The Good Grappler vs. the Real Kung Fu Master

[Water Dragon]

Who would win a fight between these two invincible warriors, and why?

[Ford Prefect]

Two words: CHI BLAST

[Merryprankster]

Trick question. They might be the same person.

[Judge Pen]

Assuming a Good ground fighter isn't of equal skill to a "Real" kung fu Master, then the Master should win because his footwork and counters should be good enough to avoid the takedown. If they were of equal skill. . . . then I don't know.

MP's right. There's no reason they can't be the same person.

[Ralphie]

Well, since the Chinese figured out a long time ago that slippery silk pajamas are the ultimate anti-grappling outfit, the grappler would have no chance. However, if the grappler has entered into his 3rd month of high school wrestling, then I may rethink my position.

[truewrestler]

For the most part we generally know what "good grappler" means. For this discussion I'll say that means the person is average at a number of ranges... takedown, throws, position, submission.

What is a Real Kung Fu Master? I don't think any mention of one has ever been posted on here. Would that be a Shaolin Monk?

I'll go with the good grappler to defeat the "whatever the hell a Real Kung Fu Master is" guy. :D

[Judge Pen]

Well, my point is a master of _____ style should be better than someone who is merely good at _______ style (no matter what the art). If a good grappler can beat a kung fu master, then the guy isn't a real master. :D

[PT-Kali]

Depends on if the kung fu master has any friends around, or is it a "controlled" environment like the UFC (read UNREALISTIC).

[Merryprankster]

Depends on if the kung fu master has any friends around, or is it a "controlled" environment like the UFC (read UNREALISTIC).

OOOoooo goody! Another hater! How Original!!

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
Well, my point is a master of _____ style should be better than someone who is merely good at _______ style (no matter what the art). If a good grappler can beat a kung fu master, then the guy isn't a real master. :D Anyone can be beaten, even a "master." Even Joe Montana threw a few intereceptions every year, and not everyone who caught one of those balls was a better player than him. A real master is someone who will win more often than not, not someone who can't be beaten.

[Merryprankster]

Anyone can be beaten, even a "master." Even Joe Montana threw a few intereceptions every year, and not everyone who caught one of those balls was a better player than him. A real master is someone who will win more often than not, not someone who can't be beaten.

Bull****! They were ALL better than Montana!!!

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Merryprankster


Bull****! They were ALL better than Montana!!! I was going to use Otto Graham as the example, but I doubt anyone outside of Ohio would have gotten the reference.

[Royal Dragon]

WD,
First I was only going to give you a 2.2, but seeing as you actually got some responses, I have decided to re-score you at a 4.875






















:D

[truewrestler]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
Well, my point is a master of _____ style should be better than someone who is merely good at _______ style (no matter what the art). If a good grappler can beat a kung fu master, then the guy isn't a real master. :D Now that there is some indisputably conclusive circular logic :p

[MonkeySlap Too]

Considering that the 'real' kung fu master was a chef, not a Wu Shu exponent, the good grappler.

Considering that the 'real' kung fu master fights with a 50lb broadsword and not empty handed - the RKF guy.

Or it depends on a great many factors...what kind of grappling? How aware of each others tactics? Who just ate a big burrito? Who's wife is supportive? Who's is a nag? They fighting with weapons? They oiling up or wearing silk pajamas and on and on and on...

Is it crossing hands or a deul? What kind of 'kung fu'?


If you fight, you know there are very few absolutes.

[Water Dragon]

I would just like to thank everyone who ruined this thread by making a serious responce.

merryprankster posts 3 replys and not one mention of Ap in a dress? What is this world coming to?

[rubthebuddha]

ap has photos of merry in a thong and is blackmailing him right now. don't expect too many comments about ap in a dress for some time.

mstoo's right on the variables. my real answer? whichever one got the timing right on their first solid attack.

my other answer? masterkiller by triangle at 2:13.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by rubthebuddha
my other answer? masterkiller by triangle at 2:13. Technically, the winning technique was a Franken, but I'll let you get by this one time.

[Musicalkatachmp]

I would say that the good grappler has a much better chance of beating the kung fu master than I have of beating Royce Gracie...

Takedown defense isn't really a big part of the curriculum at my school (at least up to black belt) and neither is groundwork...so if I HAD to guess what would happen I would say the kung fu master will end up on his back like a fish out of water...

but then again if we are talking REAL MASTER, not just some guy that takes peoples money and @$$ kissed his way to a 10-degree black belt...then the master SHOULD be able to knock out a GOOD grappler...but what if he doesnt? Hes d*cked...thats how I think it would go down...just speculation on my part...

[Musicalkatachmp]

AHA! now i get it! IF they are both invincible, how can either of them win??!!!

How did I figure this out...you won't be one bit surprised...

standing meditation

[Royal Dragon]

I'm going to say the Kung Fu master will lose, because by the time it takes to BECOME a Kung Fu master, he will be too old to fight.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
I'm going to say the Kung Fu master will lose, because by the time it takes to BECOME a Kung Fu master, he will be too old to fight.

Which conveniently ties into the "too deadly to fight" thing anyway! (too deadly/too old/too 'peaceful'/blahblahblah):D

[apoweyn]

merryprankster posts 3 replys and not one mention of Ap in a dress? What is this world coming to?

Do I need to ask for some tips on being manlier or something? Because me in a dress is becoming a recurring theme here.

Christ, it was only one semester.

[SevenStar]

According to RD, the Good Grappler actually does what the Good Kung Fu guy should do. Using this, they can be one and the same.

[backbreaker]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ralphie
[B]Well, since the Chinese figured out a long time ago that slippery silk pajamas are the ultimate anti-grappling outfit, the grappler would have no chance.

:D :D :D

[PT-Kali]

Why is it I'm a hater (from MerryP) because I believe in order to survive you must stay on your feet in a fight, when all these REAL MEN (grapplers) like to shove "grappling is the BEST" down our throats at every chance they get.

Wake up MerryP, UFC IS a controlled environment, unlike ANY street confrontation (ie no weapons, friends, with RULES), whether you like it or not, it's a SPORT.

[Liokault]

Ok time to sort this out.

It looks to me that in America you have tons of Kung Fu masters and even more "good" grapplers.

How hard could it be to put the two together and see what happens?

In fact it could be a good way or reducing the Kung fu master surplus that you guys seem to have (not that I would like to predict an out come:cool: ).

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by apoweyn


Do I need to ask for some tips on being manlier or something? Because me in a dress is becoming a recurring theme here.

Christ, it was only one semester.

Obviously, you need to emulate a paragon of manliness such as myself.

Behold, the machismo (http://www.princeton.edu/~moraski2/padrehat.jpg)

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by PT-Kali
Why is it I'm a hater (from MerryP) because I believe in order to survive you must stay on your feet in a fight, when all these REAL MEN (grapplers) like to shove "grappling is the BEST" down our throats at every chance they get.

Wake up MerryP, UFC IS a controlled environment, unlike ANY street confrontation (ie no weapons, friends, with RULES), whether you like it or not, it's a SPORT.

oy...............:rolleyes:
There seems to be some frequently recurring dogma 'round here.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by FatherDog


Obviously, you need to emulate a paragon of manliness such as myself.

Behold, the machismo (http://www.princeton.edu/~moraski2/padrehat.jpg)

And I thank you, sir, for a very badly needed laugh. :D

[rubthebuddha]

In fact it could be a good way or reducing the Kung fu master surplus that you guys seem to have lio -- indeed, it would be a good way, but it won't happen until we elect make sevenstar king and he decrees that all martial arts "masters" have to put up or shut up. cro-cop and royce will be his enforcers.

[Merryprankster]

SPORT.

Gee. Funny. I thought the payment and stuff was just for show. And all this time I thought these guys just had grudges against each other and the UFC represented exactly what was going on in a barfight.


Why is it I'm a hater (from MerryP) because I believe in order to survive you must stay on your feet in a fight, when all these REAL MEN (grapplers) like to shove "grappling is the BEST" down our throats at every chance they get.

Ah no. See, you started in with the stuff insinuating that the venue matters, then dismissing the UFC or similar events, insinuating they are so dissimilar to a real fight that they are immaterial. I contend that neither is true.

If the illegal techniques in UFC, Pride or a similar event really prevent a "Kung Fu Master" from winning then I would suggest their fighting ability is fundamentally flawed in some way. Granted, you have to actually train to be in shape and do a host of other things, but if the rules matter THAT much, then the person in question relies entirely too much on fluff and not enough on basic fighting abilities.

The events themselves are not so dissimilar to a real fight that performance in them can be dismissed. We grant that San Shou fighters are dangerous. We grant that boxers are dangerous. We grant that Judoka are dangerous. We grant that Muay Thai boxers are dangerous. Yet somehow an MMA fighter isn't? Sure, they may not train "for the street," but they are LONG on basic fighting skill sets. So they accidentally forget to kick you in the jimmy. A right to the chin works wonders, as does O Soto Gari or a double leg slam onto hard surfaces.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that a "grappler" is somehow going to hang out with you down there. I too would like to keep my feet in almost all situations. I would use MY grappling to put a bad guy in the street on the ground, kick**** his face in a few times and run like the ****ens. I would use MY grappling to foil the fairly pathetic attempts of non-grapplers to take me down. In the event that I wound up on the bottom because some guy blindsides me, I would use MY grappling to reverse the position and run like hell, rather than flail about like a retarded, wounded fish out of water while his buddies come up to beat on my face and I'm bleeding out because the ******* keeps hitting my nose and I have no idea how to move this 300 lbs behemoth who decided to be a **** for no apparent reason in the bar.

I can't be blamed if somebody is an idiot and isn't situationally aware. Your best weapon is your head. If some bozo wants to treat a streetfight like a sport BJJ match or try to make them equivalent in some twisted way, I can't fix that, any more than CMA can completely get rid of Neo-Hippies that think they can project their Chi power halfway across the room to destroy an incoming baddie.

[Merryprankster]

Oh... and Ap wears a dress while WD watches furtively.

[BentMonk]

This sounds like one of those wonderful debates we all had as kids. You know the, "Who would win Batman or Superman?" discussions. If they are both masters of their perspective games it would most likely be a draw.

[Water Dragon]

Merry! Quit wasting you time on this thread and go answer my Kung Fu Groundfighting querstion :mad:

[Merryprankster]

Hey, if I heal and I'm not busy that weekend (have something major), I'm coming to the May NAGA in Chicago.

[Water Dragon]

My MMA coach is competing in the NAGA. Let me know your plans when you find out for sure.

Need a place to stay? - done
Need to be fed while you're there? - done
Want to check out most of the good schools around? - done
Want toplay with some Kung Fu guys? (aka me) - most definately done.

[Merryprankster]

Awesome! Thanks! I'll let you know.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by PT-Kali
Why is it I'm a hater (from MerryP) because I believe in order to survive you must stay on your feet in a fight, when all these REAL MEN (grapplers) like to shove "grappling is the BEST" down our throats at every chance they get.

Wake up MerryP, UFC IS a controlled environment, unlike ANY street confrontation (ie no weapons, friends, with RULES), whether you like it or not, it's a SPORT.

but it's more realistic than practicing weapon and deadly empty had techniques at half speed or less, against an unresisting opponent...

[rubthebuddha]

merry -- three requests:

1. heal.
2. win naga.
3. keep posting replies like your last one. stuff like that is what helped rid me of my deluded assumptions about mma and grappling. hopefully, other people will follow suit.

[TAO YIN]

Seven says,

"but it's more realistic than practicing weapon and deadly empty had techniques at half speed or less, against an unresisting opponent..."


deadly empty had techniques??????? yes you are fully correct.

weapons,,,,,nah.......unless you are referring to it takes two to tango, and in order to understand how to use a weapon you must fight someone else using a weapon or something.

I don't recommend for one guy to be slicing with a sharpened gim or broadsword, while the other guy is empty handed and looking to john mccarthy for advice.

[PT-Kali]

ALL good points MerryP, especially: Your best weapon is your head.

[Merryprankster]

PT--

I apologize for jumping you as well as the stereotype.

You can be reasoned with!!! A pleasant surprise on a forum!

[Kymus]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
Two words: CHI BLAST

I'm supprised more Mc Kwoon masters don't claim to have learned that while they learned from their magic monk master *cough* temple kung fu *cough*

[Royal Dragon]

You know what, that MMA TCMA argument has gotten too old.

I think we've learned that those who really do practice authentic TCMA's are pretty tough, because they DO fight instead of just drill endless forms.

I think we've also established that having some sort of ground skills, in to day's world is benificial, even if it's just to escape and get back on your feet to do your thing.

BJJ has proven itself. And thanks to Kuo Shou, San Shou and guys like Ross, Mike Patterson, and many others who really do Kung Fu, so have the Chinese arts been proven.

At this point, it's not a one style is better thing anymore, it's a matter of how it's being taught. Is it all forms and pre arranged drills? or are the basics mastered, skills developed, and then TESTED against resisting opponents? Any school who follows the time tested formula, can, and do produce students who can fight well under a variety of conditions, and rules. Style is irrelevant today, as they ALL can be taught with that formula.

[MasterKiller]

Style is irrelevant today, as they ALL can be taught with that formula. RD Frankened this thread. :mad:

[SevenStar]

ever since his girl left him, he's been making more sense.

[DeathTouch]

i have not read any of the other posts just the main question , so heres my answer a true kung fu master would not be taken to the ground and if so he will strike the eyes , rip out his balls , bite , strike the throat , armpit , spine , A hole and any other convenient strikes that UFC does not allow happy

[DeathTouch]

p.s.

not to forget iron palm

[Royal Dragon]

He he he he, I guess she had a worse effect on me than I thought ehy?

[joedoe]

Originally posted by DeathTouch
i have not read any of the other posts just the main question , so heres my answer a true kung fu master would not be taken to the ground and if so he will strike the eyes , rip out his balls , bite , strike the throat , armpit , spine , A hole and any other convenient strikes that UFC does not allow happy

And the grappler would comply and allow him to do all this.

[Royal Dragon]

LOL!!! On the Girlfreind dumping me thing, after me, she hooked up with a Heating and Air conditioning guy who was trying to open his own buissness (What she told me) I heard later he was actually just a maintinance guy for the town home complex her parents live in, and got fired two months after she moved down there.

And get THIS!, he wears Women's Thong undies!!! :eek:

Of course the thing I'm laughing about the most is he dumped HER about 3 weeks ago!! THAT knocked her down a notch or two!

AAHHHH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!

OK, I'm better now, you may continue on with your regularly scedualed conversation. :D

[SevenStar]

see, what goes around comes around...

[Royal Dragon]

Yeah true. Now if I could only get her to come back for all this STUFF she left here.

Anyone want some 40 gallon snake cages? I have 3 of them, + about 6 or 7 ten gallon tanks, fishing poles, an end table, a desk, antique cook books from her great Grand ma, a christmas nativity display from the same great grand ma, a small refrigerator, and endless array of plant pots, dog bouls, some tools, a microwave, Sega and nintendo video game systems, games and a bunch of other misc. crap.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Yeah true. Now if I could only get her to come back for all this STUFF she left here.

Anyone want some 40 gallon snake cages? I have 3 of them, + about 6 or 7 ten gallon tanks, fishing poles, an end table, a desk, antique cook books from her great Grand ma, a christmas nativity display from the same great grand ma, a small refrigerator, and endless array of plant pots, dog bouls, some tools, a microwave, Sega and nintendo video game systems, games and a bunch of other misc. crap.

Have a garage sale.

[Royal Dragon]

I though about that, BUUUUUUUT she did spend 8 years helping raise my daughter, and she did a good job at it (Honor roll student, North east sectionals champ, who just took ANOTHER Gold, and two silvers at the Chicago style gymnastics comp. last weekend) I really could not have done it without her, so she's getting quite a bit of slack here.

Anyone else would have gotten her stuff thrown out by now (You can ask my ex wife about what I did to her water bed on this one)

[joedoe]

Fair enough. What she did was pretty low. Maybe you are a better man than I would be in the same situation.

[PT-Kali]

RD- Yeah, did a really good job helping to raise your daughter, and an even better job leaving her (and you) for some other jerk without regard for your daughter's feelings...

$CREW the B!TCH, man

Have a garage sale as mentioned, then take your daughter and by her a present with the money.

[Royal Dragon]

You could look at it that way, and Melissa [my daughter] is pretty hurt by it all. The thought of giving her what she wants of it, and tossing the rest of the stuff has crosssed my mind quite a bit actually. My daughter wants the cook books for instance.

I've given her till spring to get the stuff. If it's all still here then, things are going to change.

[stimulant]

Unfotunatly their are very few 'good' kung-fu masters left in the world.

but in the past (here I go again - said this in at leasts two different threads)

Huo Yuan Jia beat numerous wrestlers, Bare knuckle boxers and Strong men.

now thats not to say kung-fu is better, Hou Yuan Jia was just one of those naturally gifted people (think michael johnson in 400meters, steve redgrave - 5 gold medals form 5 DIFFERENT olympics in rowing etc etc etc).

most styles of kung-fu have all the tecnhiques needed to deal with a wrestler....but only a very few can use the techniques, whereas a pure wrestle usually doesnt have the techniques to deal with a kung-fu master. If the wrestle is from a mma back ground then the competition is far more in their favour. but again this depends on the master.

Master Brian Gary of iron palm fame in USA was knocked ot the gourn in more than one occasion when he did door work...what did he do......he knock out his opponents with Iron palm techniques when on the floor!

In this day and age my money would be on the wrestler / MMA person as in my view kung-fu skills are not that of old. (please dont refer to the thread about old video of two kung-fu masters fighting......it is a terrible display of lack of fighting skill!).

[truewrestler]

Pancrase used to be all iron palm but then they diluted the sport by allowing closed fist strikes. I am still outraged