I will give you a hint, the Chinese character for this animal is written with a "gum" (gold) radical to the left, a "lok" (deer) radical above 4 dots to the right. In Madarin it is pronounced "biao" and in Cantonese, it depends what dialect you are speaking, remember Chan Heung spoke the Sunwun dialect.

Now that should keep you busy doing some research.

JX

[Fu-Pow]

XJ-

The character you refer to means: bit, bridle or ride. It's like a horse bit that you put in an animals mouth. Hence, the radicals for metal, and deer/horse. It's not an actual animal that I can determine. Are you sure this is the correct character?

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Ben Gash
The missing animal is eagle. In the Chan Hung Sing lineage there are forms for all ten, as well as tiger and dragon (combined), and snake and crane (combined), 5 and 10 animal forms and animal Vs animal 2 man sets.

Actually, I've never heard of a Chan Hung Sing eagle form. It might have been adopted into lineages from the Yow Jing Kuen.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by CLFNole
I asked my wife for the chinese word for deer and she said it was "lok". The only animal that sounds like "dil" or "dew" is eagle.

The one thing I always found strange is that there is tiger, panther and lion. In actuality they all are cats and fight in a similar manner, of course size and speed vary. I can't imagine a lion being much different than a tiger and if in fact the lion form has alot of grappling it doesn't make sense since cats don't use joint locks. :D

Peace

Good point....I think the confusion is that people actually believe that the animal forms were created by watching animals. If you watched a panther, lion and tiger fight the techs would pretty much end up all looking the same. Because they are all big cats and they all catch their prey and fight pretty much the same way.

The more plausible theory is that the techniques existed first and were later attributed to or categorized as having the qualities of animals to fit in with philosophical ideals.

I'm really curious about the 5 other animals because they may embody aspects of CLF that I'm not familiar with.

For example, CLF Nole, in our lineage, techs/forms that embody the Tiger, Panther, Crane and Elephant are fairly obvious and predominant.

The techs/forms that embody the Snake and Dragon are less prevalent.

The Lion, Monkey, Horse and "Biao" (whatever the f it is) are totally missing or unidentifiable. They may be ways of expanding your adaptability and range as a fighter.

[CLFNole]

Fu-Pow:

Actually if you are familiar with the long poetic names of each movement such as "tiger exits cave", etc.... A lot of rather simple looking movements represent dragon or I should say have dragon in the poetic name. Some uppercuts and other techniques I can't remember because I am not into the poetic stuff.

Snake also but to a lesser extent. The other stuff is much easier to see like Tiger Claw, Panther Fist and certain movements that are Crane like. I do see your point though.

Truthfully it doesn't matter too much because there are only so many ways one can kick and punch. Someone could see a move as one animal while another could see a different animal with both being plausible.

To me CLF's basis is in the 10 seeds and come more or less from Shaolin teachings, the Baat Kwa sets add a Taoist influence to CLF and the animal sets bring in the teachings of Bak Yuk Fung. Although he might also be considered sil-lum.

Peace.

[Fu-Pow]

Ok...here ya go folks.

If XJ is correct then the character he refers to looks like this.....

http://www.chinalanguage.com/cgi-bin/char.cgi?9E83

....minus the gold radical which changes the meaning of the character considerably :rolleyes:

Biu in Cantonese. Pao/Biao in Mandarin.

Anways, the character means.....

"a species of roe"

At first I thought this meant "roe" as in fish eggs and that's what threw me off. But then I realized it meant "roe"as in:

Main Entry: roe deer
Function: noun
: either of two small European or Asian deer (Capreolus capreolus and C. pygarus) that have erect cylindrical antlers forked at the summit, are reddish brown in summer and grayish in winter, have a white rump patch, and are noted for their nimbleness and grace

The dots under the deer radical most likely indicate water and this is the probably the habitat that this deer likes most. Incidentally it inhabits most of China.

If it is indeed the "archaic" form for deer then the dots under the radical were probably dropped when the radical started being used more generically in other radicals. Speculation.

The animal was probably included in CLF because it is noted for it's nimble movements and grace. Not sure what a "Deer" Handset would look like though.

Here's a picture of the cute little guy if you're interested.....

http://www.funet.fi/pub/sci/bio/life/mammalia/artiodactyla/cervidae/capreolus/capreolus-1m.jpg

What still perplexes me is why my Sifu thinks its a wolf-like animal? May be a translational problem or something?

Cheers

[extrajoseph]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
XJ-

The character you refer to means: bit, bridle or ride. It's like a horse bit that you put in an animals mouth. Hence, the radicals for metal, and deer/horse. It's not an actual animal that I can determine. Are you sure this is the correct character?

Good research, well done.

The Biu in Biu Ying Kuen is definitely written with a metal radical next to the deer radical. It does mean a bit (of a bridle) but in its archaic meaning the metal radical was used to denote the fighting nature of a deer on fire (the four dotes).

Picture a horseman charging towards his enemy, the bridle (the biu) attached to his horse would flickered like a golden deer darting in the sun. It represented a deer in war with its metal shinning.

The sound biu also rerpresent a "dart" and "charging forward", although they are written differently.

As the sound of the name implied, Biu Ying Kuen is made up of biu ma (charging horse), biu ji (charging fingers) and biu jin (charging arrow-palms) techniques, sometimes in singular and sometimes in lin wun (continuous) combinations and it also has deer like kicks.

Sifu Choy used the Sunwun dialect for biu and had some fun with you. As for your Sifu thinking it was a wolf-like animal, you have to ask him why, may be he is doing a Sifu Choy on you as well!

JX

[Ben Gash]

A deer would make sense as other southern ten animals systems have the deer in this place. My resources don't show a deer form though. Do you know it XJ?
As for the origin of the eagle form? I don't know. I've seen eagle in Hung Men and Lung Ying as well.

[extrajoseph]

Originally posted by Ben Gash
A deer would make sense as other southern ten animals systems have the deer in this place. My resources don't show a deer form though. Do you know it XJ?

No, I don't need to know it, all animals move the same, it doesn't matter too much because there are only so many ways one can kick and punch. Someone could see a move as one animal while another could see a different animal with both being plausible, why bother? ;)

[Fu-Pow]

The Biu in Biu Ying Kuen is definitely written with a metal radical next to the deer radical. It does mean a bit (of a bridle) but in its archaic meaning the metal radical was used to denote the fighting nature of a deer on fire (the four dotes).

FP: That sounds very bizarre. The fighting nature of a deer on fire?

Picture a horseman charging towards his enemy, the bridle (the biu) attached to his horse would flickered like a golden deer darting in the sun. It represented a deer in war with its metal shinning.

FP: Ok that was my next question...that is...how did they get the meaning of horse bit from "golden deer on fire"?

The sound biu also rerpresent a "dart" and "charging forward", although they are written differently.

As the sound of the name implied, Biu Ying Kuen is made up of biu ma (charging horse), biu ji (charging fingers) and biu jin (charging arrow-palms) techniques, sometimes in singular and sometimes in lin wun (continuous) combinations and it also has deer like kicks.

FP: Hmmm...very interesting. So they are using Biu (as in deer) as a h0mphone for Biu (as in "thrust"). Those clever old Chinese guys, what will they suprise us with next?

[Fu-Pow]

XJ-

Have you seen the other forms we were talking about earlier such as Si Ying, Ma Ying or Hau Ying?

What kind of flavor or what kind of techs do these form utilize?

[CLFNole]

Extrajoseph:

Your sarcasm never ceases to amaze me. That wasn't my point, just that ones CLF life isn't over if you never learn all the animal sets. I know all CLF sets have a main point to them but with so many thats a lot of points or more likely a lot of repeated points.

But then again you usually emerge from your cave to stir things up. ;) Besides you didn't quote me so I should charge you for the plagarism. Come on give me some props, huh!

Gung hai faht choy, sun tai gin hong.

Peace.

[extrajoseph]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow

The Biu in Biu Ying Kuen is definitely written with a metal radical next to the deer radical. It does mean a bit (of a bridle) but in its archaic meaning the metal radical was used to denote the fighting nature of a deer on fire (the four dotes).

FP: That sounds very bizarre. The fighting nature of a deer on fire?

JX: Fire refers to the Fire element, whose nature is penetrating and destructive. The archaic character made of a deer radical above a gold radical actually means fighting.

FP: Hmmm...very interesting. So they are using Biu (as in deer) as a h0mphone for Biu (as in "thrust"). Those clever old Chinese guys, what will they suprise us with next?

JX: Chinese women, ask CLFNole!

[Fu-Pow]

You mean this one....

http://www.chinalanguage.com/cgi-bin/char.cgi?93D6

One question....why does the character "biao" minus the gold radical also mean to "cultivate the land?" What is the connection between fire, deers and cultivating land?

[extrajoseph]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
XJ-

Have you seen the other forms we were talking about earlier such as Si Ying, Ma Ying or Hau Ying?

What kind of flavor or what kind of techs do these form utilize?

I have seen these three you mentioned, Si Ying uses a lot of palm techniques and low stances, Ma Ying is very strong in the footwork and Dan Lan and Hau Ying is fun to watch, some movements are surprisingly deadly like rolling along the ground and come up under your crouch with a Yum Waat!

I am going to go back into my cave now and give you guys some peace. Frank, its your turn!

CLFNole, no hard feelings, you have a nice year of the monkey too and watch out for that yum waat from you know who!:D

[CLFNole]

Extrajoseph:

My year is monkey and we had my sister-in-law go to the temple in HK to see if this is a good year for us to have a child. Much to my delight the fortune was good although they indicated a girl. A girl would be fine but if she is like my wife she will prefer shopping to kung fu.

Had a question for you. I think you are familiar with Sifu Poon Fun. Well I have his Ng Lun Ma book and while similar to the version I know it is different in some areas. It is also different from the Chan Wing Fa version I have on vcd. I was wondering which yours is like since your dad is from the Chan Yiu Chi line although not through the family line. Is it more like the Chan Family vcd or Poon Fun's book?

Peace.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Animal kung fu is very good, especially clf and hung gar. That's because there're lots of animals in southern china to learn from.

Dragon strong but slow swinging action that relies on finger strength to grab an opponent to pull him down. The style looks regal and magestic.

Tiger beats dragon is less strong but faster. Uses the heal of the palm to pry open the opponent's bridge as you rush in and claw them with your fingers. Not much leg work.

Snake is faster and beats tiger. teaches you to stick to the opponent like wing chun but has the advantage of powerful finger strikes with proper conditioning.

Crane beats snake. Swinging arms to beat off opponents, plus front kicks, crane beak strike and good evasion with nimble foot work.

Leapord is a smaller cat and does not use claws. It uses the paw to throw quick punches at the opponent. It has round hits, upper cuts and tends to leap from a crouching position. Pound for pound, a leapord is stronger than a tiger.

[Ben Gash]

Ego, are you , like, feeling OK man?

[extrajoseph]

Good luck, a Monkey dad with a Monkey girl will be great but make sure you have two bathrooms in the house, when she grows up she will hog one for sure.

I have not seen CWF's vcd but Poon Fun's picture book looked close enough to what I have learned, I remembered thinking ours got a few more moves.

JX

[extrajoseph]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
You mean this one....

http://www.chinalanguage.com/cgi-bin/char.cgi?93D6

One question....why does the character "biao" minus the gold radical also mean to "cultivate the land?" What is the connection between fire, deers and cultivating land?

In primative time, China was full of trees and deers, the farmers lived in this environment and had a strong identification with them. If they want to cultivate the land they have to first clear the land with fire by chopping down the trees and burn them to use as fertilizer and the deers began to disappear....

Sounds familiar, doesn't it? The way we continue to destroy our environment.

Did you know the deer radical with the earth radical under means dust? When a herd of deers starts to run they sure kick up a lot of earth and made the dust.

I love the picturegrams of Chinese characters, they can tell such interesting stories just by looking at them.

JX

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Other good animals styles are

Dog kung fu, which is great for ground fighting and take downs. Most styles can beat the tiger and dragon, but not the leapord, snake or crane.

Monkey is good and better than the snake or leapord. Lizard kung fu is very powerful, allows rooting on walls. Eagle claw is powerful due to the finger strength - rips through flesh and crushes bones.

A person who knows eagle would break the arms and legs of someone who knows tiger kung fu before crushing his wind pipe and making him spit blood as he rolls in agnoy on the ground.

Praying Mantis is the most powerful. The mantis hook pierces flesh, which makes it faster than the eagle. It is truly a thundering style. In the time the eagle takes to crush the bones and break the joins, the mantis claw would have pierces the sides, rib cage or vital arteries of his opponent.

In all finger strength and flexibility are the main requirements of kung fu.

[CLFNole]

Extrajoseph:

One of the reasons I asked was because I wondered how the teachings were directly through the family (ie. Sifu Chan Wing Fa)versus students of the family (i.e. your father would studied with Chan Yiu Chi).

I was curious if forms were different (seems like as forms pass generations they change somewhat) and if students outside the family were exposed to all 10 animal sets or were some kept in the family?

Also were all the internal sets kept in the family or were they passed to some high-level (long time) non-family students?

I also never realized than Chan Yiu Chi had a brother. Not much is mentioned of him in CLF history you can read in english. Do you know of him? Are his students around today?

Peace.

[extrajoseph]

The transmission of Chan Family CLF has always been feudalistic in nature, the higher level forms get passed down only through the family members and the inner chamber disciples. It is only during recent times that the internal sets and the rare animal forms were taught openly and to the western students.

My father's generation seldom taught openly for various reasons (in my father case he was very rich and there is no need for him to teach kung fu for a living, he only taught me and my cousin but he gave it away years ago) and the Chan family was isolated in China until after the Cultural Revolution, so it was not until Chan Wing Fat made his way to Australia that we get to see some of their family art.

Because we are human it is only natural that one generation taught slightly different to another, but the essence was always there.

Chan Yiu Chi had a brother and a sister but they did not continue the family tradition so they don't have any surviving students today, hence we don't hear anyone mentioning them.

JX

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

It really depends on what animals were around the villages. If its prone to tigers then they learn tiger. Sarmers also work extensively with ox, and would leaen ox kung fu. Snakes and cranes are also quite common.

[redmantis3]

Too bad I just discovered this thread today. Hopefully some of those who were taking part in this discussion are still around:confused:

In reading through, I see that everyone pretty much agreed that the 10th animal of CLF (the Biu) was some type of Golden/Fire Deer. Now, I'm not a CLF player in any way, I'm strictly Ng Ga Kuen of Ark Y. Wongs lineage. I have done quite a bit of research on the origins, commonalities and differences of the Five Family Styles (Fut, Hung, Choy, Li, Mok). In regards to this topic in particular, my research has led me to believe that, at minimum, Ng Ga Kuen, Hung Ga and CLF all have the same list of 10 animals (Dragon, Snake, Tiger, Leopard, Crane, Lion, Monkey, Elephant, Horse, and Biu). However, in the process of my research, I have never heard the "Biu" reffered to as some type of deer and have never seen the character that was previously posted here. What I have discovered to be common amongst our Family Styles, is the the "Biu" is always reffered to as a creature related to the large cat family; sometimes called Panther, Jaguar, Tiger Cub or Small Tiger.

The way it was explained to me by GM Ma Seming was that when GM Wong Ark Yuey first introduced the form to non-chinese students, he called the Biu, the Panther for the sake of simplicity; but, that the "Biu" is actually a mythical beast known only in Chinese culture. It is somewhat like a small yet very strong tiger.

The character that I have found to be commonly used for this creaturer is:

4578




I would like to know more about the "deer" story and to know others interpretation of the "Biu" which I have discussed.

Steven Perez
S5CBA

[banditshaw]

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/3741/threadnecromancyns1ja0.jpg

[diego]

The transmission of Chan Family CLF has always been feudalistic in nature, the higher level forms get passed down only through the family members and the inner chamber disciples. It is only during recent times that the internal sets and the rare animal forms were taught openly and to the western students.

My father's generation seldom taught openly for various reasons (in my father case he was very rich and there is no need for him to teach kung fu for a living, he only taught me and my cousin but he gave it away years ago) and the Chan family was isolated in China until after the Cultural Revolution, so it was not until Chan Wing Fat made his way to Australia that we get to see some of their family art.

Because we are human it is only natural that one generation taught slightly different to another, but the essence was always there.

Chan Yiu Chi had a brother and a sister but they did not continue the family tradition so they don't have any surviving students today, hence we don't hear anyone mentioning them.

JX
Hello Joseph X:cool: Gung Fu and the cultural revolution is a very interesting part of history to me plus I'm fascinated by the culture of CLF. What was it like for the Chan fam during the cultural revolution?. In Robert smith's Martial Musings text his friend Rose who was around Sun Lu Tang and them back in the day mentioned that Chen Style Tai Ji fam were all addicted to opium during WW2 as there was so much depression and very little food...they survived on weeds, tai ji and chasing the dragon:(. Very fascinating parts of history, would you please share some CLF war stories?:)

[diego]

Too bad I just discovered this thread today. Hopefully some of those who were taking part in this discussion are still around:confused:

In reading through, I see that everyone pretty much agreed that the 10th animal of CLF (the Biu) was some type of Golden/Fire Deer. Now, I'm not a CLF player in any way, I'm strictly Ng Ga Kuen of Ark Y. Wongs lineage. I have done quite a bit of research on the origins, commonalities and differences of the Five Family Styles (Fut, Hung, Choy, Li, Mok). In regards to this topic in particular, my research has led me to believe that, at minimum, Ng Ga Kuen, Hung Ga and CLF all have the same list of 10 animals (Dragon, Snake, Tiger, Leopard, Crane, Lion, Monkey, Elephant, Horse, and Biu). However, in the process of my research, I have never heard the "Biu" reffered to as some type of deer and have never seen the character that was previously posted here. What I have discovered to be common amongst our Family Styles, is the the "Biu" is always reffered to as a creature related to the large cat family; sometimes called Panther, Jaguar, Tiger Cub or Small Tiger.

The way it was explained to me by GM Ma Seming was that when GM Wong Ark Yuey first introduced the form to non-chinese students, he called the Biu, the Panther for the sake of simplicity; but, that the "Biu" is actually a mythical beast known only in Chinese culture. It is somewhat like a small yet very strong tiger.

The character that I have found to be commonly used for this creaturer is:

4578




I would like to know more about the "deer" story and to know others interpretation of the "Biu" which I have discussed.

Steven Perez
S5CBA

Hello Steven, I wonder does the Monkey in your list resemble Tai Shing Pek Gwa?:)

James

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Biu is the Tiger Cub....

The tiger without claws.....

Do any of you guys have a 10 animal form??

I admit though, we didn't know what it was for a few years...lol

[CLFNole]

Some refer to Tiger Cub as the 10th animal while others refer to Deer. I believe the Chan Family considers deer, whereas i recall DFW using tiger cub.

A baby animal if you will would seem rather odd to me. I remember XJ describing the deer form some time ago in this post in fact. If I recall it was a bit of an obscure character combining the character for lok - "deer" with another.

[Eric Olson]

Some refer to Tiger Cub as the 10th animal while others refer to Deer. I believe the Chan Family considers deer, whereas i recall DFW using tiger cub.

I baby animal if you will would seem rather odd to me. I remember XJ describing the deer form some time ago in this post in fact. If I recall it was a bit of an obscure character combining the character for lok - "deer" with another.

The Tiger Cub and the Golden Deer are ****nyms in Chinese...but if XJ is correct, the character is the deer, not the Tiger Cub.

EO

[Eric Olson]

The Tiger Cub and the Golden Deer are ****nyms in Chinese...but if XJ is correct, the character is the deer, not the Tiger Cub.

EO

Lol at h0monyms being censored.

EO

[Lama Pai Sifu]

In our family, it's a tiger cub. I didn't have to read the character, my teacher told me what it was and drew a picture when I clearly had not understood him.

Did any of you learn the Sahp Ying Kuyhn?? In our version, it's clear it's a Tiger Cub.

We've got;

Dragon,
Snake,
Tiger,
Leopard,
Crane,

Horse,
Monkey,
Tiger Cub,
Lion,
Elephant.

Do some of you know a 10 animal form???

[Eric Olson]

In our family, it's a tiger cub. I didn't have to read the character, my teacher told me what it was and drew a picture when I clearly had not understood him.

Did any of you learn the Sahp Ying Kuyhn?? In our version, it's clear it's a Tiger Cub.

We've got;

Dragon,
Snake,
Tiger,
Leopard,
Crane,

Horse,
Monkey,
Tiger Cub,
Lion,
Elephant.

Do some of you know a 10 animal form???

I never learned a ten animal form.

When I asked my old CLF Sifu, Mak Fai, he told me it was a Tiger Cub too but I thought it was suspect.

If it is a Tiger Cub then what are the techniques? And how are they be substantially different than a Tiger? I see that one of your classmates have a clip of Saap Ying on You Tube.

EO

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Yes, BIU is TIGER CUB! For those of you that heard it from your Sifu's, they were correct. IT IS A TIGER CUB, PERIOD!

It has 3/4 leopard claws, the knuckles aren't fully extended, it strikes with the inside of the hand and uses a 'pawing' motion, much like a house cat. It uses claws also, but they are small and are used with the hand almost clenched.

It is not a deer, forget ****phones or characters for a moment. If a teacher didn't learn the 10 animal form, he might have got the character wrong or made a mistake. A few of you have already claimed that your teachers said it was the tiger cub. They were right.

If you learned the form, you should know. If not, I think some of you are just guessing.

[CFT]

彪 means tiger/young tiger.

http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-can/search.php?q=%B3C

There is also the phrase: 彪形大漢 which means a powerful looking man.

[jdhowland]

I was told that this "tenth animal" was either a "tiger-cat" (cat=cub?) or a "young lion," but never remembered the chinese term. The ten animals are supposed to be the same in many southern siu lam styles.

[redmantis3]

James,

Ng Ga Kuen actually has 2 Monkey forms which "kinda", resemble Tai Shing Pek Gwa. The postures are higher with an arched back, some rolling but not too much and little hopping. I believe the movements are based upon the Golden Monkey of China.

To everyone else who's been participating in my revival of this dead thread.:eek:

I appriciate all of your input.

As for the Biu, the tiger-cub is what the character is usually translated as however, I don't believe it to literally mean a "young or small tiger". As I mentioned before, I was told that the Biu was a mythical beast, unknown, outside of China. Also, if you analyze the character itself, you see that it is made up of the character for Tiger plus an additional three strokes which suggest a very powerful tiger. In chinese language, Biu is almost never used by itself and is generally used with several other characters (as CFT posted) to describe a very strong/powerful man. So, I don't see how it could mean "tiger-cub", at least, not in the way that westerners envision a "cub". So, any more thoughts on what the Biu actually is:confused:

I do agree with Lama Pai Sifu, in Ng Ga Kuen, the Biu uses more slashing and swiping motions and the hand formation is somewhere between our Leopard and Tiger Claw. There are a few throat grabs and a couple of times when we utilize the Leopard fist. I'd like to here more on how the rest of you use it in your systems.

The reason I brought up the "deer" story was not because of the character being used but because the pinyin "Biu/Biao" I assumed that the same animal was trying to be conveyed.

Steven Perez
S5CBA

[Ben Gash]

What I hate about necromancy is it reminds me how F***ing clueless I used to be :rolleyes: Biu is Tiger Cub, we had this discussion about 18 months ago and the Kuen Pos from Chan Yiu Chi clearly say Biu Ying/Tiger cub shape.

[Eric Olson]

What I hate about necromancy is it reminds me how F***ing clueless I used to be :rolleyes: Biu is Tiger Cub, we had this discussion about 18 months ago and the Kuen Pos from Chan Yiu Chi clearly say Biu Ying/Tiger cub shape.

So how do you reconcile that with what Howard Choy and XJ say...that it is a deer? Whatever people might write in CAPS, there seems to be some disagreement about the 10th animal.

EO

[Lama Pai Sifu]

people can say what they want, but it doesn't change the fact that it is a tiger cub. Most of those posting here have not learned it, and you are having discussions about what you think it is, based on the chinese character?

Eric Olsen, your teacher told you and you were suspect? And Red Mantis; you were told it was a mythological creature by whom? And it sounds like you want to believe that. Its a tiger cub everyone....let it go.

[NGKSMM]

According to these 3 online Chinese English dictionary. The consensus for biao is tiger cat. I don't know or heard anyone ever see one.

input biao as pin yin and see for yourself.

http://www.tigernt.com/cgi-bin/cedict.cgi

http://www.mandarintools.com/


http://www.yellowbridge.com/chinese/chinese-dictionary.php

[Eric Olson]

people can say what they want, but it doesn't change the fact that it is a tiger cub. Most of those posting here have not learned it, and you are having discussions about what you think it is, based on the chinese character?

Mike, no offense man, but its not a tiger cub because you say it is. You gotta go back to the source to know what the original idea or concept was.




Eric Olsen, your teacher told you and you were suspect?

I don't believe everything that any one person tells me...no matter who they are. I do my own research and decide for myself. And I've heard two conflicting stories on it. Its a little suspicious considering that the spoken word "Biao" can mean two different things.

Also, consider that there is no stand alone "Tiger-Cub" form but Chan Family has a "Biu" form.

Also, considering Howard Choy's position and proximity to the source I take more stock in his translation.

I don't practice CLF anymore so my interest in this topic is wearing thin but I did a lot of research on CLF forms and theory back in the day. Don't take my word for it (which you won't), try to take a look at any source material and see if the Tiger-Cub theory holds up.

Cheers

EO

[cerebus]

Platypus. I know for a fact that the 10th animal is the platypus. Just take my word for it.....

[Drake]

Nah.. it's a Patagonian Snow Leopard...

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Mike, no offense man, but its not a tiger cub because you say it is. You gotta go back to the source to know what the original idea or concept was.



I don't believe everything that any one person tells me...no matter who they are. I do my own research and decide for myself. And I've heard two conflicting stories on it. Its a little suspicious considering that the spoken word "Biao" can mean two different things.

Also, consider that there is no stand alone "Tiger-Cub" form but Chan Family has a "Biu" form.

Also, considering Howard Choy's position and proximity to the source I take more stock in his translation.

I don't practice CLF anymore so my interest in this topic is wearing thin but I did a lot of research on CLF forms and theory back in the day. Don't take my word for it (which you won't), try to take a look at any source material and see if the Tiger-Cub theory holds up.

Cheers

EO

I am not offended at all eric. :)

You have not learned the form, maybe if you had, you'd see that the movements are 'cat-like' and not 'deer-like'.

Again, you can all argue about the character and the fact that Chan Family scripts call it a tiger cub, a bunch of other people call it tiger cub, those who learned it call it tiger cub, my teacher and apparently your old teacher and some others have called it tiger cub...blah blah blah.

Howard Choy is a human and therefore it is possible that he had made a mistake, no?

My Sifu died a few years ago at almost 90 years old. He'd been doing CLF since the early 1930's, meaning, he'd been around for quite awhile. He'd become an expert in CLF long before some of today's teachers were ever born. My 'opinion' or me 'saying it is a tiger cub' does not come from me, but information from 'him'. Chan Tai-San said it was a Tiger Cub, I and many others consider him quite a credible source of CLF information. Not to mention that he did teach a few of us the 10 animal form. Most of your are debating this deer/tiger cub thing, but don't know the form. Some of your teachers didn't know the form either. How can you discuss or debate the issue if you never even learned the form/movements? That sounds like someone talking about Gung-Fu while never learning it? A loose comparison, but still, you get the point.

Still, it is what it is, whether you want to debate it or not.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ah kids so young and so naive...

Its obviously the rare and much sought after Bald Beaver.

[Drake]

You know... you usually have a picture to back up much of what you say.

*hint hint*

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Ah kids so young and so naive...

Its obviously the rare and much sought after Bald Beaver.

You are confused. That Bald Beaver is Brazilian, not Chinese. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

You know... you usually have a picture to back up much of what you say.

*hint hint*


You are confused. That Bald Beaver is Brazilian, not Chinese.

Hmmm.......

[David Jamieson]

xingyi (hsing i) has 12 animals, which include deer.

I think this 10 animal is style specific although it does include some of the architypal animals of chinese martial arts.

there are of course others and even insects on the list of various animal forms expressed in chinese martial arts.

I would imagine that CLF has it's stable and of course it would have to include the big 5 as shown.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

You know... you usually have a picture to back up much of what you say.

*hint hint*

Here is said pic! From 1991 (17) years ago!!!!

Some of you whelps haven't been practicing for that long, this was in my first full-time school. This is probably then end of 91, October or November. I've been doing CLF for over 20 years, so for those of you who haven't even learned the 'Biu', here is what one of the techniques look like.

TIGER CUB of CLF "BIU" (http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l212/longislandonline/scan0003.jpg)

End

[sanjuro_ronin]

Here is said pic! From 1991 (17) years ago!!!!

Some of you whelps haven't been practicing for that long, this was in my first full-time school. This is probably then end of 91, October or November. I've been doing CLF for over 20 years, so for those of you who haven't even learned the 'Biu', here is what one of the techniques look like.

TIGER CUB of CLF "BIU" (http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l212/longislandonline/scan0003.jpg)

End
I saw that move done by John Travolta, what are you trying to pull ??
:D

[CLFNole]

Is it possible that the 10th animal in the 10 Animal form is the tiger cub and the individual biu ying kuen form is a deer?

Not sure anyone knows the individual 10 forms. We don't have a 10-animal form so I can't comment on it but there are 10 individual animal forms aside from the 5-animal and 10-animal sets.

[Eric Olson]

Is it possible that the 10th animal in the 10 Animal form is the tiger cub and the individual biu ying kuen form is a deer?

Not sure anyone knows the individual 10 forms. We don't have a 10-animal form so I can't comment on it but there are 10 individual animal forms aside from the 5-animal and 10-animal sets.

Good point. So maybe there are actually 11 animals of CLF?

EO

[lkfmdc]

Good point. So maybe there are actually 11 animals of CLF?

EO

There are actually 13, including the flying squirrel

[CLFNole]

Don't forget the Golden ****roach... oh know what is that I hear the shaolin do guys will be coming.

That is an insect so it wouldn't count.

[redmantis3]

people can say what they want, but it doesn't change the fact that it is a tiger cub. Most of those posting here have not learned it, and you are having discussions about what you think it is, based on the chinese character?

Eric Olsen, your teacher told you and you were suspect? And Red Mantis; you were told it was a mythological creature by whom? And it sounds like you want to believe that. Its a tiger cub everyone....let it go.

Mike,

First off, I don't understand how anything that has been handed down through generations, can be considered absolute fact. We have all been witness to and sometimes a part of "my form is the original, never modified, pure version" and we all know that the "fact" is it may or may not be true but we have no means of validating, 100%, such a comment. So, to me, everything is up for debate.

As for my discussion about the Biu, yes I learned the form in 1993 and based on that "fact" I still don't believe the animal to be a Tiger-Cub. The Biu that I learned does not bring to mind a young animal; it is a fierce, very strong, unrelenting form; there's no playfulness, no timid behavior, NO cub like features. In relation, the character when used descriptively, conveys the image of a big, powerful, muscular man (a pro football lineman, not Oscar dela Hoya). Also, maybe I used the wrong word but, I did not mean to imply that the creature was mythological (imaginary, fictitious). To me there's a slightly different implication to mythical (something considered myth but based upon more reliable evidence). So, my personal thought here as to what the Biu might have actually been was maybe a now extinct or rarely sighted tiger species (i.e. the South China Tiger, Sumatran Tiger, etc) as opposed to a more common tiger which our Tiger forms are based upon.

Either way, I'm not trying to change anyones mind on the subject, just trying to get some good varied opinions and to see how the story differs form style to style, from lineage to lineage, etc.

Steven Perez
S5CBA

[Eric Olson]

There are actually 13, including the flying squirrel

Lol...and don't forget the plum flower and the 25 other plant forms of CLF.

EO

[WinterPalm]

I thought the plant forms were inner-backdoor training secrets?

[jdhowland]

...maybe a now extinct or rarely sighted tiger species (i.e. the South China Tiger, Sumatran Tiger, etc) as opposed to a more common tiger which our Tiger forms are based upon.

I wonder if the word might have originally meant another type of wildcat, perhaps a kind of lynx.

[Eric Olson]

I wonder if the word might have originally meant another type of wildcat, perhaps a kind of lynx.

Its been a few years since I had the conversation with Sifu Mak but I think he originally told me it was something like a wolf. He drew the character and when I looked it up it said Tiger-Cub, but I think you are right that this isn't a perfect translation for what it actually means.

Cheers,

EO

[MasterKiller]

Maybe it was an Asian Fishing Cat (http://images.google.com/images?q=fishing+cAT&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&um=1)

[sanjuro_ronin]

it's so obviously the rare bald *****:

[lkfmdc]

it really depends upon the lineage, in some schools the bald ***** is replaced by the trouser worm

;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

it really depends upon the lineage, in some schools the bald ***** is replaced by the trouser worm

;)

Yeah, you can keep those schools, my my cub-of-tea.
Speaking of tea bagging:

[lkfmdc]

Last time I had tea at your place, it tasted all fishy! :mad:

[NGKSMM]

It seems there is no certainty of what biu / biao is. How about snake, what kind of snake (s) of your solo, combined 10 animal forms? Python, cobra, water/sea snake…….. or just any kind?

[htowndragon]

i asked some chinese elders that i know what the character "biu" or "biao" means and they couldn't give me a very good description. the idea i got however, is not of a "cub". the mandarin term "biao han" means fierce/powerful/tough man, it is rarely seen as a character by itself. when described, i was getting the idea that it was some sort of long lost wild cat that was in china at some point.

[cjurakpt]

I wonder if the word might have originally meant another type of wildcat, perhaps a kind of lynx.

ocelot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ocelot.jpg) - it just has to be an ocelot...I mean, they are just so cute!

[Eric Olson]

Asian golden cat?:

http://www.abf90.dial.pipex.com/bco/asgold.htm

[extrajoseph]

It seems there is no certainty of what biu / biao is. How about snake, what kind of snake (s) of your solo, combined 10 animal forms? Python, cobra, water/sea snake…….. or just any kind?

A biao or biu in Cantones is a species of roe, a small spotted deer. It is one of the 10 CLF animals.

The Chinese character is written with a deer radical on top and four dots below. Haven't got time to locate it for you just right now.

[NGKSMM]

A biao or biu in Cantones is a species of roe, a small spotted deer. It is one of the 10 CLF animals.

The Chinese character is written with a deer radical on top and four dots below. Haven't got time to locate it for you just right now.

Thanks for the reply. You meant the Chinese writing for this CLF animal is this one (1st pix), not this one (2nd pix)?
btw, a spotted deer is commonly call "mui fa luk" in Cantonese.

[CFT]

For the Chinese literate (sorry for those who are not):

麃 - http://www.zdic.net/zd/zi/ZdicE9ZdicBAZdic83.htm
彪 - http://www.zdic.net/zd/zi/ZdicE5ZdicBDZdicAA.htm

1st is associated with deer, horned animal
2nd is associated with the tiger

What character do you use in your lineage?

[Eric Olson]

A biao or biu in Cantones is a species of roe, a small spotted deer. It is one of the 10 CLF animals.

The Chinese character is written with a deer radical on top and four dots below. Haven't got time to locate it for you just right now.

Its this one, right XJ?:

http://www.chinalanguage.com/dictionaries/ccdict/view.php?query=9463&encoding=text

or this one?:

http://www.chinalanguage.com/dictionaries/ccdict/view.php?query=9E83&encoding=text&mode=english&lang=en&beijing=pinyin&canton=jyutping&meixian=pinjim&sound=0&fields=english

[CFT]

Its this one, right XJ?:

http://www.chinalanguage.com/dictionaries/ccdict/view.php?query=9463&encoding=text

or this one?:

http://www.chinalanguage.com/dictionaries/ccdict/view.php?query=9E83&encoding=text&mode=english&lang=en&beijing=pinyin&canton=jyutping&meixian=pinjim&sound=0&fields=englishThe 2nd one

[sanjuro_ronin]

Last time I had tea at your place, it tasted all fishy! :mad:

It was.
:D

[Ben Gash]

In the King Mui scripts it's http://www.zdic.net/zd/zi/ZdicE5ZdicBDZdicAA.htm
http://www.plumblossom.net/PhotoAlbum/KingMuiVillage/kingmuiscripts.html

[Eric Olson]

In the King Mui scripts it's http://www.zdic.net/zd/zi/ZdicE5ZdicBDZdicAA.htm
http://www.plumblossom.net/PhotoAlbum/KingMuiVillage/kingmuiscripts.html

So who is right? Who has the best evidence? Or are both right, are there 11 animals in CLF?

Discerning CLF players everywhere want to know. ;).

EO

[lkfmdc]

彪 - http://www.zdic.net/zd/zi/ZdicE5ZdicBDZdicAA.htm



This is the character CTS used, and certainly the movements in the set were more like a tiger than a deer!

[Ben Gash]

So who is right? Who has the best evidence? Or are both right, are there 11 animals in CLF?

Discerning CLF players everywhere want to know. ;).

EO

Well, that page was written by Chan Yiu Chi. DFW says it's tiger cub, your sifu says it's tiger cub, Mike and Dave say it's tiger cub, so I'm going with tiger cub.

[Eric Olson]

Well, that page was written by Chan Yiu Chi. DFW says it's tiger cub, your sifu says it's tiger cub, Mike and Dave say it's tiger cub, so I'm going with tiger cub.

I see your point but I think that's too small of a sample to truly know what the consensus is.

I'd like to hear more what XJ has to say about this. What he basing his statements on? What is his evidence? Who else agrees with him?

But there is a separate issue as well....if the symbol is indeed the "tiger-cub" or "tiger stripes" symbol...what the hell does it mean? Is it really a tiger or something else? Why would a tiger cub be considered as a separate animal from a tiger? In other words, what were the CLF ancestors thinking with the whole tiger cub thing?

Cheers

EO

[lkfmdc]

what were the CLF ancestors thinking with the whole tiger cub thing?



Chan Heung: "hey, disciples, come over here"

Disciples: "yes sifu?"

CH: "You know, in about a 100 years people in the US will be doing CLF and wont' really know Chinese characters very well."

D: "uh, ok, so?"

CH: "You know that 9 animal set I was working on? Well, 9 isn't a good round number anyway so I was thinking of a 10th animal, right?"

D: "uh, ok, so what are you going to use?"

CH: "Biu!"

(all laugh out loud then go down to the tea house for ha gow and siu mai!)

[CFT]

I would just take "biu" as tiger-like rather than a straight translation of tiger cub. It has already been posted on this thread that there are tiger elements in the form, but what qualities of the form would suggest a cub?

I 2nd the motion for har gow and siu mai.

[CLFNole]

Last time I watched the Discovery Channel, tiger cubs, lion cubs, etc... got eaten by other predators unless Mom & Dad were around. At least a deer can run fast. :D

[CFT]

So you have a "running fast" form then? :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

LOL @ the tag "gold stream monster fist"
WTF ???

[CLFNole]

I am not sure which is better the dying quick form or the running away form? :confused:

[extrajoseph]

Its this one, right XJ?:

http://www.chinalanguage.com/dictionaries/ccdict/view.php?query=9463&encoding=text

or this one?:

http://www.chinalanguage.com/dictionaries/ccdict/view.php?query=9E83&encoding=text&mode=english&lang=en&beijing=pinyin&canton=jyutping&meixian=pinjim&sound=0&fields=english

The second character can be used in lieu of the first when it is in a martial context. The additional gold radical to the left refers to the penetrating or cutting power of Metal as in the five Elements.

The Biao Xing Quan or Biu Ying Kuen in Cantonese is best suited for the small guys who trained for speed and agility like a little spotted deer, it takes best advantage of their body type..

[CLFNole]

XJ:

Does this form in any way incorporate what might be considered "light skill" for evasive purposes? Just when I think of what deers do this came to mind, that and a few too many Shaw Brothers movies.

Just curious have you seen or did you learn this set? I would imagine it is probably pretty rare in CLF circles.

[extrajoseph]

Rare in the west cos you guys are huge. Not so in China when the size is much smaller. The ability to get out of the way then jump back in comes handy. Why have a Tiger Cub form when there is a Tiger form already?

[extrajoseph]

So who is right? Who has the best evidence? Or are both right, are there 11 animals in CLF?

Discerning CLF players everywhere want to know. ;).

EO

There is no kuen Po for the Deer form in this lot. They are not the original, only hand copies with exception of one.

[lkfmdc]

Rare in the west cos you guys are huge. Not so in China when the size is much smaller. The ability to get out of the way then jump back in comes handy. Why have a Tiger Cub form when there is a Tiger form already?

if teh tiger is king of the beasts, why a leopard and a lion? We don't seem to be arguing over those?

[Lama Pai Sifu]

I think it's safe to say it may be another type of cat, that may look like a little tiger...like the ones posted on here already.

But the fact remains that most people, especially people in the know and the Kuyhn Po's are stating it's a tiger cub (we know that might mean a type of cat)

It think the 'goose' chase to find the 'deer' is coming to an end.

Those of us who know the form, know that it is 'cat-like' movements, not 'deer-like'.

[Eric Olson]

I think it's safe to say it may be another type of cat, that may look like a little tiger...like the ones posted on here already.

But the fact remains that most people, especially people in the know and the Kuyhn Po's are stating it's a tiger cub (we know that might mean a type of cat)

When I was doing research on forms I came across a CLF "cat" form. I wonder if this is the same one?



It think the 'goose' chase to find the 'deer' is coming to an end.

Seeing as XJ will not present any evidence to the contrary, you may be correct. Alternatively, there may be a deer form AND a cat-cub form, CLF has added all kinds of forms along the way

But what I'd really like to know is, was there a theoretical basis for 10 animals at the beginning....like in Chan Heung's day? The world may never know.

EO

[CLFNole]

I have to disagree, not saying you are wrong but I don't think you can say you are ultimately right either. You know the 10-animal form but not the individual biu ying kuen form, correct? If those are not original kuen po's like XJ mentioned who is to say that DFW didn't translate the character incorrectly. One of Chan Wing Fat/Chen Yong Fa's top people said it is "deer" and that is coming directly through Chan Hueng's family line. Someone can't simply say it translates to Tiger Cub unless Chan Yiu Chi secretely knew English and has duplicate copies in english.

The fact is many of the characters used in kung fu are not common words or characters used in normal conversations and lets face it most of our sifus and their sifus and so on were not exactly members of Mensa International. It is very easy for a character to get translated differently.

[lkfmdc]

The fact is many of the characters used in kung fu are not common words or characters used in normal conversations and lets face it most of our sifus and their sifus and so on were not exactly members of Mensa International. It is very easy for a character to get translated differently.

All sadly way too true :p

I tend to think that for our lineage, it's some sort of cat... maybe for others it is a deer? Impossible to say what it "originally was"!?!?!?!?

Sort of why the "my stuff is pure" thing is played to death

[NGKSMM]

For the Chinese literate (sorry for those who are not):

麃 - http://www.zdic.net/zd/zi/ZdicE9ZdicBAZdic83.htm
彪 - http://www.zdic.net/zd/zi/ZdicE5ZdicBDZdicAA.htm

1st is associated with deer, horned animal
2nd is associated with the tiger

What character do you use in your lineage?

Thanks, this dictionary said the 1st character is a deer-like one horned animal, could be a unicorn or rhino; also said a wolf-like animal, either saying is an assumption according to its detail explanation. The 2nd character indicates stripes of tiger, also small (little) tiger; I don’t think it means the maturity but rather the size of the tiger. If it is a tiger cub, this character (pix one) would have been used.
The second character is commonly known and used by Chinese in general.
I’m not a CLF practitioner. But we use the second one in our system.

[CLFNole]

I agree it could be either or depending on lineage. Possibly one lineage has it as a deer and hence some movements might have that influence while othes who had it as a tiger cub have movements associated with that.

We all know from experience that various movements associated with animals don't always look like an animal's movement. So while something might look tiger like or panther like it is hard to say without a doubt what animal is being depicted. Then you have the whole poem style for techinques. Without knowing what went into the creation of sets it is very hard to say what someone was thinking.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Holy crap !! 107 posts !!

:eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Actually, yours was #108. Why did you continue??????? :eek:


'sheet' i just realized i added to this confusion.........

Sucker......:D

[Indestructible]

In some lines the ten animals were dragon (lung 龍), snake (se 蛇), tiger (虎), leopard (豹), crane (鶴), lion (si 獅), elephant (jeung 象), horse (ma 馬), monkey (猴) and marten (貂)

Small tiger / cat like animal could be Marten which is in the weasel family.

[cjurakpt]

In some lines the ten animals were dragon (lung 龍), snake (se 蛇), tiger (虎), leopard (豹), crane (鶴), lion (si 獅), elephant (jeung 象), horse (ma 馬), monkey (猴) and marten (貂)

Small tiger / cat like animal could be Marten which is in the weasel family.

uh oh Dave & Mike - he's getting close to uncovering the secret of Weasel Pai...

[extrajoseph]

9 of the 10 animal forms are the same: (lung 龍), snake (se 蛇), tiger (虎), leopard (豹), crane (鶴), lion (si 獅), elephant (jeung 象), horse (ma 馬), and monkey (猴). The last one differs from different people and style.

CLF Chan Yiu-Chi used the Golden Deer (character for a roe deer with a gold radical to the left) in his manuscripts.

Hung Kuen, and for some reason WDF’s CLF, used the Tiger Cub.

Others, like the Black Tiger 10 Animals form, used the Marten.

Why the variations? The reason being although the 3 characters are written differently and have different meanings, they all sounded much the same in Guandong dialects and since most instructions in the past were passed down verbally first and then written down later on, that led to discrepancies over time.

[lkfmdc]

anything is possible, haven't we learned that yet?

[diego]

9 of the 10 animal forms are the same: (lung 龍), snake (se 蛇), tiger (虎), leopard (豹), crane (鶴), lion (si 獅), elephant (jeung 象), horse (ma 馬), and monkey (猴). The last one differs from different people and style.

CLF Chan Yiu-Chi used the Golden Deer (character for a roe deer with a gold radical to the left) in his manuscripts.

Hung Kuen, and for some reason WDF’s CLF, used the Tiger Cub.

Others, like the Black Tiger 10 Animals form, used the Marten.

Why the variations? The reason being although the 3 characters are written differently and have different meanings, they all sounded much the same in Guandong dialects and since most instructions in the past were passed down verbally first and then written down later on, that led to discrepancies over time.
words changing over time is something...um, would it be a problem if one guy is doing skunk style when he should be doing Buffallo?:) a deer and a cat move mad different, how did the forms change?.

[extrajoseph]

In MA as in life, things constantly evolve and change, but if there is direct transmission and constant practice and renewal, then the chance of them deviate from the original source is less.

When the transmission is broken or the practice has not been kept up, then people will make things up later on without a true understanding and without a constant remainder from the source.

WDF is a good example in this case; he claimed to have direct kuen-po materials from Chan Heung’s descendants. If that being the chance, then he would have seen how they have written the character for Biao and know the exact nature of the animal and the spirit of the form it intends to transmit.

Families always have a way to hide their secrets from the outsiders, unless we are in the inner chamber, we will only be guessing; then the result is only heated discussions without any evidence to support our speculations.

I have seen the original manuscript and that is why I am speaking with confidence, but you don't know for sure that I am telling the truth, so the only way for you to make certain is to check it out with Chan Heung's descendants, if you want to know what King Mui lineage do with their 10 animals forms.

I don't know anything about Hung Gar or others, so I kept quiet as to what they would do in this regard. Please remember the topic of this thread is "The 10 animals of CLF ?".

XJ

[nospam]

extrajoseph

..yours is one outlook and a very strict traditional one at that. We all know you are a die-hard traditionalist in your belief and practise, but change is not all bad and does not necessarily mean change due from lack of understanding.

..many believe kung fu should change or at least has the capacity to change or it does change..period. I believe with each successive generation kung fu does change because we all move, feel, think, act, and learn differently.

..I don't believe anything is wrong with not changing, and history shows us more has gone wrong with change! Regardless, change tends to be inevitable and can also be for good or in the least..just different from what was. In the natural order of movement( ie kung fu), as I see it, change is inevitable. Holding on to what was or the traditional is yet one more way of doing anything and is only better or worse as perceived by the individual.

..and history is only as accurate as the person(s) recording it. History has shown it can be wrong. Of course this general debate could go on endlessly.

nospam
bak hsing kwoon
:cool:

[redmantis3]

Many excellent responses. Greatly appriciated.;)

Although we may never know the identity of the actual beast that our KF ancestors had in mind when creating the form; we have at least come to the concensus that it was some kind of Tiger-Like creature. Those who have the Deer and Marten in their lineage, it may have been a tech. error many years ago, or maybe a replacement used by someone who didn't learn all 10, or it could even be that somewhere along the line someone just felt that system would be better served by a different animal.

As for the second set of 5-animals, I would be interested to hear in what order everyone teaches them and if there's a reason for that order. Also, do any of you have more than one set for these 5 (i.e. in Ng Ga Kuen we have the Smart Monkey and Golden Monkey).


Steven Perez
S5CBA

[extrajoseph]

extrajoseph

..yours is one outlook and a very strict traditional one at that. We all know you are a die-hard traditionalist in your belief and practise, but change is not all bad and does not necessarily mean change due from lack of understanding.

..many believe kung fu should change or at least has the capacity to change or it does change..period. I believe with each successive generation kung fu does change because we all move, feel, think, act, and learn differently.

..I don't believe anything is wrong with not changing, and history shows us more has gone wrong with change! Regardless, change tends to be inevitable and can also be for good or in the least..just different from what was. In the natural order of movement( ie kung fu), as I see it, change is inevitable. Holding on to what was or the traditional is yet one more way of doing anything and is only better or worse as perceived by the individual.

..and history is only as accurate as the person(s) recording it. History has shown it can be wrong. Of course this general debate could go on endlessly.

nospam
bak hsing kwoon
:cool:

Dear Nospam

I am neither a strict traditionalist nor against changes. I use history and tradition as a yardstick to mark my innovations, therefore it is in my interest to have an accurate history and a genuine tradition to give me an accurate frame of reference and to avoid repeating the same mistakes in history.

If you appreciate the interplay of the yin yang complementary opposites, then you know history/tradition and innovation/changes are not mutually exclusive. Anythiong including history can be wrong if we do not take care and being serious in seeking the truth.

XJ

[lkfmdc]

After consulting with extremely respected mastes, I have discovered the TRUE original 100% accurate nature of the 10th CLF animal! (http://www.channel4.com/film/media/film/4x/K/kung_fu_panda_xl_02.jpg)

[extrajoseph]

Many excellent responses. Greatly appriciated.;)

As for the second set of 5-animals, I would be interested to hear in what order everyone teaches them and if there's a reason for that order. Also, do any of you have more than one set for these 5 (i.e. in Ng Ga Kuen we have the Smart Monkey and Golden Monkey).

Steven Perez
S5CBA

There is no particular reason for their preferred order, except the particular sequence of names sound good, making them poetic and easy to remember.

It is the season reason for the way we remember the sequence of the Five Elements in Chinese philosophy. Gum Mook Shui Phor Tu, instead of something else.

[nospam]

It's all good.


nospam
bak hsing kwoon
:cool:

[Eric Olson]

After consulting with extremely respected mastes, I have discovered the TRUE original 100% accurate nature of the 10th CLF animal! (http://www.channel4.com/film/media/film/4x/K/kung_fu_panda_xl_02.jpg)

Why isn't there any Panda kung fu? Oh yeah...they just eat bamboo all day.

EO

[extrajoseph]

Why isn't there any Panda kung fu? Oh yeah...they just eat bamboo all day.

EO

...and they don't do the things that they should do often enough to keep themself in business. Not a good model for us CLF guys and that is why we don't have a Panda form! :D

[extrajoseph]

Hi,

May be I am wrong, a panda do eat shoots and roots.

:eek:

[cjurakpt]

There is no particular reason for their preferred order, except the particular sequence of names sound good, making them poetic and easy to remember.

It is the season reason for the way we remember the sequence of the Five Elements in Chinese philosophy. Gum Mook Shui Phor Tu, instead of something else.

actually, the sequence of the 5 phases is specific: wood (mok) --> fire (fo) --> earth (deih) --> metal (gam) --> water (seuih) (and back to wood) ; this is the creation / facilitation / nurturing cycle; the destruction / inhibition cycle is wood --> earth --> water --> fire --> metal (and back to wood);

the mythological creatures that are attributed to each phase are:
azure dragon - wood (liver);
vermillion sparrow (similar to a phoenix) - fire (heart);
yellow dragon - earth (spleen);
white tiger - metal (lungs);
black tortoise - water (kidney);

based on that, a proposed correspondance of the Five Animals typically seen in southern family forms could be:
dragon - wood (liver);
crane - fire (heart);
leopard - earth (spleen);
tiger - metal (lungs);
snake - water (kidney);

obviously it doesn't quite correspond vis a vis the crane, leopard and snake, so I am not 100% sure - I mean crane to sparrow I can see, the snake could be a water snake; leopard, that's a bit of a stretch perhaps; I need to consult the oracle...

finally, why start with wood phase in particular? wood represents new life, springtime (an azure / green dragon is a young dragon); kidneys represent winter, darkness, the north (sometimes called Dark Warrior as opposed to black tortoise); so in fact the order of the sequence is important as well - there are other systems that will start with different elements for different reasons: for example, in the taiji form I practice we begin with lung / metal, and proceed through the sequence from there

[NGKSMM]

There is no particular reason for their preferred order, except the particular sequence of names sound good, making them poetic and easy to remember.

It is the season reason for the way we remember the sequence of the Five Elements in Chinese philosophy. Gum Mook Shui Phor Tu, instead of something else.
I agree with you on both. Sometimes is ok to say the phrase / words in different order, most of the time it sounds awkward. I think Hung Ga put Phor before Shui, still sound good; but reverse yin yan to yan yin is not. In your opinion, does one knowing this intellectual/philosophical/clinical knowledge helps or necessarily in CLF or any kf training in general. I came across one of the CLF stance “Gee Ng Ma”(1st pix) and it has to do with the Chinese 24 cardinal direction (2nd pix). What do you think of all that for just one stance?
Sorry taking the subject off the thread title.