San Shou Side kicks

[rogue]

I have two side kicks from karate, a snapping and a thrusting. With the snapping the base foot doesn't turn and with the thrusting the base foot turns about 45 degrees. These aren't power techniques but work well as kicks to the knee, shin, thigh, hips, and bladder. These are pretty inclose kicks that keep you upright and facing more towards your opponent and still lets you follow up with hand attacks.

In TKD I learned the popular side kick that's almost a back kick. Great power, good distance, great for body shots, but telegraphs alot and leaves you facing the wrong way if you miss. Not much of a problem in a TKD centric school but a nightmare elsewhere.

Considering that ss uses throws and hands, how is it's side kick executed and how is it used tactically?

[ShaolinTiger00]

Rouge,

not a simple thing to answer but generally you'll use it to stomp someone's forward movement, or to blast someone at a distance.

positive: it's a powerful kick that is hard to catch.

negative: it's hard to follow up with an immediate combination.

Sidekick into spinning back kick is a powerful combination that is often used.

Sidekick followed by a right cross is also good.

Sidekick, jab/cross is pretty standard. you're stopping their entry and then coming in with punches to close.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

Originally posted by rogue
With the snapping the base foot doesn't turn and with the thrusting the base foot turns about 45 degrees.

hang on, you dont point your base foot away from your target? isnt that why some of the old school karate guys have stuffed hips? I know I do it by accident now and then (usually if im too tired) and it certainly doesnt feel right.

[Judge Pen]

I turn my base foot's heel toward my side kick target. I don't have the hip flexibility to do it any other way.

I always focus with the heel of the kicking leg as a striking point. The kick's follow through determines if it is a snapping kick or a thrusting kick. I've never been taught to kick with the side blade of my foot with a side kick.

[lkfmdc]

lead leg side kick (to knee/to body)

As the lead knee is raised, the rear foot turns outward and the front hip is thrust forward. The side kick then shoots out in a STRAIGHT line (do not hook it like a round kick). The power comes from the locking of the hip. The buttocks must be tucked in. Also, the locking of the kick keeps the opponent at a distance. The lead leg side kick can be used as a “stop hit” against a rushing opponent or an opponent launching a rear leg kick. The lead leg side kick to the knee can also be used to distract an opponent and set up a clinch.

angle side kick
This is a side kick with your rear leg. Your lead leg steps outward slightly and the kick travels at a 45 degree angle.

steal step side kick
The steal step side kick is a method by which the side kick can be used offensively. While in the fighting stance, the rear leg slides forward behind the front leg and the hip is turned to face the opponent. From this position, the knee is raised and the side kick extended.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
lead leg side kick (to knee/to body)

The lead leg side kick to the knee can also be used to distract an opponent and set up a clinch.

In your experience, if this kick is performed with the proper force, can it disable one's knee?

[Water Dragon]

Anyone else throw the kick knee down with a bent leg?

[Ray Pina]

Aaaayyyy, Water Dragon. Great question.

Yes, but only when we are very close and somehow you have gotten to my outside gate. But then it's actually a back kick.

[Indestructible]

Originally posted by Judge Pen


In your experience, if this kick is performed with the proper force, can it disable one's knee?

I read on another forum that it takes about 60 pounds of pressure with a thrust kick to blow out someones knee. 60 pounds isn't much.

[Ben Gash]

If I remember correctly Rogue used to do Okinawan Karate (as opposed to Japanese), which is directly descended from Fujian Kung Fu. When I did Wuzhuquan, the short hand work used to utilise a side kick from a triangle stance in the manner described. I really can't see how this would damage your hip.

[Indestructible]

Originally posted by rogue
telegraphs alot and leaves you facing the wrong way if you miss.

You can de-telegraph(is that a real word?) this kick if you set it up correctly. If you are sparring you are probably in a side facing position, flip your foward leg heel up to your butt in a relaxed manner and fire the kick just as your heel taps your butt. Snap your hips over as you make contact with your target. If you crunch you leading arm side in and don't lean you upper body back(which I think is a bad idea for almost any kick) you can decrease the telegraph even more and your hands are ready to follow up. You would only be facing the wrong way if you over rotate into a rear kick. This example would best fit a close range senario.

[Judge Pen]

If you set up your side kick properly, then it can be almost impossible to tell if they are ggoing to throw a hook kick or a side kick until the kick is already on it's way.

[rogue]

Ben, it used to be 15% Okinawan 85% TKD, now it's all Okinawan karate. Most kicks we do are below my hip level so for me they're easier on my body than the TKD kicks to the body. I also like how the Okinawan style side kick is usefull as a counter.

lkfmdc and ST00 and anybody else, how do you chamber the kicking leg?

Is your side kick the same as the TKD sidekick?

Do you guys look to the sidekick as a fight-ender like many TKD fighters do? Fight ender being a relative term. :)


hang on, you dont point your base foot away from your target? Not for the kicks below the waist and you can still get some hip into them. Also I'm looking at him from the side and not back over my shoulder. Add to that the chamber having several uses for blocking incoming kicks and shifting the leg out of the way of leg kicks and it's good from a self defense stand point.If I do the side kick to the body the planted foots heel faces more towards the target.

[Ayron]

I noticed people discussing the stance in regards to a sanshou sidekick and that you would be standing sideways. In my humble opinion this should not be so. Sanshou is fought facing the opponenet as opposed to other styles like karate and tae kwon do. The stance is a variation on the boxing stance as well as similar to the hsing yi 'san ti se'. When I do this kick the important thing that I was taught was to chamber the leg ****her back than is normal and push it out, as opposed to snapping it. The was taought to me by Rudi Ott who was taught by Jason Yee in Boston. I think my sidekick is effective and i have used it in tournaments with success. The difference in the sanshou sidekick is that when you lift your leg up instead of the knee facing forwards or even 45 degrees to the side it should come all the way up to your side and almost touch your chest. If you kick with the right leg the the right knee travels all the way over to the left side almost touching your stomach. It is then pushed out as hard and fast as you can. Once again, my opinion on the sanshou sidekick. Hope it helps.

[Indestructible]

I have a good set up for the side kick that was taught to me. In the foward facing stance, cross-step behind your kicking leg while keeping your hips squared to your opponent. Flip your kicking leg heel to your butt and fire the kick as you rotate your hips to a side facing position. The supporting leg foot should rotate as the hips rotate so the heel is facing foward as the kick makes contact.

[Mutant]

Ayron describes it well (btw, welcome to the kfo forum).

I'd like to add that the san shou side-kick is relaxed and fluid w/ as little tension as possible until the end snap (fa jing) explodes at the target.

Yes Jason Yee has the nastiest sidekick i've ever seen or encountered.

[Becca]

Basic kicks, in my experience, telegraph nothing if you set them up right.
A side thrust kick is set up exactly like a front snap, front thrust, or roundhouse kick. The rear leg is drawn up to waist level. The recoil is to pull the foot back into this chambered position. This allows one to either step back into a fighting stance, side step, moon jump, set up for a spinning creasant kick... just about anything. Rechambering also protects the grion from counter strikes.

[ShaolinTiger00]

how do you chamber the kicking leg?

Ayron said it, but I'll say it again. (btw: Hi Ayron!)

A san shou sidekick fires out like a piston and that's exactly how I think of the mechanics. my knee comes up and across my body, which is slightly turned and contracted and then

BOOM

THRUST! it out and quickly retract.

practice at different ranges to the heavy bag. other than just your optimum range.

At times I will stand right beside the heavy bag and then take one step to my outside. putting me about 18" from the bag and I'm still able to generate alot of power. If you've ever had a kick jammed you'll know why you want power at such an uncomfortable closeness.

[Ayron]

I should have mentioned that the sanshou sidekick is different than other style's sidekicks due to the grappling aspect. Standing sideways would make someome more susceptible to being thrown. I also believe that the thrusting motion is more important than the traditional snapping sidekick due to it's application. It is used primarily as a penetrating power shot to set up punching and throws. Once again, just my opinion.

[rogue]

OK same mechanics as the TKD side kick that I learned. You are dead on about TKD and the side stance Ayron. :)

[fa_jing]

I agree, Rogue. From what they described, it's the same as a traditional TKD sidekick once it is chambered - the on-guard stance is different, of course. Step-behind side-kick was also described.

[Mutant]

sure there are similarities between tkd and sanshou side-kicks (as well as other styles) but theyre really not the same, i've learned both, tkd years ago and the sanshou side-kick fairly recently. in fact new san shou students commonly have prior ma backgrounds, often tkd. everyone has to essentially relearn the side-kick when they start training with us and i havent seen anyone show up with a sidekick like the sanshou version. there was a tkd teacher at the gym the other night teaching kicks and doing kicking drills including the side-kick, and it occured to me at the time that it looked very different from what we were doing in sanshou. just my observations.

[lkfmdc]

found this pic on the old hard drive, it was obscured by some other stuff, which I am NOT going to post :D

Albert Pope doing (or just finished?) a side kick at the world cup...

[Suntzu]

my hip doesn't move like that :(

[Indestructible]

Nice form in that pic! Head over hip over leg. No leaning back and right on center. Makes me soooo happy.:D

[ShaolinTiger00]

which I am NOT going to post

Brother bukakke? yeah he's popular.

[fa_jing]

OK, so what is different about it? The lead leg kick, I mean.

[rogue]

Better start explaining MutantWarrior because I don't see it. Even Indestructibles side kick setup is used by many WTF TKD people who chamber their front, side and lead roundhouse kicks all the same way and that's like a front kick.









bukakke bad, but FLANKAKKE xxxxx is good.

[Mr Punch]

Is that a cream pie?

I like bukkake and can't see why everyone is so obsessed by an udon dish.

[Mr Punch]

BTW, interesting thread.

In WC (which admittedly is renowned for not only lacking ability to fight tomato-filled paper bags in the ring, which is second only to its reputation for kicking like a girl) we are taught to kick without chambering generally, and I've been shown the following sidekicks as staples;

1) Coming straight up and connecting the blade of your foot/heel with the target.
I say straight but this is usually a slight curve over the centreline, like a shallow bong gerk, to establish balance, get more of a driving energy, help prevent a stop kick/body jam, and to cover the centreline (nuts/back knee).
Stepping off at a 45 and chambering more like Ayrtn's description provides a possibility of snagging your opponent's footwork, and putting either of his legs in more effective range;

2) The chambered downward side stomp, which can be set up somewhat like everyone else's description or more often, and less powerfully but more directly, with a lower chamber, kind of like stepping directly onto someone's knee.

They seem to work OK in sparring, but my questions are this:

1) How do other styles do side kicks? Is it more or less chambered?

2) San shou isn't a style is it? So how come you san shouers do the side kick about the same way? Are you coached that way by someone, does it come from your mother style (in CMA or other if you have one), and do you ever use one effectively with less of a chamber?

Sorry Rogue, but I think this fits in with your thread question.

[Ayron]

I will try to answer some of Mat's questions....I started martial arts when I was 7yrs old starting with Judo, then Tae Kwon Do, then Hung Gar and now the Omei system. I have learned different variations of sidekicks over the years. The sanshou sidekick is the one that stands apart from the others, it's almost like a different kick. When Rudi Ott first taught me this kick for the first month I didn't even see the difference. I felt it though during sparring! His was stronger than mine. It wasn't until we got into the subtle differences of pulling the leg all the way back and pushing it out as opposed to snapping it out that I began to truly learn it. It's hard now to descirbe and really should be taught by someone who understands the differences. There are some good examples of the sanshou sidekick at:
www.sanshou.com
This is from the Worlds in Macao 2003. I'm not sure if it helps out too much as it's easier to show and teach than it is to describe the sanshou kick in words on a forum. An exercise Rudi taught me that he was taught in Boston by Jason Yee is to stand close to a wall with your palm on the wall. Have your bottom foot pivoted so that the toes face the wall at a 45 degree angle. Pull your other leg up, knee high, toes pulled back. Pull your knee all the way back and over to your side, touching your chest if possible (this is as far back as you can go, which is the fundamental difference to this and other sidekicks) then push it out perpendicular to the wall in a sidekick. Hold it out and high for a second then bring it back. Repeat 50 times.
Hope this helps. Not sure how clear that is without pictures.

[ShaolinTiger00]

nice Aryon.

I think what they're trying to say (I've never done TKD..) is that the TKD kick's emphasis is the snapping power of speed. and the sanshou kick's emphasis is much more on power.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
nice Aryon.

I think what they're trying to say (I've never done TKD..) is that the TKD kick's emphasis is the snapping power of speed. and the sanshou kick's emphasis is much more on power.

Many taekwondoka are encouraged to "stick" the kick as well, rather than pulling it back, piston-like.

I'd always assumed that was because it looked cool. But I've heard people insist it's more powerful that way. Personally, I find the piston version is stronger.

[Ayron]

I'm not going to debate on what sidekick is stronger, or better. I think they are both useful for the application within their art. I find that the sanshou sidekick penetrates more, but the TKD sidekick is faster. I like to treat them as two different kicks.

[apoweyn]

I think mine's a bit of both anyway. I don't stick it but I don't draw it quite that far back either.

[Indestructible]

By stick do you mean a full extension of your kicking leg? Seems to me that if your not reaching a full extension its more of a jab than full fledged kick.

[apoweyn]

Nope. I mean locking it out there for a second before retracting it.

[Judge Pen]

By locking it out there a second, then the force will push your opponent away from you more like a shove. By retracting quickly, the force is more snapping and you lessen your chances of having someone catch the kicking leg.

[ShaolinTiger00]

I mean locking it out there for a second before retracting it.

I do not do this. I have no idea if that makes it right or wrong.

[Ayron]

I fully extend my kick, but I don't lick it out there for a second. It would be caught and I'd get dumped.

[Liokault]

Ayron, why is your homepage all about rape?

[Ayron]

What are you talking about?

[Ayron]

looks like someone hacked my profile Gene. Can you remove the web link that someone thought was a funny joke. I find it offensive.
Thanks

[Ayron]

I fixed it.
Not cool.
Guess I'll stop posting.

[Liokault]

Originally posted by Ayron
I fixed it.
Not cool.
Guess I'll stop posting.


No need to stop posting guy.

But as much of the content of your home page was about ghay rape, maybe you would be more at home posting on a BJJ forum:D .

[Ayron]

I meant that I would only stop until it was fixed.
No worries.

[blooming lotus]

ENJOYING YOUR COMMENTS HERE SO GLAD TO HEAR THAT ;)