My thoughts on chi sao

[travelsbyknight]

To me, chi sao should be about control. You control the other person's limbs so that you have 100% chance of striking. This involves a trap. This means...NO RANDOM PANSY SHOTS WITHOUT A STRIKE unless the other person's trap isn't sufficient enough to keep your arms from striking.

Ok: So basically I think chi sao is all about trapping. It's not about how many hits you get but how many hits you get AND how many you neutralize through trapping.

I don't care if it's wing chun or southern mantis or whatever.

I had the displeasure of watching people attempt to chi sao at the 2003 Wong Fei Hung tournament. They were pushing each other off the platform and wrestling most of the time. One of the sifus even tried to explain trapping to them...but to no avail.

Here's my question. Chi sao is a game with rules. But when someone stronger breaks those rules and starts wrestling with you, the game becomes crap. So if a stronger person starts wrestling with you, and you can't get around that, is it your lack of skill or because he's breaking the rules that screws up chi sao?

[yuanfen]

Chi Sao is not just about trapping limbs. You were closer IMO in your first statement-control- control yourself and try to control your opponent.

I am not a fan of chi sao tournaments-lots of sloppy work in some of the one's that I have seen.

[travelsbyknight]

Here's my definition of a trap. Either I have both of your arms trapped with my one arm leaving my other hand to strike, or I have both of my arms on the outside gate of one of your arms, which neutralizes your other arm. Hmm, I hope that's clear. How else would you control an opponent if not through a trap? Control also involves footwork and having the right angle and moving forward.

[JAFO]

There are some schools where the primary Chi-Sao method demonstrated is to lock up on the center and (try to) drive through. I see photos of them pushing each other across the room, "in stucture". After a certain point it becomes about who is bigger and heavier rather than who has technique. Real cave-man, Shoto-Kan type stuff, IMO.

I could tell you guys a story about that, but it involves someone who's a contributor on this board and I'm afraid you guys would figure it out. Suffice it to say they (supposedly) don't believe a fak or a geng to the neck, of which they took about 50, means anything. They did apparently get the point when their throat was grabbed instead. Go figure.

With them expending that much forward energy, it's hard to miss. That is, unless you jump the gun and either try to stick or else start chasing hands. Then it turns into back-yard wrestling.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by travelsbyknight
To me, chi sao should be about control. You control the other person's limbs so that you have 100% chance of striking. This involves a trap. This means...NO RANDOM PANSY SHOTS WITHOUT A STRIKE unless the other person's trap isn't sufficient enough to keep your arms from striking.
Wing Chun doesn't try to control the other, but it appears that way. It's about self-control, but is all offensive, breaking the opponent down and striking when he's helpless.

Chi sao to the extent it leads to best practice for defense and offense, develops this. Obviously, chi cao takes a lot of practice in which partners give and take. I agree it isn't necessarily about who hits who. In fact, if the opening is there and one knows it, it isn't necessary to hit your partner; it's fine to just continue practicing by letting the moment pass and resetting your relative positions.

In the end, we benefit by advancing our partners' skills as training with skilled partners improves our own skills. So be generous. One should beware of taking advantage of one's own superiority in fighting skill as the beginner soon learns, some better than others, and ultimately the lack of discipline/compassion within a school will come back to haunt one.

Regards,

[PaulH]

In our own forum, My Sihing Greg Leblanc graciously provided us the original article before it got edited a bit by the mag. publisher. I will post various parts of it here for your perusal's pleasure:

---------------------------------------------------------

"Qi sao is the bridge in Wing Chun training from learning concepts and techniques, to putting them into practice and then ultimately being able to fight with them. It provides a platform from which the practitioner can safely develop his/her abilities and test the
abilities of others. In its early stages Qi Sao training is done in a
prescribed manner, usually practiced without the benefit of footwork techniques. At its most advanced levels Qi Sao becomes an exercise in the training of skills such as control and feeling, the yin and yang hands (soft/tight) and developing the ability to fight naturally. Of paramount importance in a Wing Chun student's advancement in Qi Sao training is the development of the Yin and Yang hands (yin within yang and yang within yin), the two hands being used in opposite ways for the same action. An example of this would be making one hand tight and the other soft, such as when using the hands in combination for a simultaneous attack and defense action. Other examples of yin/yang hands are using a disturb and attack combination, switching the power point emphasis, changing the opponent's correct facing combined with an attack, becoming soft/tight when facing tight/soft and being able to switch between both hands as needed."

"The highest levels of Qi Sao practice rarely involves striking, and
always focuses on the natural fighting style developed when a
practitioner has mastered the form of his/her art and now acts and re-acts in a flowing, spontaneous manner. Grandmaster Yip Man was said to never have used crossing hand techniques (i.e. striking) in Qi Sao, rather he would only control the action and movement of his opponent. Qi Sao practice is considered a kind of playing; it is definitely not a form of street fighting. Nor is Qi Sao a type of challenge fighting (beimo), Qi Sao is a friendly training match between fellow practitioners. It is said that being a good fighter does not also mean being good at Qi Sao, but if you can become proficient in both then you have a special ability indeed. Ultimately contact training in Wing Chun can be broken down into 4 separate categories, of which Qi Sao is only one part:

1. Two person technique training

2. Qi Sao (sticky hands)

3. Beimo (challenge fighting)

4. Fighting for ones life

These 4 levels categorize the main differences in how a Wing Chun practitioner views his/her contact training experience. This ranges from pre-arranged practice to a life or death situation, of course fighting for your life is not technically a training experience. But it is important to mention because the mind set is very different at each of these levels."

"The second level of Wing Chun contact training brings in the elements of wanting to make the hit (a.k.a. crossing hand) and to not be hit;
here the classic Qi Sao training takes place. Ego rears it's ugly
head and the full force of Wing Chun character development begins to
work it's magic. My teacher Sifu Gary Lam (Lam Man Hoc) always says
that everyone must go by the same road, and Qi Sao for most of us is
when the road starts getting bumpy. The most common mistake made here
is viewing this stage of training as fighting. Qi Sao should be a
little playful, trained with a generous spirit. Sifu Lam says that
you need to have a big heart to do Qi Sao effectively. At this level
the problem is not being able to hit someone, but rather can you
control and feel his or her actions instead. Sifu Lam says this
control of our opponent is the key to progressing to higher levels of
ability in Wing Chun; the techniques used advances from striking our
opponent only, to more sophisticated ways of fighting. Additionally
doing Qi sao in this fashion involves controlling the distance and
power applied in practice, if we trained with uncontrolled strikes,
Qi Sao would not last very long and dental bills would be very high.
Thus we not only strive to control our opponent's actions, but
equally important we endeavor to develop an ability to control our
own actions as well. The skilled practitioner on first contact with
his/her training partners arms can sense their strengths and
weaknesses, being able to feel their physical structure and level of
development immediately. A master of Qi Sao can predict an opponents
every move, using a highly developed ability that almost seems to
mimic a sixth sense. Qi Sao is as much a contest of cunning and a
test of intelligence, as it is a physical challenge of skill. Sifu
Lam continually emphasizes throughout the Qi Sao training experience
that without being able to control our own mind, emotions and
actions, as well as control our opponent's actions, the higher levels
of Wing Chun usage will be beyond our grasp.

The third level of contact training in Wing Chun is were things
acquire a significantly different nature, we leave the protected
world of true training and venture into less than charted lands. This
level represents an actual fight, but this fight is arranged ahead of
time and is between trained participants (Beimo or skill comparison).
Here there is a real danger of injury, people can loose teeth and get
bones broken. This is the activity that after 60 victories in beimo
made the late Wong Shun Leung (Sigung) so famous, having been given
the nickname "king of the challenge fight". It was also the real
brutality of beimo that convinced Sigung Wong to eventually stop
fighting, having accidentally blinded his final opponents left eye.
Under generally controlled conditions and among opponents who respect
one another, beimo can be the ultimate experience in testing a
practitioner's skill. This is not street fighting, but the control
that was exercised in Qi Sao training is put aside. We want to win
against, but not seriously injure our honored opponent. Some of
Sigung Wong's life long friends were former beimo opponents, having
gained mutual respect and admiration for one another through the
experience.

The last level of contact training is not really training at all,
unless of course you happen to be a professional soldier. This level
is mentioned only because in each of the three above categories the
attitude was different; here the experience gained from hard training
is summoned in a cruel totality. In the first level we had an open,
receptive approach; our goal was to master the basics of technique.
In the second level we ideally wanted to have a generous spirit
focused on training and development of skill; the only person you
should have been competing with was yourself. The third level can be
called a kind of free fighting tournament experience (beimo); rules
or rounds do not govern this stage of training. Beimo is an actual
fight, but the big difference is that the participants fight for the
experience of it, not to deliberately injure or maim the opponent.
Accidents can happen in this fighting environment of full power
strikes'; this is as dangerous as so-called "training" can get. The
last category of the four types of contact training is mentioned here
for the purpose of discussion only. The mind set here is appropriate
only when defending your life, for whatever reason. The practitioner
adopts a cruel, vengeful attitude. This is using Wing Chun in its
most direct and powerful way, here you will see emergency techniques
from the formerly secret Bil Jee form, designed for one thing only,
to neutralize our enemy! This is life or death, kill or be killed.
Here words like butcher and destroy come to mind, this is the tooth
and nail of human nature, honed to a fine edge through years of
training. This kind of application is probably most like the original
intentions for Wing Chun usage, that being for revolution, revenge
and assassination. As members of a good and civil society, and
dedicating to fostering the same, these kinds of techniques are not
emphasized in normal training and are taught only to advanced
students.

Qi Sao as it is practiced in Sifu Lam's school provides an
opportunity to develop, enhance and as he calls it "upgrade" our
abilities. One of the most profound examples of this, and possibly
the highest ideal trained for in an entire career of practice, is the
essence of the Wing Chun song " loi lou hoi sung, lat sao chay chun".
Roughly translated this refers to the ultimate accomplishment in the
Wing Chun fighting style; to embrace/hold what comes, escort/send off
what leaves and when contact is lost attack to the center/weak point
immediately. This lofty skill can only be developed under pressure,
in the crucible of Qi Sao. Being able to apply it at will, going with
and guiding your opponent, fighting in the natural style of an expert
who has transcended the form of his art, this is the highest
accomplishment realized in action. Here at this level there is no
Wing Chun, you are Wing Chun. You fight without thought for correct
or incorrect technique; your response is automatic and instinctive.
Exhibiting an icy calm and a seamless combination of key attributes
(called jun/accuracy, wan/stability, fai/speed and geng/power) that
comes from years of experience, skills are demonstrated that are the
stuff of legends. This was the legacy left by the founders of Wing
Chun Kung Fu, nothing less than true martial arts mastery. The road
to finding that legacy begins with Qi Sao, the soul of Wing Chun."

[AndrewS]

Travelsbyknight,

Chi sao is not a fight. It's a freakin' drill. It's there to develop certain skills useful for fighting. Different people and lines view different skills as important for fighting, and this may cause variations in the 'rules' of chi sao. Most often people who do chi sao have no idea how to fight and are doing the drill for whatever internal victory traditions have been handed down by their line.

All this being said- 'trapping' is a very small portion of fighting, an incidental occurance at best, and is quite low on my training priorities in chi sao.

Andrew

[Ultimatewingchun]

AndrewS said:

"Chi sao is not a fight. It's a freakin' drill. It's there to develop certain skills for fighting..."

That's exactly right.

Chi sao "competitions" are therefore a complete waste of time.

[anerlich]

At my academy, chi sao includes clinching, pummelling, trapping, striking, arm drags, duckunders, takedowns, throws. Or it can just be the more commonly seen energy drill with bridges and strikes. What "rules" there are depend on prior agreement between the participants, and these are more the parameters of a drill, rather than a competition where movements are "fair" or "unfair".

If this offends anybody, IMO it's their problem.

As Victor and Andrew said, it's a drill.

IMO chi sao competitions are for people who are afraid of real sportfighting and thus have to resort to a game where they have no real risk of getting hit hard and their makeup and illusions smudged (no offence meant to female or cross-dressing forum members).

[anerlich]

So if a stronger person starts wrestling with you, and you can't get around that, is it your lack of skill

Yes.

[Gangsterfist]

Chi sao, to me is more about building up a sense of whats happening. Its a tool that helps develope certain skills that can be useful when using a trapping close range style of martial arts. Now, I won't go into it in great detail, that should be done by your sifu. Also, I think one of the major problems with kung fu today is how everyone over analyzes everything and breaks it down into this complicated science. Which is kind of going against part of the design of wing chun itself. WCK was designed to be simple, yet complex. Simple to learn, and once you reach a certain level you actually realize the complexity of it all. I recently read like a 20 page article on the wing chun "straight punch" - it was ridiculus.

It is about control. Controlling your opponet and more importantly controlling yourself. Eventually you will learn that getting trapped is not the end, its just a different scenario you have to get out of. Then adding in footwork and movement you have dynamics. This should teach you to feel out situations because no two chi saos will be the same, just like no two fights will be the same.

[kj]

Originally posted by PaulH
In our own forum, My Sihing Greg Leblanc graciously provided us the original article <snip

Thanks for sharing Greg's excellently written essay.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[kj]

Originally posted by anerlich
IMO chi sao competitions are for people who are afraid of real sportfighting and thus have to resort to a game where they have no real risk of getting hit hard and their makeup and illusions smudged (no offence meant to female or cross-dressing forum members).

Is it possible there is a slight over-generalization embedded in there somehwere? ;)

Regards,
- kj

[Ultimatewingchun]

Kathy Jo:

I'm only guessing now...but maybe Andrew was just so impressed with your make-up the last time he saw you...assuming that he has ever seen you...

that he just dreads the thought of anyone ever messing it up during chi sao competition.

[PaulH]

Kathy,

Coming from you, it is quite a compliment to Greg. I'll let him know. Thanks!

Regards,
PH

[kj]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Kathy Jo:

I'm only guessing now...but maybe Andrew was just so impressed with your make-up the last time he saw you...assuming that he has ever seen you...

that he just dreads the thought of anyone ever messing it up during chi sao competition.

LOL - Yeah, that's probably it. :D
- kj

[Ultimatewingchun]

Just reread the article by Greg LeBlanc that PaulH quoted...

It's very good. But I want to add something: At the end of it the statement is made that chi sao is "the soul of Wing Chun" - and I agree that it is.

But what chi sao brings to the OVERALL FIGHTING TABLE...and therefore - what Wing Chun brings...

is a unique and very efficient method of fighting at close LIMB contact range that centers almost exclusively on dealing with STRIKING, PUSHING, AND PULLING energies - both in attack and defense...

Which is why using a GRABBING...OR WRESTLING...type energy is so frowned upon during chi sao in most Wing Chun circles.

Though the style does have SOME ways of dealing with these other types of energies and techniques (ie.- some methods of grabbing - like lop sao...and some methods of breaking free once one has been grabbed are also taught in Wing Chun)...

Nonetheless, the fact still remains that the MAJOR emphasis in Wing Chun is NOT on these types of attacks (or defending against such attacks)...

WING CHUN...as beautiful, as ingenious, and as efficient as it is...

does have it's limitations.

It's a beautiful and magnificient SOUL...in a SEA OF MANY GREAT SOULS.

[chisauking]

Greg Leblanc is obviously an experienced wing chun practitioner. People who say chisau is merely a drill are very, very low level practitioners with very limited -- if at all -- exposure to 'live' chisau.

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by travelsbyknight

Here's my question. Chi sao is a game with rules. But when someone stronger breaks those rules and starts wrestling with you, the game becomes crap. So if a stronger person starts wrestling with you, and you can't get around that, is it your lack of skill or because he's breaking the rules that screws up chi sao?

I recently met an aquaintence of a friend of mine. He knew I trained martial arts and was asking me about it. He then was telling me his experiences with MA. He told me he took a taiji course at his college for 2 semesters (1 year). The instructor was a 5'5" 120lb 60 year old chinese man. I can't say what family of taiji it was, nor the intstructors name, because this guy could not remember exactly. Now he was teaching a bunch of college kids taiji in the U.S. He was telling me how some of these kids were over 6ft tall and over 200lbs and obviously stronger than this old man. When playing push hands these bigger college kids would always try to over power the old man. It never worked, he would always ward them off or redirect them so he was in control. Push hands and chi sao are different, but some similar things and energies come into play. I guess the answer is the taiji instructor did not play their game. When they tried to overpower and wrestle him, he just changed energies and wouldn't let that happen.

I just thought this story may have a good point for this thread :D

[S.Teebas]

Originally posted by chisauking:

....exposure to 'live' chisau.

What do you mean by 'live' chi-sau?

[anerlich]

People who say chisau is merely a drill are very, very low level practitioners with very limited -- if at all -- exposure to 'live' chisau.

Well, that's one opinion.

I think Gary Lam is actually saying chi sao is what I call a drill (or if you don't like that word, call it a "training method" as he did). From what I read, it's still as drill and not a fight according to Messrs Lam and LeBlanc, who both make a good deal of sense, unlike your rather uncharitable post. chisauking, the republic is coming.

Drills need not be closed or shallow. There need be no "merely" about them. But they are not fights, nor is chi sao.

Victor, I've never met KJ, but the mental picture I have requires no makeup. This particular lily requires no gilding :-)

[yuanfen]

Correct Anerlich-

KJ needs no makeup!

FWIW- a fight is a fight is a fight-

the rest including the cage, the mat, the ring, sparring, tui shou, chi sao are all imo simulations with varying protocols... opinions vary on their relevance for learning self defense..

[Ernie]

anerlich,
[ think Gary Lam is actually saying chi sao is what I call a drill (or if you don't like that word, call it a "training method" as he did). From what I read, it's still as drill and not a fight according to Messrs Lam and LeBlanc, who both make a good deal of sense, ]]


i'll chime in a bit , gary teaches chi sau as a progressive experience , first it's simple hand/leg/body co ordiantion, understanding the reasons the shapes exisit and the refernce points they occupy , how to link them and flow .

then after that the focus shifts to feeling and control you now have the tools , so you must understand what these tools are telling you

lastly you apply stradagy and refinment of your own physical and emotional position .

so first we are concerned about what we can do to the other guy but later we are more concerned with our own position , to allways seek our best position and not worry so much about what he is trying to make me do.

and your right in no way is this to be confused with a fight .

developing attributes not that complicated , when one is developing one does not try and destroy

[PaulH]

You know, Ernie, the most frustrating thing for me to learn so far is the listening skill of the feeling and control part that you mention. Hardest lesson to accept: L I S T E N = S I L E N T. Thanks for the good reminder!

[JAFO]

With respect to what happens when the rules applicable to a drill, an exercise, a game, a match or whatever name we're using for the interaction are broken, there are only three options.

The person obeying the rules can allow themselves to be abused, or they can call the cheating for what it is and quit, or they can agree that the rules are flexible enough to change and proceed to choose how they are going to break them.

Our philosophy towards Chi Sao is that it is more a training platform than a suitable competitive platform because it requires a certain level of trust. We agree to meet up with each other, we agree to the amount of contact that we will permit, we agree to the types of strikes that are and aren't in play, and we agree to the purpose of that interaction. When we're training on a technique or an attribute, having that stable relationship allows us to experiment and make mistakes. When it's competitive, it must regress to the tried and true, which is why competitive Chi Sao often seems very crude when the skill levels are low or moderate.

If one player deliberately and chronically breaks the agreement, they basically forfeit the right to complain about the other player's response. If that includes ratcheting up the contact, so be it. It was their choice to change the terms of the agreement and break the trust. Ironically, a cheater will lose all composure when the tables are turned and they find that what they're asking for does indeed have a price.

[kj]

Good essay and summary, JAFO.
- kj

[Savi]

Originally posted by travelsbyknight
To me, chi sao should be about control. You control the other person's limbs so that you have 100% chance of striking. This involves a trap...

Ok: So basically I think chi sao is all about trapping. It's not about how many hits you get but how many hits you get AND how many you neutralize through trapping...

Here's my question. Chi sao is a game with rules. But when someone stronger breaks those rules and starts wrestling with you, the game becomes crap. So if a stronger person starts wrestling with you, and you can't get around that, is it your lack of skill or because he's breaking the rules that screws up chi sao?From my experience in tournaments, very few people play by the "rules". Some don't even read them. Most people just forget themselves. Not everyone though...
Originally posted by anerlich
IMO chi sao competitions are for people who are afraid of real sportfighting and thus have to resort to a game where they have no real risk of getting hit hard... In a way, I'd say that's true, because some people adhere to the sportsmanship of the tournament environment. Other people are in it only to deliver pain and could care less about sports/showmanship. But I do not believe Chi Sau Tournaments to exist soley for the purpose of those who fear pain. Some people enter those tournaments and hit hard regardless of the rules.
Originally posted by AndrewS
Chi sao is not a fight. It's a freakin' drill. It's there to develop certain skills useful for fighting. Different people and lines view different skills as important for fighting, and this may cause variations in the 'rules' of chi sao. Most often people who do chi sao have no idea how to fight and are doing the drill for whatever internal victory traditions have been handed down by their line.

All this being said- 'trapping' is a very small portion of fighting, an incidental occurance at best, and is quite low on my training priorities in chi sao.

Andrew All these comments tell me that we are all speaking about different areas within martial arts, rather than one particular environment. I think some people only see it as a classroom drill (instructional). Others see it from competition/sporting events (competitive). Some, I think, have touched slightly on its relationship to real combat. After reading the thread, I think people are talking on different levels, even though it's all part of the same picture.

Q1. If Chi Sau is only a drill, how can it be the "soul/heart of Wing Chun"?

Q2. If Chi Sau is a game, how can it be the "soul/heart of Wing Chun"?

Q3. If Chi Sau is not about fighting, what business does it have in the Wing Chun system?

Based on that logic, #1 & 2 doesn't make sense to me. I think someone needs to ask, "Is Wing Chun about fighting or not?" If not, then I can see the first two questions as logical.

==============

I see that all combative training methods should end up as a reflection of realistic application. We are learning how to fight, based on economy of motion and superior energetics, yes? What I have learned from my training:

Drilling:(instructional and self-exploration)
Step one: build the specific body mechanics (motor skills) in relation to the exercise being learned.

Study and laboratory:(instructional and self-exploration)
Step two: enhance and refine the body/mind connection with technical knowledge of the mechanics at hand with the corresponding principles and concepts. Energetics are properly guided and developed as well. Test structural integrity and striking power against stationary hitting pads. Test structural integrity and energetics against a skilled partner.

Challenge:(real-time testing phase)
Step three: test structural awareness, reactional speed and recovery skill through real time challenges against a live aggressor in accordance to the skill being developed. Here, through experience and self-discovery is "my" Chi Sau understood in terms of proper time and space, function and purpose.

For me, Chi Sau begins as a drill/game. That should be true for all of our technique training. I feel it should not, however, stay that way.

I see Chi Sau as a last (not the first) resort of defense against a grapple attack or nose-to-nose confrontation. Head on engagements by human nature tend to lead into grabbing and/or trading hits. If you are not nose-to-nose with the attacker, I do not think the sophistication of Chi Sau is remotely neccesary.

From what I have learned,
1. Structural preservation and energy application: Chi Sau (coupled with footwork tactics) is the systematic use of wrist contact and control for close-range fighting, requiring highly sophisticated energetics in accordance with the same principles and concepts that guide body structure.

2. Gate theories: It is designed to keep an opponent from bypassing the inside line of defense (Wu Sau distance), should preliminary defenses fail.

3. Counter-measures: Chi Sau allows one to prevent the attacker from taking you into groundfighting, by use of bridge control and manipulation in all directions. Should one lose that control from the bridge, grappling is the only option left (provided the attacker has forward intent) due to the proximity of range.

WRT competition, Chi Sau tournaments are designed to test your ability to Chi Sau for prolonged amounts of time. It is not about fighting. If you want another option to test your Chi Sau skill in "simulated fighting" (as close to real fighting, but still bounded by rules), go to the full contact fighting section and test it.

This has been my experience in Chi Sau, and obviously what is true for me might not be true for someone else.

[Ultimatewingchun]

This was a very good post by Savi on chi sao, and I would like to comment on it - since it could easily have been posted on the Connecting Wing Chun w/grappling thread...

First, to pick up on some of his points:

He wrote...If chi sao is only a game or a drill...and if chi sao is not about fighting - why is it in the wing chun system? How could it be the heart/soul of wing chun if these other things are true ?

He then goes on to give a good summary of the progressive training goals of chi sao and calls it a last resort against grappling - due to its wrist control and footwork as a control for close-range fighting..."If control of the bridge is lost...grappling is the only option left." (Because of the proximity).

All of this is true...

BUT THE POTENTIAL PROBLEM that chi sao presents within the wing chun community, as I see it - and I believe this is the thinking behind my post, and AndrewS's post, and Anerlich's post...

Is the fact that TOO MUCH chi sao and not enough sparring that begins from non-contact range GIVES A DISTORTED PICTURE to the mind of the wing chun student in terms of how to translate what is learned in chi sao...

INTO other types of FIGHTING situations.

Secondly - and this is where I part company with Savi (and many other people, I'm sure)...IMO...In certain situations I DO SEE chi sao as a last resort to grappling - because I don't want to grapple IN THIS PARTICULAR SITUATION (ie. - rough terrain...his friends are around, etc.)....

But in other instances I MIGHT WANT TO GRAPPLE because none of the downside (as I just explained) is present AND I SEE THE OPPORTUNITY TO WIN THE FIGHT QUICKER

[Ultimatewingchun]

....I SEE THE OPPORTUNITY TO WIN THE FIGHT QUICKER than if i were to continue to try and use more conventional wing chun strategies and techniques.

[AndrewS]

Hey Savi,

if chi sao isn't a competetion or form of fighting, 'drill' or 'training environment' are pretty good words for it.

Chi sao in my line covers the whole gamut from very soft single arm palm/jum/punch/bong, to broken contact, hooks, plum, throwing, groundwork, elbows, etc., to various biomechanical reducto ad absurdums in softness and pressure.

It's still just a drill- set the parameters to use it to teach a lesson.

Andrew

[Ernie]

chi sau completion
what's next slt competitions ?
standing meditation competitions ?
point sparring ?
wing chun cookie cutter karate systems all aboard !!!!!

I thought wing chun was for street fighting , when did it become a Olympic sporting event [ this idea was actually proposed at the friendship seminar from what I heard ]

there is no such thing as competitions in a street fight the ability to adapt and recover are paramount ,
[ THERE IS NO ADAPTABILITY WHEN TO WING CHUN GUYS FACE EACH OTHER YOU ARE BOTH DING THE SAME THING AND KNOW IT ]

let the illusion go

step out of the lab and play with the big boys in the real world .
sorry for coming off strong but the idea of a chi sau competition make me want to vomit it perpetuates a lie and prepares people to get killed

o.k. i feel better now :D

[PaulH]

You want a Coke, Ernie? Ha! Ha! Chi Sau is the pencil sharpener, It sharpens your sleepy head to write meaningful doodles on the blank faces of your enemies.

Regards,
PH

[Gangsterfist]

This reminds me of a little inside joke me and my friends had going on. We were just starting to learn chin na, and learned a lot of techniques when someone grabs your wrist. We would joke about how if you were about to get in a fight, and you challenged the guy to grab your wrist just so you could apply the little knowledge you knew and use it to your advantage.

Competition fighting and real fighting will always be completely different. Yesterday at kung fu class we were doing some ground fighting drills where you slipped and fell, or your opponet did and grabbed you and took you down with you. Then we started sparring with the same situation. I can tell you chi sao helped me on the ground. I felt my partner try to mount me when I fell on my side, so I shrimped and pok'd his shoulder making him post on one arm and then using that posted arm against him to gain leverage on the ground. I did this because I felt him going for the mount immediately. I could not see him that well because how we fell down, and I ended up landing on my side. However, since we fell on top of one another I felt his movements and was able to act upon them and get out the situation.

Chi sao is not a combat drill, but its a tool to sharpen your combat sense so to speak. No matter what the technique may be, trapping, controlling, attacking, defending, grappling, ground fighting etc, chi sao is there to help you.

Chi sao is so dynamic as well. Just like the fact that you will never experience the same fight twice, you will never experience the same chi sao twice. This is where I don't see the reason for chi sao competition. I don't see how one could put a system and set of rules on something so dynamic, but then again I have not really witness much chi sao competition. The dynamics of it teach you how to act and react in certain situations.

This is just some of my ideas about chi sao, and some have them changed recently. I am also sure they will probably change again down the road. See how dynamic it is....

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Step out of the lab and play with the big boys in the real world"...

Ernie...You crack me up, man...I swear !!!

Got to look you up someday and workout together - and would love to see AndrewS and Dhira there as well.

Later,

Victor

[anerlich]

This reminds me of a little inside joke me and my friends had going on. We were just starting to learn chin na, and learned a lot of techniques when someone grabs your wrist. We would joke about how if you were about to get in a fight, and you challenged the guy to grab your wrist just so you could apply the little knowledge you knew and use it to your advantage.

One of his 5th Dan students showed me a Patrick McCarthy (8th Dan (I think), recent translator of the Bubishi) video of his Bunkai. PM asked a rhetorical question about why there are so many wrist grab counters in the forms; his answer, "a wrist grab just about always happens after you've grabbed the guy's throat or testicles!"

Interesting tape and guy. He has some awesome weapons skills.

[Ernie]

victor
glad to spread the humor:)

hopefully life will let us hang out some time i just had a workout with dhira and andrew yesterday as a matter of fact

[Savi]

Originally posted by Ernie
let the illusion go

step out of the lab and play with the big boys in the real world .
sorry for coming off strong but the idea of a chi sau competition make me want to vomit it perpetuates a lie and prepares people to get killed

o.k. i feel better now :D Glad you feel better Ernie. Unfortunately for your weak-stomach ;), there are Chi Sau competitions out there... no different than another version of a friendship seminar - just a different environment. OTOH, all Wing Chun training and applications should be intended to lead you out of the "lab" environment and into real-world applications. That should be true for all combat styles, though; not just WC.

If your Sifu never gets you there, you are left to fend for yourself. If your Sifu can show you Chi Sau in relation to real combat perspective, the better for you. I too, feel that many people do not make it to "real-world" skill testing, only classroom study. Keep in mind, the "lab" stage is just another stage in everyone's martial journey, and should not be the end of that journey IMO.

BTW, there are also "little boys" in the real world who think they are "big boys" and tough guys. I prefer to keep a more open mind on things (more than one side to anything, ya?).

We can only believe that which we can see. I'm not here to convince anybody, just share my thoughts and experiences.

[Ernie]

no worries savi
you know i just put it out raw and un cut
but you touched on something very true about if your sifu can gude you to the connection of real combat

i have always felt that if who ever you are learning from in ''general'' should have real experience , if your , mine , anyones sifu has not actually fought and quite a bit there will be much room for b.s. and un tested concepts .

when you fight certian realities become evedent and alot of so so stuff doesn't fly . you start to cut out the fat and train on the right aspects in respect to combative effecientcy

each generation that passes with out some for of honest testing creates a new watered down generation of technitions and more and more room for b.s. and illusions

just my 2 cents

[Gangsterfist]

I agree a good sifu is hard to find. I have trained with some bad ones and some good ones. I am very lucky to have the sifu I do now. I think I am learning at a pretty fast rate with my current sifu compared to past martial arts instructors.

I remember the first time sparring kinda hard with my sifu. He was obviously dumbing himself down to my level, even I could tell that. In the end I surprised him with a quick punch that made contact to his jaw, right when he felt it he went low and punched me in the groin. My punch just grazed his jaw. He did it out of reflex when he felt the hit. That was a while ago, and at that point I knew he was a good teacher and I had finally found a good place to train. I was in pain, but it was still good to know he wasn't holding back on me and that I was learning real life situation stuff. Now I guard my groin better in combat you could say.

If you think you are having problems getting the concepts or techniques from chi sao, why not try to go back to single hand chi sao and review what you think you are doing wrong (or what you are doing right, or both)?

Everytime I get stuck I get told go back to the SLT, go back to don chi sao, go back to basic triangle foot work. A lot to times you can find the answer right there.

Taking a punch is something that is not really taught and I think its important. Ask one of your sihings you punch you in the face sometime see if you can take it. It may be kind of harsh training method but if you can't take one punch then you probably won't win any real fight.

[anerlich]

Taking a punch is something that is not really taught and I think its important.

Speak for yourself about it not being taught - I agree it is important. Check out RMA-style "shock absorption" sometime. If you spar with contact you are learning to take punches, but there are less hit and miss methods to learn to deal with impact, which me and my training buds practise regularly.


Other people are in it only to deliver pain and could care less about sports/showmanship. But I do not believe Chi Sau Tournaments to exist soley for the purpose of those who fear pain. Some people enter those tournaments and hit hard regardless of the rules.

If that's so, then it's another deserved nail in the coffin of the notion of WC being "too deadly to spar with", unless the people hit are being carted off to hospital.

OTOH, the "rules" or judges may feed such an attitude. One of my teachers was one of the first gwailo to take up TCMA in Australia, after gaining a Nidan in Goju Ryu Karate. His WC techniques were not given points in Karate point contests as the judges would say he had "no power" - he had to "accidentally" whack a couple of guys to make his point.

He also used to do breaking demonstrations, using his "no-power" non-point-scoring backfist to break stacks of eight untreated roof tiles.

Not much "contact karate" around in those days, a lot of those guys used to use the "too deadly" reasoning (if "reasoning" is the right word) as well.