training structure

[piotrj]

im interesting about your training structure. how about ji ben gong, zhang zhuang, pai da gong, sanda. how you practice fighting? what about pu fa ( foot work ). how important is for you basic skills like ji ben gong and zhang zhuang?

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by piotrj
im interesting about your training structure.

How cute is that? sorry, couldn't resist :D





how about ji ben gong, zhang zhuang, pai da gong, sanda. how you practice fighting? what about pu fa ( foot work ). how important is for you basic skills like ji ben gong and zhang zhuang?


As for the rest, obviously it varies from school to school and often has big impact on how long I stay...personally I prize my footwork, and flexibilty.....I like to spar..but not too often, being an over-achiever and acomplishing more on my own....big on muscular endurance and arm, upper leg and core strength...drills are a big part of a "good" sesh and forms for me are secondary...only because I adapt so easily and once I have a form/stlye down, I prefer to just empty the yang cup, keep my body working and at it's most receptive until I find the nxt teacher ...is that what you meant? Oh..and also practice dim mak, so for me training accuracy is huge factor :)

[piotrj]

yes.... i see that you practise a lot of dim mak. i was rather thinking about something else, but anyway thank you for reply. i wish you luck to find next teachers.

[Tainan Mantis]

Hi Piotrj,
First of all happy to see a PM brother from Poland join in.
The subject of structure is close to my heart.
There are so many different ways and many different ways are good.

brief outline

1.learn how to stand in the stances.
-mabu
-hill climbing
-empty etc.
-Each wit a simple hand

2. learn how to move in the stances with a simple hand
-one step 3 punches. moving in hill climb
-Hide a peach in a leaf. hill climb horse
-jade ring hands. hook kick and twisting step
-deng ta... etc

3.sealing the chi
-light strikes to body

4. kao da. strikes by partner for conditioning and developing power
-strike limbs
-strike body. like 8 shorts

5. forms

6. 2 man drill from form
-5 continuous punches ...etc

7. mixing drills at random
-wear gloves

Within the above are added at anytime.
-throwing the sandbag
-throwing the rock lock
-18 luohan gung

[mantis108]

Here's the way we used to do it in HK under GM Chiu:

1. Warmups (Taiji forms forms for the more advanced)
2. stretchings (Ya Tui with Liu Tui)
3. Kicking exercises
4. 8 Basic Stances & monkey walk
5. conditioning (solo or partnered "Kao Da")
6. Single moves/Sau Fa/2 men drills
7. Open hand forms/Weapon forms/2 men forms (including wooden dummy form)
8. other conditioning or instructions with Sau Fa

Since Tainan Mantis showed me 18 Lohan Gong and other stuff, I have incooperated them into the above structure.

Mantis108

[German Bai Lung]

For I split the training in Basics/forms 2 times a week and Sanda only 2 times a week, I got different structure in training of these two trainings:

1. Basic/Forms
- warm up with training from athletics (like runners ABC etc), jumping exercises or doing basic stances with more basic handtechniques (ma bo, dang san bo, tong ta bo, tau bo).
- basic - gymnastics (like doing a wheel, standing on the hands, rolling)
- kicking exercises
- basic handtechniques single or as partnerdrill
- forms (all kind of)
- advanced: application of forms

2. Sanda:
- warm up like mentioned above plus often using the rope
- kicking and some kind of easy punches
- drills with kicking and punches combined
- doing the sandbag and the handmids
- partnerdrills and/or selfdefence, applications
- tai chi fixes step
- chim nim sau free
- Free sparring

[piotrj]

thank you.
for us very important is for begginers to practise a zhang zhuang. in yantai's 7 star it is a complete form, rather simply moves in low stances. its takes about 10 min. for the begginers to 20-30 min. for longer practised students. after 3 - 6 months it gives a good basic power. together with a ji ben gong it is a good combination to start advanced practise of tou lu and more. and it is helpfull later during practice how to create power from all body ( fa jing, shen fa ), because you have "roots". in many mainland gong fu, practising a zhang zhuang is first and basic skill. if you know how to stand than you can learn how to walk.
when i asked about sanda i mean chuan tong sanda, not a san shou ( sport sanda ). we have a 3 levels of traditional sanda. for example in first level we fight using only open hands ( no fist ), kicks only on low level, no throws. and in next levels we have less limits. in my opinion this 3 levels gives a good chance to learn slowly but in right way how to use tang lang quan.
and again about zhang zhuang - Yu shifu tell us that Lin shifu teaching basic skills look like this: first 3 months every training looks: ji ben gong, zhang zhuang, ji ben gong, zhang zhuang, ji ben gong, zhang zhuang - "ok. we are finished for today, you can go." :) ( how you can go after this?) how many people are ready for so hard practise today?
ps. i hope that my simple english is understand for you...sorry for mistakes:)

[mantis108]

Hi piotrj,

Very interesting... :)

<<<for us very important is for begginers to practise a zhang zhuang. in yantai's 7 star it is a complete form, rather simply moves in low stances. its takes about 10 min. for the begginers to 20-30 min. for longer practised students. after 3 - 6 months it gives a good basic power.>>>

This is really interesting. Our stances training includes Ba Da Ma Bu as a mini form (not really a form per se) of 3 sections and we repeat that at least 3 time at 3 different speed. It is also for training basic power with basic hands.

<<<together with a ji ben gong it is a good combination to start advanced practise of tou lu and more. >>>

What would be your definition of Jiben gong? Do you mean something like "Yi Bu San Chui" (one step 3 punches) with both solo and partnered practice?

<<<and it is helpfull later during practice how to create power from all body ( fa jing, shen fa ), because you have "roots". in many mainland gong fu, practising a zhang zhuang is first and basic skill. if you know how to stand than you can learn how to walk.>>>

I believe this is emphasized through out all traditional styles. Even the modern Wushu needs them for the show.

<<<when i asked about sanda i mean chuan tong sanda, not a san shou ( sport sanda ). we have a 3 levels of traditional sanda. for example in first level we fight using only open hands ( no fist ), kicks only on low level, no throws. and in next levels we have less limits. in my opinion this 3 levels gives a good chance to learn slowly but in right way how to use tang lang quan.>>>

This is really interesting. I am wondering how soon will one begins the first level of Sanda, which I understand as traditional sparring? How would the student be introduce to Sanda. Are there drills to help polish the techniques before Sanda which seems to be free sparring even at the first level from the impression that I get from you post. We don't call it Sanda. We call it Sau Fa (Shou Fa/hand method). Some of the people in our lineage would seperate the throw/takedown stuff from the no throw/takedwon stuff. Personally, I do every thing with takedown or throw. I start my student with rolling and breakfalls on day one.

<<<and again about zhang zhuang - Yu shifu tell us that Lin shifu teaching basic skills look like this: first 3 months every training looks: ji ben gong, zhang zhuang, ji ben gong, zhang zhuang, ji ben gong, zhang zhuang - "ok. we are finished for today, you can go." ( how you can go after this?) how many people are ready for so hard practise today?>>>

Sounds like a very good foundation building program. Wonderful! :)

ps. i hope that my simple english is understand for you...sorry for mistakes

No problem. It is the internet. We are all equal in making grammatical mistakes. :D

Warm regards

Mantis108

[piotrj]

Originally posted by mantis108

1 What would be your definition of Jiben gong? Do you mean something like "Yi Bu San Chui" (one step 3 punches) with both solo and partnered practice?
2 This is really interesting. I am wondering how soon will one begins the first level of Sanda, which I understand as traditional sparring? How would the student be introduce to Sanda. Are there drills to help polish the techniques before Sanda which seems to be free sparring even at the first level from the impression that I get from you post.

so let answer in points:
1 jiben gong is a group of exercises wich helps in dynamic kind of power and flexibility. in our way it is a group of kicks and few hand technics doing together with kicks - things like this. sometime it's better to show then write about it :) . Maybe Brendan write about it better. anyway it is good way to have a dynamic flexibilty ( you know i mean when someone tells "ok i show you how high i can kick but you need to give me a half hour to warm up " ;) - it is rather static flexibility ). it is practice solo 10-20 times each exercise.
2 mhm... how soon, so first exercises helping in footwork and basic hand skills are teaching very fast. there is few exercises wich helping to find right way beetwen first moves and first level. and of course tou lu are very important because the footwork in yantai's 7* mantis is same in forms and in fight. so practise forms (tou lu) in this level is very important. there is for example a exercise called ( in translation ) " five coomon technic ". this is a kind of bridge beetween basic moves and first level sanda. you practise this with opponent, but this technics are same in tou lu.
what is important to me that in our mantis the structure of training and learning is very logic and there is no mystical way :).
sometime it is hard to show things in words but i hope that is helpfull. and what is most important - practise forms (tou lu) is common with learning fighting skills. but there is many times a ssituation when people practise forms then learn how to fight, and this are not together. so when forms are not usefull why they are practise them, when during the fight they are trying to do rather poor kickbox (wich is a good MA of course). i saw this situation quite often and it is sad... but not in our lovely PRAYING MANTIS;)

[mantis108]

Thank you for reply. I hear you and I understand what you are saying (or at least I think I do). Of course it would be great to see the action, which is worth more than a thousand words. :) I think you are doing a good job in explaining already. It good to know that your teacher's teaching philosophy is really about applying the lessons as they are found in Mantis Kung Fu and not kickbox (not to said it's not a good MA).

Thank you for sharing. :)

Warm regards

Mantis108

[SevenStar]

warm up

new techniques/drills/footwork

bag/pad work

sparring

That's how every class is conducted where I train bjj, muay thai and judo.

[Tainan Mantis]

About the repitition in training it was said by those PM masters long gone.

"The training consists of a thousand layers each of a hundred repititions."

This quote comes from the chapter called,

"FASTENING HAND FANCHE THEORY IN BRIEF

Fastening hand fanche is the hand method of mantis.
So called mantis is nothing more than continuously interconnecting fanche and lulu back and forth, as well as fastening and sealing without leaking.
Use iron gate(bolt) as well as (yellow dragon) shakes its tail with such methods as wrapping, sealing, attaching and grasping to change according to the situation.

On touching your enemy's hands it becomes an attack to the four directions and eight sides.
Complete and everywhere, the blocks and strikes are a single action.
{see TJPM da si men on 8 chain punch thread}

The training consists of a thousand layers each of a hundred repititions.
Divide and combine the fists and palms so they are densely spread everywhere.
It is like ten thousand glossy pearls which at once scatter and then return."

BTW,
If anyone has info to add on iron door gate and yellow dragon shakes its tail it would be nice to see.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by SevenStar
warm up

new techniques/drills/footwork

bag/pad work

sparring

That's how every class is conducted where I train bjj, muay thai and judo.

sounds pretty standard for a good non cma school...what do you outside of that?...and how often