It's all Lies!!!!

[manofkent]

Since I started kung fu ive got really intrested in its origins...

However... Everytime I try to reserch I just get tonnes of contradictions. Ive not got time right now to go in to detail but the jist of what i understand says that "ALL" Kung fu Originated at the Shaolin temple "Henan". But other sorces say that the shaolin temple was more of a university for retired warriors.

Pretty much every one says that TaMo came from india and taught them a some sort of healing art (not martial arts), but 1. they didnt let him in untill he sat in meditation for 9yrs, 2. he burned a whole through the wall of a cave with his eyes, 3. they just let him in... what really happened???

Is there anywhere i can find out the true history of kung fu (or as close to the truth as pos)

Thanks.

[apoweyn]

Bit by bit: If I recall correctly, Damo was actually visiting China and the Emperor on an arranged visit. Something about the Emperor wanting to show Damo his "accomplishments" in Buddhism. Rather unlikely that Shaolin would then turn around and not let him in.

But my Chinese history is extremely rusty (and wasn't that sparkly in the first place).

[scotty1]

Basically mate I don't think anyone really knows.

[Mr Punch]

Definitely number 2. The only possible option really.

[Shaolinlueb]

what i know is, kung fu existed long before shaolin temple. but shaolin temple structured it and organized it into systems, thats why it is considered the grandfather of all kung fu's.

[Liokault]

Ok manofkent, heres the low down.....I will only put it here if you promise not to tell anyone else ok?

1/ Not all kung fu come from Shaolin.

2/ Only all the good kung fu came from Shaolin.

3/ Monkey beats the crane every time.

4/ The thing with the eyes and the wall burining, well that was true.

5/ there is only 1 shaolin temple.....but there are other temples called shaolin.....but there not THE shaolin temple.


Ok I belive thats a full list of EVERY truth in kung fu so no one add any more!

[MasterKiller]

Kung fu existed long before Shaolin. Shaolin Temple just collected a lot of the styles and refined them, which is why it is the symbolic sourse of all kung fu, not the literal source. Afterall, Northen Shaolin is derived from the 5 family fist styles.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Shaolinlueb
what i know is, kung fu existed long before shaolin temple. but shaolin temple structured it and organized it into systems, thats why it is considered the grandfather of all kung fu's.


kungfu in China originated with confucious..followed by taoisim then progressed to ch'an buddhism as confucism dies out...the shoalin temple was built to acommodate boddhidharma....;) ...you're right though, damo travelled showing his buddhist ideas and philosophies (including kungfu as a means of running or maintaing best order etc.. a province or people throughout China....he was rejected often before he settled or found a king to accept his ideas...I'll find an article from home and get you some more info. A good book to read if your interested is Terracotta Warriors...
I'll get back yo you
cheers;)

[anton]

Originally posted by manofkent
"ALL" Kung fu Originated at the Shaolin temple "Henan". False. Some categorise CMA into: Buddhist arts(many of which trace their roots to the Shaolin temple - some trace back to other temples... even Tibet), Taoist arts (many of which trace their history to Wudan), as well as village arts developed by peasants from a variety of sources. Although the distinction can be quite tricky to draw, and usually pointless.


But other sorces say that the shaolin temple was more of a university for retired warriors.Shelter rather than University, and if this occured it probably happened later in the temple's history


Pretty much every one says that TaMo came from india and taught them a some sort of healing art (not martial arts), butIndeed everyone seems to agree on this... But as with any piece of history this old, it's shroued in myth and exageration. eg:


1. they didnt let him in untill he sat in meditation for 9yrs, 2. he burned a whole through the wall of a cave with his eyes, 3. they just let him in... what really happened???I don't think him meditating had anything to do with the monks not letting him in. As he was a Mahayana Buddhist, he saw meditation (dhyana - sp?), during which the mind is stripped of attachment and passion, as an essential ingredient in his search for enlightenment. The legend goes that at some stage of his wanderings he sat facing a wall for nine years listening to the ants scream. I think there actually is a wall in a cave somewhere in China which is supposed to have his shadow permanently imprinted into it.


Is there anywhere i can find out the true history of kung fu (or as close to the truth as pos)

Thanks."Kung Fu" is not a martial art, hence it has no uniform history. It is the name arbitrarily given to a whole bunch of separate martial arts, each with it's own unique history, some histories intersecting at times, but not always. The one thing they can all be said to have in common is roots in China. Hence the synonymous term you will often see used on these forums: "Chinese Martial Arts" or CMA.
There are many myths about the early development of "Kung Fu" but when hearing of them one should always:
a) Take them with a liberal dose of salt; and
b) Keep in mind that even if they contain some truth they can only apply to some CMA's, never to all.

[PHILBERT]

Sure you can find the true history of Kung Fu easily. Become arrogant, pick one story and say that is the truth and refuse to listen to anyone else. Otherwise, know that the true history will never be found, just like Jimmy Hoffa's body.

[blooming lotus]

if I knew who jimmy hoffa was, I would probably tell you that was an extremely funny remark :rolleyes: :p

speaking of all lies, I think I was in a rush earlier and gave some false information (thank the experts for pulling me up..I mean for not pulling me up)

ok..In 495 during the Nthn Wei dynasty (386-534), Batuo, an indian monk, travelled to Luoyang (the capital at the time) and met with the emporor Xiaowen, a buddhist believer, ( converted / introduced to buddhism by Damo who had visited previously?..don't quote me on that one though)..and was honoured by having him build and establish the shaolin temple to house him and his few hundred followers to enable them to further Xiao wens' spiritual/philoshical/ strategic interest interests through translation of many buddhist texts and documents.

Damo (bodhidarma) after many years wandering China trying to recruit warring provincial leaders to subscribe to his philoshophies..believing his methods worthy , but having run out of provincial leader support, instead took 9 yrs in what is now know as Damo Cave, to contemplatewhere his philoshies and straegies could be improved to not only be more attractive to these leaders, but cause a means of lasting peace in China especially between fueding states, meditated the evoloution of theravada to Ch'an buddhism.

The dominant religion or belief of this era was Daoism, which at the time held the philosophy that pre-occupation with fighting (including training ) discouraged peace, and therefore leaned more toward meditative arts or practice and nature also. ...as opposed to confucism, the other but less dominant and now dying belief system who believed that health, training and wisdom would be the salvation of this warring country. coincidentally, both confucius and Damo frowned upon interaction with women believing them to have the ability to comprimise a warriors' Yixing:mad: :rolleyes: (ok boys, put em away :rolleyes: ..partonising to both!..no?!)

So anyway, Damo after contemplating these systems, coupled with the (??) hindu / buddhist beliefs he grew up with - devised a system of belief and philosphy known as now as Ch'an or Zen buddhism - core to shaolin belief, to which arose from modified confucism roots, holding kungfu training for not only protection but maximum health for mind and body and the way to peace.

While there has been no written record, it is believed Damo wrote the "Yijinjing "..the base of gong fu or shaolin ma and loosely translated as the one mind mechanism. However, the "yijinjing" has been officially attributed to a daoist priest of Tiantai mountain in 1624, named Zhongheng. Like I said, while no written written "original" text exists, Zhongheng had insisted that the text was originally written by Damo long ago...

so there you have it..draw your own conclusions, and research on..but to date, this what I have ;) :D

[MasterKiller]

When Damo came to China, Buddhism was already prevalent and widely spread. Ba Tuo preached the Lesser Vehicle when Shaolin was founded, but Bodhidharma's message was different, and therefore, rejected when he first came to China.

There is a picture of the meditation stone with his image burned in on this page:
http://www.geocities.com/thirty_sixth_chamber/temple_cave.htm

[stimulant]

http://www.zhenwei.org/History/HistoryMartialArts.htm

[Serpent]

Originally posted by scotty1
Basically mate I don't think anyone really knows.

The only guaranteed words of truth so far in this thread!

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Liokault
Ok manofkent, heres the low down.....I will only put it here if you promise not to tell anyone else ok?
3/ Monkey beats the crane every time.
Most people on KFM beat the monkey all the time! :o
Promise not to tell anyone else OK? :D


Blooming: where did this come from?

kungfu in China originated with confucious..followed by taoisim then progressed to ch'an buddhism as confucism dies out...I've never heard that KF comes from Confucianism before, or indeed that Confucianism had died out in China...

And also this:
So anyway, Damo after contemplating these systems, coupled with the (??) hindu / buddhist beliefs he grew up with - devised a system of belief and philosphy known as now as Ch'an or Zen buddhism - core to shaolin belief, to which arose from modified confucism rootsDid Shaolin start as a Chan sect?
How was Damo influenced by Confucianism?
How is Chan related to Confucianism?...

BTW I'm not trolling, I've just never heard these assertions before. The only one I would actually disagree with so far is the last: I don't see and I've never heard that the fluid nomindedness of Chan was influenced by the ancestor worship and rigid conformity to etiquette of Confucianism... Just wondering.

:)

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
[B]if I knew who jimmy hoffa was, I would probably tell you that was an extremely funny remark :rolleyes: :p

speaking of all lies, I think I was in a rush earlier and gave some false information (thank the experts for pulling me up..I mean for not pulling me up)

ok..In 495 during the Nthn Wei dynasty (386-534), Batuo, an indian monk, travelled to Luoyang (the capital at the time) and met with the emporor Xiaowen, a buddhist believer, ( converted / introduced to buddhism by Damo who had visited previously?..

King Xiaowen was a buddhist long before meeting Damo. Damo came to the court to "enlighten"/convert the king. King Xiaowen asked if his sponsorship of buddhism had brought him great merits to which the great master reply, "no" (good karma, yes; great merit, no). The king felt rebuked and they went their separate ways.

The rest of your theory is debatable, but I don't have damo's biography at hand, so may be another day. But, your observation of waning confucianism influence at the time was probably correct with all the wars/chaos going on around that time.

[Mr Punch]

Ah, ok, maybe I'm being too literal... "dying" = "waning"???

[blooming lotus]

obviously, I have various sources of information but like I said earlier, a good place to start reading is the terracotta warriors. It has quite a bit of information about the evoloution of China through the dynasties including religious developements.....I couldn't even begin to give you a list, because it's just too freakin long and I don't even remember 1/2 my sources.....

As for Ch'an' relationship to confusicism, I believe that it was an insight of Damo's meditation, in consideration of current systems of societal function and belief that led to "evoloution" from theravda to mahayana beliefs, one of which was was ma as a means of personal protection, and health of mind,body, spirit consequentially promoting peace in the environmet those people are inhabiting...

I agree with Serpent to an extent, we weren't there, so it's a matter of what text can or can't you trust...

It does in the terracotta warriors book state several times though, that confucious was the earliest spiritual/religious leader of this capacity and that he had firm beliefs in cultivation of martial skill, which he practiced daily....it also clearly states the periods of incline and decline of confucism and it's evoloution to other branches of belief...I normally double check my facts before I take them on, I'm not 100%, but I'm fairly certain it even gives reliable and official refernces of the authors' sources.....of course, it could be wrong, but if doubt...do your own research and let us all know ;)

[David Jamieson]

My one an only contribution to this thread is:

Don't look to martial artists for historical information. :D Unless the martial artists happens to be a researcher or bonafide historian.

There are plenty of verifiable sources in regards to Ch'an, it's inception and it's spread.

I give the first word of advice because all too often things are drawn from a single source or word of mouth. BOth of which have not much credibility when it comes to regarding it as a fact.

The general practice is to attempt to gain the information from at least 3 unrealetd and uneffected sources.

Confucian, Taoist and Buddhist thought are all intricately woven together in Chinese History. There are buddhist temples which still possess scrolls and records and there is a fairly rich and robust history of China that is available for research. THis research is far apart from the musing of martial artists and the ubiquitos TaMo stories we all here. most of the time the recollection is wrong because it is poorly recollected or incorrectly recollected or just parroted from 100 other sources that are parroting the same thing.

If you say a lie to yourself enough times, ytou just might wind up believing it after all.

So, you can legitimately trace the roots of Ch'an not to TaMo, but to his first disciple Hui ke. THe others that came after Hui ke are pretty well defined historically speaking up to the 5th and 6th patriarchs where there are some misgivings as to which was which and who was the legitimate patriarch of Ch'an.

As for Shaolin, well, the building has been repaired, but there it is, the whole schamoley just sitting there, being all temply in Henan province just a short trip from Luoyang.

While the PRC may have stemmed some info, they didn't stem it all and there are records and history of China that go back as far as when europeans were stiull crawling out of caves and sniffing each others bums. :D


Anyway, Kungfu is not martial arts, it is a modern blanket reference term for chinese martial arts, but in actuality it is a misnomer. The idea behind attaining Kungfu comes through the morals and ethics as taught in the treatises and lectures of Confuscious (Kung Fu tze). The rules for living established by Kungfutze were ingrained into the social more of the chinese empire for 600 years or more before Buddhism became popular in China. The Dhyana were practiced in China long before 520ad (the alleged arrival of the monk Bodhidharma) and Chan and Zen were founded and developed at Shaolin Temple in Henan. THis is the originating place of Zen for the whole world.

The Shaolin Temple also, like any other buddhist temple was a politically active place. People gathered at temple to get their religion, but also for the sangha (community) and they would get their instructions for living a better life from teh priests and monbks. Ergo:the temples were political places because the advice given had to fall in line with the Government pov or the temple would be treading on thin ice.

Anyway, there is a ton of information out there. Just don't look for too much of it from Kungfu teachers. Sure, some of it's there, but it is not the most reliable source for information about history.

cheers