Who did Ip Man Teach the knives

[Redboat]

I have heard that Ip Man only taught 5 guys the knives and two of the 5 were private students who were doctors....Does any body have any information on this?

[reneritchie]

I predict the answer will be akin to the punchline in any variant of the 'how many does it take to change a lightbulb' joke.

In general, look for the following indicators:

1) the knife to be pointy and stabby not chubby and choppy
2) the set to be short and non-repetitive
3) the knives not to be flipped back along the forearms


Aside from that, several of his students, whether or not they learned *the* set or *a* set have very good sets, and some are very good with knife applications, though not all look to be both.

[cha kuen]

I know for a fact that Lok Yiu, Tsui Seung Tin and Leung SHeung know it.

[hunt1]

Sorry Rene have to disagree with some of your statements since they represent opinion,educated as it may be, vs fact.

Set is short - From all acounts Yip Po Ching was taught a 12 section set and was the first to learn the set. WSL also was taught a 12 section set and an 8 section set. 12 section could hardly be considered short. At the same time some ,Tui Sheung Tin for example, have a short set. Yip Ching was taught an 8 section set that could not be considered short and other students of Yip man witnessed Yip Ching learning the knives from Yip Man. Yip Ching has talked about his brother learning the knives from his father and how Yip Man changed a section or two for Yip Chun since he was having some trouble with the sections.
More than likely the length of the set was determined by Yip Mans interest at the time and the size of the space being used to teach.

Flipping- Some do some dont. Yip brothers do to differeing degrees and they learned from their father according to others.

Chubby knives- Does the size of the knife really matter? Chubby knives,pointy knives, sticks or stones the concepts are applicable. Yip Man probably taught with whatever weapon was at hand. Moy Yat leaned with chopsticks after all.

So I dont think any of your tell tale signs are infallible or proof.

[yuanfen]

Why engage in controversies?

[yuanfen]

Why engage in controversies?

[reneritchie]

Hunt1, if the question was who learned anything knife related from Yip Man than you are correct.

There is too much variation in choreography and other elements for *the* knives to be the question. If it were, I would stick by my original points.

[Gangsterfist]

I have heard them actually being called double broad swords....

[yuanfen]

bat jam do in Tp Man terminology

[yuanfen]

bat jam do in Ip Man terminology
(darn typos)

[planetwc]

1. Doesn't Baat Jam Do mean 8 way chopping?

So wouldn't it make sense that there are 8 sections? Otherwise wouldn't the knife form incorporate 12 into it's name?

2. What is the difference between the 8 movement form and the 12 movement form?

Is it a question of breakdown of counting as there has been with the dummy set? ie 108, 112, 116, 128 versions, which seems to be more about HOW one counts the movements?

[yuanfen]

David (PlanetWC)sez:

1. Doesn't Baat Jam Do mean 8 way chopping?
((Commonly yes))

So wouldn't it make sense that there are 8 sections? Otherwise wouldn't the knife form incorporate 12 into it's name?

((Not necessarily))

[kj]

Originally posted by planetwc
1. Doesn't Baat Jam Do mean 8 way chopping?

So wouldn't it make sense that there are 8 sections? Otherwise wouldn't the knife form incorporate 12 into it's name?

2. What is the difference between the 8 movement form and the 12 movement form?

Is it a question of breakdown of counting as there has been with the dummy set? ie 108, 112, 116, 128 versions, which seems to be more about HOW one counts the movements?

Furthermore, as with most things WC, I'm inclined to believe the preeminent issue is how one executes the movements. On balance, issues of cardinality or choreography are trivial, IMHO. I realize some opinions strongly differ on this point (sic), thus perennial fodder for debate and "oneupsmanship."

Regards,
- kj

[russellsherry]

hi guys , acourding to a few people i know sigung chow sze cheun one of yips mans private students was taught the knifes, sifu chow is not well known but , he is one of the most highly regared sifu in the world, having taught sifu stevan chan and don mak both of hong kong having met and trained under steven chan with whom, has the best kicking skills, i have seen in wing chun. sifu chow must be a amazing person regards peace russellsherry

[David Peterson]

Baat Jaam Do, literally translated means "eight-slash knives", however my Sifu always maintained that even Yip Man did not know why it was called by this name. Unlike the "empty-hand" techniques, which had ample opportunity to be tested in the real world, there had been few, if any, real opportunities to use the knives in real combat, perhaps for centuries, so that much of the essence of the Baat Jaam Do form had been lost by the time Yip Man had taught it. My Sifu was quite open that he did not really understand the full implications of the form, especially some of the latter movements, but by the same token, he also maintained that Yip Man had only taught four people, and that it would be very embarrassing to others if he (Wong Shun Leung) was to name the other three....he never did! :)

[PaulH]

Hi David,

The same tact by Wong displayed on other occasions as well. He often avoided commenting directly about other Sifus' practice and teaching preferring to let the facts speak for themselves. Always a fighter and a gentleman!

Regards,
PH

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by kj
Furthermore, as with most things WC, I'm inclined to believe the preeminent issue is how one executes the movements. On balance, issues of cardinality or choreography are trivial, IMHO. I realize some opinions strongly differ on this point (sic), thus perennial fodder for debate and "oneupsmanship."

Regards,
- kj
Right. Very amusing how you phrased it, "issues of cardinality or choreography" as if a movement, more or less, matters if one doesn't have the substance behind it.

FWIW, Yip Man and Leung Sheung taught the knives only to people who they judged had the temperment to use them against another person. Teaching the set to someone who would be reluctant to use them would be no service.

Regards,

[yuanfen]

This topic can easily result in hurt feelings- without enhancing the
usage and understanding of the bjd. The others have been even more reticent than WSL- a fact not a criticism. Same reasons-avoid embarrasing others.
To the credt of WSL he taught others his bjd form and that has
spread. Another version of Ip Man's bjd has also begun to spread.

Apparently IM showed different people aspects of bjd and pole usage. Rooted in the culture of his time and old line masters-he
doled out information as he pleased.

The oneupmanship while present to some extent in many places-
is highly heightened and exaggerated in our time and place.

The key thing is the proof of the pudding---no matter how he/she got it is Mr/Ms/Mrs X or Y proficient in its usage and are wing chun principles to trained eyes evident in the usage....or are they just swinging them around looking fierce.

[hunt1]

Couple of things.
The proof of who knows the knives is in the footwork not the hand work.
Since no one on this board or any other was there how can anyone say what criteria Yip Man used for deciding to whom he would teach the knives?
All wing chun forms can be knife forms if you understand.
The important thing about the form is not how it is performed with the knives but without the knives.

Since WSL and a few others who did know showed the form to classmates/friends the form has spread far enough that the whole question is meaningless.
Many that didnt get the whole form or part, mixed in knife work from other versions of WC. Yip Man was not the only source of wing chun in hongkong in the 60s and certainly not by the 70s.
2 very well known students did not the the knife form but now 35 years later their grandstudents claim they did. Amazing how history changes in order to legitimize what if its quality is already legitimate. Yes for those that know I am speaking about the Yip Po Ching centered incident. For those that dont know it doesnt really matter and members of those families are on the boards and would kick up a storm saying its all a big lie etc.

[yuanfen]

Comments on snips from Hunt1.

The proof of who knows the knives is in the footwork not the hand work.

(((It seems to me that handwork, footwork and the coordination of the whole body is involved in the knives.))


All wing chun forms can be knife forms if you understand.
The important thing about the form is not how it is performed with the knives but without the knives.

((Not mutually exclusive-it seems to me))

Since WSL and a few others who did know showed the form to classmates/friends the form has spread far enough that the whole question is meaningless.

((Now-that seems to be the case.These questions are really unnecessary and divisive))


Yip Man was not the only source of wing chun in hongkong in the 60s and certainly not by the 70s.

((however- I think that Ip man's approach was unique and simpatico with his own approach to wing chun. The bot jam do name is Ip Man related. Other lineages and styles that use double knives use other names and their motions do not appear to be the same))

[hunt1]

Yuanfen, I agree with your comments. iwas just making some generalizations based upon some of the earlier comments in the thread.

[Phil Redmond]

In TWC we are taught that the 8 chop/slash knives were named after the principle areas Monks would chop at to maim before killing. I'm not going to get into WC is, or is not from Shaolin/Monks argument. I'm simply relaying what I was taught. Those 8 chops are to the ankles, knees, elbows, and wrists.

[Phil Redmond]

Chop can be pek or jaam. Slash can also be jaam.

[Chronos]

Originally posted by EmptyCup
I would label pek as slash
The application is the application. Some are getting too hung up on definitions.

[Lindley57]

When discussing the bot chom doh (or the pole), one must keep in mind that this is an area that is not compartmentalized like learning the earlier stages of the Kung Fu. First, many do not make it to this level. Second, there is the old superstition about learning the knives directly from your Sifu will "cut" the relationship. Hence, learning the knives can often be an experience for most NOT to be learned directly from the Sifu.
As one progresses in the Kung Fu, you should encouraged by the system not to depend on the system. So, a set of movements can be left to the matured mind to express as they feel appropriate. You will see many different expressions from those who endured the path truthfully. This is the level of what is.

Good luck in your kung fu.

[planetwc]

I'm not sure the importance of who Ip Man "really taught the knives to" has for practitioners TODAY.

After all, with the spread of Ip Man Wing Chun around the world, the availablity of video and seminars, everyone has access to the knives today in whatever "choreography" exists.

Ip Man was known for offering "secret" stuff to people who came offering large sums of cash. Sometimes, that was extra secret "more moves" on the jong, more moves in the sets, etc.

Course, if you weren't a capable WCK student to begin with, one wonders what all the extra double secret probation stuff would do you anyway.

On the other hand, how do we know what Ip Man taught anyone at a particular point in time--we weren't there, and there are timeframes when direct students where not around each other when they learned from Ip Man--so even THEY don't know. Their training time with him did not overlap.

For example Leung Sheung and Lok Yiu lived with Ip Man from 1949 to 1955. Whereas William Cheung lived with Ip Man after he had moved out of the Restaurant worker's Union HQ. Could William know for sure what Lok Yiu learned in the evenings with Ip Man? Could Lok Yiu know for sure William learned in the evenings living with Ip Man?

Even Ip Man's son's arrived late to HK to begin their real training in their father's art. Who knows what they were taught by their father directly one on one?

In the end, what matters is what one can do with their own skills in real life.

[reneritchie]

Since the name is unique to Yip Man WCK, I would think Yip Man would know its meaning or perhaps even coined the term himself. (They are more generically in WCK called simply Yee Jee Seung Do, or Parallel Double Knives, due to the way they are held parallel to each other. In my branch, they are known as Yee Jee Kim Yeung Dit Ming Do, Parallel Clamping Yang Life Taking Knives).

They are typically called 'knives' because in Chinese, Do (Dao) is a weapon with a single sharpened edge, while Gim (Jian) has both edges sharpened and is typically given the 'swords' translation. It makes differentiating the two characters easier in English.

8 as in 8 Chop Knives doesn't have to mean the #8, just as 2 in Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma or Yee Jee Seung Do refers to the shape rather than the character. 8 is a two-part character, as the knives are two-parts (2 knives) weapons. 8 is a convergeant character (^), and the knives are sometimes held in a convergeant manner (like for Kwun or Gaun). 8 can also represent the cardinal directions and represent covering all the angles. Just as 'chop' in the name doesn't mean you can't stab (I believe Yip Man has stabbing motions with the knife--at least other lineages do), 8 doesn't have to overly restrict the meaning.

In general, though, I agree with KJ. The core content is the most important and choreography can just be a secret decoder ring for a special club.

[CarlDouglas108]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
In TWC we are taught that the 8 chop/slash knives were named after the principle areas Monks would chop at to maim before killing. I'm not going to get into WC is, or is not from Shaolin/Monks argument. I'm simply relaying what I was taught. Those 8 chops are to the ankles, knees, elbows, and wrists.

Sifu Redmond, shouldn't it be :In TWC we are taught that the 8 chop/slash knives were named after the principle areas Monks would chop at to maim *rather* kill.

Regards

CD

[yuanfen]

FWIW/IMO

No intention of being negative. Who learned what from Ip man himself whether its the bjd or biu gee has less relevance with the passage of time. And the subject IMO is loaded with pride and misinformation.
There have been all kinds of sharing of info of different aspects of Ip man's teaching- since Ip man's time- a diferent world and culture. (I dont like the term "protecting the rice bowl"-
rather crudeand gneral. Or "choreography"- an import from dance aesthetics not martial function and integrity of motion. Ok-personal idiosyncracies-
not relevant to the rest of the post).

But some terms are symbolic "markers" of origin. The bot jom do clearly was a Ip man usage-not a general southern usage or a label for all double knives.

Lots of people and the Chinese specially used numbers for different kinds of organization of information and curricular matters..
The yee and yee gee kim yeung ma shows the triangular aligned pronation of the hips, knees and toes...of great importance for the
sil lim tao...it follows the calligraphic representation of the number 2.

The bot comes from the calligraphic representation of the number 8 with two smooth slashes...illustrative of Ip man's approach to the proper coordination of the knives in practice. There is a "do" in bot jam do. You see the "bot" in the Ip man organization of knife training.Of course there are other organizations by bot in wc- but not in the same way as in bjd.

For contemporary times- the important thing is understanding, sharing and doing wing chun right rather than name dropping and one up manship IMO.

joy chaudhuri

[anerlich]

Sifu Redmond, shouldn't it be :In TWC we are taught that the 8 chop/slash knives were named after the principle areas Monks would chop at to maim *rather* kill.

It's "principal", and "before killing", while it has another connotation, can also be read as "a preferred option to killing".

[anerlich]

8 as in 8 Chop Knives doesn't have to mean the #8

Rene, do you think the same is true of the 6.5 point pole in some sense?

[Phil Redmond]

CD you are right. I should have used 'rather'.

As to the name of the Do and the Kwan. TWC teaches that the 8 in the Baat Jaam Do represents strikes to the ankles (2), knees (2), elbows (2) and wrists (2). I'm no historian so all I can say is this is what I was taught.

The 6.5 Kwan in TWC has 6 strikes and 1/2 strike.

The explanation for Yee Jee Kim Yeung Mah is the the feet should be parallel to each other like the old style of writing the character for number (2 vertical lines). Not the way 2 is written now. If anyone had seen the video of the 2nd William Cheung seminar at the VT Museum he explains it there. He even went to a board and wrote the character for the number 8 which looks like the pigeon toed YJKYM that I did for 13 years and then he wrote the character for 2 like the YJKYM I do now. I'm not saying one is better than the other. To each his own. I never knock anyone else's WC. I can only pass on the info I learned in TWC from Sifu Cheung.

[yuanfen]

There seems to be more than six possible strikes with the kwan.
But I agree with Phil--- in these matters of explaining the meaning
of bjd and the 6 1/2 points of the kwan- there are different explanations- and as Pil sez to each his own.

[Phil Redmond]

We have 6.5 distinct strikes with the pole. The other movements are parries before the strike. But like you said there are many possibilities. I learned to flip the knives in one lineage. But TWC doesn't do it. Though there is the possibility that you can be disarmed if you flip at the right time. I still see some benefits of having the knives along your forearm in certain instances. I just wouldn't do that during a TWC class ;)

[yuanfen]

Sorry Phil for the typo in my last post.

[reneritchie]

Hey Andrew,


Rene, do you think the same is true of the 6.5 point pole in some sense?

The Dim (Dian/Point) character makes me lean more towards a numerical count, however I have read interpretations that, rather than 6 1/2, it was meant as a 6:30 read, though I do not understand this as that would seem more likely for a 2-ended pole set rather than single ended like we do.

Also, unlike Yee or Baat, the Luk (liu) character is rather more complex.

[Jim Roselando]

Hey guys,



In my branch, they are known as Yee Jee Kim Yeung Dit Ming Do, Parallel Clamping Yang Life Taking Knives).



In Leung Jan's Koo Lo teaching the knives were refered to as:

Yee Jee Yum Yeung Dit Ming Dao


Leung Jan also had some challenge fights with the knives and was reported to have killed people with them. Of course death waivers would have been signed prior to any of these sort of fights. If not, LJ would have been in tossed in jail.



Regards,

[azwingchun]

As to the name of the Do and the Kwan. TWC teaches that the 8 in the Baat Jaam Do represents strikes to the ankles (2), knees (2), elbows (2) and wrists (2). I'm no historian so all I can say is this is what I was taught.

That's interesting! Though, I was taught that the '8' represented the 8 cutting angles which are applied to the body. Thanks for sharing that. ;)

[Tom Kagan]

That's interesting! Though, I was taught that the '8' represented the 8 cutting angles which are applied to the body. Thanks for sharing that. ;)

While the answer you were taught for the '8' representation sounds good within the surface realm of folklore, closer contemplation reveals it is both incomplete and too complex to be a Ving Tsun answer.

Obviously, there are infinite angles. However, setting aside that for a moment, you might be surprised you still would miss at least one angle. We don't live in a two dimensional world.

Counting in a simple fashion as you describe would make nine angles of attack.

Counting in a similar fashion of reducing the angles to 45 degree quadrants, just facing forward towards someone would make seventeen angles of attack.

[azwingchun]

Obviously, there are infinite angles. However, setting aside that for a moment, you might be surprised you still would miss at least one angle. We don't live in a two dimensional world.

Agreed! I believe this as well, and not only for the knives but for any line of attack, whether it be using the knives, hands or even stepping. There are angles within angles. ;)

[TjD]

i was taught that the baat jam do used to be called the "8 killing knives" or something along those lines, but then was changed.

however, i dont think the name matters that much. the proof is in the pudding, as some people say.

WC follows a **** logical progression.

first you learn how to stand (siu lim tau)
then you learn how to walk (chum kiu)
then you break the rules and learn what everything's really all about (biu jee)
then you learn how to run (the knives)

[CFT]

Isn't the "baat jaam do" named for the 8 basic Wing Chun arm/hand positions (sau faat)? e.g. tan, bong, fook, etc.

[TjD]

Originally posted by crimsonking
its worthwhile spending some time on a zeroth stage, before even learning to stand...



i haven't seen a crawling form yet :D :D

[Phil Redmond]

Rene wrote:
>>8 as in 8 Chop Knives doesn't have to mean the #8,<<

The character in the Baat used IS the number 8.

>>. . . just as 2 in Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma or Yee Jee Seung Do refers to the shape rather than the character. . . <<

Yih is the number and Jih means character in Cantonese.
(2 character, or character 2). My logic says why use the word jih which means character after the character for 2 if that isn't what they were trying to convey?

>>8 is a two-part character<<
There is no radical in the character 8. Can you explain what you mean?