Dr. John Painter - some of his claims

[Harbinger]

On his website (The Last Master of Daoqiquan), there's a picture of two men in army uniform he claims to be Li Long Dao his teacher and Li Zhang Lai, Li Long Dao’s father taken in 1928.
If you check with his lineage chart Li Zhang Lai was born in 1850 and Li Long Dao in 1880. This would make Li Zhang Lai 78 and Li Long Dao 48, in the photo. Li Zhang Lai doesn't look 78 to me and what's more Chinese soldiers during the period Chiang Kai Shek was fighting the warlords (1926-1929) wore caps, not helmets even when going into battle. The photo in question is in fact a picture of two Japanese soldiers.

[Royal Dragon]

OOOOPPSSS!!!!!

[PHILBERT]

E-mail the guy and ask. Painter has been talked to death on the forums, go check out my response on the Internal forums.

[cerebus]

I have to say that the most ridiculous response that is constantly given when it's asserted that an instructor is misrepresenting himself is : "Why don't you just ask him yourself?" If he's being dishonest do you think he'll suddenly come clean just because Joe Schmoe asks him about it? If he wasn't going to stick to his story, he wouldn't likely have put it out there in the first place. Am I the only one who sees this or what?

[I Hate Ashida Kim]

I have to say that the most ridiculous response that is constantly given when it's asserted that an instructor is misrepresenting himself is : "Why don't you just ask him yourself?" If he's being dishonest do you think he'll suddenly come clean just because Joe Schmoe asks him about it? If he wasn't going to stick to his story, he wouldn't likely have put it out there in the first place. Am I the only one who sees this or what?

Absolutely. Look at Ashida Kim. People ask him if he's fake all the time (or they used to before he took down his message board), and he would never admit it. If I'm lying to everyone and you ask me if I'm lying I'm sure as hell not going to say "yes, I've been lying this whole time! Good work!"

So, the "why don't you ask him yourself" answer doesn't prove anything. Nice try, tho.

And someone linked to an old post from 2002 in the Internal Forum where he answered some questions and removed some photochopped pictures.

But did you notice there are still some photochopped pictures up on his site?

Look at the top one on this (http://www.ninedragonbaguazhang.com/calendar.htm) page.

A lot of stuff in that pic is photochopped, but for startes, the people in the background kicking have no shadows and look very 2 dimensional. Know why? Because they weren't in the picture originally.

Why would he have so many faked pictures on his site?

[PHILBERT]

Originally posted by cerebus
I have to say that the most ridiculous response that is constantly given when it's asserted that an instructor is misrepresenting himself is : "Why don't you just ask him yourself?" If he's being dishonest do you think he'll suddenly come clean just because Joe Schmoe asks him about it? If he wasn't going to stick to his story, he wouldn't likely have put it out there in the first place. Am I the only one who sees this or what?

You are relatively new here, so lemme say something.

1.) Dr. Painter has been talked to death on this forum.

2.) He is a member.

3.) He has posted defending himself.

4.) He has students who browse this forum.

5.) When I said e-mail him and ask, send the information that Harbinger gave about the soldiers.

And finally, Harbinger has 2 posts. On this board and on the Internal forum, and both are about Dr. Painter. People come on here all the time and do bashing towards someone they do not like, then disappear. Heck, Harbinger might not even return here. I remember there was a Painter thread a few months back (do a search) and the originator of the thread never returned to the thread to defend his position after getting the virtual smack down.

[Shaolinlueb]

ooooh that guy. yeah i saw a pic of him breaking handcuffs, i wouldnt mess with him.

[lkfmdc]

I don't know much about Bagua, I don't know much about Painter, but I once watched him roll hands with a so called "famous master" from China and Painter tied him in knots. Painter seems a controversial character, and maybe his lineage doesn't check out, but the fact he can use whatever the heck it is he does should count for something

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
I don't know much about Bagua, I don't know much about Painter, but I once watched him roll hands with a so called "famous master" from China and Painter tied him in knots. Painter seems a controversial character, and maybe his lineage doesn't check out, but the fact he can use whatever the heck it is he does should count for something

They say the proof is in the pudding. Lord knows I'm not one in a position to question one's abilities because of questionable lineage claims. :D

When did you see this demonstration?

[Kymus]

I learned Jiu Long Ba Gua Zhang from one of Dr. Painters students (Mr. David Briggs). He (Mr. Briggs) is good friends with a friend of mines Brother (Chris). Chris has been to numerous seminars and teachings at Dr. Painters Ba Gua farm/The Gompa. From what I hear, he's an excellent teacher, and very traditional. I personally have never met him, however if what I hear of him is true, he is very skilled. IMHO, a lot of skill helps to disprove false lineages, etc. Doesn't always mean that they are 100% true, but I think that if someone truly learned from their own devices, and not a master, it'd stick out pretty well.

[backbreaker]

I know nothing about this guy but I have one question basically. A good amount of people are saying he has fighting skills. And it seems that there is at least not much argument that he does bagua. A fairly large or at least vocal group has said his lineage is false and there is no such bagua lineage. So my question is- If he is not doing the bagua he thinks or says he is, what style is it? Yin Fu? Cheng ting hwa? Gao? Other? And if it is not bagua, then what does it most closely resemble? Is anyone here knowledgable in multiple bagua lineages?

[lkfmdc]

A lot of TCMA people are obsessed with lineage, and there are those who simply don't have a big lineage or even know it. I know a great Bagua line which has no verifiable lineage because one of the teachers was very secretive about his past because of the profession he was in.....

[backbreaker]

What lkfmdc says makes sense, since bagua was a bodygaurd art and may have been involved in some secret paranoid political stuff. Maybe a teacher had killed someone? ( deadly matial secrets:D ;) )

[lkfmdc]

or

deadly marital secrets :D

[SifuAbel]

Or

Deadly marital scents

[count]

or

Deadly marital sex.

[Judge Pen]

or

deadly martial secretions.

[lkfmdc]

oh my, look what I started! :rolleyes:

the answer is: "secret marital sex"

the question is: "what do Shaolin monks engage in after their kung fu classes...."

[count]

Or

Deadly martian sects.






LOL lkfmdc.:D

[Chinwoo-er]

Deadly marital lawsuits

is going to be the deadliest of all
I mean, you can lose your life's savings in one of those

[NoSecrets]

It seems to me this Dr. Painter is like Bok Nam Park, knows a little Ba Gua and tries to make a buck for a living, can you blaim him for trying to propagate his knowledge.

[lkfmdc]

got to love it when 3 post newbies with no profiles "suddenly" pop up to trash talk people ...... :rolleyes:

[MonkeySlap Too]

Yeah, the photo shop thing was certainly a critical error on JP's part - but I'm still hard pressed to put up with trolling. I thought that was an interesting story about the rolling hands - it goes to show you never can tell.

Met Painter once, after a 'masters meeting' at a Jeff Bolt tournament. He seemed like a really nice guy, and he agreed with my argument against the adoption of modern wushu as basic training for all styles. So, anybody who agrees with me, can't be all bad :D

[Indestructible]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
very secretive about his past because of the profession he was in.....

I'm thinking Triad.

[Ben Gash]

I once emailed Dr Painter for some information on a subject and I must say he was hugely polite and very forthcoming, even sending me some HUGE files.
Why use so many edited photos? It would appear that the photos weren't busy enough for his taste. Taking the photo shown as an example, it was for a training event, so he wanted to show groups of people training while also emphasising him.

[NoSecrets]

I'm not trash talking just stating the obvious.

[norther practitioner]

Whatever on that one photochopped pict.. not a big deal to me. I don't see too much of a problem using that one.. I don't know about the others if there are.

[red5angel]

of course NP you have been known to photoshop david hasslehoffs head onto your body to impress the chicks so I wouldn't hold you as an expert on this subject......

[norther practitioner]

I got employee of the month for that one... oh wait.. never mind.

Oh, come on man, it wasn't hasselhof, it was aaaanold, 'cause thats more believable...

[MasterKiller]

I don't care one way or another, but the picture of his teacher (2nd down on left) looks faked:
http://www.ninedragonbaguazhang.com/gallery.htm

As does this meditation one:
http://www.ninedragonbaguazhang.com/howto.htm

And this one:
http://www.ninedragonbaguazhang.com/weapon.htm

[norther practitioner]

OK, there are some funny photochopped pieces strewn about that site...

and we all know what that means..

his bagua must be fake too...:rolleyes:

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by norther practitioner
OK, there are some funny photochopped pieces strewn about that site...

and we all know what that means..

his bagua must be fake too...:rolleyes: I didn't say that. I know for a fact his Bagua is better than mine, cuz I don't know any.

But if you're gonna put your head on someone else's body and advertise it was you, well...there are personal issues that come into question.

At any rate, I'm not trying to start anything, so I'll shut up now.

[norther practitioner]

But if you're gonna put your head on someone else's body and advertise it was you, well...there are personal issues that come into question.


No doubt.. I agree... but you're right his bagua is better than yours...:D mine too...


I'm gonna shut up too, 'cause I don't know him

But I will say this, those pictures are funny.... some of them are really not done very well... :D

[red5angel]

Oh, come on man, it wasn't hasselhof, it was aaaanold, 'cause thats more believable...


yeah but then why stick his head on YOUR body?! :eek:

[norther practitioner]

Originally posted by red5angel

yeah but then why stick his head on YOUR body?! :eek:


I was trying to pick a fight...

but he wouldn't do it, something about him trying to win an election in California; yeah right like some Austrian actor is going to win an impromptu election in California....



OH ****!... man, how come people don't tell me these things.

[PHILBERT]

Hey MK, the guy lives only a mile from me, so if you are ever in Dallas/Fort Worth again, drop me a line and I'll tell you where you can find his school, and you can watch a class of his.

(not directed towards MK, but everyone)
Isn't there an old saying that the best way to tell if a teacher is good is to look at his students?

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by PHILBERT
Hey MK, the guy lives only a mile from me, so if you are ever in Dallas/Fort Worth again, drop me a line and I'll tell you where you can find his school, and you can watch a class of his.

(not directed towards MK, but everyone)
Isn't there an old saying that the best way to tell if a teacher is good is to look at his students? I just might take you up on that one. I haven't been to Big D since the AAU tournament, though. Not sure when I'm coming back with the baby and all. I am due for another tattoo, though.....hmmmm

[red5angel]

Isn't there an old saying that the best way to tell if a teacher is good is to look at his students?


I would go with " the best way to tell if a teacher is a good teacher, is by looking at his students." ;)

[KC Elbows]

If I ever start a school, and have my own website, yu can bet other people's heads are gonna be photoshopped onto mine and my students. Have you met the people perusing the internet? They're not right in the head.

Also, I agree about how it seems like people start memberships at forums to trash talk someone, and then dissappear(or change handles and argue under that new handle), never posting about anything but that a couple times. Kind of makes it hard to believe.

[GLW]

Masterk...

The first photo link you posted where you reference the "teacher"

That is NOT Dr. Painter's teacher. It is the late Jou Tsoung Hwa who hosted the Tai Chi Farm up in New York.

Dr. Painter was a regular at the last few of those before Jou died.

In fact, most of those pictures are from Jou's Tai Chi Farm.

More along the lines of "see some of our things we've been up to"

[PHILBERT]

If I remember correctly MK, you were at Taiji Legacy last July/August right? I wasn't there, but Painter lives in the same city (and has his school as well) where Taiji Legacy was hosted, just on the other side of town.

[Harbinger]

It took me quite some time to find the Painter thread Philbert was referring to. If you check with your history books, you can tell the flight from China to Taiwan “in or around 1943” never took place and I agree with Flying Tiger 100%. No Chinese in their right mind would want to go to Taiwan of all the places at that time. Flying Tiger didn’t ridicule people escaping communism by going to Taiwan from China but the Painter story. Escaping the communist regime in China in 1943? What’s Painter talking about. His flight from China story in 1943 is pure fiction. As for the Mauser pistol, it was impossible for Li Long Dao to bring it into our country from Taiwan in 1943.

[PHILBERT]

*Taken from the Internal Forum (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28414)*


Originally posted by Harbinger
Brad,

Thanks for pointing out my typing errors. They were meant to read Yang and Bagua. My apologies. I have studied Yang Tai Chi with instructors from China, Hao Tai Chi with an instructor from Shanghai and also Hsing I with him. I have studied Bagua with an instructor in Beijing and another instructor in Hong Kong. Harbinger

What were there names? I find it a little unusual that you are living in Salt Lake City and just happened to study martial arts from masters who all came from China and surrounding areas. And all from famous cities in China. Maybe you did study with them, maybe not, hence why I am asking for names. Then again maybe you tossed it out that stuff, assuming we'd all fall for it and believe you. I know that Chinese masters do come to America and begin teaching, I just think it is rather ironic you have learned internal arts only from Chinese masters, while living in America.