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Gangsterfist
02-11-2004, 07:25 PM
Okay I am not sure if this has been brought up before, and I appologize if it has. I am still new to this forum, I have been reading off this forum for a few years now off and on, and just recently a few months ago started posting.


Multiple attackers:

There is no longer a center.

There are x number individual centers (if there are 5 opponets, 5 individual centers)

Keep all your opponets on one side (got this from book of the 5 rings)

Controlling one opponet too much is a waste of time, and dangerous.

Grappling while standing is good, but never go to the ground.

Stay on your feet, you might have to run.

-------------------------------------------------

These were just some ideas I have been toying with. I am looking into maybe possibly creating some multiple attackers situations to practice against. Any additional input, ideas, experiences are welcomed, and they don't have to be pure wing chun minded since I did include grappling. Then what wing chun methods do you think change when in a multiple attacker situation.

The situation is 3 or 4 people Vs you by yourself. No weapons in like a parking lot or parking garage; like a place a regular person would go 4 or 5 days of the week. To start off simple we will assume everyone is fighting with out any weapons, there is no one around to help you, and all assailants are about your size.

Ultimatewingchun
02-12-2004, 07:24 AM
Gangsterfist:

1) Try to place yourself at all times so that you're only fighting one guy at a time (trying to "put" him in-between you and everyone else).

2) Look for something in the environment to pick up and use as a weapon.

3) AVOID grappling as much as possible (if he grabs you and therefore slows down or stops your mobility - you're finished).

4) GET OUT OF THERE AS QUICKLY AS YOU CAN. There's no shame in running away from 3-4 guys.

chisauking
02-12-2004, 08:11 AM
When facing more than 1 opponents it's best to use the RLF
method: Run Like F**K

captain
02-12-2004, 08:35 AM
go buy the animal [john belushi] house dvd.on the documentary,the cast talk about being set upon by an actual phrat house a couple of days before filming.if you think your ma could handle that,then youre lucky.eventually,they ran away as quickly as possible.

Gangsterfist
02-12-2004, 08:38 AM
Originally posted by chisauking
When facing more than 1 opponents it's best to use the RLF
method: Run Like F**K

LOL


Okay, good topic so far I was gonna stress staying on your feet so you can run away. The only thing with running I don't like is your back is now facing your opponets. If they are as quick or faster than you that is bad.

I just recently read book of the 5 rings again and it has a lot of multiple attacker strategies. So I started thinking about it again.

Grappling, in multiple attackers seems it could be very effective. It would have to be done a certain way, obviously don't go the ground. I think some sweeps and slams to the ground would hurt your opponet and buy you some time while they are trying to get up.

Enviroment is always good. I always had the idea of if there were cars around run by and hit them. Try to set off car alarms and such to draw attention to the area.

Phsycology has always been discussed but I have never really trained it. Act physcho, perhaps they will back down. Rush one guy first and devastate him real bad quickly and then perhaps his buddies back off. Start speaking in tounges or whatever. Act like you have a weapon.

Just some more thoughts...

Gangsterfist
02-12-2004, 09:10 AM
Originally posted by captain
go buy the animal [john belushi] house dvd.on the documentary,the cast talk about being set upon by an actual phrat house a couple of days before filming.if you think your ma could handle that,then youre lucky.eventually,they ran away as quickly as possible.

Actually I have had plenty of run ins with frat boys. I have been at many parties in the past they have tried crashing, and it usually ended up in a fight.

anerlich
02-12-2004, 05:35 PM
"Okay, good topic so far I was gonna stress staying on your feet so you can run away. The only thing with running I don't like is your back is now facing your opponets."

You can't get away from them as fast going backwards, plus you may trip on objects you miss, etc. Then again, turning and running can trigger a chase where IN SOME circumstances it may be better to move calmly towards safety ... sorry, but there's no hard and fast rules. If I think an attempted beatdown is inevitable no matter what I do, I'm gonna run.

ESCAPE is ALWAYS your first priority.

"If they are as quick or faster than you that is bad."

Yes it is. Staying there and attempting to fight them all is unlikely to be an improvement though. Generally they won't ALL be faster than you, nor will they all be as highly motivated. Running away can string them out and reduce the immediate numbers you have to fight.

"I just recently read book of the 5 rings again and it has a lot of multiple attacker strategies. So I started thinking about it again."

After you've read that, read "Strong on Defense" by Sanford Strong, and "Street E&E" by Marc MacYoung, which IMO are much more practical unless you have Musashi's two swords and God-given talent.

"Grappling, in multiple attackers seems it could be very effective. It would have to be done a certain way, obviously don't go the ground. I think some sweeps and slams to the ground would hurt your opponet and buy you some time while they are trying to get up."

Not as good as ESCAPING.

"Enviroment is always good. I always had the idea of if there were cars around run by and hit them. Try to set off car alarms and such to draw attention to the area. "

Yep. A lot of this is covered in "Strong on Defense" .

"Phsycology has always been discussed but I have never really trained it. Act physcho, perhaps they will back down."

Maybe. Maybe not (see below).

Rush one guy first and devastate him real bad quickly and then perhaps his buddies back off. Start speaking in tounges or whatever."

Taking one guy out if you can't ESCAPE would no doubt give the others pause. Your loony act ight work. Or they might think a nutter will make an unreliable witness/victim who they can stomp with impunity.

A lot of Geoff Thompson's stuff on "The Fence", etc. deals with this sort of pre-fight psychology.

"Act like you have a weapon."

Bit of a dangerous tossup IMO. They might back off, OTOH this might increase the level of brutality and ferocity of the attack - they might feel justified in pulling their own, now you're in a multiopponent stick/knife/gunfight without a weapon rather than "just" a multiopponent fistfight. I'd rather act like I didn't have a weapon when I was carrying and catch them by surprise.

but only if I could not ESCAPE.

The odds of you prevailing in a two on one situation against motivated attackers is slight. Against three or more, the odds are close to zero. Forget about fighting and ESCAPE.

Gangsterfist
02-13-2004, 09:31 AM
Thanks for the input guys (and gals?).

Running away is the most stressed thing I have been taught, and I also think about with multiple attackers. So we can all agree that should be thought out.

However, I am thinking of some training scenarios that involve multiple attackers. So now that we all agree on running away, or escaping is the first priority lets now discuss what stratagies are good besides escaping. Lets say you had to fight, like you were cornered or when you tried running they were right on your tail the whole time.

Discuss.....

Gangsterfist
02-13-2004, 09:39 AM
Oh one more thing about psychology...


My sifu told us a story of about a martial artist he once knew that had a multiple attacker situation. He was cornered right outside the bar and his opponets were between him and his car. Before the fight broke out he rushed in and grabbed the closest guy by the throat and turned him around so that his back was facing the martial artist. He then took him hostage and said if they don't back off their friend is gonna get it. When they called his bluff he clenched hard cutting off blood and oxygen for a second to the guys throat. The guy made a nasty gargling sound and then all the assailants backed off, the MA walked over to his car and drove off. No one even really got hurt.

This may or may not be a smart thing to do I have never tried it. The whole time he was calm, and did not really raise his voice but was stern. He also acted like he was in control the whole time. All the wana be alpha males backed down. So there is a real huge psychological aspect of fighting we all know this, but what about it in multiple attackers?

Just some more ideas, please add your own...

Toby
02-15-2004, 05:27 AM
I'm glad that running sprints is my endurance workout. I know my speed and my limits much better now. If it came down to it, I've got no doubt my running skills are much improved over what they once were. Even though I'm not particularly fast (genetics :(), I can sprint a fair distance.

yuanfen
02-15-2004, 06:55 AM
Gangsterfist asks:

Just some more ideas, please add your own...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Madden when coaching the then winning Oakland Raiders
said to a player before sending him on to the field-
"Watch for the pass... hey watch for the run... hey watch everything!!".

Beyond technique.

anerlich
02-15-2004, 02:59 PM
So now that we all agree on running away, or escaping is the first priority lets now discuss what stratagies are good besides escaping. Lets say you had to fight, like you were cornered or when you tried running they were right on your tail the whole time.

Escaping remains the first priority. If you are trapped, you need to escape that trap. Go over around or through the obstances that prevent you from escaping.

Run towards the people and the light.

As mentioned a couple of times, read "Strong on Defense" and "Street E&E". Or for psychology, "The Fence" and "The Art of Fighting without Fighting" by Geoff Thompson.

I've heard of that psychology situation with taking a hostage. I've also heard of it backfiring in a real situation. "I hate that guy anyway" sort of thing.

You will NOT get better advice here or anywhere else than you will find in those books. What are you waiting for?

JamesHFYofAZ
02-15-2004, 03:30 PM
What? These must be drunk dudes or really no-skill individuals, and if they are not all attacking at once then you might have a chance. Your kung Fu should keep one out of that type of situation. My Sifu always says " never were tight, pink, leather pants to a biker bar. Thats bad Kung Fu":D
Have fun training!

Gangsterfist
02-16-2004, 12:52 PM
Well I keep getting the same answers of running away, and not to wear something offending in certain enviroments. This is all well and good. Let me tell you a real scenerio that happened to a friend of mine.

He is a skater and his group of skate boarders and another group did not like each other for whatever reasons. I don't skateboard so maybe I don't understand. The group that disliked my friends group found him by himself at a park and jumped him. 5 on 1. My other friend who trains kung fu with me happened to live by that park and was walking by and saw it going down. He immediately rushed in and started fighting helping his friend out. I don't know the exact things that went on because they both say that its all fuzzy to them because of the adrenaline rush and it happened real fast but both of them walked away on a 5 versus 2 fight. They got hit and had a few bruises but nothing bad. They fought to a standpoint and took off. So in the end they did run, but there was a fight before that.

So reguardless of the scenerio and running is not an option (you might be helping someone you know getting their butt kicked or whatever). What are some drills, exercises, techniques, training, sparring whatever you have used?

Please post what you have done in the past not what you have read out of a book. I have read lots of books but probably won't be able to apply what I read with out some real hands on experiecne.

Gangsterfist
02-16-2004, 12:56 PM
However, I am looking into those books as well. I am looking for some real world experience thats all. I remember in high school I got jumped a few times and was able to fight my way out of just by not freezing up and waiting for my opportunity to run away.

However, thanks to all that posted.