Wing Chun long pole

[Gangsterfist]

How many of you really practice the long pole besides the form?

Do you do wing chun long pole sparring? Combat drills? If so, what type of drills, sparring, and other training methods do you do besides the form?

[taltos]

We do Chi Kwan training, as well as "step-sparring" with the poles in the school.

At home (my wife and I are both learning thr Doa currently), we do a lot of experimentation (i.e. step sparring or chi kwan that was not taught) to "get a feel" for the kwan and it's range/facing considerations on a more personalized level (i.e. "testing the system"). As yet, I haven't been dissapointed.

-Levi

[Gangsterfist]

We don't learn much past the forms at the moment. From time to time we will do drills that involve the long pole.

We don't have any sparring equipment really so we do all our sparring with no pads or gloves. Which makes it hard to spar with the long poles. I have also seen wooden knives as well, and I assume those are used for sparring and drills.

I was thinking of maybe starting to train 2 person drills so I could get a better 'combat' feel for the long pole.

Thanks for the input.

[Ernie]

biiiggg thing with gary , pole is sparred and trained and we even have pole dummy's that move for timeing ,
i persoanlly prefer training philipino weapons over wing chun , but i have seen the structure and power benifits of the pole

we have many two man drills and we do free spar to a controlled degree

and we use some really heavy iron wood or purple heart wood poles
hatem

[Gangsterfist]

I don't think I have seen a pole dummy (assuming its different than the traditional wing chun dummy).

I saw these graphite padded long polls that are used for sparring. Was thinking of looking into something like that so I could spar with them at a somewhat real level, controlled still of course I am not looking to seriously hurt someone or myself.

[Ernie]

http://garylamwingchun.com/photos_3.html

scroll through and you'll see it a few times

they basically work like a weeble wooble one is a cross shape and another behind it is just a striaght board . they both sit in concrete shaped from large woks .

you tap and get the first one swinging , then time as it passes to hit the one behind it , soon there both moving and you really got to be quick:)

[Gangsterfist]

Interesting...

I once saw a dummy that had no legs and it only had one arm. The arm was about chest level and it came straight out but could be moved up and down like a lever. I wonder if it was used for weapons training as well.

The thing is a friend of mine does some ameature film work and has actually released a self budgetted film. He has mostly done comedy skit type stuff, but since we all do martial arts he (and I myself) want to play around with the idea of making some fighting scenes. I was thinking about adding some stick fighting in it, but have never really sparred with sticks per se. I mean I remember being a kid and play fighting with friends with sticks and toy weapons and such. I want it to look flashy so its entertaining, but at the same time be realistic to what would happen in real life. I want to balance it between flashy and realistic. This will be for fun, and it may be a summer project if we can actually get enough people involved to do it.

[Ernie]

funny you bring up film i'm planning some video stuff for the site i'm working on and have a few friends that are pro's hoping they will help me out ,
as for the sticks let me pass on a few very serious gems

one only worry about the defang the snake concept , no disarms or flash twirls , not real life just cut or kill the hand .

second nothing will improve your reflexes ,sesitivity , footwork and timing like stick and knife sparring .

and if you keep your wits about you , you will be able to channel the skills right back to your wing chun/boxing/kicking what ever

since this is a wing chun forum i won't go to deep but remember what i said it has changed me and those i have seen train it correctly soooooo much :cool:

[Gangsterfist]

Thanks for the info ernie.

If we ever make a short action film or kung fu fight I will be sure to put it on the net so you can laugh at how bad we are as actors, lol.

I know wing chun pole is not a flashy pole style like some CMA pole styles, but its the foundation of what I know. We got 2 cameras and a boom mic, a video editing computer, some special FX applications and a DVD burner. So the equipment is there we just need the practice, training, and determination to actually finish it. Stunt fighting will be fun I can't wait to be punched and tossed around and vice versa.

[Ernie]

the only thing holding you back is you ha ha
i'm sitting in my home office right now writing out a story board on the idea's for video clips , looking at my digital camcorder and what dv software i feel like bootlegging :)

i just cracked dreamweaver and am trying to build my site with it , i'm such a criminal ha ha

the pole will give you strucure and power by way of body co ordination
but once you understand and feel the motion you can work it many different ways ,

teach the fisher man to fish , don't just give him a fish
this is the way i see all the skill's and drills wing chun gives us i look beyond it and ask why then i look for different ways how :D


rambling again sorry guys

[Gangsterfist]

FWIW, we use adobe premeire and adobe after effects. For dvd production and authoring we use adobe encore. I have also used video toaster when I was in college, which was a good program. I work in the IT filed so if you have any technical questions reguarding computers you can email me, and I can try and help you out. I haven't done much web developement, but what I did learn was pretty easy ( I learned HTML, PHP, and some java scripting). But that was back when I was in college so I am rusty hehe.

[Ernie]

got premiere 6.5
like sony vegas 4.0 i write my own beats on reasons [ use to be in film score and stuff back in the i wish i was a star days]
use tmpeg to encode
haven't really got the hang of premiere , so i might bug you
i'm the never read the manual type just figure things out as i go along [ adaptability remember]
i got the rough draft of the site up bought halk no video's yet , but i want to keep it on the hush till i get it all together
i'll pick your brain as soon as i have educated questions :)

[jesper]

"I want it to look flashy so its entertaining, but at the same time be realistic to what would happen in real life".

Although I know what you mean, im afraid those two are not compatible. You cant be both flashy and realistic

[Gangsterfist]

I am trying to find a medium inbetween flashy and realistic. If it were real mortal combat situations using real (military type) hand to hand combat each fight would only last a few seconds.

Its not going to be easy so this project (if it ever goes through) may take tons of time to finish.

Who knows though.

[Ernie]

film is the expression of the art not the application , so sometimes you have to draw it out by being a little flashy , besides eye candy is non fat :)

[Gangsterfist]

So to get back on topic what are some good drills and sparring techniques to build up real stick fighting using wing chun pole?

Any other system can be mentioned here as well, the thing with wing chun pole is I am some what familiar with it.

[TjD]

some of the other senior students and i practice chi gwun and a few other two-man pole drills at our school. i dont think i'm really at liberty to describe the two-man drills though since we tend to keep that stuff "closed door."

it's good training for the legs and really shows you how quick and mobile that cat stance is.

good stuff :)

i want to get some foam squishy balls to stick on the end of our poles, because even just playing light they can cause some damage. it would be good to have something to cushion the blow.

for some advice: keep the pole tight to your body.

[anerlich]

For pole sparring:

Get appropriate lengths of the hardest plastic electrical ducting, or water pipe of the right diameter you can find. Pad the ends well with foam covered in duct tape (the straight thrusts are generally the most damaging strikes). The ideal is with enough flex so they don't snap or shatter but not so much that they turn into a whip or other flexible weapon (which is my experience with sports chanbara type weapons). Cricket gloves or Enter the Dragon type fingered gloves will protect the hands, you also want a cricket, kendo or some other type of helmet for eye protection (motorcycle helmets are a bit heavy and claustro for me). forearm, shin and groin protection is not a bad idea either.

We gave up trying to spar hard with wooden weapons after a couple of guys suffered broken fingers and metacarpals.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I do the form and applications occasionally - with my advanced students. By appls. I mean someone takes another pole and strikes with a straight thrust, either high or low - or a round strike, or a double round (they were holding their pole in the middle), or an uppercut type strike, etc.

and the other person defends and counters...or simply attacks before they get attacked...

But with NO contact on the strike.

Once straight thrusted a student right in his throat - fortunately I did it easy and he didn't get hurt; but from then on I decided to do it the way I do it now. (just too dangerous).

Also spend time occasionally doing the same moves with a pole about the size of a broom stick - REALISM. (Good to get experience with the Dragon Pole moves with a household article).

[Gangsterfist]

Thanks for the advice. I don't want to hurt anyone or myself at all. I think I might try to construct some PVC pipe long poles with padding to practice sparring at a hard level.

I guess I could always go watch those SCA (society of chivalry and armory or whatever it is) guys beat on each other. They wear armor though I am pretty sure.

[KPM]

I wouldn't recommend PVC for poles. It is prone to breakage, and when broken can have sharp edges that make it more dangerous than wood. For chest protection look into motocross gear. It is lightweight, breathable and some will have protection for the tops of the shoulders. We have used fencing masks and street-hockey gloves as well. One good drill that requires only gloves and maybe some forearm padding is what we call "hand sparring." Only the hands are a target. It really teaches one good positioning and elusiveness. Don't bother trying to pad the weapon. Using enough padding to make it worthwhile makes the weapon too heavy and changes its dynamic. For some other good ideas explore this website:
http://www.arma.org

Keith

[anerlich]

I wouldn't recommend PVC for poles. It is prone to breakage, and when broken can have sharp edges that make it more dangerous than wood.

You have a point, but we have been using doing this for years with no problems (or breakages under pretty severe pressure) so far. The "prone to breakage" argument is not supported by our actual experience. If you were really concerned, a few layers of duct tape would prevent them shattering, even if not breaking.

With anything like this you still have to have some control, and it is impossible to remove all risks even with weaponless sparring.

Actually this morning I was watching a video on La Canne from a very good savateur in Australia. One of the outtakes had him accidentally shattering the other guy's cane - I'm not convinced this would have happened if both had been using PVC pipes with a little flex in them.

From what I've seen the SCA guys vary a lot from group to group - some guys are really into (and very good at) fighting with swords, quarterstaves, etc., but others are just nerdy types who like poncing about in costumes and playing war and couldn't last a minute if they had to do any real sparring. Shop around.

[planetwc]

I heard that Chen Xiao Wang followed up someone doing a Chen Pole Shaking exercise with PVC pipe and when he did the exercise the pipe promptly shattered.

Of course none of us are the family lineage holder for Chen Taiji, so your mileage may vary. :D

That said, why not just use a good hardwood?

[anerlich]

That said, why not just use a good hardwood?

David, as I said, we tried that but had several busted fingers and metacarpals.

Guess there's no 100% safe solution.

[Gangsterfist]

Well, I got a hold of some info about the local SCA people around my city. I guess I could go check it out, I am sure since I have a martial arts background and am over 18yrs of age I should have no problem hanging out with them. The guy I talked to already seemed pretty cool with the idea of me just hanging out and watching.

My sifu also agreed to teach me some stick fighting before he leaves in the next 4 or 5 months, so maybe I can get some realistic sparring in.

Thanks for all who commented on this thread.

[anerlich]

On a different tangent, I spent a couple of hours on the weekend viewing and reviewing a video on Savate's La Canne by the aforementioned Australian savateur, Craig Gemenier. Pretty good IMO.

Savate also has a longer pole, le Grand Baton (sp?), held and brandished two-handed spear or pool cue style, not on the surface dissimilar to the WC pole. The vid has a short clip of a couple of savateurs going at it with these weapons, and they looked pretty competent (and go pretty hard).

Does anyone have more than passing experience in this weapon/discipline? If so, care to share?

Or for that matter, anyone worked with Uno Baston dos Manos (also called DMS by Hock Hochheim), which I have done seminars on, have tapes, work with and am pretty impressed - though arguably it's qualitatively different since a much shorter stick is used?

Hopefully this may keep an interesting thread going.