Calling all Shaolin Americans

[GeneChing]

Will we see you on July 24-25? (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/news/index.php?month=07&year=2004) This is a SONGSHAN SHAOLIN ONLY contest. :cool:

Tell 'em Gene sent you.

[Shaolinlueb]

hmmm hoboken isnt too far. my uncle used to live there.

whos going to be doing the seminars?

[dimmakseminar]

Dear Mr. GeneChing:

It appears that this competition may be open to all disciples of the true Shao-Lin lineage, whether they be from the USA or from Europe. Trusted sources have informed me that many of the US Monks (Shi Guolin, Shi Yan Ming, Shi Hengxin, Shi Jamal Brown:D , Shi Justin Z.:D, Shi Xing Hao and Shi Xing Ying) in addition to the European schools may have been invited to the event. The buzz around the community is starting to get louder!

Sincerely,

dimmakseminar

[norther practitioner]

I'd like to go see that, but it is kinda close to Jimmy's tourney.. I don't think I'll have the funds to attend both.

[GeneChing]

Shi Xing Peng (Zhang Lipeng) (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=144) organized a similar event in Europe a few years back. His vision is to reunite the Shaolin brotherhood abroad, so this event is in part to actualize that vision. He is inviting all Songshan Shaolin lineage masters and students to come together and celebrate our heritage. After some of the petty feuds that have gone down between a few of the monks, Lipeng is offering a space where everyone can get together and resolve their differences. It will be wonderful to see some of the monks together in the same room, and if anyone can do this now, it's Lipeng, since his heart is only for Shaolin kung fu.

I wouldn't miss it. :cool:

[mortal]

I'll be there.

[Shaolinlueb]

im gonna try to get a couple of the schools in our organization to go. it isnt that far away.

[KWUsCRD]

[ EDITED ]

I got everything cleared up!

I'll be there! *starts to clap then cries*

[mortal]

Shaolinlueb

What monk do you train under?

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by mortal
Shaolinlueb

What monk do you train under?

I dont train under a Monk directly. My shifu trained Under Shi Yan Ming for a period of time. Do you have to be only a monks student to compete in it?

[Fen]

Well I gess that the Real old Shaolin Kung Fu styles (Northern and Southern Pai) do not get to be in the Competition and Demonstrations . Only the NEW Shaolin world. Thats ok. :(

~Jason

[Shaolinlueb]

hmmm if thats the case........ my sifu was taught shaolin kung fu 30 years ago by leung li fu. so if only the modern ones, im sure i could scrape some up.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by dimmakseminar
. The buzz around the community is starting to get louder!
[/B]

Had to turn it down ******..so now leaves the question...who's doing the video and how much do you want for it? :D ;)

[KubanLink]

I am new to Kung fu and just started training with Hengxin in NYC. What is the competion like? What to they compete in--forms, sparring...?

[Tsingtao]

Mortal,

Where are you training now. Haven't seen you in awhile.

[DeathTouch]

I will definitely be there can't miss this

[blooming lotus]

Gene...will there be some footage available to buy? Maybe Lipeng should look at that, I'm sure I'm not the only one interested...and extra $$ is extra $$ right ;) ...hell they should go whole hog and do payperview mainevent :D :D :D


Ps. has anyone else received their rules and details info??

[mickey]

Gene,

Are other legit shaolin lineages other than the current crop of monks allowed to participate? Or, is this more political stuff?

mickey

[gilgamesh]

it's not a political thing. there are several tournaments across the country that serve baksilum and other kung fu styles. this seems to be a first-time project to organize a unified competition for all those schools that practice songshan shaolin kung fu. things like xiao hong quan, tong bei, and perhaps some san shou component.

as gene said, as many monks as there are in the US, there really hasn't been any 'us songshan competition.'

just my thoughts :)

[ninja]

This tournament should be a lot of fun. Most of the shaolin schools in the USA are invited. Hopefully all will show up. A group of about 10 of Li Peng's European students will be coming. You can get more information by contacting Li Peng on his website.

[mickey]

Thank you gilgamesh,

mickey

[blooming lotus]

please don't feel limited if you are outside the US, people from all over the world have been issued invites....the competition is the second one of its kind (organised and run by Lipeng)....the only criteria is that you're a current member of a Shaolin kungfu school. It is the biggest event to hit international shaolin kungfu since the last one....go along and check it out...will be well worth the time for any dedicant :D

[xiao]

In fact, this is the 3e international Shaolin competition that liPeng is organising..1998 and 2000 in Europe and now in NJ..
But this one will be more special than the previous one's....

[Fen]

OK, I'm confused....please clarify the "Stipulations" of entry for me. As one person stated on here, anyone that studies at a Shaolin Kung Fu school is invited. But from what i'm reading and understanding, this is not really the case! I'd like a bit more clarification on this please.

Thanks!

[Shaolinlueb]

i emailed them for info. i told my shifu about it. a couple people were more interested in the serminars.

[ninja]

Basicly the tournament is open to students of Hengxin, Li Peng, Yan Ming, Goulin, Xing Hao, De shan or maybe a few other shaolin monk masters. This is because it would be too hard to judge form and techniques from other styles. It's not a big thing if you can compete or not. Just come and have fun. Take some seminars and watch some amazing performances. It should be a fun weekend.

[blooming lotus]

thats just not true...I am not a member or student of any of those and I was invited ... if in too much doubt, check out the website or send him (Lipeng) an email...the more the merrier..I'm sure he'll be glad to hear from ya ;)

[blooming lotus]

ok...just re-read the invite....


"the competition portion is open to students of guenuine shaolin kungfu schools. The seminar portion is open to all . A number of shaolin monks will hold seminars on various topics. On saturday night there will be a masters demonstration" (:D :D :D )details will follow on the website in a few wks..dated jan 27 '04.....

;)

[KubanLink]

Does anyone know whether you could just be a spectator?

[Shaolinlueb]

i emailed him he will send me info. my sigong is lueng li fu from bak shaolin eagle claw. my sifu was trained intraditional shaolin forms then lau family style eagel claw and my sifu trained with shi yan ming for a while so i dont see why our schools wouldnt be able to compete? :dunno: i have forms like lain bu and moi fa. :dunno:

[ninja]

I am a friend and student of Teacher Li Peng. I am also close with those in charge of making the invite. If you are not a student of those listed above or a student of Jamal Brown you may not be invited. I say may because nothing in terms of invites has been decided completely. Only the announcment has been released. The final invites and rules will be announced shortly. The forms will be xiao hong, tong bei, da lohan, lian huan, zhao yong, spear, straight sword, staff, broadsword, basics category, self-defense (rules to be announced).

[GeneChing]

...somebody corret me if I'm wrong. Although it would be cool to open something like this up to the BSL lineages, but then again, where would you stop? Shaolin-Do? :p

By the way, we wouldn't want you Europeans to feel left out - See May 1st! (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/news/index.php?month=05&year=2004)

Songshan Shaolin - comin' at ya! :cool:

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by ninja
I am a friend and student of Teacher Li Peng. I am also close with those in charge of making the invite. If you are not a student of those listed above or a student of Jamal Brown you may not be invited. I say may because nothing in terms of invites has been decided completely. Only the announcment has been released. The final invites and rules will be announced shortly. The forms will be xiao hong, tong bei, da lohan, lian huan, zhao yong, spear, straight sword, staff, broadsword, basics category, self-defense (rules to be announced).

so its only to watch and seminars then. oh well. seminars are good :D

[Fen]

Originally posted by GeneChing
...somebody corret me if I'm wrong. Although it would be cool to open something like this up to the BSL lineages, but then again, where would you stop? Shaolin-Do? :p

By the way, we wouldn't want you Europeans to feel left out - See May 1st! (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/news/index.php?month=05&year=2004)

Songshan Shaolin - comin' at ya! :cool:

It's nice to know that Traditional Shaolin Kung Fu is in the same group as shaolin do'h and all the other fake CMA out there.

[norther practitioner]

I think what they are saying if you do any Songshan forms you can compete... aka, if you do one of the monks versions of say.. da lohan or xiao hong chuan... etc.

[Fen]

oooo i see PRC kung fu!

thanks NP!:D

[dimmakseminar]

Dear Mr Tao of Wushu:

By reading your posts, one might think that you are being a bit defensive about your lineage. Interesting that many of the forms announced about by Mr. ninja! are in the old turn of the century Shao-Lin transcripts and early 1900's textbooks, and yet still there are people that claim that Songshan Shao-Lin is PRC. This competition appears not to be about the Monks (I'm sure they've heard much worse than you can throw at them) but is about the students and the forms. The Monks that I know don't care if you consider them PRC--they know what is in their heart. The students, after practicing for a while, don't care if you consider them PRC --they know what is in their heart. It appears that the only people that are truly concerned are those that are not of Songshan Shao-Lin - and what is in their hearts, what is their motive?

Further, it is interesting that many of the BSL practitioners do not allow Songshan practitioners at their competitions, yet you never hear a word about it. Yet, when the Songshan practitioners come along with a competition of their own, the BSL'ers want to be a part of it, or create controversy. Why is that?

Sincerely,

dimmakseminar

[GeneChing]

Now this does sound familiar... (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=158) Actually, my research has progressed a bit since I wrote that e-zine piece on Songshan Shaolin vs. BAk Sil Lum through my work with Dr. Meir Shahar. He's found evidence of the Songshan forms documented back to the 16th century, long before the PRC. Now, one might argue that the PRC monks simply reconstructed these forms to fit what was described, but here's the rub, Dr. Shahar's discovery was a scholarly find. No one knew about these documents prior to his find - they were locked in some library somewhere. Dr. Shahar had no prior knowledge of the curriculam of Shaolin. When he brought copies of these documents to the monks, they were ecstatic.

There is no record of Bak Sil Lum that we've been able to trace beyond what we have now. Now, being a BSL person myself, this in NO WAY invalidates the practice, or the claim that it is of Shaolin descent. In fact, any monk that looks at BSL will acknowledge it's Shaolin roots. The point that is significant here is that a BSL person should not take the stance that Songshan is PRC, because that argument will lead to the scholarly retort, and then where will we be?

Personally, I would love to see the BSL forms reclaimed by Songshan. There's been some traces, some parallel forms, although they are very faint. It's really up to the BSL community to find more if they want a stronger claim to the heritage. Surely BSL can go on practicing whatever it wants, but in my heart, I feel the genuine link is there, buried somewhere over time, so I pursue it when I can. Clearly, the strategy of opposition is inappropriate.

[norther practitioner]

Gene, was I correct in my assumption earlier?

[dimmakseminar]

Dear Mr. GeneChing:

Thank you for your most informative posts. I (and others I'm sure) sincerely appreciate all of the effort that you take in making Shao-Lin Kungfu QiGong Magazine and this forum one of the most informative sources of this type of information. I almost met you one time, as we were just a few short feet away from each other as you spoke with my Master...but that is a story for another time. :D

Sincerely,

dimmakseminar

[Pk_StyLeZ]

what bout forms such as tradtional long fist...plum flower...da hong and seven star....and others i missed...and which broadsword form and which staff form will be competing??or just any shoalin broadsword and any shaolins staff??and what about that new shaolin compulsory form..known as shaolin qui ding chang..wil dat be in it??..i am askign these quesitons..becase i want to attend..but im not sure if i can..since i am in houston..and that is up there north somewhere...what is basic category??...who will be the judges??the monks??...so only one event at a time??..or many??..or don tknow??just very curious dats all..thank

[KubanLink]

Originally posted by GeneChing
Now this does sound familiar... (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=158) Actually, my research has progressed a bit since I wrote that e-zine piece on Songshan Shaolin vs. BAk Sil Lum through my work with Dr. Meir Shahar. He's found evidence of the Songshan forms documented back to the 16th century, long before the PRC. Now, one might argue that the PRC monks simply reconstructed these forms to fit what was described, but here's the rub, Dr. Shahar's discovery was a scholarly find. No one knew about these documents prior to his find - they were locked in some library somewhere. Dr. Shahar had no prior knowledge of the curriculam of Shaolin. When he brought copies of these documents to the monks, they were ecstatic.

There is no record of Bak Sil Lum that we've been able to trace beyond what we have now. Now, being a BSL person myself, this in NO WAY invalidates the practice, or the claim that it is of Shaolin descent. In fact, any monk that looks at BSL will acknowledge it's Shaolin roots. The point that is significant here is that a BSL person should not take the stance that Songshan is PRC, because that argument will lead to the scholarly retort, and then where will we be?

Personally, I would love to see the BSL forms reclaimed by Songshan. There's been some traces, some parallel forms, although they are very faint. It's really up to the BSL community to find more if they want a stronger claim to the heritage. Surely BSL can go on practicing whatever it wants, but in my heart, I feel the genuine link is there, buried somewhere over time, so I pursue it when I can. Clearly, the strategy of opposition is inappropriate.

Gene: Is there a part 2 or part 3 to that article?

[oasis]

yes, and all three parts were a great piece of research.

part 2: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=157

part 3: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=156

Gene, are there any links in which we can read about Dr. Shahar's research regarding the history of songshan forms?

or will you be putting something together for us soon? :D keep up the great work!

[Fen]

I know what is in my heart as well. And there's no "BSL" tournatments that I know of. Most of your Kung Fu Practitioners go to OPEN Kung Fu tournatments or OPEN Mixed tournaments. We don't have our "own" either. I didn't say I wanted to be part of it. I was curious if the "REAL" shaolin system was going to be apart of it. Apparently YOU're the one that has a problem with BSL. Or, at least, that's what I gather.


Gene-
I don't know about you, but I know I'm above Shoalin Do. Please don't catergorize the BSL that we practice in with Shaolin Do, it's insulting!


For those people interested in Dr. Meir Shahar's work:
You can go to your local library and ask them to get "Ming-Period Evidence of Shaolin Martial Practice" an article in the Harvard journal of Asiatic studies. I recommend that you read this article for yourself, and see what you think about it.

~Jason

[Shaolinlueb]

hmm you can always go to karate tournies, make your form look more basic, throw in some yells and get first. :D

[GeneChing]

Well I broached Shaolin-do to be somewhat incendiary, since that's always a hot topic around here. I was at a Shaolin-Do demo at the Shaolin Temple Wushuguan, so I got a chance to get a first hand reaction from the warrior monks themselves. To them, it can all be considered Shaolin, since Shaolin is everyone's granddad, so to speak. And Buddhism has strict tenets on being non-possessive of the teachings. So this does bring up another big grey zone with Shaolin - where do you draw the line? FWIW, there are Shaolin lineages that are not from Songshan, BSL or Shaolin-do. And of course, there's the Shorinji stuff. Plus the five major southern styles draw there roots to Shaolin. So it's pretty mixed up.

As for this upcoming tournament in NJ, it's my understanding that only Songshan lineages will be showcased, but I do not know for sure yet. It sounds like it'll be more like a traditional tournament at Shaolin. My other big question is, will there be sparring? There usually is at Shaolin. In any case, it's exciting for all the Shaolin lineages. And I personally hope some Shaolin-do people show up.

As for judges, that's a very good question too. Probably the monks will judge. I've been asked to judge, and I usually balk at such a request, since I really don't care to judge at all. Who am I to judge? But I was asked by Lipeng personally, and I understand why. I know the forms and am non-partisan, or at least less baised than monks who might have students there competing. So I will honor his request, if need be. And if I do, please, please, put the Shaolin-do guys in my ring. ;)

[xiao]

there will be no sparring..only some defence techniques drills...

I think...

[Songshan]

So where does the Yin and the Yang end? Or does it ever end? No matter how or in what way you ask the question "What is considered Shaolin Kung Fu?" it seems they all run in an endless circle. What is traditional Shaolin? What is modern Shaolin? Which art can call themselves Shaolin? What is considered Shaolin, what's not? I think these discussions are kicked around all the time because of course we know the Shaolin Temple history wasn't stable and I think these are the consequences of that. Everything is kind of scattered out.

[KubanLink]

Gene- I read the 3 articles. They were great. As a person who is only now embarking on the path of learning Shaolin Gongfu (and, perhaps, coincidentally Buddhism), I thank you. I look forward to the opportunity more through you by way of your articles and, hopefully, meeting you in July.

Amitofuo...to all of you sharing your knowledge, experiences and opinions on this forum.

[KubanLink]

Gene- I read the 3 articles. They were great. As a person who is only now embarking on the path of learning Shaolin Gongfu (and, perhaps, coincidentally Buddhism), I thank you. I look forward to the opportunity more through you by way of your articles and, hopefully, meeting you in July.

Amitofuo...to all of you sharing your knowledge, experiences and opinions on this forum.

[Shaolinlueb]

oh gene i want to compete so bad :(

[blooming lotus]

there's always the Zhengzhou Shaolin wushu festival on ....when was that date Gene??lol....:p ;)

[GeneChing]

My understanding is that they will hold the Shaolin Festival this year in tandem with the First World Traditional Wushu (Kung Fu) Championships to be held in Zhengzhou (see 9-22-04 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/news/index.php?month=09&year=2004) ). The WTW(KF)C is a new event, being hosted by the IWuF. It is an international event, but like the World Wushu Games does for Wushu and sanshou (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=449), each country must qualify a team. It is not an open. That will be very interesting, since it is supposed to be all traditional, not modern wushu. Apparently the Shaolin festival, which was cancelled last year due to SARS, will be held at more or less the same time.

Now, for those of you who have never been to a Shaolin Festival (nor read any of my articles on the festivals), these are incredibly crazy events. It is not centrally organized so there are different tournaments and happenings going on more or less simultaneuosly all over - at Shaolin Temple, in nearby Dengfeng and in Zhengzhou (about an hour or two away by car). In the past, there have been major shows that have taked up the huge Zhengzhou stadium, tournaments that were open to anyone and any style (but mostly foreigners competed), tournaments that were just local, just for sanda, just for wushu, or just for traditional, smaller shows in places like the wushuguan, special clebrations in the temple, and just general craziness with monks, disciples and students returning from all over the world. Add the WTW(KF)C and it'll be even crazier.

[norther practitioner]

Wow, that sounds awsome, that'd be something that I might try to time into my trip.

[Shaolinlueb]

man I just read those e-zine articles. very interesting. guess I do bak sil lum not songshan. i still love it :D

[blooming lotus]

Gene, you've done the zhengzhou shaolin festivals before...can we expect many of the US monks to turn up?

[GeneChing]

Yanming and Guolin have been there, but I doubt that Yanming would go back after some previous incidents (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=5). Who knows? I don't think Xinghao has been back. Deshan went back once, was it last year? I don't know about the others. Most Chinese immigrants choose to stay in the US once they get here, especially if they are on visas.

[KWUsCRD]

Rule change for the competition...

"Rule Change (Please be advised) Competition is open to any and all who study Shaolin. Have a nice weekend."

That was just sent to me in an e-mail from Lipeng Zhang.

Maybe we can get a confirmation from Gene?

[blooming lotus]

Gene, I have just had another look over your posts regarding talks with Dr.Shahar....you're right...this information is a buzz....Dr.sharhar is from the tel aviv university right??.....for the sake of research perspective ..can you tell us what branch of qualification he has? It may be in the articles but blah blah blah virus...drama...???:D :p

cheers

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by KWUsCRD
Rule change for the competition...

"Rule Change (Please be advised) Competition is open to any and all who study Shaolin. Have a nice weekend."

That was just sent to me in an e-mail from Lipeng Zhang.

Maybe we can get a confirmation from Gene?

:eek:

hmmm now I am waiting for something :D

[ninja]

"Rule change"?? There were never any official rules published.

[GeneChing]

...I'd hate to speak for others incorrectly.

Shaolin Martial Arts Contest 2004 (http://www.americaneuropeanshaolin.com)

Dr. Meir Shahar (http://www.tau.ac.il/humanities/eastasia/Members/mshahar/mshahar.html)

[KWUsCRD]

Originally posted by ninja
"Rule change"?? There were never any official rules published.

That is an exact copy of the e-mail he sent me.

Take it up with him if you have a problem with what he said.

[norther practitioner]

Is there a link somewhere on that site that has any more info on that tournie? I just see a little blurb talking about it, but no real info.

[GeneChing]

I'm sure there will be more to come. This is the first time he's doing this in the USA, so I'm sure he's working on many loose ends. If you have a serious pressing question, I'm sure you can contact them through the website.

[Shaolinlueb]

i contacted him and gave him my mailing address. i gues he is putting a lot of stuff together. cant wait to see this.

[GeneChing]

BTW, the date of the WTW(KF)C has been changed to 10-16-04 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/news/index.php?month=10&year=2004).

Shaolinlueb - did you mention to Lipeng that you heard it here?

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by GeneChing
BTW, the date of the WTW(KF)C has been changed to 10-16-04 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/news/index.php?month=10&year=2004).

Shaolinlueb - did you mention to Lipeng that you heard it here?

No I did not gene.

[norther practitioner]

Well you should have...:D

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by norther practitioner
Well you should have...:D


my bad :(

[GeneChing]

maybe when we both see him at the tournament. ;)

[xiao]

he already knows what's going on here....lol

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by GeneChing
maybe when we both see him at the tournament. ;)

...........

we can go get a cup of coffee? :o

[xiao]

Little Update..more to come

www.americaneuropeanshaolin.com

[norther practitioner]

Thanks xiao...

[GeneChing]

So just mark your calendars and watch here (http://www.americaneuropeanshaolin.com/html/competitionpage.htm). Personally, I'm pretty excited about it. I won't reveal one of the special traditional shaolin events, because I want you to read the mag to get it, but it's way up there and I can't wait to see it.

p.s. shaolinlueb, I don't drink coffee anymore - just tea and beer. ;) I always like to meet forum members face-to-face at events, but I will warn you that my dance card gets pretty full fast, as you might imagine. Gotta take care of business, you know.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by GeneChing
p.s. shaolinlueb, I don't drink coffee anymore - just tea and beer. ;) I always like to meet forum members face-to-face at events, but I will warn you that my dance card gets pretty full fast, as you might imagine. Gotta take care of business, you know.


thats good cause i dont drink coffee either how about beer flavored tea or tea flavored beer. :confused: lol. ill probably be down there with my association. i'll swing by and say hello.

[GeneChing]

Methinks that would be too hard on my bladder and I'd miss all the good stuff at the tournament relieving the pressure. Irregardless, it would be great to see you all there. Definately say hello! Looking forward to the event. It'll be fascinating just to see which monks show up. If Zhang Lipeng acutally can get everyone together in the same room, that would be fantastic.

[KubanLink]

Is LiPeng experiencing difficulty finding monks/ex-monks to attend? I'm new to Shaolin, but I sense a lot of tension and politics. I suppose you find this sort of thing in any community, but ... I don't know....

My Shifu has not mentioned anything about this to us and I'm curious as to whether he is going to be supportive of LiPeng or at least of his students who wish to participate.

LiPeng should be supported in this by his Shaolin brothers.

This whole East meets West is tricky.

[dimmakseminar]

Dear Mr. KubanLink:

Why would LiPeng be experiencing difficulty? It is apparently he whom has contacted many of his monk/ex-monk brothers to invite them to the event and to gain their support. Whether they choose to attend, or to support their students in attending, is up to them.

Since the event appears to be about the brotherhood of Shao-Lin, it seems to me that it is the monks/ex-monks that are hesitant about attending that might be experiencing personal difficulty.

Respectfully yours,

dimmakseminar

[norther practitioner]

Kuban, who do you study with?

as far as politics.. welcome to cma.

[GeneChing]

There have been some issues between a few of the monks on how best to spread Shaolin in America. That has caused some splits. That's another reason why this tournament is really exciting, because it has potential to mend those rifts. Lipeng held a successful event like this in Europe, and I understand that there will be some of the European monks represented there too.

[KubanLink]

Gene: What are some of the pedagogic ideals that they differ on? Is it a whether to teach application type of thing? Enlighten us. (I'm not interested in who is fighting with whom.)

[blooming lotus]

it's hard to comment without some sort of bias or opinion , but I was just thinking the same thing...maybe without names......hate to put you on the spot and all...what ARE the different means they're conflicting on?? I remember this being mentioned several times

[GeneChing]

I would say most of the disagreements are on the formalities or the degree of intensity. Shaolin practice is always watered down here in the USA because we all have regular school or jobs. At Shaolin, training is training for a career. It's a commitment, six days out of seven, all day.

In truth, I think America is not big enough to support two masters in the same house. I don't think that's exclusive to Shaolin at all, but it seems more severe when monks separate.

[KubanLink]

[i]In truth, I think America is not big enough to support two masters in the same house. I don't think that's exclusive to Shaolin at all, but it seems more severe when monks separate. [/B]

Gene: By "house" do you mean training hall or Amerina in general?

In my feable mind, I think in would be if the Shaolin Temple could officially centralize itself here in America--establishing one or a few officially sanctioned temples or training halls with live-in facilities and then branch out and establish smaller training halls for folks that want to how want to train on a part time basis (those of us who want to learn Chan Buddism and gongfu but still lead a layman's life). In my utopia, there would always be monks/ex-monks who would want to do their own thing--as the situation is now. Am I being too idealistic? As I understand it, this is what Yan Ming's plan is, without the official sanction part.

Is my perspective completely off?

When Shaolin masters come here to the West to establish a school, its important for them to realize that we are (generally speaking) individualists and pragmatists, especially here in America and that different people want to persue and learn about Chan and Shaolin for different reasons. Those masters who come here and realize and appreciate this are those who will be most successful with their students.

[GeneChing]

By house I mean a wushuguan. There's plenty of room for more Shaolin monks. If only we could get one in every city... :cool:

As for your temple idea, your perspective is really off. Unfortunately it is shared by many, including Chinese promoters doomed to failure. The problem is our culture doesn't really promote martial arts as a viable career option, nor does it really support religious institutions in the same way. The idea of a sustainable temple would require considerable capital to start up, and moreso, considerable capital to maintain. For the most part, martial arts schools in the USA will be delegated to strip mall size, barring a few exceptions for live-in halls, like Wah Lum. Nevertheless, it's a romantic vision and I'm sure more will be attempted. GM Jou Tsung Hwa's Tai Chi farm was successful while the master was alive and I know that GM Liang Shouyu is setting up and O-mei place on a large piece of property in Canada. There was talk of a Dragon Temple for years, but all that seemed to produce was some colorful ads in the mags. Particular to Shaolin, Yaming has talked about his school for a while. But to my knowledge, Guolin is the only one who has managed to build a brick and mortar temple that he owns. I think all the others rent spaces. There's been talk of a project in Parump NV, and one here in Oakland CA, both considering importing some monks. Those porjects died down a while ago, but just recently, I've been hearing talk of them again.

I think the experience of my dear disciple bro Dr. Rich Russell of russbo.com sums it up. He gets regular inquiries of people who want to come out to train with Shi Xingwei, the monk he's hosting in Las Vegas. Most of them ask if they can come out and stay with him, FOR FREE. Seriously, it's not like the old monastery days where you can farm for your food. Everyone has to pay rent. If I opened a temple today, would you have enough money to afford your room and board plus tuition for the next couple of years? Your costs would be akin to college. Today, not enough peopel are that dedicated to make such an investment.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by KubanLink


Gene: By "house" do you mean training hall or Amerina in general?

In my feable mind, I think in would be if the Shaolin Temple could officially centralize itself here in America--establishing one or a few officially sanctioned temples or training halls with live-in facilities and then branch out and establish smaller training halls for folks that want to how want to train on a part time basis (those of us who want to learn Chan Buddism and gongfu but still lead a layman's life). .

that's kinda a catch 22 situation because if you're really committed to it, to ch'an and buddhism..tghe deeper you go the less of a casual affair it becomes...it becomes lifestyle and this whole pat-time concept ceases to exist ;)

ON GENES COMMENTS: I know of a disciple in Austraila who is doing exctly that..building a shaolin wushuguan to house and train monks and students and take part time external class loads..the dude is looking at spending 5 000 000 Aus $$ and gave himself 5 ish yrs...it's a mission...and as "nice" as it would be to see this beautful peice of culture in our everyday existence as westerners..it's just not practical..and to take it out of China wholey and permanently, is just rediuculous...

be nice to be so close though ..hay ;) :D

Pls see shaolin kungfu school : kungfu magazine Shoalin special edition :D :D :D

[norther practitioner]

Bottom line, if someone wants to do this (as a lifestyle choice) all they need to do is save up some $ and go to China for a while, it has been done, will be done, etc... There are a lot of things that make it hard to do in the US.

[brothernumber9]

Perhaps the focus could be shifted to opening a chan buddhist temple that would "coincidentally" teach shaolin. The initial market would be towards chinese and american born chinese and anyone in the know that wished to practice chan buddhism but for now are relegated mostly to the back rooms of jewelry and video stores. The temple would be like most others that are supported by donations from it's congregation and visitors and could receive some tax shelters for being non for profit as well as eligibility for some private grants. After opening, some of the focus could shift into the teachings of shaolin. This seems like one of the more viable options for trying to initiate a temple of sorts, eventhough the initial capital for real estate and construction would seem a bit daunting. However as stated before, martial arts is still not considered a normal viable career in the U.S. so the primary function for the temple would have to remain, at least in appearance, for practice of chan buddhism.

[dimmakseminar]

Originally posted by brothernumber9
The temple would be like most others that are supported by donations from it's congregation and visitors and could receive some tax shelters for being non for profit as well as eligibility for some private grants...so the primary function for the temple would have to remain, at least in appearance, for practice of chan buddhism.

Dear Brother #9:

That sounds very familiar. Perhaps we could inform Shi Yan Ming and Shi Goulin of this most excellent plan.

Sincerely,

dimmakseminar

[GeneChing]

Shi Goulin has a functioning temple in Flushing's Chinatown. The front of the building, constructed to echo the gate of Shaolin, is a chan hall where chan services are held. It is a true chan temple and several monks reside there, some to teach martial arts, some to teach buddhism. The back of the building, which can be entered from another door, is the wushuguan. I'm sure it's non-profit. I'm not sure about the non-profit status of the other monks. Many of them have stated that they don't feel qualifiied to teach chan - although it is part of their practice, their main emphasis was kung fu, so they don't use the term 'temple' in the name of their school.

The big problem is finding the sangha, so to speak. The idea of
supported by donations from it's congregation and visitors sounds great, but I'll tell you from direct experience - I've worked on several charity projects in the martial arts - from promoting conservation with Jackie Chan (http://www.wildaid.org/) to my work with The Tiger Claw Foundation (http://www.tigerclawfoundation.org/) and with the martial arts community, it's often like squeezing blood from a turnip. Unfortunately, despite what a lot of martial artists say, many of us are not generous or rich. Which is why I post the example of Dr. Russell above. I hear of all these people who say they'd want to study with a Shaolin monk - well, he's got one. All you need to do is go. Of course, you'd have to pay your own way. Any takers? The same problem exists with all of the monks. You can go study with Guolin, Yanming, Lipeng, Xinghao, or any of them - they're here and their teaching. But of course, it's not a free ride. You need to pay tuition, food and rent. If you're not going to do that now, why would a big temple make any difference?

[dimmakseminar]

Dear Mr. GeneChing:

You underestimate our sense of sarcasm, or else I overestimate others' ability to interpret it from my posts. My question would be, if I am studying with Guolin or Yan Ming, are my class fees considered charitable gifts, and I can therefore deduct them from my taxes? Any bean counters in the peanut gallery?

Sincerely,

dimmakseminar

PS: I look forward to meeting you in Hoboken!

[brothernumber9]

The difference would be that the temple would be supported by patrons for buddhist services and practices. However I see that if the monks are reluctant or unqualified to run these services and duties that creates a hurdle that may not be pass-able. The image I had in mind was that there would be a buddhist temple for chan buddhist practices, the religeous practices would be overseen by buddhist monks versed in such services that may or may not have anything to do with shaolin but that would be accepting of having a shaolin martial monk in residence. The martial monk if unqualified or not confident enough to oversea some of the religeous aspects could continue to learn from the more learned one(s) and to a religeous side of things serve as somewhat of an apprentice or junior.
I say they would run off of "donations" but I don't mean that people would just come in at their whim and drop money in a bucket or bag or leave in front of a worship area. All services would imply a "donation" fee that would be based on who and how many one would request for particular service(s) and how much they could afford in an arrangement with the monk(s) and or lay people. I haven't been to many buddhist temples, particularly chan. but of the one's I have been to there are some activities, lanquage programs, music programs, dance programs, chanting, etc taught by the monks or lay affiliates that have developed into fixture like curriculums there that have attracted more and more patrons of all ages even though that is not what they were originated for. My final point being to add a kung fu program to such an environment seems entirely workable

[KubanLink]

Originally posted by brothernumber9
The difference would be that the temple would be supported by patrons for buddhist services and practices. However I see that if the monks are reluctant or unqualified to run these services and duties that creates a hurdle that may not be pass-able. The image I had in mind was that there would be a buddhist temple for chan buddhist practices, the religeous practices would be overseen by buddhist monks versed in such services that may or may not have anything to do with shaolin but that would be accepting of having a shaolin martial monk in residence. The martial monk if unqualified or not confident enough to oversea some of the religeous aspects could continue to learn from the more learned one(s) and to a religeous side of things serve as somewhat of an apprentice or junior.
I say they would run off of "donations" but I don't mean that people would just come in at their whim and drop money in a bucket or bag or leave in front of a worship area. All services would imply a "donation" fee that would be based on who and how many one would request for particular service(s) and how much they could afford in an arrangement with the monk(s) and or lay people. I haven't been to many buddhist temples, particularly chan. but of the one's I have been to there are some activities, lanquage programs, music programs, dance programs, chanting, etc taught by the monks or lay affiliates that have developed into fixture like curriculums there that have attracted more and more patrons of all ages even though that is not what they were originated for. My final point being to add a kung fu program to such an environment seems entirely workable

Gene: He has a point. In New York, there are several buddhist (mostly Tibetan, I notice) that have centers that offer meditaiton class, language classes, dharma talks and the like for a small donation fee. Some even have what appear to be very organized training programs and charge a seemingly heft price for them. It seems to work and sustain the organization. Check out Rigpa organization www.rigpa.org/newyork/rny_home.htm or Shambhala http://newyork.shambhala.org/ The Shaolin masters need to start thinking outside the box--USA, show me the dividends style.

[blooming lotus]

how can a monk NOT be qualified to run "service" :rolleyes: alot of folks in western communities just don't want to the buddhist apects of shaolin kungfu...If the fighting art is the best way they can perpetuate awareness...for now, unless you're prepared to pack up and go to China, yu just gotta take what you can get....as for opening all these fabulous temples....are you yuorself preparred to put in the work to raise the funds and create an operational sangha?? All things in time, the dudes haven't even been circulating in the west for that long...we should be privilged and honoured to get what we do

[KubanLink]

bloominglotus: I agree with you, but the faster they learn how things work around here, the better for them and the better for those of us who want to learn form them.

[blooming lotus]

I think they know exactoly how, comparivtely, things work round there, which is why they're utilising the metrhods they deem fit....most of these guys have unviresity degrees etc, and are no even close to ignorant....and have spreading dharma and teaching kungfu in the depths of their hearts... don't be mistaken...they know exactlty what their visions are and why sometimes there is wisdom and progress in doing nothing......or ....what seems nothing...


can I get a doaist for a quote here!!!???

::cool:

[Tsingtao]

Not to knock anyone but did anyone see Shaolin Ulyesses(sp?). The only "monk" that I saw doing anything "religious like" was Guolin in that show. Everyone else just seemed like they were doing it for CMA and fame.

Just my $.02

I have great respect for all the monks/ex monks and don't mean them and or their students any disrespect.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by Tsingtao
Not to knock anyone but did anyone see Shaolin Ulyesses(sp?). The only "monk" that I saw doing anything "religious like" was Guolin in that show. Everyone else just seemed like they were doing it for CMA and fame.


thats what i hear though. a lot fo the local villager kids go there to hope one day achieve fame in hk as a movie star or outside china because of their shaolin status.

[Pk_StyLeZ]

how can a monk not be qualified for religious service..easy..ask li peng..he even said so himself..he was in shaolin for kung fu only...he dont know anything bout buddhism..mang he was so cool on shaolin ulyss!!!..wat a big balla!!!!!!!

[ninja]

What does it matter? What's Buddhism anyway? Li Peng does not believe in being a fanatic about religion or rules. Just because Guolin stresses the more ceremonial aspects of Chan doesn't meen he is anymore or less of a Buddhist. Li Peng holds beads in his hand all throughout class counting them or doing what he does. But he doesn't push this kind of activity on anyone else. We meditate at the end of each class, but it he doesn't make a big deal out of it. "Just sit slowly and relax yourself, don't think about anything", he says. So please don't think that just because a person say's that he doesn't no anything about Buddhism that he means this literally.

[GeneChing]

Not to knock anyone but did anyone see Shaolin Ulyesses(sp?). Check the credits - you'll find my name.

[Tsingtao]

Gene- Yes I know you were part of the production. What do you think about the production and how the monks were portrayed?

[KubanLink]

I hav enot seen it yet, but I emailed them and they said that dvd is coming out in the summer.

I can't wait to see it. Has anyone found it on limewire?

[dimmakseminar]

Dear Mr. KubanLink:

Perhaps you could ask some of the senior students at Hengxin's school for a copy of the tape. Certainly they would share with you. Hengxin does a few amazing sequences in the show.

Sincerely,

dimmakseminar

[Pk_StyLeZ]

omg...my post offended u??..i said li peng was cool for saying it..lolz..i personnaly dont giv a **** bout a shaolin monk knowing buddhism or not..im there for da kung fu..lolz..mang people get offended so easily these days....


Originally posted by ninja
What does it matter? What's Buddhism anyway? Li Peng does not believe in being a fanatic about religion or rules. Just because Guolin stresses the more ceremonial aspects of Chan doesn't meen he is anymore or less of a Buddhist. Li Peng holds beads in his hand all throughout class counting them or doing what he does. But he doesn't push this kind of activity on anyone else. We meditate at the end of each class, but it he doesn't make a big deal out of it. "Just sit slowly and relax yourself, don't think about anything", he says. So please don't think that just because a person say's that he doesn't no anything about Buddhism that he means this literally.

[xiao]

Little update...more to come

shaolin competition (http://www.americaneuropeanshaolin.com/html/competitionpage.htm)

[blooming lotus]

:rolleyes: at opinionated ignorance

kungfu is kungfu and buddhism is buddhism...but when you're talking shaolin/chan, it's hard to understand or gain proficiency in one without knowing the other side of the coin.....

what ever ...enjoy your fu

[norther practitioner]

Tsingtao.. do a search, the ulysses has been discussed several times.

[GeneChing]

I actually broke with the production at the time because I didn't like the way it was going. There was too much fabrication and I felt the disciples were being mocked. Also I thought they did a great disservice using the effects that covered up the kung fu. Now that some time has passed, I'm less critical of it and see it more for it's attempt at something novel. The DVD is coming out, with added tracks, so I'll be interested to see it.

[norther practitioner]

The open hand forms category consists of:

1. Lian Huan Quan

2. Xiao Hong Quan

3. Lohan Quan

4. Zhao Young Quan

5. Tongbei Quan


I think thats what a lot of people were waiting to hear.

[blooming lotus]

sounds good to me :D :D :D

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted on americaneuropeanshaolin.com
4) Note that screaming or making a menacing face will not get you any points at all. HAHAHHAHA

[norther practitioner]

I thought that was hillarious too....

So, no extreme kartate guys...:D

[GeneChing]

...how many people here know those five forms? I know Xiaohong and Tongbei - I learned two of the Lohan forms, but I'd have to dust them off.

[MasterKiller]

I only have Tongbei....

[Shaolinlueb]

i have none of them unless lohan eagle claw counts :o jk.

i heard my sihing talk about tongbie though.

[norther practitioner]

4. Zhao Young Quan

Which form is that?

I don't have any of them really. I started learning xiao hong chuan when I was leaving NY. I could prob. pick it up in a weekend for choreography perposes, then at least two or three more life times to get to the second and third level techniques.:D

[oasis]

i've been learning lohan shibashou :D
other classmates have another lohan, lian huan quan, and xiao hong quan. tong bei hasn't been taught out yet.

i know the judges are expecting variations in forms, but what about something like lohan shibashou compared to the xiao and da lohans? i'm guessing that will be the broadest category...

[Pk_StyLeZ]

i know all 5..=)
really rusty at da lohan one though

and whats wrong wit screaming??...didnt u watch wheel of life??..those guys were screaming like crazy..=D =D

screaming is cool!!!!!!!

[norther practitioner]

I've seen different versions of each of I think four different songshan lohan forms.

[GeneChing]

...I learned the small and middle Lohan, but they're pretty rough. I just remember it having a lot of stuff I could really get. I'm curious how that Lohan section will go.

As for variation, that's always an issue. Xiaohong has a lot of variation. The internal temple version is really different than what most people are used to seeing. But I don't forsee that being too much of a problem - it's only the external movements that vary. In general at tournaments, you're judged more on your energy than the actual moves themselves.

[xiao]

well...i know them all..hahahahaahaaaa

[xiao]

You can find some more info and clips about some forms
here (http://www.americaneuropeanshaolin.com/html/vids.htm)

[mortal]

I know them all except zhao young. I know 3 different xiaohong quans. I'll probably do the traditional one with all the elbows.

I am currently learning Damo sword. Can't wait to see who could really bust out in the straight sword category.

Gene are you competing?

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by xiao
You can find some more info and clips about some forms
here (http://www.americaneuropeanshaolin.com/html/vids.htm)

LOL:p

...who'd've guessed ;) :D

[GeneChing]

I retired from competition in '95 after I came back from Shaolin. Once I saw what they had, it all seemed kind of pointless to me. It was the end of a lackluster competitive career that lasted more than a decade.

As for my role in this event, as mentioned earlier, Lipeng has asked me to judge, which is a role I generally balk at. When I go to tournaments to cover them for the magazine, I don't have the luxury to do much else. It's work. It's really hard to obsever the tournament when your deeply involved in it. However, since I'm Shaolin family and since I have great respect for Lipeng, I will honor his request if he presses me.

[blooming lotus]

but we'll get our article right??:D









;) love your work Gene ....love your work:p lol

[GeneChing]

...it's how I earn my daily bread...

[blooming lotus]

....and don't you deserve it :D :cool: :D

[Shaolinlueb]

gene is kung fu magazine. without him it would be like .....inside kung fu.

[GeneChing]

Kung Fu Tai Chi is a team, I'm just a player. I might take more credit for the Shaolin specials, since that's my forte and my main filed of research. But the magazine is many people - Gigi Oh, our publisher, is critical. Our graphic team, our website team, and of course, our wonderful frelance writers - everyone is necessary.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by GeneChing
Kung Fu Tai Chi is a team, I'm just a player. I might take more credit for the Shaolin specials, since that's my forte and my main filed of research. But the magazine is many people - Gigi Oh, our publisher, is critical. Our graphic team, our website team, and of course, our wonderful frelance writers - everyone is necessary.

yeah everyone does a great job with the mag and I enjoy it every month.

[GeneChing]

I enjoy it every month You mean every other month, don't you?

[norther practitioner]

Excuse him Gene, he's a little slow, it takes him the full two months to read an issue.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by norther practitioner
Excuse him Gene, he's a little slow, it takes him the full two months to read an issue.

yeah it does. :o

i forgot it was bi monthly. LOL goes to show you how little i get out. other than work and kung fu. LOL

[GeneChing]

... just wanted to be sure we're on the same page of the same magazine. You'd be amazed how much mail we get for IKF. Strangely, we get a lot of mail for David Carridine. Seriously. :rolleyes:

I wonder if David will show up at Lipeng's tournament... :p

[Pk_StyLeZ]

wat are going to be age categories??