how realistically do you train self defense?

[Shaolinlueb]

I see images online of these "shaolin kung fu" schools. and they are showing self defense techniques using monkey postures and everything...... yeah its good for flash.

but when you train the techniques from the forms, how realistic to you train it? do you stop you punch a foot away from your partner giving him a false sense of distance? or do you go and try to hit them so they can get a sense of how close you are and what happens?

[apoweyn]

Interesting question. Every time I think I've trained something fairly realistically, somebody pushes the envelope a little further. For instance, I thought we were pretty realistic in eskrima because we did a lot of freestyle training with sticks, knives, staffs, etc. (Often without the other guy even knowing what you were carrying.)

Then rogue comes along and relates that a friend of his pulled out a pellet gun in the middle of a sparring match and put two in the other guy's chest.

So it's a lot more complicated than pulling punches. How far do people feel they need to go in training this sort of thing? What do they address? Environment? Psychological reactions? Firearms? Bystanders?

[Shaolinlueb]

interesting point.

Im jsut tlaking 2 partner drilling of techniques whether they be form a form or jsut free style.

yesterday i was doing some self defense. the first couple times i let the punch come maybe 6 inches from my partners face so we could get the tecnique down. after 2/3 times my sifu said "okay now throw the punch to hit him, you can still control the power if he misses, dont let him think someone will always come 6 inches away." so then we started training like that and i was like wow, its nice.

[apoweyn]

Well, I definitely agree that's an important part of the equation. Without that, you're never going to get a very realistic sense. So that's definitely a good starting point.

[Shaolinlueb]

yeah I know. lets see how I improve in a couple months :)

so you trian like that?

[Ray Pina]

Wow, pulling a pellet gun. Those guys aren't fooling around!

I definitely think that is interesting and wouldn't mind someone pulling a paintball gun on me just to test my reaction, but I don't want to invest my time in that direction.

Without a gun and adequate time to react safely and find cover, a gun beats me every time. I do want to ask my teacher to start training me in knives this summer, though. He teaches sword and pole and I want to learn them. But I'm getting confident in my hands and wouldn't mind the added security of being able to wield my Spyderci with equal confidence. Now I just relate my empty hand principles of not fighting capital to capital to the blade.

Back the question: Put the gear on and beat each other. As you learn and are able to protect yourself (head), remove the gear little by little.

[scotty1]

we start by doing the technique 'classically' ie. more like it is in the form and with the attacker being more co-operative.

then it gets quicker, more realistic and probably a bit messier looking as the attacker hits harder and faster or resists against the technique.

obviously I;m referring to applications.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Shaolinlueb
yeah I know. lets see how I improve in a couple months :)

so you trian like that?

Not lately, if I'm going to be completely honest. But when I was first training eskrima, our training was pretty freestyle. I'm saying 'freestyle' vs. 'realistic' for a reason.

We didn't do solely prearranged combinations. We didn't even know going in what the other guy would be wielding. We'd do gauntlet drills where you're surrounded by your classmates and they'd charge you at random with the weapon of their choice. That sort of thing.

But that's still not 'realistic.' It doesn't account for a whole lot of things. And I'm still not sure that my interests lay (as Efist said) in that direction.

At the risk of sounding overly philosophical, I'm interested in truth more than in this "mean streets" world view prevalent in certain martial arts circles. I want what I practice to be substantive rather than complete bollocks. But I don't want the near-paranoid urban jungle mania of many modern self defense systems.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
[B]Wow, pulling a pellet gun. Those guys aren't fooling around!

I definitely think that is interesting and wouldn't mind someone pulling a paintball gun on me just to test my reaction, but I don't want to invest my time in that direction.

You might feel differently about that after you take two in the chest at close range. :)

But I sort of agree with you about the time investment. I think it's an important thing to consider. But as I said in the previous post, the SD worldview just doesn't do it for me.


Back the question: Put the gear on and beat each other. As you learn and are able to protect yourself (head), remove the gear little by little.

Personally, I'm more in favour of keeping the gear and increasing the variables. Obstacles. Weapons of opportunity. Etc.

[Ray Pina]

I think its also important to highlight what Scotty said: It should begin with co-op drills. The other guy should "feed" it to you. Then the gear and beating the hell out of each other later.

Keep it simple. Here's a good rule: if it looks like "Kung Fu" (big sweeping movements and high legs and various animal hand contortions waxing and waning) it probbaly doesn't work. Find a basic shielding structure. Train a way to collapse your foe and a way to pick your foe up when being collasped, or how to roll over him while controlling.

Find a way to enter safely while covering and hitting. You can see these things while co-op training. As you grow in confidence pick up the power.

[apoweyn]

Too right. Sorry Scotty. Didn't mean to gloss over that.

[Liokault]

I think it depends what you mean by selfdefense, also what you mean by realisticaly.

My teacher has for years not claimed to teach self defense, as the term self defense has become a generic term meaning "street aware" and is a term which invokes pictures of unlikely older women using unlikely counters to unlkiely wrist grabs. Above all he does not wish to "sell" a false sense of security.
My teacher claims only to teach TCC that you may or may not be able to use for fighting depending on your personal preferance.


Now having said the above, I feel that we train in a fairly realistic way. Punches are aimed at the head and are ment to land unless you do somthing about it (the hardest part here is getting people to try to hit you properly).
Most of what we do is done against resisting partners and is done on a winner stays on system, with the first priority being on winning (bit contrvertial there) rather than using good form.
Freestyle grappling (standing) is brought in fairly early (first lesson if you like) as is sparring (again if you like first lesson, but if you choose to sparr on the first lesson we really dont expect to ever see you again LOL) and is all fairly rough, with (as I said before) the priority being given to winning over good form.

[Gold Horse Dragon]

I trained very realistic with my Sifu and my students train the same way in my Kwoon...it is the only way to be effective on the street. But, rank beginners should not train this way as they do not have the art yet to do so and may become 'gun shy'...just an expression.

GHD

[Liokault]

Originally posted by Gold Horse Dragon
I trained very realistic with my Sifu and my students train the same way in my Kwoon...it is the only way to be effective on the street. But, rank beginners should not train this way as they do not have the art yet to do so and may become 'gun shy'...just an expression.

GHD


Define realiatic! Im quite sure no one is going to post "well we train in a totaly realistic manner but...." even though most schools are indeed training in an unrealistic way.

GHD what makes your training realistic?
Why do you think your realistic training prepares you for the street?

[rogue]

The more realistically I train for the street the more I realize most people can't train realistically for the street. I thought I had things down when we used a rubber gun but then we started using the airsoft more and I realized how intimadating going against a real gun is. And that's even with me beating the airsoft most of the time. Also the reaction of the guy with the gun changes because of the risk of being shot himself.

[Shaolinlueb]

do you guys consider everything attacks?
hard blocks can be htis too. hmm we dont train with any protective gear, maybe cause of our level, but for some beginer kids i had them start a little far away punch would come like 2 inches away instead of hitting them. makes them react.

[rogue]

But I sort of agree with you about the time investment. I think it's an important thing to consider. But as I said in the previous post, the SD worldview just doesn't do it for me. This coming from a guy who plays with sticks and knives!:p :D

But you are right about the SD worldview, it's a slippery slope. If you're going to train self defense then you have to approach it seriously but also keep things in perspective. That IMO is where you get the most trouble. A ring fighter can realize the efforts of his training but what does a person only into self defense do to test themselves? And why would you want to test yourself that way?

The good news(?) is most people taking self defense are just in it to gain a false sense of security.


The more realistically I train for the street the more I realize most people can't train realistically for the street. For the record I meant to include myself in that group.

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Originally posted by Liokault



Define realiatic! Im quite sure no one is going to post "well we train in a totaly realistic manner but...." even though most schools are indeed training in an unrealistic way.

GHD what makes your training realistic?
Why do you think your realistic training prepares you for the street?
Well I cannot define 'realiatic!' :D ...but I can define realistic...training to defend against situations/attacks one would encounter on the street along with the emotional impact.
Having worked law enforcement as a PI for quite a few years, I encountered many individuals intent on doing you in (I had no, gun, no weapon...just cuffs and of course my art) and encountered all forms of situations...my art stood by me true and effective. My students when having to protect themselves were able to do so with the art I have taught them and it's methods of application as to training in a realistic way. Anyway...this training is secret and if I tell you more, I'll have to kill you :D

GHD

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by Gold Horse Dragon

Well I cannot define 'realiatic!' :D ...but I can define realistic...training to defend against situations/attacks one would encounter on the street along with the emotional impact.
Having worked law enforcement as a PI for quite a few years, I encountered many individuals intent on doing you in (I had no, gun, no weapon...just cuffs and of course my art) and encountered all forms of situations...my art stood by me true and effective. My students when having to protect themselves were able to do so with the art I have taught them and it's methods of application as to training in a realistic way. Anyway...this training is secret and if I tell you more, I'll have to kill you :D

GHD


ooh do tell more :D

[Liokault]

Originally posted by Gold Horse Dragon

Well I cannot define 'realiatic!' :D ...but I can define realistic...training to defend against situations/attacks one would encounter on the street along with the emotional impact.
Having worked law enforcement as a PI for quite a few years, I encountered many individuals intent on doing you in (I had no, gun, no weapon...just cuffs and of course my art) and encountered all forms of situations...my art stood by me true and effective. My students when having to protect themselves were able to do so with the art I have taught them and it's methods of application as to training in a realistic way. Anyway...this training is secret and if I tell you more, I'll have to kill you :D

GHD


So you can't tell us how you train realistically, only how great your art is, with some anecdotal evidence to back yourself up......give some examples please......even if you don't give away deadly secrets.

[manofkent]

Who trains knife techniques with a live blade.

Ive always used a rubber knife for safety, and sometimes put some water colour paint on the blade, so if u get in a bit of a fiddle with ur partner, u can settle the argument easliy.

However, some martial artists say that they always use a live blade, as it makes u more aware of the situation.

[Liokault]

I think live blades have a place, but I question how "realistically" (sorry I'm over using that word) you opponent in your club would attack you with a real blade......especialy when you remember that any real situation with a knife is "probably" going to leave you cut to a certain extent and that a "winning" situation against a knife is one whereby you are not dead or close to it at the end!


We tried the thing with marker pens and white T shirts once........but someone (the guy with the knife LOL) got hurt real fast so we stoped.

[scotty1]

"It should begin with co-op drills. The other guy should "feed" it to you. Then the gear and beating the hell out of each other later."

:D Brilliant. That's what I meant to say.

[stimulant]

It is soooo hard to train for SD realistically

1) you wont have the same frame of mind in training as you would have in a street situation (even with a live blade - your training partner is not going to try and kill you for real even when stabbing you)

2) the spontinaity is lost in a training environment. Even if you use 'suprise' in training the suprise wont last long as you'll soon come to expect it a suprise.



Training classically (but with punches and kicks aimed at, rather than near, your partner) is as good as most other types of trianing. especially if lots of conditioning is done - some people really do have arms like steel bars!

This is quite amusing......A training friend of mine once beat a guy using a plastic milk shake bottle!

[apoweyn]

This coming from a guy who plays with sticks and knives! :)

Yeah well, I was much more "into" the whole concrete jungle thing when I was younger. Now I've come to accept that I'm really just a happy suburbanite. :)

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by manofkent
Who trains knife techniques with a live blade.

Ive always used a rubber knife for safety, and sometimes put some water colour paint on the blade, so if u get in a bit of a fiddle with ur partner, u can settle the argument easliy.

However, some martial artists say that they always use a live blade, as it makes u more aware of the situation.

Live blade?! Nobody I know.

Think about it. Most experts flat out tell you that you'll get cut in a knife fight. So if you're training live blade, one of two things is probably true. 1) You're doing very confined drills and combinations or 2) You're doing relatively realistic drills and getting cut to ribbons.


Stuart B.

[red5angel]

The more realistically I train for the street the more I realize most people can't train realistically for the street.


I agree. You can get pretty close, but you can't do it all. It's like everything else in martial arts, you have to decide what you want and what you don't. You can't train for every situation. I say as long as your enjoying your training and getting something out of it then don't worry about it.

[scotty1]

I agree red5.

As long as you remain honest to yourself and others about your abilities then you can't really go wrong with an attitude like that.

[norther practitioner]

I know that we don't always train all that realistic, but I know that, as does my teacher, which I believe puts us a step ahead of some, a step behind others. I don't mind though.... I enjoy what we do, I'm not looking to fight any time soon, so it is good for me.

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Originally posted by Liokault



So you can't tell us how you train realistically, only how great your art is, with some anecdotal evidence to back yourself up......give some examples please......even if you don't give away deadly secrets.

Oooh...do I detect a trace of sarcasm Lio! You ought to work on your sense of humor...the can't tell statement was just joking around...Shaolinlueb got it :D In fact I really already stated some of it, just not the method so much. I never used the word 'great' for my art... I just said it has stood by me in giving me an effective means of self-defense on the street....but now that you mention it...I think it is very good. So...here is some of it...run through all forms of attack one can encounter in the street as much as possible, develop skill, sensing energy, internal and external strength etc. etc. When the skill is good run through it for as real as possible without actually pounding each other out...it is training afterall not some death match and the student is in the Kwoon to learn, not get beat up.

GHD

[Liokault]

Originally posted by Gold Horse Dragon


Oooh...do I detect a trace of sarcasm Lio! You ought to work on your sense of humor...the can't tell statement was just joking around...Shaolinlueb got it :D In fact I really already stated some of it, just not the method so much. I never used the word 'great' for my art...






So...here is some of it...run through all forms of attack one can encounter in the street as much as possible, develop skill, sensing energy, internal and external strength etc. etc. When the skill is good run through it for as real as possible without actually pounding each other out...it is training afterall not some death match and the student is in the Kwoon to learn, not get beat up.

GHD


No sarcasm was ment, apart from the obviouse humor of the "deadly secrets thing.


But again you tell us very little.

You say you run though all forms of attack one may encounter on the street?

Give an example of a few of the forms of encounter that make your art more "realistic" than the average club.


How do you apply "senseing energy" to a self defense situatuion?

Same with internal and external strength....how is it applicable to self defense?

You say you dont pound on each other.......do you not expect to be hit in the street? How will your students react if the first time they are ever really hit is in a life or death situation?


Now dont get me wrong, I am not ragging on you or trying to make you look bad, but these are valid questions.

[Gold Horse Dragon]

A lot of the questions you ask are very obvious, for example sensing energy is required to know how and when your opponent is moving. I did not say we do not get hit...I said we do not pound on each other. I also did not say my Kwoon is more realistic than another...I said we train realistically and it works as known from direct experience. It would take one wack of writing to describe it all and I for one just don't feel like it. I suggest you go to a good school and find out or if you are in a school ask your Sifu. Thats all.

GHD

[focusedmindz]

You fight how you train. I would not pull my punches during practice for fear of developing bad habits. If you want to refine your technique shadowbox or do forms, to develope speed and power work the pads or a heavey bag, to develope timing and sense of distance yu have to spar.

[Liokault]

Originally posted by Gold Horse Dragon
A lot of the questions you ask are very obvious, for example sensing energy is required to know how and when your opponent is moving. I did not say we do not get hit...I said we do not pound on each other. I also did not say my Kwoon is more realistic than another...I said we train realistically and it works as known from direct experience. It would take one wack of writing to describe it all and I for one just don't feel like it. I suggest you go to a good school and find out or if you are in a school ask your Sifu. Thats all.

GHD


"A lot of the questions you ask are very obvious, for example sensing energy is required to know how and when your opponent is moving. "

Ok yes this is a skill and it is not uncommon in kung fu clubs but what makes it "practical" or your practice of it "practical" ?


I said we train realistically and it works as known from direct experience. It would take one wack of writing to describe it all and I for one just don't feel like it.

I am not asking for a huge amount of text, all I want is to know how you have defined your training as realistic?
I am looking for things here such as "we take it to the edge of what a person can take" or "we use spontaniouse, unexpected senarios" .....things along those lines.


I said we train realistically and it works as known from direct experience.

What experience? How was your training applied? What in your training prepared you for this experiance?

Its all very well saying "I do Kung Fu.....Kung Fu is realistic.......therfore my training must be realistic, but we ate looking for the "hows" and "whys" of realistic in this thread, not just "yeah I do realistic and have been in a fight to prove it".

Again I say I am not attacking you or trying to ridicule you or your your class.....just trying to get some info.

[fa_jing]

I don't like to use weapons because they rob my hands of their sensitivity. My iron skin training makes me invulernable to most bladed attacks, anyway. I practice to catch the blade on the flat side between my two palms - then, I break the weapon.

didn't you guys see that Kung Fu movie from the 70's? The one where one old master eschews the use of weapons and is shown fighting a room full of people with axes and halberds?

:D

[Liokault]

Originally posted by fa_jing
I practice to catch the blade on the flat side between my two palms - then, I break the weapon.

:D


Have you ever read "By the Sword" by Richard Cohen?


Its a history of the sword and of sword fighting though the ages. In the latter chapters it has lots of referances to the use of the hand and of the back of the hand in parrying sword blows/thrusts. It regularly mentions the need to ban hand parrys at various times in regulated (but still trying to kill main) sword fighting.

[Shaolinlueb]

last night when we trained self defense tctics. we had tos tand there relaxed while our parnet could throw a cross, heel kick, roundhouse kick, or hook punch. and all we could do was stand there and watch to recognize it. couldn't block it at all. if it was gonna hit us we could move back, but the partner had to have control. it was interesting. then we just did the tapping drill. the partner was told to come in and we had to step backl and just tap the strike (through recognition) if we missed oh well we got hit. it actually went pretty well. a couple people were missing the taps but people were recognizing the strikes, no one got hurt so it was good.

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Originally posted by Liokault




Ok yes this is a skill and it is not uncommon in kung fu clubs but what makes it "practical" or your practice of it "practical" ?
If you do not have sensing energy, you will not recogize a specific type of attack, how to defend against it and how to counter




I am not asking for a huge amount of text, all I want is to know how you have defined your training as realistic?
I am looking for things here such as "we take it to the edge of what a person can take" or "we use spontaniouse, unexpected scenarios" .....things along those lines.
All forms of training drills to develop the skills. One to one preset senarios. Free sparring - semi contact and close to full contact - semi is without protective gear, other is with gloves. All forms of attack.




What experience? How was your training applied? What in your training prepared you for this experiance?
Already stated in previous posts and see below.


Its all very well saying "I do Kung Fu.....Kung Fu is realistic.......therfore my training must be realistic, but we ate looking for the "hows" and "whys" of realistic in this thread, not just "yeah I do realistic and have been in a fight to prove it".
Being able to defend yourself in many encounters makes a statement in itself that you are doing your training correctly and that it works. Beside...there is much more to kung fu than just fighting...but I understand that this is what this thread is about.


Again I say I am not attacking you or trying to ridicule you or your your class.....just trying to get some info.
Yes I understand...not required to keep stating it :)

Now...what do you do?

GHD

[Liokault]

Originally posted by Gold Horse Dragon

If you do not have sensing energy, you will not recogize a specific type of attack, how to defend against it and how to counter [/B]

So with out sensing energy you would not know some one was trying to stab you? How about boxers.....how do they develope senseing energy? They slip punches all the time!



Originally posted by Gold Horse Dragon

[/B]
All forms of training drills to develop the skills. One to one preset senarios. Free sparring - semi contact and close to full contact - semi is without protective gear, other is with gloves. All forms of attack. [/B]


Indeed, but the above is just a description of a "normal" martial art class. I see nothing geared to self defense here.




Originally posted by Gold Horse Dragon

[/B]
Being able to defend yourself in many encounters makes a statement in itself that you are doing your training correctly and that it works. [/B]

But lots of people who do not even train get into fights and win all the time.....anakdotal evidence is a "kind" of evidence, to miss quote the lawyer off the simpsons. How did your class gear you up for your encounter? Form? Semi contact? Stance work?



Originally posted by Gold Horse Dragon

Now...what do you do?

GHD [/B]

as I stated in my first post, my teacher does not claim to teach SD, only to teach TCC that may or may not be used for fighting......Now I do not like the term SD and I belive that you are miss using SD when you should be saying "fighting".




Over all by the sound of it you have a fairly "normal" MA class. Now my vast knowlage of "normal" MA classes leaves me intriuged as to your self defense credentials.

[Gold Horse Dragon]

You are just not making a lot of sense in your posts in my opinion and you did not say anything much about your training or credentials.
My credentials: http://www.mts.net/~sillum/Index.htm
Again, I suggest you go to your Sifu and ask the questions of him in the same way you did of me and see what you get from him :D
Goodbye
GHD

[Liokault]

Ok, let me put it another way:

You do kung fu.

These days just "doing" kung fu is not considered enough for good self defense.

Self defense is not the same as fighting.

Fighting is not the same as kung fu.

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:


Ok I dont think I can spell it out much clearer!

If you are just doing traditional kung fu with the forms and the one step sparring and the stance work and the semi contact your not training for self defense......maybe your training for fighting but I doubt that......at best your training for the sake of perfecting an "art" but what ever your class is training you for it is sounding from your posts that its either giving you a false sense of security....a real bad thing, or your really missing the point of this thread and are just trying to say how great your class is......thats kind of natural.






As for my cerdentials.


I have been training in TCC for somthing like 15 years.

Competeing in San Shou to international standard for about 10 years (with a w-l-d record of 17-2-1).

And as I stated twice my teacher makes no pretench of teaching self defense.

[Liokault]

LOL I just looked at your web site.

I did indeed find your credentials LOL in the section labled "credentials" NICE (http://www.mts.net/~sillum/blacksash2.JPG) .

LOL are you going to give an attacker a paper cut with that?

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Your posts demonstrate the low level of your maturity. As for your credentials...:rolleyes: ...will not do you much good on the street where there are no rules...but you said it yourself, your teacher does not teach self-defense and real situation/scenario fighting...just sport fighting...so go on with your sport martial art. Nothing wrong with sport martial art, just do not think you can use it effectively in a serious street confrontation.
Your opinions/statements do not make one bit of difference in the effectiveness of what I do, do not affect my kwoon, do not affect my students or anything else for that matter...so post nonsense all you want...you just show your lack of depth in understanding what real and traditional kung fu/marital arts is and is about.
Now go ahead and post...I for one will not be reading them because they just do not make a lot of sense.


GHD

[DeathTouch]

LioKault , 1

GHD, 0


LOL