North American Tang SHou Tao

[Student]

Hello: I trained alittle with some of Vince Black's students in tennessee. We did alot of foo goo gung (i think it's called, can't spell it correctly either). There are of course several low to the groud exercises (duck walk, etc...) i did this stuff for about two and a half years. My knees stayed sore the whole time. They told me the excercises would be good for me. Well, after i stopped, i noticed that my knees are not what they used to be. They make popping noises etc... They're not catching, but they are no longer as healthy as they once were. A few days ago, I was told that some of those exercises reek havoc on the knees, and i may have some tracking problems (where the knees are suppossed to travel in little cartiligenious grooves in the knees. The popping sounds are signs of degeneration. I was told that I could do foo goo gung until i'm 50 years old, as long as I didn't have any problems, but by the time i stopped training and realized that i had problems, my knees were already screwed up. I didn't have those sounds in my knees until after foo goo gung. I haven't done any of those excercises in about a year now, and the condition is somewhat better, but not totally. Has anyone else out there experienced the same thing? Do the knees ever get back 100% again. If I wore away some cartilage, will the cartiliage
totally be reproduced in the body. or am i doomed to knee replacement someday? I would appreciate what ever you all can tell me. Bye

[Sihing Tom]

Student,

Any low grounded exercise, particularly the duck walk, will place a great deal of stress on your knees. If done over a length of time, will lead to irreparable damage to the knee joint and to the tendons and ligaments that are attached to it.

Those Old World horse training exercises have no place in today's modern training environment. The practitioners from the past do not have the knowledge of human physiology that we have nowadays. More is not always better. We only have one set of knees, so its important to train with the understanding that our bodies will break down if we do not train intelligently.

I myself went through the traditional horse training. Often hearing, "do more, lower....it will make you stronger". After a few years, my right knee swelled up, forcing me to hobble around since I could not put much weight on it.

You should do what i did, go find a good Sport Medicine physician.
They are better than your general practitioner, since they are more knowledgable in sport related injuries. My SM physician is an expert on joints, particularly the knee and shoulder. They will most likely prescribe exercises to rehab your joint. Good luck!

[Mojo]

student
Sorry to learn about your problems.

You're refering to Fu Hu Gong, or in english, Lying Tiger Ability. When done correctly leads to greatly increased leg and whole body strength. I'm 47 and have been doing them for many years with great results and no injuries. I've never had a student get injured from these, either.

You had better get yourself to a doctor to check out your knees:(

[Stranger]

Where in TN?

[Brad]

Hey Student,

How often were they haveing you do these exercises?

[Raiden]

Student,

I see you're in Cookeville. I'm in Crossville and looking for a xingyi/bagua class. If you don't mind, drop me an email. I'd like to know what's available in the area.

richlaw99@hotmail.com

Thanks

[Student]

In re questions from Stranger, Brad, and Raiden.


I was doing the exercises at least 3 times per week. Randel Sevier and Steve Poston are the folks you need to hook up with if you want to train there. They are in the Livingston, Monterey area. Another source in the Cookeville area is Steve Randell, the director of the 13th judicial drug task force. 1411 should get you the numbers.

[Raiden]

Student,

In light of your knee problems....would you recommend these guys? Are they all experienced enough to be teaching?

Thanks

[cerebus]

If it's done properly Fu Hu Gung should increase the strength & health of the entire body. The low duck walks & other exercises ARE very strenuous though and should be done with care. You need to make sure to maintain proper alignment in your knees while doing ALL excercises (don't let your knees collapse inward, don't go so low that your thighs go down below parallel to the ground, etc). I began training with NATSTA a year and a half ago. I had problems with my knees, back, neck and shoulders when I began (from years in the Army, as well as years of boxing & full-contact martial arts). In that time, my body has acquired a much greater range of motion and many recurrent injuries from the past seem to have disappeared. Were your instructors trained in Chinese medicine as well? All of mine are and if I have any problems with injuries, I speak to them about it and follow their advice, it's helped me a great deal.

[ShaolinWood]

HI,
I also trained in the old traditional ways, we did some very heavy squats and stances and all of those hectic low drills.

but since we went over to the Chen taiji system we also do low stances but learned alot more about body and leg positioning.

The bionics are very complex and one can judge your stance or excersise on alot of theory, but some simple things that should be taken to mind is:

don't let your knee extent past the tip of your toes, don't squat lower that your upper leg being horizontal, and alway try to ajust your back to compensate for the weight displacement.
These are not cast in stone but can apply as a guideline to various excersizes.
And being warmed up and flexible is ofcourse crucial!!
If your not flexible enough to do a certain stance or excersise then rather take it easy and work on your stretching on the side.

hurting a joint or muscle makes you loose out on alot of training so rather take it slow, you'll get there;)

[shdw]

hello everyone, i have a question for all the NATSTA students, i'm new at this and trying to find a teacher i'm considering a student of tom bisio, he doesn't teach the beginners class his student steve arboletta does, i meet him and he seems knowledgeable, but i was wondering if anyone new of him and how good a teacher he was, or if you know of any good hsing yi teachers in nyc
thanks

[Raiden]

shdw,

I don't know Tom Bisio, but I know of him. In FMA circles he's considered top-notch by many, if not one of the best. I'd bet his CMA skills are top-notch as well.

[cerebus]

Hey there! Though I've not trained with Tom myself, some of my instructors have and they assure me that he is awesome! If you can train under the guy who he put in charge, then do it man. Anyone trained by Vince Black or one of Vince's guys is likely to be top notch! Good luck. T.

[shdw]

hey i want to thank to both of you, for your response, when i spoke to steve he said he gets the students thru the basics because toms movements are so subtle its hard to learn and alot of new students give up so if you get thru with him then you move up and tom takes you as a student, i would also luv to study his style of escrima

[cerebus]

Sweet!! Good luck man! T.