SO Much for Groundfighting a TRUE story...

[PT-Kali]

Was in Dallas last Saturday in Deep Ellum (at a club called The Bone) listening to a pretty good DJ, chillin' with my girl, sipping some Rum and Coke when several people began to rush outside. Of course if you've been to many bars/clubs, you usually know what that means...

I decided to go check it out, and voilla, a fight. This really big dude was hammering away on this one guy when they slipped and fell. No nice takedown or anything like that, but there they were on the ground. Now I'm not saying that the guy on top knew he was in a "mounted" position (but maybe he had seen a UFC), but basically he was mounted on this guy and raining down punches, the little guy was doing his best to cover his head, etc.

Out of the blue some guy rushed in from the side and kicked the big guy right in the ribs, and in a split second, ANOTHER guy kicked him in the ear (side of the head). That pretty much stopped the ground and pound, and a couple of more guys kicked the big guy a few times before some people (bouncers maybe?) pulled the big guy up and everyone went their own ways...

My question is this: how great IS BJJ and wrestling in a situation like this? Don't get me wrong, I've spent some time on the mat myself, but it made me seriously think about it. You always hear non-grapplers argue about what would happen if there were more than one person, but until you actually SEE something like this it really sets in...what makes it worse is the guys that kicked the big guy mounted wasn't even the smaller guy's friends, just some guys wanting to practice their punts I guess???

Just thought I'd share this with the rest of the board.

[Christopher M]

Good point. In a situation like that, you're much better off having no idea what to do on the ground.

[PHILBERT]

Christopher, how so? If you were the guy on bottom and got mounted actidentally, and no one came to your rescue, wouldn't you want to have an idea of what to do?

[SevenStar]

turn on your sarcasmometer, dude.

[WanderingMonk]

Obviously, Chris M is joking.

IMO, you'll need some ground knowledge because everybody seem to be imitating ufc guys these days.

But, if you end up using it, you are not going to be mobile. so, use it a last resort if you get taken down. but, stay on your feet if you can help it, so you can have the option of running away.

[SevenStar]

he kept the fight on the ground and wasn't prepared for what could (and did) happen. Like we are always saying, you use grappling knowledge to get you back onto your feet efficiently so that you may get out of the situation. The slip and fall thing is common among non trained fighters. Clinch work would have been useful there, and may have kept hom on his feet. after going to the ground, the idea should have been to do what he had to do in order to get back up as quickly as possible, not to sit there and GnP.


grappling has its uses in a situation like that. As stated, it will enable you to be able to get up quickly and efficiently. Also, if you have someone in your guard, you can use them as a shield between you and your opponents. you will still take some damage, but with the guy pulled close to you and your head tucked, you are more protected than if you were on the ground with nothing.

[PHILBERT]

Sorry there 7* :p kind of hard to see sarcasm in typing.

[rubthebuddha]

contrary to what merry may think (;)), chris is one of the smArter folks on this forum. he's not going to pop some stupid comment like that out of anything other than sarcasm.

for the record, i've asked this same question before. however, i've never heard an intelligent grappler suggest that a second attacker won't show up, or that the ground is necessarily the best place when confronted by more than one opponent. most of 'em (sevenstar, merry, etc.) already have a good upright game. they enjoy grappling, and they also see the need for a ground game in case they wind up being the smaller boyo in your situation, but don't want to wait for their buddies to help out, if those buddies are even around.

[Losttrak]

Yup Deep Ellum... a trendy petri dish of asshat bacteria.

[PHILBERT]

I've never been there, though I've been wanting to go for a while now.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by PHILBERT
I've never been there, though I've been wanting to go for a while now. You live in Dallas and have never been to Deep Ellum? I live in OKlahoma, and I've been to Deep Ellum bunches. Heck, that's where I got two of my tattoos.

[Ford Prefect]

*dangles bait*

[apoweyn]

My question is this: how great IS BJJ and wrestling in a situation like this?

Ask the guy on the bottom. I'd wager he'd have enjoyed having a better takedown defense and the ability to neutralize some of the beating he took on the ground before he was 'rescued.'

[MonkeySlap Too]

The Shuai Chiao organization I belong to has a way to trai foor this. Groundfighting is now legall in tournaments, but you only have 10 seconds to submit your opponent, or other players rush the ring and start beating on both players.

It's an interesting variant.

[truewrestler]

Lets change this story around:

Big guy punches smaller guy solid and the small guy staggers

small guy's friends sucker punches the big guy

Lesson: Pull guard and slap on an armbar and the friends won't jump in because they don't know you are ****ing up their friend

[Merryprankster]

Let's go even further.

three puppets, a midget and an ex pro football player are in a fight, the pro baller is on the ground and the puppets are on top.

Lesson: The midget is drinking your beers and laughing at you.

[truewrestler]

#1 You are gonna get me punished at work for slackin if you make me crack up like that again

#2 I finally have to ask what the story is behind your avatar

[MasterKiller]

If those puppets were muppets, that midget wouldn't be so brave.

[norther practitioner]

Yeah, are those puppets:
1. A human puppet, like some say of our current president
2. A marianette (sp?) like pinochio, who just wanted to be a real boy
3. Sock Puppet, because if that is the case, at least the persons knuckles are somewhat protected
4. A muppet, cause if thats the case, I'll put $40 on miss piggy and her pink belt

[jun_erh]

all the fighting styles are limited. wrestling has more utility than alot of them, but it still has limits. PArticularly in this scenerio, where your open to blows that require no skill and are full power

[Toby]

What if one of the puppets were Mr Socko? :eek: :eek:

[Becca]

Originally posted by jun_erh
all the fighting styles are limited. wrestling has more utility than alot of them, but it still has limits. PArticularly in this scenerio, where your open to blows that require no skill and are full power

I think it has less to do with the style and more to do with situational awareness. It sounds like big guy was focused on what he was doin' and ignorring what was going on around him.

I know a guy who got jumped by several people at a club. He did just fine for a few minutes. Then he got co(ky, focused on the best of the lot, and leterally got his ear partially bitten off. He has a rather ugly scra now. I guess they (doctors) won't stitch human bite wounds because of the high risk of infection.:(

[stimulant]

in my opinion, going to ground should always be the last optioj in a street fight (even if that is where your skill lies) as you can dont know how many friends the other person has who are ready to kick 7 shades of $hit out of you and are close by.

[apoweyn]

The grapplers here worth their salt have said time and time again that they don't advocate going to the ground in such a situation. Only that 1) it happens whether you advocate it or not and 2) you're better prepared to either avoid getting taken down or escape and get back up if you know a thing or two about groundfighting.

[red5angel]

Lesson: Pull guard and slap on an armbar and the friends won't jump in because they don't know you are ****ing up their friend

yes , nothing like tying up a guy, and yourself so his freinds get free shots at you.

[KC Elbows]

Originally posted by apoweyn
The grapplers here worth their salt have said time and time again that they don't advocate going to the ground in such a situation. Only that 1) it happens whether you advocate it or not and 2) you're better prepared to either avoid getting taken down or escape and get back up if you know a thing or two about groundfighting.

Agreed, except I'd say that takedown skills and ground skills are separate skills. One could have takedown skills without ground skills, and often do. However, if stuck going to the ground, ground skills will help more than anything else.

EDIT- in otherwords, I question the assumption that having ground skills helps prevent being taken to the ground, since take down skills don't seem to be specific to ground fighting styles.

[red5angel]

This argument always seems to revolve around groundfighting but in reality ANY martial skill be it ground fighting or using the bench the way those old shaolin monks used to do, could be helpful. The point is we train for eventualities or possibilities. ANYTHING can happen in a fight.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by KC Elbows


Agreed, except I'd say that takedown skills and ground skills are separate skills. One could have takedown skills without ground skills, and often do. However, if stuck going to the ground, ground skills will help more than anything else.

EDIT- in otherwords, I question the assumption that having ground skills helps prevent being taken to the ground, since take down skills don't seem to be specific to ground fighting styles.

Yeah, you're right. That's a good point. MP has said many times that wrestling is stronger on takedowns than BJJ is. So a groundfighter won't necessarily have a better takedown defense. And as you said, the two are separate skills.

But once you hit the ground (be it from slipping in a puddle of beer or tripped by one of the guy's mates) it pays to know how to move there. Even if it's only in order to stop being there.

[KC Elbows]

Originally posted by apoweyn


Yeah, you're right. That's a good point. MP has said many times that wrestling is stronger on takedowns than BJJ is. So a groundfighter won't necessarily have a better takedown defense. And as you said, the two are separate skills.

But once you hit the ground (be it from slipping in a puddle of beer or tripped by one of the guy's mates) it pays to know how to move there. Even if it's only in order to stop being there.

Absolutely, and that's where I'd say I'm weakest, though better than I was in the past. But I'm not bad at takedowns, and clinch range is my preferred range, which is why I find it questionable to assume that ground fighting styles have a corner of the market on takedowns- anyone who spends time in the clinch must, at some point, come up with the means to prevent being taken down, provided they aren't operating under rules that prevent take downs.

[Gangsterfist]

Just to add a few points to the conversation...

I know someone who does BJJ. He has been doing it for 7 or maybe 8 years now. I train wing chun and taiji so obviously we get along great. I saw him fight a guy once, and it didn't go to the ground. Some guy rushed in with a punch and while standing the BJJ practioners slammed the guy on the ground, fight over.

See the thing is grappling arts such as BJJ have gotten smarter. They train stand up fighting now. In the begining some could say the training method was take the hits, rush in, take down, grapple, win; was the theory behind grappling to ground fighting. Now, fighting the guy who rushes in and takes the hits does not sound too fun to me. Then I watched this thing on TV a while back ago that had some gracie guy (or a guy who trained with the gracies) on there talking about his style of martial arts. They were showing a lot of stand up fighting techniques. They realize going to the ground with multiple attackers is asking for a hostpital bill or perhaps they want to see how well their HMO really works. We all know TV does not lie either.

So to answer your question the guy who was on the mount did not realize that he was in a very defenseless position. Even though they slipped and seemed to be thrown in that situation he perhaps should have stood back up.

Grappling can be effective against multiple opponets, just don't take it to the ground/