Southern Mantis versus Hung Gar

[travelsbyknight]

I recently heard a story that Grandmaster Lam Sang(southern mantis) challenged Lam Sai Wing(hung gar) and won. The story goes that Lam Sang, in his prime, challenged Lam Sai Wing, who was an old man, and beat the hell out of him.

Years later, Lam Sang regretted doing this. Anyone know more?

[once ronin]

did lam sang give a date and place this happened?

[hakka jai]

The stories that i've heard about Lum sang's mantis / fighting that it wasn't up to much, what i've been told by the Hakka elders in the Hakka arts. i know this is going cause a up roar in the Jook lum in the States but when are these guys goinigng to realise that their version is nothing more than a mish mash of stuff with mantis bits thrown in for good measure. If you want learn real mantis ,try going back to S.E. Asia, U.k. & Down Under.



Cheers
:)

[David Jamieson]

lemme get this straight, the same lam sang who beat up bruce lee also beat up lam sai wing?

wow, is it possible that lam sang is some kinda immortal?

[rfbrown3]

Dibs on the ears!

[Sam]

Yes Grand Master Lam Sang was all those things and more. When he was alive no one questioned his ability (mainland, Hong Kong, USA) Lam Sifu's Kwong Sai Jook Lum Gee Tong Long Pai is different and unique from the rest because he was the inheritor Jong Fa and only one to learn the Dim Mak 108 and Hei gung. Let them all talk because hands will tell and there are some who have the lineage art that are not known.

[travelsbyknight]

Is it ever possible for any of you to read the origional post before answering? That might be a good idea. I was inquiring about the ONE fight between the two masters...not whether he beat up Bruce Lee or whether he's immortal.

[Je Lei Sifu]

I have heard that story in the past. Lam Sang was supposed to be around 18 or 19 years old and Lam Sai Wing was in his 70s. This was reported in an old issue of inside kung fu magazine. Lam Sang was said to feel bad about this fight. It is said that he felt as though he took advantage of an old man. Lam Sai Wing supposed to have stop accepting challenges after this incident. If this story is true, it shows that Lam Sai Wing, dispite his advanced age was willing to take on anyone. Props goes to Lam Sai Wing.

Peace

Jerry Battle.

[Sam]

Speaking of fighting anyone at an advanced age Grand Master Lam Sang was challenged by a Choy Lay Fut master half his age (Lam Sifu was in his 70's). The argument ended up outside the Hip Sing in Chinatown. The CLF Master attacked Lam Sifu who countered with a soft touch on the CLF Masters chest. The CLF Master ended up convulsing on the floor. They called for an ambulance and Lam Sifu never spoke about it again. The story was told by on by eye witnesses.

[SiuHung]

Originally posted by Sam
Speaking of fighting anyone at an advanced age Grand Master Lam Sang was challenged by a Choy Lay Fut master half his age (Lam Sifu was in his 70's). The argument ended up outside the Hip Sing in Chinatown. The CLF Master attacked Lam Sifu who countered with a soft touch on the CLF Masters chest. The CLF Master ended up convulsing on the floor. They called for an ambulance and Lam Sifu never spoke about it again. The story was told by on by eye witnesses.

Wow, sounds cool. Any of his students or students of any of subsequent generations been able to publically replicate this amazing ability? Mike

[Sam]

There is only one that I know of and he won't even speak of it.

[travelsbyknight]

They say that Gin Foon Mark's hands are better than Lam's.

[Sam]

Ho Dunn was better than Mark Foon and neither of them were even close to Grand Master Lam Sang in his prime or old.

[travelsbyknight]

I've heard differently. I heard that NYC Chinatown will never see a better fighter than Gin Foon Mark...that Gin Foon Mark's shock power surpassed even the old man's.

HO Dun Chin passed away...so we even if his hand was better than Mark's...it's not anymore.

[Tit Sa]

Oh jeez...

Too bad Lam Sang's inheritor who can down people with a single soft touch, won't replicate it against Wandelei Silva, Rickson Gracie, Sakuraba...

Those fools who beat each other using external strength would finally realize how powerful the "real " chinese martial arts are.

Not to mention the finacial gains along with having hundreds of students knocking on your door. He could finally raise the system of southern mantis to #1 in the world, where it belongs.

It's ashame he would rather sit behind "closed doors" in some basement in chinatown NYC, sipping tea, on the threshold of poverty, telling tales of yester years to a handful of students who listen without question,....

Just to keep the system's "integrity" true.

[jo]

The hand of Lum Sang is not for everyone. There was a reason Lam took in small groups. Jook Lum cannot be taught "en-masse" like Karate. Even if one who posesses high skill wants to transmit it to another who is willing, there is a high percentage that much will be lost. Each generation has less and less time to train, Lam was with Lee Siem 24/7 for period of years, Mark and his classmates worked long hours in the coffee shop and practiced every night for a few hours. As Lam got older, he spent less time with his students. Lam's kungfu was his own, based on the "traditional" Jook Lum. Each of those who understand the priciples of the system, principles which go against human nature and typical reations, can adapt and use them in cooperation with their body type will have a different hand from each other. If Lam was five foot ten and 200 pounds, he would not have the same skill and ability. Those "who would be Lam" are practicing in vain as everyone is different, each unique, yet all can be part of the same pai by principle. Gin Foon Mark was quick (and still is), Chin Ho Dun was soft like water but hit like a mule. The Chins, Norman and Milton were a "Mutt & Jeff" couple, Norman being six foot and Milton five foot four, yet they were partners under Ho Dun. They understood that they could not be like Lam, they had to take what was given to them and then make the gungfu thier own.

[SiuHung]

Originally posted by jo
[B]The hand of Lum Sang is not for everyone. There was a reason Lam took in small groups. Jook Lum cannot be taught "en-masse" like Karate. Even if one who posesses high skill wants to transmit it to another who is willing, there is a high percentage that much will be lost. Each generation has less and less time to train...blah blah blah...

So you're saying that only a priviledged few will ever accomplish a high level of training in Jook Lum? Wouldn't it be nice if these secretive, select few would step forward and demonstrate their incredibly complex and difficult to fully learn system before its lost.
Sounds like baloney. But hey, all systems have thier larger than life past generation worship themes.
Mike

[Yum Cha]

Squillion dollar bounty on one touch death, no-touch knock out, laser beams of chi from the third eye....

But, beyond the fact or fiction of the great masters and their legendary exploits, what is more notable is the arguments poised in disbelief:

"Why not just show everybody the secret?"

"It must be lies because if they had something special, they would have sold it for lots of MONEY."

"If its so good, they should have taught everybody so the art would not be lost."

"If its so good, how come they won't fight ________ . (Joe Lewis, Muhammed Ali, Rickson Gracie, Steve Irwin, Buzz Lightyear...fill in the blank based upon age and super hero of choice...).

The fact that commercial concerns are beyond some individuals is incomprehensible; the desire to remain out of the spotlight a mental illness?

Just as a student may search a lifetime for a true Master, likewise a Master may teach a lifetime in search on that one worthy disciple. Show who??

Fundamental to many martial arts is the concept of selectivity, even secrecy. You don't want your enemy to know your hand, you want to know his.

Teach a thug, watch him thug about for a couple of years you you'll understand the saying "the sins of the student fall upon the shoulders of the Master."

I know of 3 of my Si-Suk in Guangzhou who have closed their hands because their students have done ill with the art and they can't bear the guilt. They believe the time for the skill has passed, and the hand should likewise.

I realise in this modern society, its a fee for service mentality. Martial arts are sport in the modern era. It wasn't always that way, and in the not to distant past. People lived the life of a martial artist, full time, in a feudal society. Even today, some cling to the old traditions for their own reward.

There is more, and in that world the costs are unredeemable, as the rewards are beyond measure, and market value is a meaningless concept obscured instead by issues of honour, dedication, devotion and morality.

There was a time when Sifu never owed his students, the students only ever owed Sifu. Like a Son or daughter owes their Father.

So, doubt the Masters if you will, search within your own study for the truth or falsehood of their alleged extraordinary ability. Be skeptical, but don't think that fame and a few taels of silver are the only measure of mastery or even that mastery in itself is a reward.

There is a saying, "The only thing you know about those who claim to be God's chosen few is that they most assuredly are not."

How many of you guys have ever spoken with a black ops professional, a counter insurgent, a sniper or other trained professional killer? Ask them to show you some of their secrets and see what you get.

[Lowlynobody]

Now THAT was a good post! :)

[TAO YIN]

Excellent post Yum Cha, I agree with you on the points that you make.



Still though, its dammn annoying to hear the secretive tales of........


"Master X was supreme, unmatchable, and godlike...... His student (s) is good; but his student (s) doesn't posess the true skill or the knowledge of Supreme Master X......

You (any martial artist hungry for knowledge that is) can learn from Master X's last closed door student. You can seek Master X's student out and ask him with open rice hands to teach you, but your efforts will be in vain and hopeless. Your efforts will be in vain because, you will never be as good as Master X's student for one, and therefore you will never, ever reach the same level as Master X, never, ever, ever. And, not only will you never reach either Master X's level, or his student's level, but you will also never be able to learn all of the (true hidden secrets) of Master X."



I mean, these guys were and are supposedly teachers. If I teach, and don't produce a student that knows everything I do (in his own way of course), and a whole lot more, then I haven't done my job as a teacher, at all, and then the art turns into a circus. Plus, the whole idea goes against reason totally.

If a human has reason, and in this case desire, he or she has total ability to learn from another human. Kung Fu people can get as mystic as they want, but in the end it comes back to the physical, scientific, ways of the human body. These rules are definite. They can be bent, not broken. The idea of mind of matter is one thing. But the idea of mind over reality is absurd. It's dogmatic, and false.


It's kinda like,

"CLC was the best. He was unsurpassable, undefeatable. CLC painstakingly taught Joe everything he knew (of course while Joe payed him hard earned money no less). Now Joe is good,,, but Joe can't begin to compare to Undefeatable Martial God CLC. You can learn from Joe, but you will be wasting your time. You'll never reach Joe's level, and of course, you will never, ever reach CLC's level. But that is ok though, you can still pay Joe, and dream of never reaching his level, or CLCs."


Oh back on topic. What pressure point did Lum Sang hit? Did Lum Sang hit the Choy Lee Fat guy in the Liver 14 point? If he did (it could have been other points too of course), and he did so very precisely, and the Choy Lee Fat guy possibly wasn't expecting it, or the shot was real clean, this could definetely cause the Choy Lee Fat guy to fall down and go into convulsions. Dim Mak equals pressure point.....ha

TAO YIN

[Just a Guy]

Yum Cha,

I registered on this forum simply to say, "bravo."

PM me a mailing address if you would - a few months from now, I would like to send you a gift.


I also agree that those who prance about worshipping dead masters are pretty annoying. The martial arts world is full of egos being crushed under their own weight, and most of those who aren't busy being so crushed are busy inflating those who are.

What's the answer?

[Lowlynobody]

Death :eek:


Hey Tao Yin, what up from Queenstown NZ! :cool:

[Sam]

It's funny that the same people that are annoyed that the old masters are revered are the same ones who blindly worship Bruce Lee. Grand Master Lam Sang was revered by the Freemason and Hip Sing in NYC Chinatown. He was the real thing and one of the last of his kind.

[Tit Sa]

Yum Cha-

Not exactly sure what your point is, but I have met a Special Forces operator that just came back from Afghanistan about a month or two ago.

He was quick to point out, even without me asking, it is all BS, you were in the service before (meaning me). They put on pants one leg at a time, they are human, they have yet to defy gravity, they are scared when outnumbered....it is only the movies that makes them larger than life.

But then again he was talking to me and not "mr john doe front porch" whom he has to perpetuate an image to.

jo-

For what BS reason kung fu cannot be taught "en mass"?

That is just an excuse for having no students because your spending most of your time talking about how deadly your skills are and not having the balls to go out and show it.

Ask yourself what is the purpose of being a inheritor of the system?

Is it to pick that one worthy student to teach everything to? Well, if that is your method and it, as you say is dying off with each generation then it is obviously a sucky method to transmit. And he is doing a disservice to your style and to the whole purpose of being a teacher.

Where was Lam and his soft touching students in the 70's when the Thai boxers went to HK and embarrassed the sh!t out of kungfu and the chinese?

sipping tea in the basement of his kwoon, telling tall tales of unverified heroism.

Where was Lam sang and his soft touching students in the 70's when Oyama's? karate guys went to HK and did the same thing as the Thai boxers?

sipping tea in the basement of his kwoon, telling tall tales of unverified heroism.

Even Cheung Lai Chun, Lam sai Wing, Jow Lung or is it Jow Biu? fought challenge matches out in public. Much like the Gracies of today.

[jo]

Originally posted by SiuHung


So you're saying that only a priviledged few will ever accomplish a high level of training in Jook Lum? Wouldn't it be nice if these secretive, select few would step forward and demonstrate their incredibly complex and difficult to fully learn system before its lost.
Sounds like baloney. But hey, all systems have thier larger than life past generation worship themes.
Mike

Do you dispute that in today's society there is less time to train than in the past? Do you train five days a week for at least four hours a day after working a twelve hour workday like Mark Foon and his group did? And don't forget Mark was already a high level man of White Crane with a load of experience in Hung Gar before he took up Jook Lum. In fact, Lam did not teach anyone who did not have any MA experience! Those are facts, not fiction or "worship".

Mike, are you a teacher? Can you put ALL your skills into another person? Have you tried?

Jook Lum will not die today or tomorow. It WILL diminish, like most of the "old school" systems, as the methods of training are forgotten or not kept up to par as the time for training lessens with each generation. The real secret of Jook Lum is in the basics of the 3 and 18. But non-Hakka want the flash and splash of fancy moves, spinning backfists and high kicks. They are deluded by glitter and ignorant to the fact the most basic tenet of Jook Lum is balance. And balance comes from hard work on the basics. And in todays world, nobody wants to practice the basics. Americans want to fly before they can walk.

The Masters of Jook Lum are not supermen, but they have the ability to coordinate body/mind/spirit in a way that fundamentally goes against "natural reactions" and that is what gives them the edge. When most would pull, they push. When most would retreat, they advance. If you every saw high-level Jook Lum it would look like.....nothing special at all. :-) Thats because they put countless hours into the BASICS. And as we all know the basics are "for beginners"......hehehe! ;-)

[jo]

TIT- "For what BS reason kung fu cannot be taught "en mass"? "

I did not say kung fu. I said jook Lum,

Let me put it to you in Western terms.
There are many schools where you can learn to be a "race car driver", but how many of these guys gets to drive NASCAR? At some point the superior student has to be "taken in" by an experienced professional and taught one-on-one, groomed and nurtured in the nuances of the sport. There are THOUSANDS of "race car drivers" but only fourty three suit up each Sunday to race NASCAR NEXTEL cup.

In Eastern terms, the Hakka arts are close-range combat systems which depend of "feeling", "borrowing" and "redirecting" the power of one's advisary. This has to be taught one-on-one. Its NOT about the forms, or breaking inanimate objects.

TIT- "That is just an excuse for having no students because your spending most of your time talking about how deadly your skills are and not having the balls to go out and show it."

Ummmmm....just who, exactly, has "no students"??????
How many students do you have?

TIT- "Ask yourself what is the purpose of being a inheritor of the system? "

When did I ever mention the bullhockey of a single inheritor?

TIT- "Is it to pick that one worthy student to teach everything to? Well, if that is your method and it, as you say is dying off with each generation then it is obviously a sucky method to transmit. And he is doing a disservice to your style and to the whole purpose of being a teacher."

AGAIN! When did I ever mention the bullhockey of a single inheritor?

TIT- "Where was Lam and his soft touching students in the 70's when the Thai boxers went to HK and embarrassed the sh!t out of kungfu and the chinese? sipping tea in the basement of his kwoon, telling tall tales of unverified heroism." Where was Lam sang and his soft touching students in the 70's when Oyama's? karate guys went to HK and did the same thing as the Thai boxers?"

Lam was here in NYC. Did anyone ever say Lam was responsible for the entire gung-fu community in Hong Kong? And where did I ever say Lam was a "soft touch" guy? He was small and could hit like a much bigger man. His softness was manifest in the sophistication of his hand, his hands were hard to feel....until he hit you.

I will tell you this, NOBODY ever went to Lee Kok Leung's Jook Lum School in Sam Shui Po or Yip Shui's Chow Gar School in Mong Kok and kicked their a$$es.

TIT- "Even Cheung Lai Chun, Lam sai Wing, Jow Lung or is it Jow Biu? fought challenge matches out in public. Much like the Gracies of today."

Lam had more than his share of fights in the streets of Chinatown, not in arenas with rules. ;-)

Your lack of even the most basic knowledge of the things you natter on about, compounded with your interjection of irrelevant statements shows what level you are on.

The level of ignorance.

[SiuHung]

Originally posted by jo


1)Do you dispute that in today's society there is less time to train than in the past?

2)Mike, are you a teacher? Can you put ALL your skills into another person? Have you tried?

3)Jook Lum will not die today or tomorow. It WILL diminish, like most of the "old school" systems, as the methods of training are forgotten or not kept up to par as the time for training lessens with each generation.

4)But non-Hakka want the flash and splash of fancy moves, spinning backfists and high kicks. They are deluded by glitter and ignorant to the fact the most basic tenet of Jook Lum is balance.

5)And balance comes from hard work on the basics. And in todays world, nobody wants to practice the basics. Americans want to fly before they can walk.

6)The Masters of Jook Lum are not supermen, but they have the ability to coordinate body/mind/spirit in a way that fundamentally goes against "natural reactions" and that is what gives them the edge. When most would pull, they push.

1) Anyone can train as much as they want to. It's the individual. Are you saying that in the past people didn't have jobs and families?

2) I am a teacher. I can and do teach everything I know to the best of my ability. No B.s., no silly superpower expectations, no silly costumes, and everything is hands on. My students benefit from this approach, but ultimately, as I've told them, it is their own effort that will produce thier desired results.

3) Sad. It doesn't have to. Poor outlook.

4) B.S.!!! Non-hakka want flash? Deluded by glitter? Are you smoking crack? Where did you get that bit of misinformation?

5) Not everyone is like that. But to some extent I agree with you here. Commercialism has had its effects on many a fighting system.

6) More stylistic hero worhsip. Any fighting system...my bias being for CMA, can produce a great fighter. But it is the individual more so than even the teacher who will determine just how good of a fighter they become... But to suggest that Jook Lum has some "edge" over other systems is to dive into the kind of style-centric garbage that promotes silly internet forum debates over who's better than who. Quite simply go to any school and you will here the same "our style has blah blah advantages over others...". Are you saying that Jook Lum is that much better than other systems? If you are, I'm sure that there are plenty of CMA practitoners out there that would be glad to debate that with you, not to mention the MMA crowd.
Mike

[Yum Cha]

Hi Guys,
Thanks for the nods, I'm humbled.

Tao Yin
Of course you make a good point. People talk sh1t in so many arenas, its no surprise that the same is true in Martial Arts, traditional, modern, whatever. One of the great lessons I learned from my journey is self-reliance, the ability to trust myself and to rely on myself to make decisions. I have found that within every mystical legend is often one tiny grain of truth, beneath the exaggeration, beneath the super-natural allegations. Finding that, and what it means to me is something that didn't come from story telling but from training, and making my own physical investigations. Mind you, not replicating these things in fact, but simply gaining a physical or intellectual understanding for the basis of these claims, and coming to understand where the legendary skills, or the exaggeration came from, and why the stories formed around them. Mind you, only as far as my own art is concerned, naturally.

I think the lesson is well stated on the Pak Mei alter, "Sifu can teach you the Tiger and Leopard, but only the immortals can teach you the true essence of Pak Mei Kung Fu." Understanding the immortals is a personal journey as any Hakka art practitioner comes to understand.

So, in a nutshell, It is my belief that Sifu does not produce the student - a road map is not the same as a destination. It is not water poured from one cup to another, with every spill lost forever in the transmission.

Just a guy,
I think you answered your own question. Wouldn't you agree?

Tit Sa,
You helped me make my point. Thanks. My experience is these modern day "masters" of death and destruction find no romance in its pursuit, and are simply human beings who on occasion do extraordinary things, and sometimes pay for it from their hearts and minds a heavy toll that only they can understand. When good men confront evil, from within or without, it is an expensive proposition.

[Just a Guy]

Originally posted by Sam
It's funny that the same people that are annoyed that the old masters are revered are the same ones who blindly worship Bruce Lee.

Sometimes true, sometimes not. There are plenty of people in our tradition who have earned respect, but that is all. To my knowledge, neither Lee nor Lam sought "worship," and it would be a disservice to either of them to adopt that attitude.

Tit Sa - I do not understand why you have such venom towards Lam? Is it because he failed in his Confucian "duty" to travel to HK to beat people up? It may be hard to believe, but in some martial traditions, contests, "challenge matches", and other ego-stroking activities are avoided (as well as harming others for no good reason). The art is pursued for self-defense skills, and for personal rewards such as better health and spiritual development. This does not mean that stylists in those traditions do not have skills - they may train very hard and very pragmatically.

On the relative merits of styles versus individuals who train in those styles, consider that techniques and styles in dynastic China constituted what we now think of as military technology. Why were some schools so incredibly secretive? It is because a highly adept fighter can learn new techniques and principles by viewing another's gung fu on as little as a single occasion. So, to keep the technological edge, many schools were secretive and did not display their skills, regardless of whether they were Buddhists sworn to only use their gung fu in self-defense or not.

I am not prepared to say that SPM is a "better" style than any other, for it truly does depend upon the individual. But compare, if you will, Hung Gar and Tae Kwon Do. Take two stylists of equal advancement in their respective styles and have them fight. Repeat with stylists at all skill levels across both arts. Again, I wouldn't say that Hung Gar is a "better" style than TKD, but having done something very much like this, I will say that the results support the view that some styles contain advances in martial science that other styles lack.

[Jook Lum]

Thank you Yum Cha,Jo,Just a guy and Sam for the good posts
and the common sense they also contain concerning lam and his
spm pai.

[Tit Sa]

jo-

Your NASCAR anology proves my point. A gifted person should get the special attention to excel. This can be said about ANYTHING, karate, jiujitsu, bakmei, NASCAR, hung ga.....

So why all the secrecy? Borrowing, feel, etc. these aren't "alien" terms to any style of martial arts. karatekas, judokas, BJJ, Thai boxers, NASCAR racers, accomplish the same level of skill in their arts without all the "special rules fanfare".

And somehow Jook Lum, in particular Lam Sang's jook Lum is special?

I don't have any students because I don't teach. I spend my time learning from people who has something to show, and show everything out in the open, who don't spend their time telling unverifiable stories about how his teacher beat up so and so, with the secret dim mak touch.

You call me ignorant, but when was the last time Lam Sang and his special style of Jook Lum SPM produced any fighter that had more than just stories to tell about their sifu?

Just a Guy-

I have no venom against Lam Sang or SPM at all! Believe me when I say this. In fact I think SPM is a great style and i heard Lam Sang was a very accomplished kungfu sifu too.

But the problem is when people start spinning stories about, death touches, beating so and so the famous sifu, how their style is special and can only be learned in this fashion....etc. You get my point.

As far as you say "other ego -stroking activities are avoided", well, then why even tell stories about how you beat up so and so. Except to stroke your own ego.

Why tell stories about how good your sifu and grandmaster is or was? Except to stroke your own ego.

And when public challege matches came (ie Gracies, Oyama..)why weren't they there? Was it to save their own ego? because you have everything to gain by winning and you can even add another story to your style.

I know traditional CMA, I learned it too, and still consider myself a CMAtist above everything, and when people deem stories of the past are more relevant than events in the present I think their is a problem.

Ego/pride is the problem and if you can't let go of your ego you will never improve.

While JMA and the relative newcomer Brazilian MA, are improving their arts by doing, "traditional" CMA are busy talking.

[Chin Chung Cao]

Why all the secretiveness? The most obvious reason would be to keep it from people with out the proper mind set. My Sifu has told me many time's that, "If you are going to draw a gun and put a bullet in it you had best be prepared for the consequences. Martial arts taught without morality will only produce streetfighter's." Another reason is to insure that the art will be past down to someone who respect's it. To many system's are "mixed' with other styles creating a chop suey martial arts. You yourself, Tit Sa, admit that you dont have any student's, you spend your time " learning from people who have something to show, and show everything out in the open". So what you learn you keep to yourself, isn't that also a form of secretiveness? Lum's gung fu is special to all that have learned any of it, just as whatever gung fu/martial art you've been lucky to study is special to you. This hold's true of practitioner's in any system. And the storie's that upset you so much are also found in all style's, even your own teachers have their opinion's about other style's and their teacher's, more storie's. Unfourtunatly there are many people like you who have the mentality that because you, in your own little space and limited view, have never "saw" or "heard" of someone they couldn't possably be a true fighter. All system's produce many good fighter's that you and I have never heard off, but that dosn't change the fact that they exist. They may not have a "title" or "championship" to their name that you approve of, but it dosn't make them any less real. Yes, Lum has produced some scary talent, but because you haven't heard of them I suppose they could't exist? Henry Poo Yee comes to mind as a excellent fighter, he's almost 65 and his hand is still strong. His student, Paul Huber would be happy to have a little exchange with you to compare the realitive worth of the system, that way you could draw your own conclusion's based on real experiance. He will be in Huston for his Sifu's birthday March 5th and 6th, If your in the area drop in. If your really interested in increasing your knowledge and out look it would be a good opertunity for you and him.

[Tit Sa]

I keep it to myself because i don't teach. It doesn't mean if someone ask me I won't show it. Or that I will perpetuate the myth of secret techniques.

Yes, all teachers tell stories, and most of the time i don't really listen to them, unless I deem it worthy of attention. Especially when they talk about how grandmaster beat up the so and so famous kungfu guy or famous karate.....

I never said SPM is not a worthy system, in fact I said words to the contrary. Go back and look at my post.

[TAO YIN]

(Sighs)

Ching Chung Cao states:

"Why all the secretiveness? The most obvious reason would be to keep it from people with out the proper mind set. My Sifu has told me many time's that, "If you are going to draw a gun and put a bullet in it you had best be prepared for the consequences. Martial arts taught without morality will only produce streetfighter's.""

No offense mate, but BOOOOO!!!!!!!!!

This assumption is one of the most false, CLICHE', untruthful, ideas in the entire Martial Art community. Come on! Who goes out and gets in fight to the death streetfights every day? Even so called street fighters value their own lives somewhat... I mean, if you teach a person, from day one, the philosophy of "hand to hand, heart to heart, if you don't attack I won't start" ...and the person you teach this doesn't get it and turns into some super thug streetfighter...then you should have chosen someone more worthy to teach. Now lets look at this from the other angle. If a streetfighter comes to learn from you, and you can't teach him how to chill the fark out and be respectful, you're a "no good" teacher.

As a teacher, if you can't at least get across the philosophy of honor to someone, you shouldn't be teaching...

Anyways, my rant. Everything in the MA community is turning into one big mess of cliche' assumptions.

[travelsbyknight]

Let's get back to Lam Sang and his challenge to Lam Sai Wing. I want to know if there's any truth to this and where I could find information about it.

[Chin Chung Cao]

No offense taken"Mate", apparently you take thing's a little to literally. I wasn't talking about shooting people with a gun. The gun is an analogy for the human fist, the "bullet" is the phoenix eye. You can substitute any hand/foot formation you like. I never said anything about fight to the death street fight's, you injected that into it. Even the best of teacher's have had student's that turned bad on them, in the "old" days the Sifu would take back the gung fu from the student by destroying the muscle/tendon structure and in rare case's by killing them. The ability to get one's point across isn't a reflection on a teacher's skill or lack of. Just think back to your time spent in the public school system and the many teacher's you had. I'm pretty sure that many were unable to reach you or inspire you. Dosn't mean they were bad teacher's, they may have reached many other student's. Bottom line, we are all responsible for our own behavior. Don't blame it on poor Mom and Pop or the school system or your race, the system and any of a dozen more copouts. You know the deference between right and wrong, be a man/women and take responsibility for your actions.
And thats my rant, Mate" :)

[TAO YIN]

Mate,

What is taking things too literally in regards to an internet chat forum? In this case, I read your post, understood your analogy, or lack there of, and analytically replied. I didn't mention anything about your analogy. I didn't mention anything about loaded weapons, guns shots, or phoenix eyes. I aruged against your implied written statement.

Ching Chung Cao wrote the following:

"Even the best of teacher's have had student's that turned bad on them, in the "old" days the Sifu would take back the gung fu from the student by destroying the muscle/tendon structure and in rare case's by killing them."

I mean, read this back to yourself, from a literary standpoint.....


Let us not get bogged down in semantics however. If you will go back and re-read my previous post or the post before that, from a realistic standpoint, you will notice that every point I make is concretely straight forward.

bye mate,

TAO

[jo]

1) Yes they can, and......No.

2) Thats great to hear.

3) Sad, but its the truth IMHO.

4) The Paul Mitchell "Martial Arts Championships"....'nuff said. ;-)

5) Now that IS sad.

6) I never said Jook Lum is BETTER than other systems. Just different.

[Jook Lum]

It is not so much secrecy as quality control!

[TenTigers]

One of the main reasons that Jook lum hasn't flourished, from what I've been told, is for a few reasons;
one, it was not taught to non-Hakka-until recently
two, it was taught in fives-meaning that the Sifu would take on five disciples, this way two pairs of two working out and one with Sifu in rotation, so that everyone can feel his hands-Jook lum is taught by feeling, one on one, not en masse. Each of the five would in turn, take on five and down the line. This would work in a pyramid fashion-in theory, but only if each continues to teach, desires to teach, CAN teach, lives long enough to teach, etc, etc.
It wasn't until Mark Foon, and later Henry Poo Yee brought it out in the open that people even knew of its existance. Actually, Henry Poo Yee really made it mainstream-and caught alot of flak for it, both good and bad. My personal opinion is that it was a good thing because Jook lum might have died out. Of course like any art being taught publicly-there is the problem of quality control, and degeneration of the system due to too many unqualified teachers.
I also must take issue with the comment about Sifus Norman and Milton Chin being referred to as Mutt and Jeff. I think that was a disrespectful comment. I'm not sure if that was the intent, but they both have earned well deserved respect in the Chinese Martial Community (Mo-Lum) I believe their 'nicknames' were in fact "Thunder and Lightning" -two monikers that from what I've heard, were also well deserved.
Will there ever be another Lam Sang, Wong Fei-Hung, Tung Hai-Chuan? Who knows?
If you teach a thousand students, after ten years or so you might find a few that will stay with you long enough to transmit true knowledge to. Instead of the ones that show up when they feel like it, or practice sporadically, or quit after a few years, look for the ones that have been steadfast in their training year after year. Through the hard times as well as the easy times.They are the ones. Everyone else will simply pay the rent. Of course they will derive tremendous benefit from training. both physically, and mentally. But only the few will be in that 'inner circle' who will go the extra mile,push themselves. Look at Tiger Shullman-they claim that they have had five of their guys place in NHB tournaments. They have over 30 schools with at least 200 students in each, so out of 6,000 students, couldn't you find five hard-core, die-hards? It's a numbers thing.

[Just a Guy]

Good points, TenTigers.

Add to this the fact that many SPM teachers won't teach SPM until the prospective student is already extremely accomplished in another style, and it's easy to see why there aren't many competent SPM people out there.

However, Jow Gar (Hakka SPM) is a bit different from Jook Lum in that Jook Lum wasn't so restricted to Hakka. But Jook Lum was a temple tradition, and so restricted in other ways. Jow/Chow/Chu Gar is the Hakka variant, and they have recently opened their doors, just as some Jook Lum stylists have.

[jo]

Originally posted by TenTigers
I also must take issue with the comment about Sifus Norman and Milton Chin being referred to as Mutt and Jeff. I think that was a disrespectful comment.


I know you look up to Norman.
But then a lot of people do....because he is tall. :-)

BTW, do you who "Mutt and Jeff" were?

[SiuHung]

Originally posted by jo
[B]4) The Paul Mitchell "Martial Arts Championships"....'nuff said. ;-)



wtf...So you see this kind of crap and then say non-hakka like glitter and flash?

How much Hung ga, jow Ga, Choy Li Fut, Mok Ga, Fujian White Crane, etc... do you see in a competiton like that? None. Why, because that's a martial performance competition and there is no place there for a real fighting system. So please, do not have the impertinence to lump non-Hakka Southern style practitioners with that lot! I mean really, do you live in a jook Lum plastic bubble or something?
Mike

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by SiuHung


1) Anyone can train as much as they want to. It's the individual. Are you saying that in the past people didn't have jobs and families?

It's not so much an issue of time as it is how time is spent. They didn't have all of the distractions that we had, and also had a different attitude. However, time may have been a factor, considering the power of money these days. I usually train 2-3 hours a day, at least. I bet there were several people back in the day who put in more time than that.

6) More stylistic hero worhsip. Any fighting system...my bias being for CMA, can produce a great fighter. But it is the individual more so than even the teacher who will determine just how good of a fighter they become... But to suggest that Jook Lum has some "edge" over other systems is to dive into the kind of style-centric garbage that promotes silly internet forum debates over who's better than who. Quite simply go to any school and you will here the same "our style has blah blah advantages over others...". Are you saying that Jook Lum is that much better than other systems? If you are, I'm sure that there are plenty of CMA practitoners out there that would be glad to debate that with you, not to mention the MMA crowd.
Mike

It's not necessarily style-centric. There are arts that produce competent fighters than others. It's more of an issue of training methods though, not the style itself...

[TenTigers]

yep, I know who Mutt and Jeff were. I also know who Rube Goldberg was, so you can guess that I'm older than dirt! LOL
There are teachers out there who teach for the love of their art, the fact that they also make a dollar from it seems to upset only those who want a free ride or a hand out. They somehow feel that they are 'entitled', -to what, I have no idea. To these people, Many of these teachers might seem to charge alot for what may seem like a little. Some might 'string you along' with all sorts of 'doors' and levels. Did you know that these very same teachers that you so despise have also taken in very serious students-those with the desire and commitment to learn the entire art...These few students are those they have taken under their wing, so to speak. These students aren't all paying special fees, some not at all. Perhaps these Sifus are looking for something...'special' and have found it in these few. Perhaps the few haven't come along yet. Perhaps they never will. Sifus' lament, I suppose. You can idealistically say that one should teach everything and just put it all out there. But, there are certain things in Gung-Fu that can only be taught on a very personal one to one basis, with a huge commitment. (we're not talking about money, we're talking about Gung-Fu-time, effort, hard work, commitment) When you invest this much on a student and the student ends up being disloyal, or selfish, or greedy, or whathaveyou, you take a little more time and care in choosing your next student.
This is not an attack or a defense of anyone in particular, because it applies to many people, and many circumstances. I can not speak for anyone other than myself. I am only speaking from my own personal experience, both as a teacher, and as a student.

[TenTigers]

oh BTW-Jo - I did understand what you meant-it's just that the term Mutt and Jeff carries a derrogatory meaning in today's slang. I know you did not mean it as such, and my post wasn't directed towards you, but to those people who come out of the woodwork every once in awhile and try to sling mud. Not that I am the "Defender of the Old Guard" or anything, but you know as well as I, that these people sit on their haunches, waiting like vultures to attack, and tear down some pretty respected Sifus, because they themselves have felt personally slighted by them-usually due to their own greed, and seek to attack at every opportunity.

[yuanfen]

tit sa(?) sez:

You call me ignorant, but when was the last time Lam Sang and his special style of Jook Lum SPM produced any fighter that had more than just stories to tell about their sifu?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------Your generalized question may involve sampling error.
I have met an awesome CMAist for whom Lam Sang is a sigung.
Secrecy is not the best term. Apprenticeship is better.
For learning a top quality art or craft- proper apprenticeship is an invaluable tool.
Joy Chaudhuri

[Tit Sa]

Of course proper apprenticeship is required.

But hundreds of other styles produce top notch fighters without all the secrecy myth and "hooyaa" about can't teach en-mass, must be learned by feel....etc.

[jo]

Originally posted by Tit Sa
Of course proper apprenticeship is required.

But hundreds of other styles produce top notch fighters without all the secrecy myth and "hooyaa" about can't teach en-mass, must be learned by feel....etc.

You are 100% correct.

There are countless ways to fight, and thousands of schools one can attend if one wants to become a fighter.

[LionDancer]

My thanks to all who are looking after Sifu's name.

For those that are not accustomed, Sifu's Jook Lum Pai is a different style and method of CMA. Do not judge what you do not know likewise you will not be judged. Members of Sifu's pai are taught and trained differently than how other styles are taught. No one here is saying which is the better, just different. If it is because we call it 'different' that causes folks grief, then ask yourself this question: why are you fustrated because it is deemed different?

Answer: you have not learned other than the physical aspects of CMA.

JL...good to see ya....

[houstonwriter.c]

I think Poo Yee is a bad a$$--not to mention a really cool guy. And I have an honest question for anyone who might know; just curious with no agenda.

Why does his Southern Mantis look so different from other SPM here and abroad? I mean, at least to my ignorant eyes, it doesn't look a little different the way body styles or small lineage branches can color things.

To me it looks significantly different. Anyone know?

[David]

If you saw enough mantis and other Hakka hands, you'd see that they all share features and the differences make sense as interpretations and developments along particular paths followed by the advanced practitioners.

One method that works in a particular system may not be comprehensible in another because it is not possible to transplant single methods without adjusting the rest of the methods.

So long as it's cohesive and integrated, what's the problem?

Rgds,
David

[travelsbyknight]

This is about Lam Sang's fight with Lam Sai Wing. This is not a debate over whose mantis hand was/is better. Does anyone else but me see this young guy challenging the old guy as a problem? I don't want to hear any stories about "super" old men that can beat anyone because...in most cases a young man will beat a really old man.

David Chan Bong did something similar when he opened up his school RIGHT NEXT TO Frank Yee's school. Why would he do something like that?

[brothernumber9]

This David Chan Bong challenged Frank Yee?

[Chin Chung Cao]

For what it's worth, Lam Sang, later in his life said that he regretted the incident. Since both are dead it makes little sense to speculate on what did or didn't happen. As for young men challenging old men, it happens all the time. The strong prey on the weak, always have and proably always will. I wouldn't worry so much about past injustice, just look around, there is plenty happening in the world now.:(

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Tit Sa
So why all the secrecy? Borrowing, feel, etc. these aren't "alien" terms to any style of martial arts. karatekas, judokas, BJJ, Thai boxers, NASCAR racers, accomplish the same level of skill in their arts without all the "special rules fanfare".

true.

But the problem is when people start spinning stories about, death touches, beating so and so the famous sifu, how their style is special and can only be learned in this fashion....etc. You get my point.

As far as you say "other ego -stroking activities are avoided", well, then why even tell stories about how you beat up so and so. Except to stroke your own ego.

Why tell stories about how good your sifu and grandmaster is or was? Except to stroke your own ego.

It's not really ego stroking, IMO, more of piggy back riding. It's a means of giving a school validity. (I'm not saying that's what going on here, so no flames, anyone) Having an undefeated GM is not a reflection of you at all, because you don't necessarily have the skill that he had.

I know traditional CMA, I learned it too, and still consider myself a CMAtist above everything, and when people deem stories of the past are more relevant than events in the present I think their is a problem.

agreed.

[SimonW]

It seems typical of some Americans to equate being good at a fighting system to wanting to prove it for all the world to see. For those that cannot understand why a particular master didn't go out for a public match at every opportunity, get a life! Believe it or not some people don't have such a shallow attitude to martial arts and are not in it for the money and fame.

Real martial arts are not enough for some people and so they have to create or try to stir up their own little soap opera between the famous fighters of our time. For some, if you are more concerned about other peoples fighting ability, go watch a film or something instead of practising martial arts.

IMHO any country that has a Martial Arts Businessman or Martial Arts Millionaire magazine in circulation, then that country really should be banned from fighting arts!

[travelsbyknight]

The only problem with your argument is that a fight really did happen between Lam Sang and Lam Sai Wing.

[william sterlin]

Only true practioners have skills that no one knows about until the day their hands are tested and everyone is shocked. The true practioner watches and waits. All the rest like to impress with their knowledge and look like fools the day a third rate amatuer knocks them on their ass. I've seen this time and again. As far as I can see, real JL practioners let their teachings take root and advance simultaneously in mind, body, and spirit. They're not flashy and don't show off their skill. They are true people. The only need to fight is when the time arises, don't go around waving your banner or you will be challenged time and again. As far as the ultimate fighting is concerned, these people don't seem to be real intellectuals. Where will they be in the future if they still have one. Do they think that their fight mongering fans will always be there to support them. Nothing new, just an extreme form of adult cartoons with fans who support Jerry Springer TV. Hope they have good HMO's.