bagua sword [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

blacktaoist

03-24-2004, 06:50 AM

Don't take it the wrong way.

I'm not. You don't understand my writing style. I only posted my opinion.:)

In your second paragraph, you say you are confused but seem to answer your own question or wonderment. The problem with "It just a Form demonstration, nothing more or nothing less

You left out the whole paragraph I posted. What I write was:

Its not my problem if the sword real or not, It just a Form demonstration, nothing more or nothing less.

Now I don't see where I seem to be confused in the statement I posted. Because I 'm not asking you a question.:)

You write:

To say that "[i]t just a Form demonstration, nothing more or nothing less" is to devalue the demonstration itself, implying that a demonstration is not a serrious display of martial movement and skill.

In my opinion a form demonstration is not the real thing, and I stand by my viewpoints. I met and encounter many individuals in my life of all ethnic groups that perform spectacular martial art forms demonstration that completely over whelmed people, but soon they try to utilize the martial function side of what they was demonstrating in real time they fall short big time!

The real sword weighs at least five pounds

Doug I’m totally aware of the real Big Dao and how much it weights. I have two real Big Dao myself, that was giving to me when I was training in Beijing China two years ago.

Anyway you write:

The real sword weighs at least five pounds, and a practitioner would not use it the way

In my opinion That depends on who you learned from, and the martial skill level of the BaGua practitioner utilizing the Dao. I encountered and trained with a few BaGua teachers that can easy use the real Dao the same as in the clip I posted. ****, I have footage of a Few BaGua practitiners doing the same movements in the clip I posted with the real Dao.

Doug I have to ask you, have you ever learned any Traditional Big Dao sets? Because I disagree with your statement. For starts the movement in the clip I posted, the BaGua player in the clip was demonstrating a basic movement that is apply in most Big Dao sets. The movement the player was demonstrating in the clip I posted was just sample chopping in four directions with the Dao in such a way with footwork, that the Dao circles the body as to create a protective shield.

There even one Big Dao set that is well practice in Beijing China today by most BaGua Zhang players called four directions. They name the form this, because of the chopping actions of the Dao blade in all four directions working together with the combination of the footwork Kou Bu (hooking step) and Bai Bu (swinging out step), which you can easy see in the clip I posted.

Again what the BaGua player is demonstrating in the clip is the basic chopping actions of the Dao blade in four directions. displaying the combination, or I should say characteristics of Dao & footwork together in combinations. (Coordination):D

Now I do understand your point, and believe me I'm far from taking your viewpoints the wrong way.:)

Peace
BT:)

maoshan

03-24-2004, 01:42 PM

Peace

Doug

(The problem with this demonstration is that the sword is not real. It is a flimsy wushu toy that, I think, distracts more than educates. The real Bagua Dao is much heavier and would not move like a wushu version.)

I don’t think the sword detracts from the performance at all. To the trained eye you can see just what’s going on. A Wushu stylist could not have made that fake sword bend like it did. It’s just a testimony of that master’s power and control.

(What this does is give Chinese martial arts a bad image as well as give the wrong sort of education that such a demonstration would hope to achieve.)

What do you mean by that? China was probably the last culture to hang up their swords, outside Southeast Asia, to make way for the gun. I know for a fact that there where still Sword duals in Taiwan in the 50’s, so I’m sure that the people know the difference between a fake and a real sword. The demo was done in China for the Chinese. They know the difference between contemporary and traditional martial arts its part of their culture. The teachers themselves make that clear. Now as far as the west is concerned you might be right, but it wasn’t made for them. That clip was given to me years ago when a friend returned from China in the early 90’s, and it was 10yrs old then. Too few knew what Ba-Gua was aside from hearing about it at that time here.

(On the other hand, how many demonstrations are given with real swords?)

In privet? All the time. Depends on the teacher.

(I think it says more about the state of Chinese swordsmanship when the "weapon" of choice for a public display is fake.)

I disagree. I think it speaks of the state of the Government. There are many masters that have had their hands tied with the restrictions placed on them and their teachings. True seekers know the difference because they learn through seeking.
From the point of view that I get from you, you feel that because the sword is fake, the master must be fake as well and the duped student will go to him and learn fake things.
Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, it’s the opposite. There have been many Ba-Gua masters that have been Wushu teachers. When they wanted to teach them some of the real, it was the majority of the student’s that only wanted the flash. Many masters lament over this.

(That "the characteristics of the BaGua Big Dao form" are not representative of real use with a Bagua Dao.)

This is wrong! Your statement I mean. The characteristics of any form are supposed to be representative of the true usage of that weapon. The form that was demonstrated was actually a small section of the true form, which is quite long. The technique of Chopping and slicing in 4 directions is common to all Ba-Gua Da Dao sets. The emphasis on Chopping or slicing depends on teacher and lineage.

(The real sword weighs at least five pounds, and a practitioner would not use it the way it is used as demonstrated with a wushu toy)

Now of course you would have to make adjustments because of the difference between the real and the fake blades, but what was demonstrated was real. I’m referring to his body alignment and whole body motion. He wasn’t twirling that sword with his arm but his whole body. That only comes from years of proper training. A Wushu sword feels disgusting in my hands but does that mean that I can’t demonstrate the real form? Not at all, My Da Dao is 5.5’ and weighs 6pds and change; I have footage of Ha Jin Bao doing a set with it. He’s moving so fast that you can hardly see the blade. In the still shots, the blade isn’t even there, and this was using Pro film.
I don’t know, I’m guessing here, but your knowledge of the Broadsword comes from Shaolin, does it not? That’s cool but it’s not Ba-Gua. Tai Chi and Xing-I forms are different from Ba-Gua as well in particular the DaDao. The regular Ba-Gua Broadsword set is comparable to other style sets except for maintaining the Ba-Gua characteristics, which is basically round and tends to slice more than Chop.

(To say that "[i]t just a Form demonstration, nothing more or nothing less" is to devalue the demonstration itself, implying that a demonstration is not a serrious display of martial movement and skill.)

This depends on whom you’re talking about. There are many that can do the hottest forms. They look dangerous but the truth of the matter is that they’re like a gun with no bullets.
(Looks dangerous, but…).
Now skill, What’s a good skill? Not every skill is useful. I’ll illustrate with an old Sufi story:
There was once a king who decided that he would hold a contest to see who had the most unique skill in his land. The prize was a fortune. Many came and demonstrated. The winner was a man who could spit 20 feet into a bucket. The king asked the man how he gained this skill. The man said that he had practiced for 10yrs. The king gave the man his reward but he also had him whipped. When asked why, the King said he had never seen such a waste of time to acquire such a useless skill and that he should have been more productive.
There are many forms champions that can’t fight their way out of a paper bag, but yet they are supposed to be doing Martial Arts, instead their doing art. What is the purpose of the Martial Arts? Today you might get many answers to that question, but there is only one answer. That is to fight! Weather for offense or defense, it’s still fighting. If you’re doing Martial movements you should be able to apply it.
An exception to this would be to see somebody do that form at that speed with Fu Chen Sung’s 30p DaDao. Lu Ji Jian’s Double Broadswords which weigh 20p apiece, master Ma’s 100 pound Kwan Dao. Demos such as these show true skill.
The statement was not meant to devalue the demo, but rather to point out that many can do a form excellently, but it means nothing if you don’t understand it and you can only get that from experiencing it, live. Not step.
The master in the clip is real, this I know. The statement was to you in general, not an assessment of the master’s form.

(." I know that not everyone has an antique, but there are modern reproductions available that are at least close to the real things. But I am not attacking the person in the form anyway; I am commenting on the use of wushu tools in general.)

But what if you weren’t allowed to use the real thing but you had to demonstrate? If you were going to demo, you’d have no choice under the circumstances. Now, if the choice is there, I’m in full agreement with you.

In the end, I’m all for a live blade. The fake stuff just ain’t right, don’t feel right blah, blah, blah.

Just my thoughts

Peace

Maoshan

Doug

03-24-2004, 01:47 PM

"I'm not. You don't understand my writing style. I only posted my opinion."

You sure are confrontational. There is nothing complex or hidden about your style of online discussion. You are giving your misunderstood style of online typing too much credit.

"Now I don't see where I seem to be confused in the statement I posted. Because I 'm not asking you a question."

The question you asked in the second paragraph is implied. By implication, you asked, "What are you trying to get across to me about wushu toys?" When you say that the "weapons" in the video "sure in hell are not made for real combat," you answer this question. That was my point. Now, you are STILL in the process of turning this into a personal attack. Get a clue, please, and drop it. For an internal martial artist, you are awfully quick to negative aggression.

"In my opinion a form demonstration is not the real thing, and I stand by my viewpoints. I met and encounter many individuals in my life of all ethnic groups that perform spectacular martial art forms demonstration that completely over whelmed people, but soon they try to utilize the martial function side of what they was demonstrating in real time they fall short big time!"

Right--when one demonstrates a form, one is not killing someone for real. With weapons, the same idea applies. HOWEVER, the act of using fake weapons (I don't mean an inaccurate reproduction that is off on slighter points--wushu implements are off the scale) gives a greater sense of innaccuracy.

"Doug I’m totally aware of the real Big Dao and how much it weights. I have two real Big Dao myself, that was giving to me when I was training in Beijing China two years ago. "

Good for you! Do you use it for demonstrations?

"In my opinion That depends on who you learned from, and the martial skill level of the BaGua practitioner utilizing the Dao. I encountered and trained with a few BaGua teachers that can easy use the real Dao the same as in the clip I posted. ****, I have footage of a Few BaGua practitioners doing the same movements in the clip I posted with the real Dao."

I am NOT referring to the practitioner's skill; I AM referring to the wushu implement. Using a wushu balde is different from a real one (you should know since you own two). The way the blade moves, its weight, its balance, its construction--everything is different. A new practitioner of Bagua may see this and get the idea that this is a good way to demonstrate the art. In terms of choosing to use a wushu blade, that is a choice for the demonstrator to make. But it is an inaccurate one. Wushu tools just act differently--case closed.

"Doug I have to ask you, have you ever learned any Traditional Big Dao sets? Because I disagree with your statement."

Again, I am referring to the tool used, not the user.

"Now I do understand your point, and believe me I'm far from taking your viewpoints the wrong way."

.....O.K. Even though your post conflicts with this last statement, I will take your word for it.

Doug M

Doug

03-24-2004, 02:10 PM

Maoshan,

"I don’t think the sword detracts from the performance at all. To the trained eye you can see just what’s going on. A Wushu stylist could not have made that fake sword bend like it did. It’s just a testimony of that master’s power and control."

Right--I was not commenting on the man. I was commenting on the tool.

"I know for a fact that there where still Sword duals in Taiwan in the 50’s, so I’m sure that the people know the difference between a fake and a real sword. The demo was done in China for the Chinese. They know the difference between contemporary and traditional martial arts its part of their culture. The teachers themselves make that clear. Now as far as the west is concerned you might be right, but it wasn’t made for them."

Hey, tell us more about the duels!

Yes, this is in reference to the Western audience more than a Chinese audience.

"That clip was given to me years ago when a friend returned from China in the early 90’s, and it was 10yrs old then. Too few knew what Ba-Gua was aside from hearing about it at that time here."

Had this information been provided, my post would have been different. This is an excellent example of something that is taken out of its original context and dropped in another one for a purpose that conflicts with the original. NOW, this clip is clearer. Thank you for pointing this out. The history of something is always important to include with it.

"From the point of view that I get from you, you feel that because the sword is fake, the master must be fake as well and the duped student will go to him and learn fake things. Nothing could be further from the truth."

Wow, I NEVER said that. Check out me posts at www.swordforum.com to see that this is something that I would NOT say. Hey, I did not even know anything about the man behind the blade before you posted something about him. Now that the clip has a certain amount of clarity, I see that I would have said something in my original post to oppose the message that you got from my post.

"In the end, I’m all for a live blade. The fake stuff just ain’t right, don’t feel right blah, blah, blah."

See, this is all I am saying. I am just filling in more of the "blah, blah, blah."

Doug M

Walter Joyce

03-24-2004, 06:27 PM

Great posts gentlemen.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

blacktaoist

03-24-2004, 07:05 PM

Dong anyone can see I explain myself very well in my last post to you, so it seem you are the one with the problem.

You sure are confrontational.

You must be talking about yourself right Doug!:D

I am NOT referring to the practitioner's skill; I AM referring to the wushu implement. Using a wushu balde is different from a real one (you should know since you own two). The way the blade moves, its weight, its balance, its construction--everything is different. A new practitioner of Bagua may see this and get the idea that this is a good way to demonstrate the art. In terms of choosing to use a wushu blade, that is a choice for the demonstrator to make. But it is an inaccurate one. Wushu tools just act differently--case closed.

I do know Dong. So please post information or something I don't already know!

Now, you are STILL in the process of turning this into a personal attack. Get a clue, please, and drop it. For an internal martial artist, you are awfully quick to negative aggression.

I think its all in your mind Dong. So get a clue this is a martial art discussion forum where people post they viewpoints which is open for debate. But from the way it looks on this forum just because I post a few of my viewpoints, which seem to aggressive for you to handle, you are quick to assumed I taking what you have to say so personal.

In a way I am struck with amazement of your assumption of me, being you never met me or talk to me in your life in person, that you seem to be able to tell me what the hell I'm thinking and feeling mentally and emotionally over the internet. But hey it seems a lot of you internet cats can go beyond the PC dimension. ..Hahaha:D

Just ****ing with you Dong...SMILIE:) and hit a little ***** and you be alright.:) Don't take this discussion so hard man, I'm only having fun because I'm bored.:o

blacktaoist

03-24-2004, 07:26 PM

Peace Walter Joyce,

What you been up to these days in your training? As for me I been training a lot these days. I can see nothing has change up here on KungFuline. O well good to be back home...Hahaha:)

Hey there a Kung Fu tournament this saturday in Akron, OH, I be there, so any of you kungfu on line heads that live in that area, we can meet up and play a little.:) Push hand /spar

Here the link to the Tournament:

http://www.snakefistclan.com/pages/7/index.htm

Doug

03-24-2004, 08:39 PM

Hey, thanks for proving my point about you. Keep it up!

DOUG

Walter Joyce

03-25-2004, 08:01 AM

Originally posted by blacktaoist
Peace Walter Joyce,

What you been up to these days in your training? As for me I been training a lot these days. I can see nothing has change up here on KungFuline. O well good to be back home...Hahaha:)

Hey there a Kung Fu tournament this saturday in Akron, OH, I be there, so any of you kungfu on line heads that live in that area, we can meet up and play a little.:) Push hand /spar

Here the link to the Tournament:

http://www.snakefistclan.com/pages/7/index.htm

Peace BT,

Nice clip, Yeah KFO, the antihtesis of BGZ, no changes. ;)

I've been staying on track, lots of ji bengong, tien gan and circle walking. Using a weighted vest sometimes too. Been kicking this monster heavy bag as well. Looking for someone to train with in the Boston area for partner drills, and waiting for Luo lashi to come back. Still hitting 5-6 dats a week, one day of rest, although I'm thinking of just doing circle walking on the rest day.

Nice posts, from Ben as well.

Walter

maoshan

03-25-2004, 11:08 AM

Peace Walter

Thanks for the props. How's life been treating you?
For me, it's all about getting ready for this years Annual All Ba-Gua event. Other than that, maintaining my class and training when I can. Also,preparing to travel for other up coming events including going to Ohio this weekend.

Peace

Maoshan

bamboo_ leaf

03-25-2004, 01:50 PM

True seekers know the difference because they learn through seeking.

very cool, very true ;)

blacktaoist

03-25-2004, 02:17 PM

Hey walter,

Good to hear you are doing your thing, and developing your martial skill. Right now I'm training a lot of Qigoing stuff and push hands, I still hit the bag from time to time..:)

Walter being that you like the first clip I put up on my website. I sure you love this next clip I just put up. This clip is old, but you be able to see what going on. This BaGua player is demonstrating with a real big Dao, no Wushu sword here...:) You also notice the chopping in four directions.

http://www.blacktaoist.com/BaGua%20broadsword%202mov.html

For you Kungfu on lines heads that don't like rap, deal with it.:)

backbreaker

03-25-2004, 02:24 PM

Whao! Awesome video.

looking_up

03-25-2004, 02:45 PM

Ha, I thought the radio station on my iTunes started playing KRS-1, but when I stopped iTunes the song kept on playing!

Walter Joyce

03-25-2004, 02:53 PM

Ben,

If at all possible schedule-wise I want to make your tournament this year. I'll be looking for the info as you post it. I'd love to meet you and BT, plus seeing a room full of ba gua players would be sweet.

BT

That clip was off da hook, the music was perfect

Peace
Walter

Paul_E

03-26-2004, 01:29 AM

"Lu Ji Jian’s Double Broadswords which weigh 20p apiece, master Ma’s 100 pound Kwan Dao."

Hey Maoshan, who are these two gentlemen? Can you give a little background? (I like biographies of past masters.)

Thanks

That clip was nice!!! Soundtrack and everything. Woke me up.

Doug

03-26-2004, 02:10 AM

Where did this video clip come from?

Who is the man with the dao?

Are you certain the sword is real? The footage is not so clear that one can readily distinguish the sword from a real one or a spring steel one. Hey, it's just a question!

As everyone can see, this sword plays differently than a wushu one.

This is an interesting demonstration. Thanks for posting it. However, if you have extra information about the links you provide, please include that with the links as well. Such explanation can clarify things quite a bit.

Doug M

blacktaoist

03-26-2004, 09:32 AM

Where did this video clip come from?

Beijing China :) my Teacher gave me the video tape of hours of footage of A BaGua small town tournament competition as a gift. The balde on the Dao in the clip is real, because for one the tournament was not a BaGua WuShu competition. Two none of my BaGua Teacher martial art brothers train with WuShu toys. (LOL)

Who is the man with the dao?

One of my BaGua teachers martial art brothers. This is why I have footage of him. I don't know his name right off the back right now, But one thing I do know he play Traditional BaGuaZhang.

Are you certain the sword is real? The footage is not so clear that one can readily distinguish the sword from a real one or a spring steel one. Hey, it's just a question!

The sword is real that's my answer. :)

Peace

Doug

03-26-2004, 02:59 PM

Originally posted by blacktaoist
The balde on the Dao in the clip is real, because for one the tournament was not a BaGua WuShu competition. Two none of my BaGua Teacher martial art brothers train with WuShu toys. (LOL)

The sword is real that's my answer.

Well, none of this guarantees that this sword is not wushu or spring steel. Look, I am not knocking on any skill; I am merely pointing out the difficulty of determining real from not real. In some cases, one can go by opinion, but given the age and date of this video, opinion does not count for much unless one was there. Do you have any footage of you using your real Bagua Dao in a similar fashion? I would like to see that (then, I could refer others to that link--win-win situation). Do you practice with it in a similar fashion (footwork, speed of movement, etc.)?

I talked to another Bagua practitioner about this clip, and he also finds the realness of the sword questionable. He uses a 4.5 pound Bagua Dao for his practice and finds similar difficulty with the clip as I did.

Again, I am just talking about the tool, not the user.

Doug M

blacktaoist

03-26-2004, 04:19 PM

Do you have any footage of you using your real Bagua Dao in a similar fashion?

No. I train the Big Dao for power development, then for show. personally man, I don't have to prove anything to you about the clip I posted. If you want to think the Dao is a Wushu sword, you have a right to your opinion. I don't have time for this back and forth debate with you , which in my opinion is keeping boring. Believe what you want to believe.

Peace

Brad

03-26-2004, 08:32 PM

The blade seems to have some flexability(not sure if this is normal or not... don't own any "real" swords myself), but it's defenitely more solid than the cheap $35 wushu steel that you get today. If it were cheap wushu steel, a blade that size would be flopping around like crazy. You can even see the thickness of it in a few points on the video.

BTW, is there anywhere online that a real Bagua sabre can be purchased?

cerebus

03-26-2004, 09:12 PM

Heh, heh. Of all places, Cold Steel Cutlery actually has a combat steel Bagua Dao. It ain't cheap, but it looks like the real deal. Take a peek. ;)

Doug

03-27-2004, 01:30 AM

There actually is a place online that sells heavy Bagua Dao. I am kicking myself right now for not saving the address. I will try to find it. It might be somewhere on this forum, so you may want to check here first. I forget where I got the link, but it was definitely on a discussion board.

This link has some sword applications in frame-by-frame clips. You need to go to the "Pa Kua" section.

http://www.chiflow.com/

The Cold Steel Bagua Dao looks like the Lung Chuan 32" combat broadsword offered here. What do you think?

http://www.coldsteel.com/csstoreonline/willeafsworb.html

http://store6.yimg.com/I/martialartsmart_1781_2839780

Compared to the Kris Cutlery dao...

http://www.kriscutlery.com/chinese/index.html

...AND compared to the antiques...

http://www.sevenstarstrading.com/03furnf.htm

The dao does seem to be stronger than a wushu version, but I am unsure if it bends too much. I just edited this post and still cannot find the link. I think it is on this forum somewhere.

And here is one more link to a famous practitioner from advertisements with a Bagua Dao:

http://site.netopia.com/bagua/nss-folder/pictures/DrPainterbaguado.jpg

Doug M

doug maverick

03-27-2004, 11:06 AM

i have the dao displayed in this pick:
URL:http://site.netopia.com/bagua/nss-f...nterbaguado.jpg

it wobble at the tip just like bt's gung fu uncle's but it's still made out of steel and it's about four pounds, it's light as hell to me now but when i first bought it(i was about 16 or 17) it was a bit heavy and hurt my wrist after a few movements. i'm trying to find a heavier one (10lbs would be nice), i actaully saw one made outta black steel here in nyc's china town. i wanted to buy it but i was short on cash bout time i went to get the money come back(20 or 30 minutes) someone scooped it up. the chinese guy told me it was a special edition and he doesn't get it that often. i've tryed to track it down on the net but couldn't.

maoshan

03-29-2004, 07:11 PM

Peace

Doug

(Hey, tell us more about the duels!)

Robert Smith mentions them in his books. The Hung Brothers were well known as a ref’s for these matches, Hung I Sheng more so then Hung I Min, Allen Pittman’s Teacher.

bamboo_ leaf

Thanks Guy!

Walter Joyce

I look forward to meeting you as well. As soon as I know, you will.

Paul_E

("Lu Ji Jian’s Double Broadswords which weigh 20p apiece, master Ma’s 100 pound Kwan Dao."

Hey Maoshan, who are these two gentlemen? Can you give a little background? (I like biographies of past masters.)

I’m on my job right now, so I don’t have access to my notes but, Master Lu Is a E-Mai Taoist And Ba-Gua Successor, under whom I can’t remember at this moment. He is also Yuan Ming Zhang’s Ba-Gua Teacher who is also his Ba-Gua successor. Right now he is 111yrs old and still teaching.
Grandmaster Ma Was a 62-63 Generation Shaolin Lohan stylist through Bai Yu Fung’s Lineage.
As soon as I get a chance, I’ll Dig up the info on him and Lu and post it.

Doug

(Are you certain the sword is real? The footage is not so clear that one can readily distinguish the sword from a real one or a spring steel one. Hey, it's just a question!)

I can attest that the Sword is real. These people take their training extremely serious.
They take the term “You have to eat bitter” to the next level.

(I talked to another Bagua practitioner about this clip, and he also finds the realness of the sword questionable. He uses a 4.5-pound Bagua Dao for his practice and finds similar difficulty with the clip as I did.)

Why????
You mention the weight of his Dao, Is this to imply that he couldn’t move that fast with a 4.5-Pound Dao, so the guy in the clip couldn’t do it either?
Just asking, because if that is the case, 4 ½ pds is light. This weekend while in Ohio, I had the opportunity to see and hold Sifu Tony Yang’s Ba-Gua Dao And Deerhorn Knives. His DeerHorns are the baddest pair I’ve ever seen and their very real. The feel of them was beyond words. As for His Dao, It turns out that he and I have the same one. And by the way, the last time I posted I Said that my Dao was 6 pounds and change. I was wrong; it’s around 10 pounds at 5ft 5in. Tomorrow I’m going to post a picture of me holding it next to the common commercial Ba-Gua Dao.
Anyway,
Please explain what the difficulty was that you and this Ba-Gua practitioner had with the clip. Was it the weight of the blade or the combat readiness of the blade or both?

As for the links, Those Dao’s are the commercial sizes, just made with real blades. I’ll post the pictures.

Peace

Maoshan

Doug

03-30-2004, 04:05 AM

Maoshan,

-------------
I can attest that the Sword is real. These people take their training extremely serious.
They take the term “You have to eat bitter” to the next level.
--------------

Yes, I believe you about the masters. I never challenged anything about the people. But just because master is a master does not mean that he uses the real thing every time. You will notice that many masters pose with fake weapons all the time in magazines and journals. Master Pan Qin Fu is credited with using his skills to take out whole gangs, and he punches steel a thousand times a day; yet the same video shows him using wushu weapons in his own school to demonstrate a form. Tai Chi Chuan masters are highly skilled, but they pose in T'ai Chi Magazine with wushu things quite often. THIS is what I am addressing. And, in terms of the Bagua dao, I am only referencing the video, not any other source. So you need to understand the angle from which I am looking at.

----------------
(I talked to another Bagua practitioner about this clip, and he also finds the realness of the sword questionable. He uses a 4.5-pound Bagua Dao for his practice and finds similar difficulty with the clip as I did.)

Why????
You mention the weight of his Dao, Is this to imply that he couldn’t move that fast with a 4.5-Pound Dao, so the guy in the clip couldn’t do it either?
Just asking, because if that is the case, 4 1/2 pds is light. This weekend while in Ohio, I had the opportunity to see and hold Sifu Tony Yang’s Ba-Gua Dao And Deerhorn Knives. His DeerHorns are the baddest pair I’ve ever seen and their very real. The feel of them was beyond words. As for His Dao, It turns out that he and I have the same one. And by the way, the last time I posted I Said that my Dao was 6 pounds and change. I was wrong; it’s around 10 pounds at 5ft 5in. Tomorrow I’m going to post a picture of me holding it next to the common commercial Ba-Gua Dao.
Anyway,
Please explain what the difficulty was that you and this Ba-Gua practitioner had with the clip. Was it the weight of the blade or the combat readiness of the blade or both?
-----------------

I mentioned nothing about the speed of his movements. But do you move at that speed when you practice? How much physical strength is involved in such a form for Bagua than, say, Hung Gar? Does the blade move as fast as a wushu blade would?

Right you are about the weight. In a real dao or jian, for instance, the weight is not such a big deal if it is balanced and forged in the traditional manner. There certainly is a difference with contemporary, mass-produced swords. Well-known exponents of Chinese weaponry have informed me that the dao of this type that they have handled weighed at lest five pounds, but the weight was not noticably heavy in the hand.

Problems with the clip:

1) lack of clarity with the picture: unable to tell if the blade is real, and because of this,

2) the blade seems to move: although not moving about as a wushu blade, this one does seem to flex more than a real Chinese sword should. Traditional Chinese dao and jian had a little flex but not like a European long sword would or the "spring steel" offered with Chinese weapons. And because none of this is clear,

3) there is no way to tell if it is combat worthy or not: we cannot go back in time to check, and without further information to support such a claim, how can it be answered?

As I stated earlier, opinion is one thing; proof is another. I asked another forumite here to post video of him using his dao, and he declined. I am not saying one cannot use it as fast as in the last couple of video clips; I have not seen someone do that yet. And to believe that the dao is real with only an opinion, WITHOUT any other background, is a leap. There is nothing wrong with questioning the validity of a source when that source is in question.

Mystifying a weapon is pretty easy. Not long ago, Kung Fu Magazine had an article on Bagua with one person holding a Bagua dao and another with a Western military saber (to show what the article called an obvious advantage over the saber). It also described a famous Bagua practitioner who was known as the "whirlwind of death" with blood splattering everywhere when he used his Bagua dao during the Boxer Rebellion. If this really happened, no one talks about it or has printed it anywhere. One would think this would have made a historical note in the many texts available on the Boxer Rebellion. It is a legendary skill which, possibly real, is undocumented and treated with generalizations. It is up to current practitioners to discover the truth about it (if they care), but taking something with mythic proportions as truth is taking a mythic jump into a void. Such things should be sought after and studied, not developed and, then, kept secret or forgotten.

Do not take this the wrong way. I am fascinated by the Bagua dao, but seeing it demonstrated with a flimsy toy is not appealing to me nor representational of real weapon usage (it is not a real weapon after all). Beside that, so much of martial inheritance and culture is based on martial misconceptions. Challenging wushu weapons as a demonstration of Chinese weaponry itself aids in challenging these misconceptions. To question is to make a stronger connections with one's very sense of the world and his relation to it. To question is to be alive within one's traditions.

------------------
Tomorrow I’m going to post a picture of me holding it next to the common commercial Ba-Gua Dao.
-------------------

O.K. Thanks. If possible, could you compare the flex of the "real" one you have with that of the commerical version? You wouldn't, by chance, be able to post video of yourself with your prize version, would you?

Doug M

maoshan

03-31-2004, 11:40 AM

Doug

(in terms of the Bagua dao, I am only referencing the video, not any other source. So you need to understand the angle from which I am looking at.)

First, this is our teacher you’re talking about. He gave us the video. Are you saying that he lied to us?

(But do you move at that speed when you practice? How much physical strength is involved in such a form for Bagua than, say, Hung Gar? Does the blade move as fast as a wushu blade would?)

Well…. yes, I do.
That question is loaded. Why? To a beginner who has not integrated the whole body concept will use the power of their arm and burn out quick. Using whole body power, energy consumption is minimized actually allowing you to use more power as applied to motion.
Hung Ga is not a good example to use. How do you compare the arm to the body when it comes to generating power?
On the norm, a Wushu blade will move faster because it’s paper, but find the right practitioner that trains to use it for real such as the blade fighters of south east Asia and I believe that answers your question.

But why haven’t you answered mine? What is it that you and this Ba-Gua practitioner question?

(Well-known exponents of Chinese weaponry have informed me that the dao of this type that they have handled weighed at lest five pounds, but the weight was not noticably heavy in the hand.)

To a strong practitioner 5 pounds is not even noticeable. And that’s by today’s standard. Fu Chen Sung’s Dao was 30 pounds and he moved as if he had a normal broadsword.

(2) the blade seems to move: although not moving about as a wushu blade, this one does seem to flex more than a real Chinese sword should.)

Chinese swords have always been strong and flexible. You have heavy steel and flexible. An example of heavy is the Kwan Dao. As for the broadsword, I’ve seen a few variations in terms of what is combat steel.
Some were thicker than others. Fu Chen Sung’s sword was thick and thinned out at the end. Li Cung Yi’s on the other hand, because it was shorter, was thicker. Now also keep in mind that in the old days, all weapons were custom made, tailored to suite the practitioner.

Back to the topic, it seems to me that your stuck on the thick heavy king author style of blades. What about the French Fencing sword? Tuff and flexible. The sword might have bent somewhat, but not much. In particular because of the type of form he was doing. The character of the set was one of slicing more so than chopping, and being that the Ba-Gua Da Dao’s purpose is slicing; it should be thin at the end.

I have a friend who knows the extremely rare Northern Wu Tai Chi style who is also a sword collector. This guy spends crazy money on antique swords and some of them from the 19th century were quite flexible. All he collects are Chinese swords. I don’t a lot about grading them, but I do know the difference between a fake and a real sword.

(Traditional Chinese dao and jian had a little flex but not like a European long sword would or the "spring steel" offered with Chinese weapons.)

The Da Dao is not like the traditional broadsword, if it were, it would be too heavy to use.
Take a look at these pictures:

http://www.chikungintl.com/images/DaoCompare.jpg

http://www.chikungintl.com/images/HaJinBao.jpg

Look at the size of the traditional on the left as opposed to the commercial on the right; now you tell me, should that broadsword be made proportionally the same? If it were, trying to train with it, with out being a master, would cause you to violate the principles of the Internal constantly, which would make the practice moot.
Look at the way Ha Jin Bao is sinking with the weight of the traditional, (and that’s a big dude. 6’5) you can’t see it in the picture, but it’s making him work. There were points in his demo that the blade disappeared. But that was after a build up.

(3) there is no way to tell if it is combat worthy or not: we cannot go back in time to check, and without further information to support such a claim, how can it be answered?)

Again, are you saying that our Sifu lied to us? I trust his word. That’s all I need. I’ve known him too long to doubt him. But of course, you don’t know us and only have what we’re telling you. But like Novell told you before, “ believe it or not, it’s you’re choice”. Trying to prove it too you is a waste of time. The sword is in China so it can’t be presented to you for your scrutiny.

(As I stated earlier, opinion is one thing; proof is another. I asked another forumite here to post video of him using his dao, and he declined.)

Look guy,
We’ve been putting more up on our sites beyond the basics for sometime now. We don’t do clips at request. Are you paying for this? Why don’t you post one of your self-demonstrating your sword?
We prefer the open hands, but weapons train certain attributes so we learned them. I learned them just for the purpose of teaching. Along the way I discovered some that I liked, which is the specialty weapons of Ba-Gua, the exception is the spear, my weapon of choice. But I digress.
You do a video. What’s your style anyway?

(I am not saying one cannot use it as fast as in the last couple of video clips; I have not seen someone do that yet. And to believe that the dao is real with only an opinion, WITHOUT any other background, is a leap. There is nothing wrong with questioning the validity of a source when that source is in question.)

This is not an opinion! Our Sifu told us so. That’s it.

(It also described a famous Bagua practitioner who was known as the "whirlwind of death" with blood splattering everywhere when he used his Bagua dao during the Boxer Rebellion. If this really happened, no one talks about it or has printed it anywhere. One would think this would have made a historical note in the many texts available on the Boxer Rebellion.)

The person being spoken of is Xing-I/Ba-Gua master Li Cung Yi. Let me ask you this, what do you know about Southeast Asia during WWII? Do you how the term “Leatherneck” came into being? And if you don’t, why don’t you know about it? Some of the most incredible personal battles in history have not been documented because, for some unknown reason, the one doing the unheard of is on the losing side.
Do you know how much truth has been omitted from history? It’s almost to the point that the majority of the planet is living and believing a complete lie. I don’t follow or perpetrate myths, nor do I believe in everything written or not written. The fact that it’s not in a book does not make it not so.

(Something with mythic proportions as truth is taking a mythic jump into a void. Such things should be sought after and studied, not developed and, then, kept secret or forgotten.)

I agree, but what does that have to do with what we’re talking about? There has been no myth pushing on our part. It’s been said that the skill level of the old masters is not as we’ve been told, I disagree, I seen too much in our time and know that they don’t compare to the guys of yesteryear. So it depends on you.

(Do not take this the wrong way. I am fascinated by the Bagua dao, but seeing it demonstrated with a flimsy toy is not appealing to me nor representational of real weapon usage)

I agree

(Beside that, so much of martial inheritance and culture is based on martial misconceptions. Challenging wushu weapons as a demonstration of Chinese weaponry itself aids in challenging these misconceptions.)

I hear you. I think this applies to those that are pushing contemporary as if it’s the real.

(To question is to make a stronger connections with one's very sense of the world and his relation to it. To question is to be alive within one's traditions.)

I totally agree.

(O.K. Thanks. If possible, could you compare the flex of the "real" one you have with that of the commerical version? You wouldn't, by chance, be able to post video of yourself with your prize version, would you?)

These pictures were taken about 3yrs ago and the quality is not that good (the comparison).
The better shot is with Ha Jin Bao.
I’ve never video taped myself with the Da Dao, and while I do plan to do one, with all that’s on my plate at this time with the tournament and all, it won’t be soon, besides it will be for sale. We give too much info as it is. And I’m not giving away what I worked so hard for to Internet warriors that want to seem like their good. Not saying that you are one of these, but I don’t know that either. Hope you can understand this.

Peace

Maoshan

backbreaker

03-31-2004, 12:37 PM

I have straight sword that use to practice kunlun sword and it is a brand called longquan. Is that a good kind?

Doug

03-31-2004, 08:00 PM

Backbreaker,

I am sorry, but I do not know enough about Kunlun sword. It may have specific requirements that I am unaware of.

Are you refering to the types sold here are martialartmart.com? I think those are fine for practice. They will be heavier than the originals and not set to the same balance, but they will work. If you want the feel to be right, though, I would seriously consider ana antique. It will last you a lifetime if you care good care of it and will give you more for the moeny you pay for it.

Have you thought about a Kris Cutlery Gim or Jian?

If you cut with anything, make sure it can handle the stress. Cold Steel dao and jian are pretty good. Not to be pessimistic, but if it breaks, the worst thing for the sword is that you can easily find another of the same type--not so the old stuff.

You can also try www.sevenstarstrading.com for an antique (which, surprisingly, are not that expensive--more than Cold Steel but not more than Bugei prices).

I highly recommend going to www.swordforum.com at the Chinese sword forum to look through past threads. There are many good discussions there as well as knowledgeable people.

Good training,

Doug M

Doug

03-31-2004, 08:06 PM

Maoshan,

-----------------------
(in terms of the Bagua dao, I am only referencing the video, not any other source. So you need to understand the angle from which I am looking at.)

First, this is our teacher you’re talking about. He gave us the video. Are you saying that he lied to us?
----------------------

O.K., so a bit of background information actually comes out! See, this is WHY more context must be provided in order to avoid assumptions like the one above. I will address this issue further down, but I never said he lied. How would I know he lied or did not lie? I had no idea who he was or what the connection was that he had/has to members here. Clarity please.

---------------------------
(But do you move at that speed when you practice? How much physical strength is involved in such a form for Bagua than, say, Hung Gar? Does the blade move as fast as a wushu blade would?)

Well…. yes, I do.
That question is loaded. Why? To a beginner who has not integrated the whole body concept will use the power of their arm and burn out quick. Using whole body power, energy consumption is minimized actually allowing you to use more power as applied to motion.
Hung Ga is not a good example to use. How do you compare the arm to the body when it comes to generating power?
---------------------------

The question is not loaded. Just explain your perspective to the best of your typing ability for an online forum. There is no trick involved here.

Your question here is unclear. Could you specify it more?

------------------------------
On the norm, a Wushu blade will move faster because it’s paper, but find the right practitioner that trains to use it for real such as the blade fighters of south east Asia and I believe that answers your question.
----------------------

Are you saying that wushu blades can be used as real weapons (or are you referring to the speed of use with real weapons)? Please explain what you mean.

----------------------
But why haven’t you answered mine? What is it that you and this Ba-Gua practitioner question?
----------------------

Please pay attention. I CLEARLY stated in my last post what I questioned in the part that started with "[p]roblems with the clip". I numbered it with three steps. The answer is there: please refer to it again.

------------------------------
(Well-known exponents of Chinese weaponry have informed me that the dao of this type that they have handled weighed at lest five pounds, but the weight was not noticeably heavy in the hand.)

To a strong practitioner 5 pounds is not even noticeable. And that’s by today’s standard. Fu Chen Sung’s Dao was 30 pounds and he moved as if he had a normal broadsword.
------------------------------

A thirty-pound sword is quite heavy and most likely used for practice. A weapon like that would not be reasonable in battle. Have you ever handled an Olympic weight bar or a thirty-five-pound plate? Given, there are definite differences in balance, but that is heavy regardless of balance. However, things may be different in Bagua.

I know that Tai Chi Chuan practitioners use their chi (ideally, I know, but there are plenty of people who claim to only use their chi, not physical strength, to use the weapon). Please refer to the book Chinese Swordsmanship: The Yang Family Taiji Jian Tradition for further perspective. The author of that book is a long-time teacher of Tai Chi Chuan and an antique dealer. Out of all the antique weapons he has handled, the heaviest jian weighed five pounds, and that was for practice. Bagua is a different art, but the principles of energy usage apply to both arts. The reason I asked about "[h]ow much physical strength is involved in such a form for Bagua" is because I was and am curious as to how much physical strength is involved. Please address this question of mine with more detail. I would appreciate it.

--------------------------------
(2) the blade seems to move: although not moving about as a wushu blade, this one does seem to flex more than a real Chinese sword should.)

Chinese swords have always been strong and flexible. You have heavy steel and flexible. An example of heavy is the Kwan Dao. As for the broadsword, I’ve seen a few variations in terms of what is combat steel.
---------------------------------

These represent the misconceptions that most people have about Chinese weapons. Where do you get your information? Please provide this to give me a better idea from where you get these ideas.

Chinese swords were strong, but flexibility was not exceptional. To what degree do you think they were flexible?

The steel was strong, not heavy. Refer to the book Chinese Swordsmanship for some examples of forging Chinese swords, and go to www.swordforum.com on the Chinese Swordsmanship Forum for further, lengthy references. The Chinese imported the process of making weapons to the Japanese around the Tang dynasty, and the Japanese kept and did not change this process. From the Qing (and possibly Ming--I need to check on that) dynasty, dao typically weighed about two pounds or less, particularly since there were different versions of a dao (goose quill, willow leaf, ox tail, etc.) Jian weighed between one or two pounds in general. Yinyuedao (the REAL, technical name for the "Kwan Dao") were heavy early in its history, but they became much lighter when metal shafts were replaced by wood shafts. An example that the author above owns weighs around five pounds. They could not be heavy weapons to the point that they were too heavy to use.

By the way, I speak in the past tense because the majority of Chinese weapons today are not representative of the antiques. They are mostly cheap imitations.

--------------------------------
Some were thicker than others. Fu Chen Sung’s sword was thick and thinned out at the end. Li Cung Yi’s on the other hand, because it was shorter, was thicker.
--------------------------------

I am not familiar with the specific swords you refer to. Are there sources you can offer me (as well as all other forumites)?

----------------------------------
Now also keep in mind that in the old days, all weapons were custom made, tailored to suite the practitioner.
----------------------------------

Again, this is misconception that has been propagated by those not familiar with historical examples. What time frame are you referring to when you state "in the old days"? Are you SURE that ALL weapons were custom made? Remember that jian and dao were not weapons that everyone could carry. Leaders, military, and nobility were generally the ones who were allowed to carry swords and knives (dao). If a lower-class member was caught with one, the results would be very serious. A sword maker had strict limits on what he could do with regard to weapons. In reference to the OX TAIL dao, that is a weapon that was taken up by civilians at a particular point in Chinese history, and it was NOT a weapon employed by the military. For most of the people carrying swords, the weapons were standard issue, much like a "one size fits all" scheme. Historical examples show that swords in whatever category were nearly all the same length for that particular category.

Doug

03-31-2004, 08:10 PM

----------------------------------
Back to the topic, it seems to me that your stuck on the thick heavy king author style of blades. What about the French Fencing sword? Tuff and flexible. The sword might have bent somewhat, but not much. In particular because of the type of form he was doing. The character of the set was one of slicing more so than chopping, and being that the Ba-Gua Da Dao’s purpose is slicing; it should be thin at the end.
-----------------------------------

What is this "thick heavy king author style of blades"? Explain please. I am not "stuck" on "thick" blades. Please pay attention. I am and HAVE BEEN ADDRESSING real swords versus wushu blades. A REAL sword will have far more substance than a wushu imitation.

"What about the French Fencing sword? Tuff and flexible." Which era are you referring to? At any given point, you will notice that French swords are very different from Chinese swords. This comparison is off the topic and quite a stretch.

------------------------------------
I have a friend who knows the extremely rare Northern Wu Tai Chi style who is also a sword collector. This guy spends crazy money on antique swords and some of them from the 19th century were quite flexible. All he collects are Chinese swords. I don’t a lot about grading them, but I do know the difference between a fake and a real sword.
-------------------------------------

Apparently, you do not know the difference between a fake sword and an authentic one. I cannot recommend www.swordforum.com enough. Just read through it at least.

Where does your friend buy his swords? Can you get him to post pictures of them here? What do you mean by "quite flexible"?

-------------------------------
(Traditional Chinese dao and jian had a little flex but not like a European long sword would or the "spring steel" offered with Chinese weapons.)

The Da Dao is not like the traditional broadsword, if it were, it would be too heavy to use.
Take a look at these pictures:

http://www.chikungintl.com/images/DaoCompare.jpg

http://www.chikungintl.com/images/HaJinBao.jpg

Look at the size of the traditional on the left as opposed to the commercial on the right; now you tell me, should that broadsword be made proportionally the same? If it were, trying to train with it, with out being a master, would cause you to violate the principles of the Internal constantly, which would make the practice moot.
Look at the way Ha Jin Bao is sinking with the weight of the traditional, (and that’s a big dude. 6’5) you can’t see it in the picture, but it’s making him work. There were points in his demo that the blade disappeared. But that was after a build up.
-------------------------------

Those are large dao, yes.

---------------------------------
(3) there is no way to tell if it is combat worthy or not: we cannot go back in time to check, and without further information to support such a claim, how can it be answered?)

Again, are you saying that our Sifu lied to us? I trust his word. That’s all I need. I’ve known him too long to doubt him. But of course, you don’t know us and only have what we’re telling you. But like Novell told you before, " believe it or not, it’s you’re choice". Trying to prove it too you is a waste of time. The sword is in China so it can’t be presented to you for your scrutiny.
------------------------------

I do not think your teacher is lying (and I have no proof if he was), but that does not mean that your teacher is all-knowing about all things. This is not a cheap shot at your teacher but a remark about all people in general. We pass down the traditions we receive from other people, accurate or not. How do you account for the general misconceptions about Chinese martial systems? I never said you sifu lied; that is something you made up. Had the above information been supplied from the start, I could have added a caveat to avoid what you are proposing.

The only waste of time is that you are trying to argue with me about assumptions you are making. You should not have to present it to me for my scrutiny; it should be for yours. There is a difference between showing and telling.

---------------------------------
(As I stated earlier, opinion is one thing; proof is another. I asked another forumite here to post video of him using his dao, and he declined.)

Look guy,
We’ve been putting more up on our sites beyond the basics for sometime now. We don’t do clips at request. Are you paying for this? Why don’t you post one of your self-demonstrating your sword?
---------------------------------

It sounds like you and your friend in question have a lot in common: you both are pretty quick to anger and assumption. Instead of taking all of this as an observer, you are reacting to a unintentional, non-existent attack. Both of you guys need to step back and look at the screen. What am I saying? Am I really this nobody from nowhere who is trying to ruin your day? If you really believe your closing, "Peace," you would not be so quick to anger. Just say you cannot do it for reasons X, Y, and Z. There is not reason to be upset, guy.

If you really, really want, I could post some pictures as I go through the dao forms I know. But it will not accomplish a lot of anything because it is a photograph, not a moving picture.

-----------------------------------
We prefer the open hands, but weapons train certain attributes so we learned them. I learned them just for the purpose of teaching. Along the way I discovered some that I liked, which is the specialty weapons of Ba-Gua, the exception is the spear, my weapon of choice. But I digress.
You do a video. What’s your style anyway?
-----------------------------------

You do digress. To accurately teach how to use a weapon, you need to be knowledgeable in its usage AS WELL AS knowing the difference between a real sword and its properties and a fake sword and its properties. Do you make this distinction when you teach?

I practice a particular system; I don’t have my own style. I currently practice Hung Gar and Choy Li Fut. I have a couple of year’s worth of Chen Style Tai Chi. My philosophical and technical background is largely influenced by the first martial art I practiced for many years, Aikido. I also have some year’s worth of Naginata-do in there if it matters here.

Me put a video on the Internet? I would only do that if I thought what I could contribute to the martial art audience (European, Asian, African, American, South American, Middle Eastern, etc) would be beneficial. As it is, there are good demonstrations for Hung Gar and Choy Li Fut on the Internet, so I say nay. That MUST be the reason why you have a web site set up. You hope that what you have to say and show will be beneficial, not mundane material that is just a reiteration of what someone else said.

---------------------------------
(I am not saying one cannot use it as fast as in the last couple of video clips; I have not seen someone do that yet. And to believe that the dao is real with only an opinion, WITHOUT any other background, is a leap. There is nothing wrong with questioning the validity of a source when that source is in question.)

This is not an opinion! Our Sifu told us so. That’s it.
------------------------------------

I know this is difficult to understand, but it IS an opinion. Your sifu is not a god as mine is not. They are real people who make real mistakes. If you choose to believe someone, admit that it is your opinion that your sifu is correct. But do not blindly believe someone JUST BECAUSE he or she said so. That is committing the fallacy about historical inaccuracy you detail below. Being that I said this, you will probably "hear" that I am poking fun at your teacher. Nothing could be further from the truth. He is going by what he knows. Since I don’t know anything about your teacher beyond this thread, you could be a helpful party and direct me toward a good source aobut him. If anything, I am giving you advice.

--------------------------------------
(It also described a famous Bagua practitioner who was known as the "whirlwind of death" with blood splattering everywhere when he used his Bagua dao during the Boxer Rebellion. If this really happened, no one talks about it or has printed it anywhere. One would think this would have made a historical note in the many texts available on the Boxer Rebellion.)

The person being spoken of is Xing-I/Ba-Gua master Li Cung Yi. Let me ask you this, what do you know about Southeast Asia during WWII? Do you how the term "Leatherneck" came into being? And if you don’t, why don’t you know about it? Some of the most incredible personal battles in history have not been documented because, for some unknown reason, the one doing the unheard of is on the losing side.
Do you know how much truth has been omitted from history? It’s almost to the point that the majority of the planet is living and believing a complete lie. I don’t follow or perpetrate myths, nor do I believe in everything written or not written. The fact that it’s not in a book does not make it not so.
----------------------------------------

I agree with much that you say here. It easily goes with what I have been saying in this thread all along. In fact, you are proof that your own statements are true. So when you say "I don’t follow or perpetrate myths," you are actually in contradiction of your own statement with regard to knowledge of Chinese weaponry.

Doug

03-31-2004, 08:12 PM

----------------------------------------
(Something with mythic proportions as truth is taking a mythic jump into a void. Such things should be sought after and studied, not developed and, then, kept secret or forgotten.)

I agree, but what does that have to do with what we’re talking about? There has been no myth pushing on our part. It’s been said that the skill level of the old masters is not as we’ve been told, I disagree, I seen too much in our time and know that they don’t compare to the guys of yesteryear. So it depends on you.
----------------------------------------

Well, if you re-read your statements about Chinese weaponry and do some research on the subject (as I said, searching www.swordforum.com is a step in the right direction because there are a lot of knowledgeable people there), you will find that you are perpetuating myths. I brought it up because it is such an easy thing to do (pass along legend as truth). My statement has everything to do with this online conversation.

And you say "I seen too much in our time and know that they don’t compare to the guys of yesteryear. So it depends on you." Well, if you can share your experiences and life events, I would appreciate it. Do you go into this in other threads? Could you point them out for me? I would be interested in reading them. In a way, it depends on YOU if YOU know things that others do not. I think there is a worthy audience here. Do you wish to share your experiences?

------------------------------------------
(To question is to make a stronger connections with one's very sense of the world and his relation to it. To question is to be alive within one's traditions.)

I totally agree.
-----------------------------------------

If you believe this, why are you bent out of shape about what you think I said when I never said "it"?

------------------------------------------
(O.K. Thanks. If possible, could you compare the flex of the "real" one you have with that of the commercial version? You wouldn't, by chance, be able to post video of yourself with your prize version, would you?)

These pictures were taken about 3yrs ago and the quality is not that good (the comparison).
The better shot is with Ha Jin Bao.
I’ve never video taped myself with the Da Dao, and while I do plan to do one, with all that’s on my plate at this time with the tournament and all, it won’t be soon, besides it will be for sale. We give too much info as it is. And I’m not giving away what I worked so hard for to Internet warriors that want to seem like their good. Not saying that you are one of these, but I don’t know that either. Hope you can understand this.
-------------------------------------------

It is obvious you question my background, which is fine and expected. I will probably never meet you in person, so what is wrong with this wonderment? However, if you think about it, everyone here is an "Internet warrior." It is only part of the aspect of living in the current age.

"We give too much info as it is. And I’m not giving away what I worked so hard for" is also expected to an extent. Quite frankly, I keep quiet about what I know as much as possible UNLESS I find someone who I think could benefit from what I have to offer. This is rare, you know. But the Internet is a different place. I can understand your point about not wanting to "share your secrets." But this is not a time in history when the fear of one style stealing from another or a phony trying to steal your art is enough to hold back teaching. I never asked for secrets; I asked for details, primary sources, links, or (if possible) a demonstration (if it was available). There is no need for negative arguments when none have been offered.

--------------------------
Peace
---------------------------

May this be true even at junctures of disagreement.

Doug M

Stranger

03-31-2004, 08:28 PM

Being that I am not a CMA practitioner, it is hard to recognize how these clips would play out in combat. Mind you I am not doubting a thing, just confused. Would it be possible to see any footage of a Chinese fencing/sword fighting tournament ( a la David Bond Chan's tournies)? Cutting practice? Applications? I think it might be easier to understand outside of the context of principle based form work that seems to be on the clips posted so far.

Thanks in advance.

The Willow Sword

04-01-2004, 09:52 AM

I have been reading the rather long winded posts by every one and id like to say something.

I know a bit about swords (REAL SWORDS) im not talking about your drop cast steel or the light springy wushu steel or some of the weapons that we use in practice and forms.

REAL swords are relatively light and tempered such that they will be able to chop through most weapons out there.
with the exception of the scottish claymore(which is a tad on the heavy side) swords were made as light and as strong as possible so that when you did go in to combat you could attack and slash and stab as quickly as possible. i have a real jian blade, it wasnt cheap, it is light and razor sharp and tough and could run you through in a second. practice weapons were either made too light (for show) or heavier than normal(to develope muscle control so that when you DID put a real weapon in your hand, you moved it like lightning,,,but back in the old days you practiced with real weapons, its not like today)

These forms, like the bagua dao and the jian and the deer horns authentically represent the movements of bagua, the 8 triagrams and the way in which your focus comes from within and spirals outward. The forms may not necessarily show the exact way that a REAL fight with these weapons are done,,because in REALITY,,weapons combat is not this long winded choreography.
in the first encounter someone gets cut and killed in three moves or less,,and the combat is very close,,not far away and not dodge and play. these forms are for generating spirit,chi, and maintaining fitness and health etc etc. and yes you are doing certain combat aspects.
i have posted this link before but here is what REAL SWORDS are.
www.angelsword.com

peace,,TWS

Paul_E

04-01-2004, 03:55 PM

Doug, while your posts are very eloquent it only seems reasonable that one would ask of you what you have asked of them. That is, posting clips of yourself. Also, I find it interesting that someone who does not currently practice and has no admitted history of practicing a certain style could argue on something that he knows nothing about. It is true that a sword's quality should be able to be debated regardless of how it it is used I think the point is that its quality is linked to the style that it is used in.

You did say that at a certain time in Chinese history, only nobles, military leaders, and elites were allowed to carry swords so wouldn't it make sense that they would be custom made? At any rate one would not expect an experienced martial artitst to train with just any commoner's sword but as I do not know history on that account, what one expects is irrelevant.

I don't really have a problem with your arguments but I'm getting tired of having people accuse Maoshan and Novell of being quick to anger everytime they challenge what someone says. So what if they use direct and strong language? It seems to me that all they are doing is making their feelings as clear as possible on the internet. I doubt they take any of that stuff that seriously anyway, it's just arguing, so stop getting offended evertime someone takes you out of your comfort zone. Not everyone is going to argue like it's 4:00 tea time.

Paul

RAF

04-01-2004, 08:16 PM

http://www.cctv.com/english/tc/sanji07.html

CCTV 9 on Kungfu

Swords are classified as double-blade weapons. They can be further divided into single and double swords, long and short swords.

A sword is made up of a sword tip, sword edge, flat of blade, hand guard, handle, sword head and sword tassel. Usually the length of a sword is about 3 Chi (approximately 1m), but it should be based on the user's stature.

The principle is that the length of the sword is supposed to be equal to the length from the practitioner's hand to his or her eyebrow. Some sword practitioners get special swords made to suit their various needs.'

The use of the sword can be traced back to as early as the Yin Shang period [1700-1100BC].

At the beginning of the Qin Dynasty [248BC], the sword became very popular, but the shape of the sword was quite different then. Qin swords were made of bronze.Bronze swords are shorter and heavier than modern swords.

Bronze swords became the prevailing weapon at that time mainly because they were better for thrusting and cutting.

The very first records of fencing date back to the Spring and Autumn Period, and to a lady named Yuenu.

She learned the 'Yuenu Sword 'form by herself.This was a very prestigious sword form, and she was even called upon to train the king's army.

Aside from Yuenu, there are many ther famous fencers or swordsmen throughout the history of China.

During the Warring States Period, the long sword prevailed in the state of Chu because it was very effective in battles. Qin, the most powerful state in the Warring States, was strongly challenged by the Chu's long sword.

In the Spring and Autumn Period, however, spears, halberds, and daggers were widely used on battle fields.

Although swords were still used as short weapons, they were no longer popular in actual combats. The main purpose of swords changed at that time from fighting to decorating.

Swords have always been considered sacred and holy, mainly because Chinese people tend to associate swords with religion, sacrificing and power.

Therefore, Chinese people believe that swords are the symbol of sanctity, and are closely related to one's social status.
(continued)

Click on [knowing more] to finish the article.

Doug

04-01-2004, 08:41 PM

Originally posted by Paul_E
Doug, while your posts are very eloquent it only seems reasonable that one would ask of you what you have asked of them. That is, posting clips of yourself.

Please refer to my previous three-part post about posting video clips. I make it quite clear why I would not do this. If you want to see me that badly, Paul, come see me. If you are not willing to come see me, what are you trying to prove?

Originally posted by Paul_E
Also, I find it interesting that someone who does not currently practice and has no admitted history of practicing a certain style could argue on something that he knows nothing about. It is true that a sword's quality should be able to be debated regardless of how it it is used I think the point is that its quality is linked to the style that it is used in.

You do not pay attention, Paul. If you can identify what I am talking about, please feel free to post again ABOUT THE TOPIC. I find it interesting that you are also taking unnecessary offense to my posts. If you spent more time adjusting your knowledge base on historical accounts rather than folklore, you would not have to waste your time by starting frivolous arguements.

Originally posted by Paul_E
You did say that at a certain time in Chinese history, only nobles, military leaders, and elites were allowed to carry swords so wouldn't it make sense that they would be custom made? At any rate one would not expect an experienced martial artitst to train with just any commoner's sword but as I do not know history on that account, what one expects is irrelevant.

In terms of what eBay may want to dictate what a Chinese sword is, swords were standardized. And I do not know where you get the idea that "one would not expect an experienced martial artitst to train with just any commoner's sword." Martial artists were not the elite in society, Paul. They were mostly members of the lower class. They would use ANY weapon they could. Where do you get your information? You would do yourself a favor by checking out the sources I already listed in previous posts.

Originally posted by Paul_E
I don't really have a problem with your arguments but I'm getting tired of having people accuse Maoshan and Novell of being quick to anger everytime they challenge what someone says. So what if they use direct and strong language? It seems to me that all they are doing is making their feelings as clear as possible on the internet. I doubt they take any of that stuff that seriously anyway, it's just arguing, so stop getting offended evertime someone takes you out of your comfort zone. Not everyone is going to argue like it's 4:00 tea time.Paul

Actually, your statements show that you do have a problem with my arguments. You are also taking the previous gentlemen's arguments as your own. If these gentlemen are unable to address people without starting their own fires, then whose problem is it? Do you know that there are ways of addressing people without coming across as ridiculous as that (or as you are)? I find that one's own advice works best if one represents it, so when you say "stop getting offended evertime someone takes you out of your comfort zone," you need to keep yourself in check.

By the way, please tell me how people argue "like it's 4:00 tea time" because I have no idea how that happens.

Doug M

Paul_E

04-02-2004, 12:15 AM

Alright Doug, where should I start? Since I have nothing better to do and you asked so kindly I will try to stay on topic or at least give my own account of what happened. It was an exhaustive search trying to find wholes in your passive aggressive typing style but I'll try.

I think I'll take it page by page.

On page 1 , resource, pics, and text about
ba gua sword were requested. Links were posted and blacktaoist posted a video clip. Now you said nothing about the skill of the practitioner but the quality of the sword. You stated your opinion, claiming that this does more harm than education. To support this claim you stated that ba gua daos are heavier (though from the forum link you posted, you have neither seen nor used one in real life) and would not move that way. You then claimed that because (as you assume from second hand information) it was not a real dao it would not be characteristic of real bagua dao usage, which you have no knowledge of. By the way, you stated this claim to a (by all accounts) real ba gua practitioner.

Then when, blacktaoist (in your opinion) took offense to your words, you took offense to his (perceived) taking offense. You then described how you make demonstrations look more real, which is funny because most demonstrations are devoid of any "real" intention, they're just that demonstrations, for educational purposes only. Therefore, short of taking a real, sharp edged antique and going on a killing spree, I fail to see how your example is any realer than his.

On to page 2.

blacktaoist attempted to make some clarifications. He stated that he was not upset. You once again, took offense to his (apparent) indignation and then ,of all things, told him what he was feeling, accusing him of being confrontational. You then tried to restate your point, but instead of stopping there, you (again) accused blacktaoist of overreacting. You then said that he suffered from (what you believe) is negative aggression. You then referred to the weapon while ignoring the most important point, which is the practitioner who makes the weapon. In particular, ba gua uses the weapon a certain way. As you know, in chinese martial arts we are taught that the weapon is supposed to become an extension of the practioner so what is most important (in my opinion) is not what weapon is used but what body method is used. As you so kindly pointed out, martial arts experts were commomers, taking any weapon they could find, so what do you think is more important, the skill of the guy or what he is using? You then go on to claim using a wushu weapon is an inaccurate way of demostrating the art. Which is an opinion and was not supported by fact. Is a form an accurate way of demonstrating a martial when it does not involve using a technique on someone? Well, maybe if it has a real weapon in it right...? What I really had a problem with, is the fact that you tried to act like your opinion was correct and should serve as a basis for ending the discussion.

You then solidify my suspicion that you are missing the point of the new direction of the thread which was how a weapon effectively demostrates an art. The style in question is ba gua. When novel asked you if you knew any ba gua dao, which was being demostrated in the clip, you tried to dissociate the weapon from the user. You took it "out of context", which you seem to be so fond of. As if someone trying to do ba gua dao using hung gar movements is still doing ba gua dao because it's a "real" one.

Then in your passive aggressive style, you accepted blacktaoist's explanation of his feelings while hinting that you knew otherwise.

I have no problems with your initial discussion with Maoshan (hooray).

Actually, blacktaoist pretty much sums things up nicely in his next post to you. And you rise to the occasion with another passive-aggressive response. Well done.

Page 3
blacktaoist posts a clip on the previous page. After some discussion you ask for some context. When it is given you then bring up your old friend "opinion". Since it is a video you rightly suggest that since he was not there we can never be sure if it's real or not. Now I am all for scepticism but your inconsistency starts to appear here. You go on to say that you talked to another bagua man and that he uses a 4.5 pound dao and finds it difficult to accept the video, as you do. I went to that link you so kindly posted by the way. This man was kind enough to post pictures of his dao and he even gave dimensions. I will not bring him into this. Instead, I will point out that you saw these pictures in a post that was made on an internet forum as were the dimensions. Because it was made "in context" you had no problem believing the post of someone you have never met (at least you have not state otherwise). So where is the scepticism? Do you put it aside when you need something to back up your claim? So sad....You then try to justify your remarks by saying that you are only commenting on the tool, not the user, as if in this case, the user does not matter in a martial arts demonstration, when in fact he does. Just ask your self this question. When you are judging a martial artist's performance are you watching the way his body moves or are you watching his weapon only?

Maoshan, then makes a response to your inquiries. You try to stay on point by saying that what you are addressing is the realness of the sword not the practioner. That is fine and I understand your appeal for a common ground. However, when Maoshan brings up the point about your Ba gua reference and the weight of his dao you say that you were not talking about the speed of usage. But your exact words were "I talked to another Bagua practitioner about this clip, and he also finds the realness of the sword questionable. He uses a 4.5 pound Bagua Dao for his practice and finds similar difficulty with the clip as I did." While this seems like a clear statement at first one again has to ask why the weight of the sword is brought up. One would not be off in assuming that this bagua man had a problem with the demonstrator's manipulation of the sword. You rightly clarified your intention and for that I salute you.

BUT, once again that inconsistency reveals itself. You basically claim that because of the poor picture quality and our inability to travel through time we cannot accept the realness of the dao. And yet you would believe the post of another forum member who could have gotten his pictures from anywhere and made up the dimensions. Once again, not knocking him, just your usage of him. You ask for video proof of a real dao in usage when in face the only real way to find out is to meet in person. But just because the bagua man provided some "background" it is more acceptable than what blacktaoist gave you, despite his attempts to clarify things.

You then claim that because there is no documentation that Li Cun Yi did what he did during the boxer rebellion it should not be accepted as fact. I am fine with that, but just because history books do not speak of something to assume that they did not occur is not so fine. By all accounts, Cheng ting hua (another ba gua man), was killed during the boxer rebellion by german soldiers. It wasn't written down (as far as I know), but people generally accept that it happened.

You then go on to say that using a fake weapon to demonstrate ba gua is unnappealing to you (irrelevant) and does not represent real weapon usage). Once again, until I see you on TV going on a killing spree, in my opinion your demostration of weapon usage with a "real" weapon is not what you say it is, it's "decontextualized" if you will.
l

Paul_E

04-02-2004, 12:17 AM

On the whole, your next responses to Maoshan are acceptable, but then you come out with this "Just explain your perspective to the best of your typing ability for an online forum." I could of course be taking this the wrong way, haha, but it seems to me like you veil your insults in clever statements like these. Correct me if I'm wrong.

In response to Maoshan's remark you ask if he believes that wushu weapons can be used as real weapons...where's my killing spree ******?

You then make your knowledgeable claims about swords which I regretfully cannot comment on. Hopefully they are accurate.

At last, page 4.

For the most part, it's great. And I'm glad. Accept for a little comment "We pass down the traditions we receive from other people, accurate or not.." Now remind me what you did with the information you received from the ba gua man, acccurate or not. I guess in this case he would be the weapon and you the user? Whatever.

Then there's this "You should not have to present it to me for my scrutiny; it should be for yours. There is a difference between showing and telling." This is a funny claim considering the face that you asked him to present his weapons for your scrutiny. So I guess he can show, but only you can tell, right?

And this "It sounds like you and your friend in question have a lot in common: you both are pretty quick to anger and assumption. Instead of taking all of this as an observer, you are reacting to a unintentional, non-existent attack." You are an amazing empath. I did not know that one could deduce someone's emotions from something as impersonal as an internet forum. Not to mention, once again, the fact that you took bagua man at his word and assumed that what he said is true. I guess you only need one corroborating story to get what you need right?

"If you really, really want, I could post some pictures as I go through the dao forms I know. But it will not accomplish a lot of anything because it is a photograph, not a moving picture." One could take this two ways. They're actually kind of related. The first way is that you want us to see what someone moving with a real dao looks like. The second is that you want us to see what someone who knows HOW to move with a dao moves like. In my opinion only the first is relevant to the new direction of the thread which is, how a martial artist moves in a weapon form, which is arguably not dictated by the quality of the weapon. Notice I said arguably, which means that I believe this is up for debate, which is what we are doing and you seem to be fighting tooth and nail against, judging by the anger you perceive we faceless paragraphs are emitting somehow. I'll get to that though.

"You do digress. To accurately teach how to use a weapon, you need to be knowledgeable in its usage AS WELL AS knowing the difference between a real sword and its properties and a fake sword and its properties. Do you make this distinction when you teach?" To this I can only add "KILLING SPREE!!!!!!!!!"

"You hope that what you have to say and show will be beneficial, not mundane material that is just a reiteration of what someone else said."
You probably hoped what you got from the bagua man was beneficial, and maybe it was, but it also seemed to be a "reiteration of what someone else said." OK, I was reaching with that one....getting tired.

"I know this is difficult to understand, but it IS an opinion. Your sifu is not a god as mine is not. They are real people who make real mistakes. If you choose to believe someone, admit that it is your opinion that your sifu is correct. But do not blindly believe someone JUST BECAUSE he or she said so. That is committing the fallacy about historical inaccuracy you detail below. Being that I said this, you will probably "hear" that I am poking fun at your teacher. Nothing could be further from the truth. He is going by what he knows. Since I don’t know anything about your teacher beyond this thread, you could be a helpful party and direct me toward a good source aobut him. If anything, I am giving you advice. " Who's blindly (bagua man) believing (bagua man) who? Oh, but he gave you some background. My bad.

"I agree with much that you say here. It easily goes with what I have been saying in this thread all along. In fact, you are proof that your own statements are true. So when you say "I don’t follow or perpetrate myths," you are actually in contradiction of your own statement with regard to knowledge of Chinese weaponry."

I'm too tired for this one.

(To question is to make a stronger connections with one's very sense of the world and his relation to it. To question is to be alive within one's traditions.)

I totally agree.
-----------------------------------------

If you believe this, why are you bent out of shape about what you think I said when I never said "it"?

This part is interesting because you accept what bagua man said over the net and then used it to give yourself an advantagious relation to the rest of the world. Sorry to keep bringing him up but you weilded that info so well at a crucial moment.

It is obvious you question my background, which is fine and expected. I will probably never meet you in person, so what is wrong with this wonderment? However, if you think about it, everyone here is an "Internet warrior." It is only part of the aspect of living in the current age.

Agreed. But if everyone is an internet warrior then why do you perceive a challenge as anger? It's just a debate, right?

Paul_E

04-02-2004, 12:18 AM

Now we come to your response to me.

"Please refer to my previous three-part post about posting video clips. I make it quite clear why I would not do this. If you want to see me that badly, Paul, come see me. If you are not willing to come see me, what are you trying to prove? "

I have done so. You admittedly have nothing to offer on the subject other than hearsay, which you use to question (apparently) real practitioners. Also, I made one statement asking you to reciprocate what these people have done and suddenly I want to see you badly? No, I think you're the one overreacting. Judging by your internet persona I don't think I want to meet you. Maybe you're just having a bad week. What am I trying to prove? Well I think I just proved what your words were hinting at-mainly that you don't like it when people challenge your statements. You think they're angry just because they don't like what you've said over the internet. And you have as a result revealed your passive-aggressive super powers.

"You do not pay attention, Paul. If you can identify what I am talking about, please feel free to post again ABOUT THE TOPIC. I find it interesting that you are also taking unnecessary offense to my posts. If you spent more time adjusting your knowledge base on historical accounts rather than folklore, you would not have to waste your time by starting frivolous arguements."

Well, I may have gotten off topic, but I definitely addressed what you said. I take offense to people who take offense to what they perceive as other people's taking offense. And I found the majority of your comments annoying. Maybe they were fake, flexible comments though, so I probably shouldn't take them as the real you.

"In terms of what eBay may want to dictate what a Chinese sword is, swords were standardized. And I do not know where you get the idea that "one would not expect an experienced martial artitst to train with just any commoner's sword." Martial artists were not the elite in society, Paul. They were mostly members of the lower class. They would use ANY weapon they could. Where do you get your information? You would do yourself a favor by checking out the sources I already listed in previous posts."

I guess I can't win them all. Oh well. But I do have one comment. As I already remarked, you really like to take the available info you have and accept it as the truth so that you can use it in your passive-aggressive arsenal. I'm not saying that we should discount all historical books, writings, etc. but I am sure that like the rest of us you were not there either, as you love to point out. As they say, your feces stinks too.

"Actually, your statements show that you do have a problem with my arguments. You are also taking the previous gentlemen's arguments as your own. If these gentlemen are unable to address people without starting their own fires, then whose problem is it? Do you know that there are ways of addressing people without coming across as ridiculous as that (or as you are)? I find that one's own advice works best if one represents it, so when you say "stop getting offended evertime someone takes you out of your comfort zone," you need to keep yourself in check. "

Hell yes, I have a problem with your "arguments". I'm glad you're admitting that they are just that-arguments. Not facts. You're taking a step in the right direction. You're not the only person who has called Maoshan and blacktaoist over the internet. I'm not defending them. They can do that themselves. It's you who refuses to accept what they are telling you about themselves, which regardless of their knowldef of weapons, would seem to be a subject they know much more about than you. This is more of an esthetic plea. Stop calling them angry when they object to what you say. It's really annoying. Tell them they were wrong and move on. You will be the first successful internet profiler/psychiatrist I suppose. As you like to say, get a clue. The world will not accept all of your "historical" arguments from outside sources as immediately true.

Lastly, this "By the way, please tell me how people argue "like it's 4:00 tea time" because I have no idea how that happens."

As I have said in this long, long, long, post, you seem to have a problem with people who don't respond the way you think they should. The reference to 4:00 tea was meant to show how your very unexpressive responses reminds me of a very uptight 4:00 tea in England, with everyone very polite, not stepping on anyone's toes. I bet you that these people are discussing current events and have very strong opinions on them but keep them bottled up. You APPEAR to want everyone to be like this, very neat, tidy. Hey this is a discussion forum and people discuss things in different styles. Plus, it's an internet forum, you can say whatever you want and never reveal your true feelings. There's really not much more one can say on this other than lighten up.

Actually, this refers back to your comment about me taking my own advice and keeping myself in check. First, this is very inside my comfort zone. I find debating to be one of the most exhilirating parts of life. One can learn alot about oneself. Second, why the hell should I keep myself in check on an internet forum? Are you going to verbally woop my ass? Just because I said something you didn't agree with in a debate? In fact, I want you to verbally abuse me so I can come back harder (As I hopefully did in this post). Bring it on baby.

Most of this is my opinion, by the way.

Pau

Rurouni Kenshi

04-02-2004, 02:38 AM

hmmmm

wouldnt it be better to post some video instead of argument?
well, i would prefer....

Doug

04-02-2004, 03:19 AM

Paul,

If you want to consider yourself a good debator, that is fine. However, you get so much mixed up that the main thing going for you is pathos (possibly bathos). I posted long threads because the other gentlemen were mostly addressing the topic. While you have silly comments throughout, the passive-aggressive thing is funny because what you call passive-aggressive is really an attempt to keep things clearer, not generalized. As you ended your last bit, though, you make it clear you want to fight, whereas I am explaining myself as well as addressing what I am being accused of.

You then claimed that because (as you assume from second hand information) it was not a real dao it would not be characteristic of real bagua dao usage, which you have no knowledge of.

If by second hand you mean the video, then everyone makes assumptions from what they see. As you should know, everyone sees something different. Do not try to make it seem like I am the only one making determinations here.

Then when, blacktaoist (in your opinion) took offense to your words, you took offense to his (perceived) taking offense.

Look at the language. If other people have a problem with the gentleman's language, the problem is obvious. A person will change for the culture, not the reverse.

You then described how you make demonstrations look more real, which is funny because most demonstrations are devoid of any "real" intention, they're just that demonstrations, for educational purposes only. Therefore, short of taking a real, sharp edged antique and going on a killing spree, I fail to see how your example is any realer than his.

If you take a demonstartion that way, then it is somewhat empty. That is your choice. But there is a point I am making outside of that personal choice, which you should grasp by now.

You then referred to the weapon while ignoring the most important point, which is the practitioner who makes the weapon.

I do not neglect this. The user makes the usage; but the user also makes the TOY, which is my point. If you think toys are o.k. for demonstrations, more playtime to you.

You then go on to claim using a wushu weapon is an inaccurate way of demostrating the art. Which is an opinion and was not supported by fact. Is a form an accurate way of demonstrating a martial when it does not involve using a technique on someone? Well, maybe if it has a real weapon in it right...? What I really had a problem with, is the fact that you tried to act like your opinion was correct and should serve as a basis for ending the discussion.

When you start taking this the wrong way, you end with that assumption. However, wushu blades are inaccurate; did Qing-era martial artists use wushu stuff to perform or work out with? How about the Ming martial men? It is a modern conception, not a traditional one. THAT IS FACT.

When novel asked you if you knew any ba gua dao, which was being demostrated in the clip, you tried to dissociate the weapon from the user.

Nope.

Now I am all for scepticism but your inconsistency starts to appear here. You go on to say that you talked to another bagua man and that he uses a 4.5 pound dao and finds it difficult to accept the video, as you do. I went to that link you so kindly posted by the way. This man was kind enough to post pictures of his dao and he even gave dimensions. I will not bring him into this. Instead, I will point out that you saw these pictures in a post that was made on an internet forum as were the dimensions. Because it was made "in context" you had no problem believing the post of someone you have never met (at least you have not state otherwise). So where is the scepticism? Do you put it aside when you need something to back up your claim? So sad....

This is a faulty analogy. One person presents much more evidence to support his evidence while another source has evidence that is not nearly as clear. I am surprised that so you three guys are taking so much offense here. Your last sentence does not make sense the way it is stated, but if you are assuming that one should accept something like this as a matter of faith...well, I got three magic beans that will grow into a beanstalk if you give me all of your money. Again, assumptions are being made on your part.

You then try to justify your remarks by saying that you are only commenting on the tool, not the user, as if in this case, the user does not matter in a martial arts demonstration, when in fact he does.

I never said that. You are promoting imagined statements.

You basically claim that because of the poor picture quality and our inability to travel through time we cannot accept the realness of the dao. And yet you would believe the post of another forum member who could have gotten his pictures from anywhere and made up the dimensions. Once again, not knocking him, just your usage of him. You ask for video proof of a real dao in usage when in face the only real way to find out is to meet in person. But just because the bagua man provided some "background" it is more acceptable than what blacktaoist gave you, despite his attempts to clarify things.

Are you sure you were thinking straight when you typed this? Clear evidence versus unclear evidence--hmmmm. Are you sure you are up for debate? Because, based on this, everytihng you say in reference to this other person is in question.

You then claim that because there is no documentation that Li Cun Yi did what he did [...] By all accounts, Cheng ting hua (another ba gua man), was killed during the boxer rebellion by german soldiers. It wasn't written down (as far as I know), but people generally accept that it happened.

I agreed about the history thing. By the way, in reference to Ching Ting Hua--Ba Gua: Hidden Knowledge in the Taoist Internal martial Art by John Bracy and Liu Xing-han. There are otehr references, but that is the one fresh to me at the moment.

You then go on to say that using a fake weapon to demonstrate ba gua is unnappealing to you (irrelevant) and does not represent real weapon usage). Once again, until I see you on TV going on a killing spree, in my opinion your demostration of weapon usage with a "real" weapon is not what you say it is, it's "decontextualized" if you will.

It is not irrelevant; it is the point I have made again and again. Focus on that, not the other stuff. Debate that point with me, not take cheap, amateur shots at me. BUT if you only play with toys, you will only be good at using toys. So while many Chinese martial artists are good with their hands, they are not good with their weapons IF they rely on the wushu stuff. The heavier material is, well, o.k., but it does not capture the "feel" of the real stuff. And it is the "real" stuff that was in use. What I advocate is closer accuracy to weapon use (because not everyone will have an old, traditional sword or weapon). I did not explicitly state this before, but it is implied.

On the whole, your next responses to Maoshan are acceptable, but then you come out with this "Just explain your perspective to the best of your typing ability for an online forum." I could of course be taking this the wrong way, haha, but it seems to me like you veil your insults in clever statements like these. Correct me if I'm wrong.

This is why clarity is important in online forums (I have stated that several times already). While you are committing the very errors you are accusing me of, you also make a hasty generalization. I say one should be as clear as possible to avoid nonsense like that here. It is as simple as that.

You then make your knowledgeable claims about swords which I regretfully cannot comment on. Hopefully they are accurate.

Yeah, me too. By the way, do not investigate the sources I provided. I still have three magic beans to sell you, and I am TELLING you that they are real. Go for it!

Now remind me what you did with the information you received from the ba gua man, acccurate or not. I guess in this case he would be the weapon and you the user? Whatever.

You got it right. Whatever.

This is a funny claim considering the face that you asked him to present his weapons for your scrutiny. So I guess he can show, but only you can tell, right?

I never said this. Did you major in hasty generalization in school?

You are an amazing empath. I did not know that one could deduce someone's emotions from something as impersonal as an internet forum. [...] I guess you only need one corroborating story to get what you need right?

What is an "empath"?

Given the uncertainty involved with online language, one should be as clear as possible. If one gives the impression of being offended, one will show it in one's language. Therefore, if the gentlemen in question were not offended or angry, it would show in their language. As stated, if others also have a problem with X and Y, how do you propose to address the situation? From this point on, I will take their comments lightly and casually if that will make you happy. So where does the serious side to language (the part or parts that will coincide with purposeful, academic--yes, that exists here too--progress) take shape? If the way one forms his words in a medium are shaped to be aggressive, resentful, hasty, or generalized, how should everyone else understand him? At some point, language should be taken seriously.

Doug

04-02-2004, 03:19 AM

One could take this two ways. They're actually kind of related. The first way is that you want us to see what someone moving with a real dao looks like. The second is that you want us to see what someone who knows HOW to move with a dao moves like.

Well, you have two conclusions, but there are more. For one, it could mean that a picture does not move, so all that you will see is me in a posture with a sword. The question asked was for me to put video of myself online. Currently, I have no video, and I already stated why I am against this.

Notice I said arguably, which means that I believe this is up for debate, which is what we are doing and you seem to be fighting tooth and nail against, judging by the anger you perceive we faceless paragraphs are emitting somehow.

You are a paragraph? No!

Since I know you have a mind (as wella s the other forumites here), I should hope you would want to phrase your words more carefully. Is that too much to ask? That way, these things would likely be reduced by half.

Who's blindly (bagua man) believing (bagua man) who? Oh, but he gave you some background. My bad.

Yes, your bad.

Agreed. But if everyone is an internet warrior then why do you perceive a challenge as anger? It's just a debate, right?

Refer to the language from the gentlemen in question. As stated, I will not take their comments seriously anymore.

You admittedly have nothing to offer on the subject other than hearsay, which you use to question (apparently) real practitioners.

Spoken like a truly non-aggressive, informed statement.

What am I trying to prove? Well I think I just proved what your words were hinting at-mainly that you don't like it when people challenge your statements. You think they're angry just because they don't like what you've said over the internet. And you have as a result revealed your passive-aggressive super powers.

Thanks for the super powers. I never thought I had them, but since you told me I do, I believe you!

When you are more mature, you may look back at this and see that challenge is fine but accusations are not. Disagreement that is coupled with serious assumptions and faulty logic are bad wherever one is. If evidence or clarity is too much to ask for, how else can things be taken seriously here? Or should I just take it for granted that providing more detailed answers is just too much to ask for?

I take offense to people who take offense to what they perceive as other people's taking offense. And I found the majority of your comments annoying. Maybe they were fake, flexible comments though, so I probably shouldn't take them as the real you.

These are non-aggressive comments, right, Paul?

As to the first part, welcome to the real world of miscommunication or otherewise known as online discussion (thus, my point about clarity).

As I already remarked, you really like to take the available info you have and accept it as the truth so that you can use it in your passive-aggressive arsenal.

Did you get your hasty generalization diploma (and minor in passive-aggressive mastery) from a recognized institution?

Taking information--reputable information--and using it to support fact is the work of academics, scholars, and, well, EVERYONE. If you look at your statement, the gentlemen in question are guilty of that as well as you. Your twisting of structure does not work here.

I'm not saying that we should discount all historical books, writings, etc. but I am sure that like the rest of us you were not there either, as you love to point out. As they say, your feces stinks too.

Well, I have held and used the real weapons, so my "feces" goes down the toilet while my study stays in the rightful place of investigation and research. So I am bringing the past into the present. I am not an expert (I never claimed that), but I certainly have a different perspective on the matter at hand. What are you doing to further accuracy in Chinese martial arts?

By the way, why are you smelling my feces, Paul?

You're taking a step in the right direction. You're not the only person who has called Maoshan and blacktaoist over the internet. I'm not defending them. They can do that themselves.

Funny thing, your statement--your objective here IS to defend them.

It's you who refuses to accept what they are telling you about themselves, which regardless of their knowldef of weapons, would seem to be a subject they know much more about than you. This is more of an esthetic plea. Stop calling them angry when they object to what you say. It's really annoying. Tell them they were wrong and move on.

Yeah, you got it. I am the bad guy here, not the one who jumped the Bagua Dao by thinking I was attacking his posting a video clip. But you are not defending them. That much is clear, my good, objective observer.

The world will not accept all of your "historical" arguments from outside sources as immediately true.

Um, the last time I checked, there were more people here, reading information for their own knowledge base, than just you three guys. If you do not want to accept them, argue those points with me, not this expanded, "non-aggressive" argument.

You APPEAR to want everyone to be like this, very neat, tidy. Hey this is a discussion forum and people discuss things in different styles. Plus, it's an internet forum, you can say whatever you want and never reveal your true feelings. There's really not much more one can say on this other than lighten up.

Style is one thing, and negative assumptions, accusations, and implications are another. We are not, for instance, "playing the dozens" here; that would be style. The reactionary language is representative of bad attitudes. Anyway, clarity of language (specifc details and "filled-in blanks" in ideas) is not a bad thing to ask for.

In fact, I want you to verbally abuse me so I can come back harder (As I hopefully did in this post). Bring it on baby.

HA! I will address the topic with you, not the side conversations anymore.

Most of this is my opinion, by the way.

Correction: All of this is your opinion.

Doug M

Doug

04-02-2004, 03:25 AM

Originally posted by Rurouni Kenshi
hmmmm

wouldnt it be better to post some video instead of argument?
well, i would prefer....

Mr. Kenshi,

Sorry about this. You are right. I would send this stuff over private message, but I find that things such as this argument are dealt with out in the open on this forum (now don't any of you get mad about that!). I prefer the private message though.

Doug M

Paul_E

04-02-2004, 01:16 PM

Himura-san, sorry man, I don't have any clips or pictures but I will post something on topic which I should have done in the first place. If it has already not been suggested then you could check out the emptyflower forum. There are many ba gua practitioners and one (I think either Matthew or G) has an icon with Xie Pei Qi holding a big ass ba gua dao in a seated posture. You can ask him where he got the picture and if he has any further info. Also, jarek syzmanski has a website called china from inside.com which does not have info on the bagua dao as far as I know, but he does alot of research on cima and would be a valuable resource. He also has a message board. You could ask people on both these sites for web references. Lastly, you could check yahoo groups. I know of at least 4 bagua oriented groups that you could join - blactaoist's, maoshan's, chengshi, and bagua. Some of the people in these groups seem to have access to video equipment and may be willing to post some clips. Hope this helps.

Paul

Paul_E

04-02-2004, 02:02 PM

Doug, you brought it, cool. I'm having some fun. But other people probably are not. So I'll just hit my favorite points.

If by second hand you mean the video, then everyone makes assumptions from what they see. As you should know, everyone sees something different. Do not try to make it seem like I am the only one making determinations here.

You are the only one who seems to take his determinations as law.

This is a funny claim considering the face that you asked him to present his weapons for your scrutiny. So I guess he can show, but only you can tell, right?

I never said this. Did you major in hasty generalization in school?

You said "The only waste of time is that you are trying to argue with me about assumptions you are making. You should not have to present it to me for my scrutiny There is a difference beween showing and telling."

It's fine if you have a problem with their explanation, but you did specifically ask for them to post pictures. If not for your scrutiny, then for what reason?

You argue that the realness of a weapon determines how the person will perform in a real situation. I offer this counterexample-my teacher has told me that many of the moves in wudang sword are standard sword movements but what distinguishes wudang from the rest is its body method. How does that fit into the problem with the realness of a weapon? If a person performs wudang with a flexible sword, is he no longer doing wudang sword even if he is using the correct body method. I asked a similar question in my last post and you did not address it.
Last couple of points. You say I am defending those two despite my claims to the contrary. If by defending you mean pointing out your overreaction and misperception, then fine. I am defending them. Also, the fact that other people have a problem with their writing style does not immediately make them wrong. You said that the people change for the culture, but guess what, people make culture.

Most importantly, you asked "what is an empath?"

empathy - the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another of either the past or present without having the feelings, thoughts, and experience fully communicated in an objectively explicit manner; also, the capacity for this.

This is what I mean when I say you are an empath. This was my whole problem with you to begin with. You seem to believe that you know what these two are thinking based on what they have posted over the internet. Well done.

Back to the topic. I really do need to learn more about real weapon usage so if you would, please post a link that will take me directly to historical material on the bagua dao's usage on swordforum (not the actual discussion forum please unless it is very detailed). I am having some difficulty finding it from the homepage. If it does not get that specific then I would settle for general info on chinese weaponry's history.

Oh yeah, I have only been practicing bagua for six months, so I do not know the dao form, nor have I acquired one, although I have seen one on the wall of our school. That's my reason for not posting pictures or clips.

maoshan

04-02-2004, 04:42 PM

Doug

To begin with, let’s get something understood,
The author of this thread asked for clips of Ba-Gua weapons forms of which my brother provided.
Next, I know nothing about the making of swords. Can I tell the difference between a real one and a fake? Yes. Can I use one? With out a doubt. And that’s all the knowledge that I need. Knowing the history of, and knowing how to make swords is nothing I need. It serves no purpose for me.

(O.K., so a bit of background information actually comes out! See, this is WHY more context must be provided in order to avoid assumptions like the one above. I will address this issue further down, but I never said he lied. How would I know he lied or did not lie? I had no idea who he was or what the connection was that he had/has to members here. Clarity please.)

Oh, it is clear. My brother told you how we came into possession of the clip. I then came back and co-signed it, but you still continued with you’re train of thought.

Why didn’t you question anybody else? Why did you focus on us about the authenticity of the blade? All I know is that I can take a head if the need were to arise.
How good are you with you’re sword? Fine, you know the history and how to tell the quality of a sword, but can you use one? If you were attacked by 6 or 7 people right now, would that knowledge save you’re ass?

And to all of this long post writing, I don’t have the time. Normally I deal with people like you point for point but to hell with that.
Trying to take me out my realm of knowledge is not going to happen. You’re subtle attacks can be seen money, and I ask you are you a racist?
We sat back and thought about this, reread what you wrote and took all kinds of things into consideration; in the end you’re either a racist or a control freak.

As to being offended. Let me say this, we are fighters and a fighter, for the most part, is ruff. I’m not going to break because you cuss at me or say something that seems a little aggressive. This weak BS has got to stop. We are not sages, even if we aspire to be so. And if that is the goal, you don’t need to be here anyway. What gym have you walked in and heard any form of politeness? This is Martial Arts! Get it? War! We do this for real and seek those that want to share their experience and teach those that don’t know.
And every once in awhile, expose the straight frauds that hid behind their PC’s and come off like the “Master” they’ve always fantasized themselves as being.

You accuse us of following blindly a myth. You don’t know us and you’re a new jack. We question everything how else are you going to know or come close to the truth?

The bottom line is this; this is a martial arts forum, not a sword maker’s forum. I went to you’re board and out of respect, I didn’t write anything because I know nothing about it.
You on the other hand know nothing of Ba-Gua, which is all that we’re talking about, and you’re trying to goad me into some lengthy useless dialogue about a topic I know nothing about.
Paul has spanked you enough, but you won’t let it go.

So I’ll end my part in this by saying this You’re knowledge is useless today, unless tomorrow we put down bullets, bombs and hand grenades and pick up swords and staffs and such.

I’m out.

Paul
Thanks for the support but don’t waste you’re time, because my brother is not wasting his time and I’ve just ended wasting my time

Peace

Maoshan

Doug

04-03-2004, 02:34 AM

Here are some links to specific threads at www.swordforum.com . I have gone through the whole list of threads, but this is only a sample of what may be helpful. Sorry, but no really great thread has been posted on the Bagua dao that is close to the types about jian and shorter dao. The most relevent one is listed last. I hope this list is not too exhaustive; there is just a lot of information available.

Doug M

Tang Dynasty swords:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1216

the so-called "snake jian":
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1768

Goose Quill dao by modern smith:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3417

Early inquiry into two-handed Chinese swords:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3726

"Ugly dao" with rings:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3001

Aspects of a jian:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4663

Reflections on visit to Chinese "sword factory"--eBay-like reproductions:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8257

Jian flexibility:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7188

Special polearm:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7697

Yinyuedao-like (Kwan Dao-like) polearm:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7949

Information on teh Da Dao
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6616

Historical usage of "hook swords":
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10200

Information on traditional sharpening:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10444

On fake & production swords:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10423

Pommel usage:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11678

On tassel/scarf usage:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13059

Thomas Chen's web site (MUST SEE):
http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/index.html

Origins of steel (and argument gone bad):
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16393

Images of Chinese swords in Paris museum:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19325

Using anything as a weapon:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18929

Type of wood used on Chinese spears:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17916

Two-handed Chinese swordsmanship:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18137

On average weight of swords:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19109

Vince Evan Yanmaodao:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20257

Jian in New York City's Metropolitan Museum of Art:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19511

Identifying age of swords:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4456

Korean swords (MUST SEE):
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14549

Pictures of Qianlong-era swords in the Forbidden City:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8711

On problematic book of Chinese weapons:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26260

parallels between Chinese and 16th century European martial systems:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27832

Comparison of Ox Tail dao (Nuiweidao):
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27276

More of the Goose Quill dao (Yanmaodao) from Vince Evans:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20502

Nice sword turned letdown:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28143

Suspension fittings for sword:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29690

Wol Do (Korean Yinyuedao):
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30765

Tunkou (collar) on swords:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30965

More on tassels:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29674

More on historical aspects of the "tiger hook swords":
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31685

Fast draws from the scabbard:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17965

On Bian (hard whip):
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31287

More great pictures of swords in the Forbidden City:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31962

Taiji jian characteristics and usage (MUST SEE):
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3283

Miao dao (large dao--similar to nodachi):
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3239

Picture of Qing Imperial Guardsmen:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11047

Miao Dao technical information:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26963

Bagua Dao:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7985

Doug

04-03-2004, 03:09 AM

Hi,

First of all, I never meant to bring out your less-than-civil side. That being said, I will address these points:

How good are you with you’re sword? Fine, you know the history and how to tell the quality of a sword, but can you use one? If you were attacked by 6 or 7 people right now, would that knowledge save you’re ass?

With a dao (knife), without a doubt. With a jian, not nearly so certain.

You’re subtle attacks can be seen money, and I ask you are you a racist?
We sat back and thought about this, reread what you wrote and took all kinds of things into consideration; in the end you’re either a racist or a control freak.

I can see why you are so misuderstood and why so many people mistake your comments as angry or negative.

You re-read my posts, sat back, thought about them, took all kinds of things into consideration, and arived at the conclusion that I am a racist? Wow. I was not expecting that. If it were any other situation, I might find responding to this cry worth my while.

This weak BS has got to stop. We are not sages, even if we aspire to be so. And if that is the goal, you don’t need to be here anyway. What gym have you walked in and heard any form of politeness? This is Martial Arts! Get it? War!

Let me repeat what Paul mentioned earlier: To this I can only add "KILLING SPREE!!!!!!!!!"

And every once in awhile, expose the straight frauds that hid behind their PC’s and come off like the “Master” they’ve always fantasized themselves as being.

Plese tell me about these documented cases.

you’re trying to goad me into some lengthy useless dialogue about a topic I know nothing about.

Then WHY did you start arguing in the first place?!

Paul has spanked you enough, but you won’t let it go.

If you call that a spanking, then, sir, you have never been disciplined before.

So I’ll end my part in this by saying this You’re knowledge is useless today, unless tomorrow we put down bullets, bombs and hand grenades and pick up swords and staffs and such.

Given your response, it is quite clear why you feel this way, my non-aggressive man. You really are misunderstood.

And what does that say about your practice? According to you, the foreign armies during the Boxer Rebellion taught "your art" a lesson with the very guns and bullets you say put my part to rest. Why are you throwing your life away if you know that anything you learn is useless?

By the way, what I am talking about will help preserve Chinese culture in the future as a PRIMARY reference, unlike the myth and legend that, while important, easily distorts history.

I’m out.

WAY out...

Your fantasy racist,

Doug M