GM Han's "Si-Lo-Pen-Da" form (1965)

[Shen Zhou]

Han Chin-Tang form Si Lo Pen Da. Does this form have any relation to our Sa Lo Bung Da. It has similer movements and I think from what i read on the website it maybe from the Tam Tui system.

The site is http://emptyflower.stanford.edu/johnwang1.html and the link you need to click is #8. the site also has a pretty good figthing clip of Sifu John Wang figting a Ba Gua guy.

[phil]

learning this form from one of Master Han Qin tang's student's, he said this version was from Guang Bar (sp?) mantis. This version is different from Gao Dao Sheng's version (book available at www.plumpub.com) who is commonly associated with longfist mantis.

P

[Robert Young]

> Han Chin-Tang form Si Lo Pen Da. Does this form have any
> relation to our Sa Lo Bung Da. It has similer movements and I
> think from what i read on the website it maybe from the Tam
> Tui system.

The Si Lo Pen Da form from GM Han was from Long Fist or Jiao Men (Muslim system). There is another Si Lo Pen Da from Seven Star Praying Mantis also. I believe the one from PM is the one you practice. The moves from both forms are very similar. I have seen the one from 7 star PM from my GM Wong Song-Ting. The difference is the order of the sequence mainly. I think your SA Lo Bung Da is prabably the same as the one I saw from our 7 star PM.

I believe Si Lo Pen Da was a form popular in Sang Dong province where 7 star PM and Long Fist were popular. Both systems like the form and used it for their training.

[Robert Young]

> learning this form from one of Master Han Qin tang's student's,
> he said this version was from Guang Bar (sp?) mantis. This
> version is different from Gao Dao Sheng's version (book
> available at www.plumpub.com) who is commonly associated
> with longfist mantis.

After I replied, I saw Phil posted this message.

Gao Dao Sheng's version is the one from GM Wong's Seven Star PM. You can check the book to see if they are more similar to your version. The reason master Gao refer his form as Longfist Mantis is because he started as LongFist student under GM Han and ended up following GM Wong learning 7 star PM. That the way he respect his Long fist root.

And, our Si Lu Beng Da was from Long Fist.

[Fengzi]

Robert Young wrote:


Gao Dao Sheng's version is the one from GM Wong's Seven Star PM. You can check the book to see if they are more similar to your version. The reason master Gao refer his form as Longfist Mantis is because he started as LongFist student under GM Han and ended up following GM Wong learning 7 star PM. That the way he respect his Long fist root...

I seldom post messages in this forum. However, after seeing Mr. Robert Young's recent comments about Wang Songting, Kao Tao-sheng, and the origin of the Silu Benda routine, I was rather urged to take the opportunity to correct some misconceptions about the so-called "Longfist Mantis" branch of Mantis Boxing.

First, Wang Song-ting was not an exponent of Qixing Tanglangquan. His TLQ was of Meihua origin. If you ask Kao Tao-sheng what style of Mantis Boxing he practices and teaches, he will tell you "Meihua Tanglangquan". In fact, there really isn't anyone teaching 7* TLQ on the island. Most of the 7* material that is practiced in Taiwan comes from Wong Hon Fun (Huang Hanxun) books, which can be found in most bookstores here.

I don't know why most books refer to Wang Song-ting as practicing 7*TLQ, but it was probably due to lack of information at the time. Compared to nowadays with the information age, you must consider the fact that it was considered impolite to ask too much questions, especially from one's teachers, during that closed and reserved period of Taiwan's society. Moreover, Wong Hon Fun's books were the only Mantis Boxing books available openly at the time. In addition, Luo Guangyu was a triad brother of Wang Song-ting under the Qing Bang. All this could've easily led to presumption that Wang Songting practiced "Qixing Tanglangquan".

Robert W. Smith was able to observe and film Wang Songting perform during his stay in Taiwan. He wrote about his observation of Wang Songting in his book. Below is an excerpt:



I saw the Shantung boxer Wang Shung-t'ing only once. This was on an occasion when I filmed performances by more than twenty-five leading boxers on Taiwan. He was a swarthy man with evil eyes, but his demonstrations were truly peerless. He performed a drunken boxing form in which one pretends to be tipsy in order to lure an opponent close, then demolishes him. He also showed Mantis Boxing, a linear ripping form in which the elbows are given full play, and T'ai I Sword. Liao Wu-ch'ang told me that he was an underworld figure of note and that on the mainland he had killed men with the sword. I set in motion several approaches to persuade Wang to teach me, but none worked. I was rejected by other boxers but this rejection disappointed me the most. (107)

Smith, Robert W. Chinese Boxing: Masters and Methods. Tokyo: Kodansha International Ltd.,1974.


Mr. Robert Young mentioned that Kao Tao-sheng had started his training in Longfist under Han Qingtang. This, in fact, is incorrect. Although it's true that Kao Tao-sheng was a later student of Wang Song-ting, he did not train under Han Qingtang. Kao Tao-sheng already had received much extensive training in Longfist at the Qingdao Martial Arts Academy (Qingdao Guoshu Guan) and at the Jinan Martial Arts Academy (Jinan Guoshu Guan) before retreating to Taiwan with the Kuomintang. His first teacher was Fang Zhongqing whom he learned Digong (Ground Boxing). On the other hand, Han Qingtang's disciples had trained with Wang Songting in Taipei, namely Shen Maohui, Jiang Changgen, and Tang Kejie. The latter is a good friend of Kao Tao-Sheng.

Finally, I want to clear the misconception of the name "Longfist Mantis Boxing". During the early half of the last century, there were over a hundred martial arts schools in Qingdao city alone. It was quite common for martial artists to exchange skills. Longfist is a major style of boxing in China, and most exponents of Mantis Boxing had some background in Longfist, including Wang Songting. To expand their curriculum, most Mantis exponents absorbed and adapted Longfist techniques and routines to fit their style.

The name "Longfist Mantis" was coined because Kao Tao-sheng could not use the name "Tanglang Men" (Mantis School) when he registered his school at the R.O.C. Kuoshu Association. Zhang Xiangsan (Six Harmony TLQ) with Liu Yunqiao (Bajiquan) had already registered the name "Tanglang Men" earlier with the Kuoshu Association. Therefore, Kao Tao-sheng had no choice but to use "Changquan Tanglang Men" (Longfist Mantis School) to register with the Kuoshu Association.

Over the years, the general public and the Mantis Boxing community has come to see Wang Songting and his disciples as forming another branch of Mantis Boxing. In my opinion, the name "Longfist Mantis" is easily attributed to Wang Songting because of the Xiao Huyan and Silu Benda routines, which had more extended and open postures that are more commonly seen in Longfist. These routines were also more often performed in the public. In fact, Xiao Huyan and Silu Benda are considered elementary routines in Wang Songting's curriculum. He later went on to teach Lanjie and Bazhou. Robert W. Smith was fortunate enough to film Wang Songting perform Lanjie. After viewing Mr. Smith's 8mm film, Wang Songting's definitely had a Meihua flavor to his movements.

[MantisifuFW]

Fengzi,

First of all, thank you for a detailed and very informational post. I learned a great deal.

Secondly, do you know about the Ba zhou taught by Shifu Kao Tao-sheng? I have seen video purporting to be it and it was a very short set of what I believe was four rows. Does this sound correct?

I appreciate your willingness to share information.

Sincerely,

Steve Cottrell

[Tainan Mantis]

Fengzi,
great post. Everything is according to my conclusion except for the 7* in Taiwan issue.
Hao Gengsheng of Shandong taught a 7* short curriculum.
As well as Wu Mu Tsun passing on the 18 Luohan Gung method.

Has Wang Songting's Ba Zhou been preserved by anyone?

Mantisifu FW,
The Gao Dao Sheng Ba Zhou was passed from Zhang De Kuei to my shrfu Shr Zheng Zhong Yang Feng Shr then to Gao Dao Sheng.
It includes the first 3 of 4 sections.

It was also part of the curriculum at Cultural University MA department and so is well known.

[Robert Young]

Fengzi,

After seeing your post, I'm really confused. I have seen Gao Dao-Sheng teaching for many years, about 30 years. The fact is that he did came to our long fist under GM Hang, but he did not stay long. You may not know it though. About GM Wang, wether he is Seven Star or MaiHua TangLang it's confusing for me to say now, from your description. My teacher learned from GM Wang along with several of his long fist brothers. And, they all say it is Seven Star Tang Lang. Jiang Changgen is my teacher for more than 30 year. I have heard him mentioned the GM Wang's lineage many many times. If there is any inconsistent about the lineage, I would like to know why. I also learned from my Long Fist uncle Shen Maohui for about two years also. Uncle Shen learned his double tiger hooks and Monkey form from GM Wang. I think I'm pretty close and familiar to my lineage.

Now, what I need is to call my teacher and have him check with Gao Dao-Sheng and clear out the puzzle. Master Gao and my teacher are still very close. One of his formal student came to learn from my teacher with master Gao's ok recently. I treat him like my own Long Fist brother. I'm also a formal senior student of my teacher. I carry my lineage, and I really like to make sure where my Tang Lang forms came from. Before we debate about the lineage of GM Wang, let me check with my teacher and master Gao. I think it is a kind of thing we all like to clear for sure.

About the name,Long Fist Tang Lang, master Gao DaoSheng used, I heard it from my teacher that master Gao used it because of his Long Fist influence. That was the way he described it, and I totally believed it. If that was not the case, we can check that one too.

Let talk about GM Wang's moves. From my teacher's description, GM Wang's move is open and big like our Long Fist, But that does not mean it has Maihuan influence or not. MeiHua is a northern Shaolin style very similar to Long Fist. One of the most important MeiHua master in Taiwan, Wu, Ti-Pan came from Ji-Nan, San Dong province. Master Wu, or I should say Great grand master Wu, used to live next to my teacher. Master Wu was a generation higher that my GM Hang. Some of his forms are very similar to our forms actually. Long Fist and Mei Hua may have came from a same source originally. I believe that was the way people practice martial arts in San Dong province.

Other things I know about GM Wang. GM Wang learned many many styles and forms. He came from a very rich family and was able to hire many good teachers to learn martial arts from. He was good in many styles, Tang Lang, northern shaolin, Xing-Yi, Ba-gua, you name it. By the time he became famous, he was the main Tang Lang figure in Yen Tai city area. He was so good, my GM Hang sent his eldest son to be GM Wang's formal student.

> Robert W. Smith was fortunate enough to film Wang Songting
> perform Lanjie. After viewing Mr. Smith's 8mm film, Wang
> Songting's definitely had a Meihua flavor to his movements.
Do you have the clips or do you know where I may have a chance to see it. I have been trying to see GM Wang's performce for many years without success. The way we do in Xiao Huyan and Silu Benda are very long fist like becasue we are Long Fist guys. What I would like to know is how GM Wang performed. The reason is, I have only seen my teacher performed once, and that performance really opened my eyes about what our Long Fist look like. Most of my Long Fist brothers have not seen it. If I can see how GM Wang moves, it may give me some hint about what are the difference between Long Fist and GM Wang's Tang Lang.

I'm greatful your trying to correct my understanding about our Seven Star Praying Mantis. I will check with my teacher and see why there is so much difference in this discussion. If you are master Gao's student, I would very like to chat with you and really understand why all this confusion came from.

Sincerely,

[Fengzi]

Sifu Cottrell and Sifu Brazier,

The Bazhou routine that you saw in some unspecified video footage is probably the one that Yang Fengshi's teaches to the public. It's a modified version of Bazhou that mixes parts of Taichi Tanglang and Meihua Bazhou sets. I've learned this Bazhou routine and found out later that it was purposely mixed up after learning the original.

To my knowledge, Yang Fengshi didn't teach Bazhou at the Chinese Culture University's Martial Arts Department. My kungfu brother studied at the university from 1995-1997, and he only learned the First Zhaiyao section.

[Fengzi]

Mr. Robert Young,

If there is any checking to be done with my information, then you are welcome to verify it with your teacher(s) and Kao Tao-sheng. I live just a few blocks from Master Kao's residence and martial arts school.

I believe the student of Kao Tao-sheng, whom you say is also training with Jiang Changgen, is Lin Changxiang from Tanshui County. Indeed, Lin Changxiang has shown me some qinna skills that he's learned from Master Jiang. He also knows Yang Family Spear.

[Tainan Mantis]

Fengzi,
(just Kevin is ok)
I just noticed that you are in Taipei.
Why not introduce yourself?

I was surprised to hear you mention the mixing up in that Bazhou form.
I have heard the exact same thing from my Shrfu's mouth, but didn't know that was a generally known fact.

Some info about Wang Songting.
His MA brother taught a few people in Southern Taiwan.
He is the one who preserved all the manuscripts of the school.
Last I heard they are in his son's possession.

His name is mntioned in Wei Hsiao Tang's tributory sonnet to his different teachers
His Beng Bu, which my shrfu calls Hsiao Beng Bu, is drastically different from any beng bu you see in Taiwan or Master Gao's school.

Robert,
Who is Wu Ti Pan?
A name I have not yet come acrooss.

[Fengzi]

Mr. Robert Young:


After seeing your post, I'm really confused. I have seen Gao Dao-Sheng teaching for many years, about 30 years.
I'm sorry to have brought about any confusion regarding information that I've posted on this forum. All I know is that my information came directly from sources in the Mantis Boxing circles in Taipei, including Kao Tao-sheng himself. You can verify it if you want with my contacts on the island.


The fact is that he [Kao Tao-sheng] did came to our long fist under GM Hang, but he did not stay long.
I'm curious about your above statement. I'd like to verify it; however, it's a sensitive question to ask Kao Tao-sheng. Anyone who's had experience learning from a native-Shandong instructor knows that there's nothing compared to their temper. Thus, the saying "Shandong-ren piqi huai" (Shandong people have bad temper). I've seen Kao Tao-sheng on several occasion get annoyed and then infuriated at a student for being too nosy. That includes myself.

If what you claim that Kao Tao-sheng was a student or trained under Han Qingtang is true, then why doesn't Kao Tao-sheng practice or teach any of the skills or routines that's in Han Qingtang's curriculum? It is known that Han Qingtang was a Jiaomen Changquan (Hui or Chinese Moslem Longfist) exponent. He mostly taught Tantui, Chaquan, and other Northern Longfist styles, as well as material from the Nanjing Zhongyang Guoshu Guan (Nanking Central Martial Arts Academy). He was renown for his qinna and was an instructor for the Taipei Municipal Police Headquarters. Some of the routines he's famous for are his single and two-person Sancai Jian (Three Powers Sword) , Bagua Dao (Eight Trigram Saber), Shilu Tantui, Yang Jia Qiang (Yang Family Spear), Qinna two-person set, etc. Other than Lin Changxiang, I've never seen Kao Tao-Sheng or his senior students ever practice or perform the above routines.

[Fengzi]

Although I've personally heard from Kao Tao-sheng accounts about Han Qingtang learning from Wang Songting, to my knowledge, Kao Tao-sheng's relationship with Han Qingtang extends through Tang Kejie. Both are in friendly terms, and Tang Kejie has even learned some material from Kao Tao-sheng and another Chaquan and Sunbinquan teacher, Sun Xiaotang. I don't know, however, much about Master Kao's relationship with Jiang Changgen. I've never seen them speak to each other, even during martial arts tournaments where they've been invited as honored guests or judges. I do know that Kao Tao-sheng is not in good terms with Shen Maohui over a scuffle they had over a referee decision during a student's fight competition.

I'm sure it was quite easy to get confused who was whose student during the 60's and 70's in Taipei. Mostly everyone practiced at the Taipei New Park (now called 2-28 Memorial Park). Moreover, most of these teachers or students were from Shandong Province and were sure to congregate and talk about "lao xiang" (old hometown).

[Fengzi]

You may not know it though. About GM Wang, wether he is Seven Star or MaiHua TangLang it's confusing for me to say now, from your description. My teacher learned from GM Wang along with several of his long fist brothers. And, they all say it is Seven Star Tang Lang. Jiang Changgen is my teacher for more than 30 year. I have heard him mentioned the GM Wang's lineage many many times. If there is any inconsistent about the lineage, I would like to know why.
First of all, I must say that I respect and acknowledge your more than 30 years of experience training with Jiang Changgen. In my opinion, you are my "zhangbei" (elder). However, to see if what you and Jiang Changgen say that Wang Songting really practiced Seven Star Mantis Boxing is true, then you must first closely examine the genealogy chart of the so-called "Changquan Tanglang" (Longfist Mantis) branch of Mantis Boxing:

Wang Lang
Yu Zhou Dao Ren
Li Bingxiao
Zhao Qilu
Liang Xuexiang
Liang Zhongchuan
Huang Yongkai
Ji Zhongde
Wang Songting

If you examine the persons in the genealogy chart, none of them are related to the Qixing TLQ branch. Most are of the Meihua Tanglangquan school, including the famous Liang Xuexiang. I think that Sifu Kevin Brazier would agree with me on this. Sifu Brazier mentioned on the above post about Wei Xiaotang's tribute sonnet to his different teachers. Indeed, in the tribute, Wei Xiaotang mentions meeting Ji Zhongde at the Shanghai Shandong Hui Guan (Shandong Province Association Hall).


I also learned from my Long Fist uncle Shen Maohui for about two years also. Uncle Shen learned his double tiger hooks and Monkey form from GM Wang. I think I'm pretty close and familiar to my lineage.
I'm not challenging your lineage or where you learned your martial arts. According to my knowledge, the person who was most proficient with Wang Songting's Hushou shuanggou routine was Ma Zhenshan. He was a senior student of Wang Songting.


Now, what I need is to call my teacher and have him check with Gao Dao-Sheng and clear out the puzzle. Master Gao and my teacher are still very close.
Please refer to my above comments.


One of his formal student came to learn from my teacher with master Gao's ok recently. I treat him like my own Long Fist brother.
I appreciate you treating Kao Taosheng's student as if he belonged to the same Longfist family. As they say, "Within the four seas, all men are brothers."

On another note, Kao Tao-sheng has not accepted formal disciples in a long time. If Lin Changxiang is really the person who is training with Jiang Changgen, then he is not a formal disciple of Kao Taosheng.

[Fengzi]

I'm also a formal senior student of my teacher. I carry my lineage, and I really like to make sure where my Tang Lang forms came from. Before we debate about the lineage of GM Wang, let me check with my teacher and master Gao. I think it is a kind of thing we all like to clear for sure.
I'd be delighted to hear what Jiang Changgen has to say about our information. Let me make clear that I'm not making this to be a debate. The word "debate" sounds as if we're having an argument. Let's just say we're "sharing information". ;)

On the other hand, I'd like to know what Tanglangquan routines you've learned from Jiang Changgen. Did you learn the some of the core material, such as Bengbu, Lanjie, Bazhou, Zhaiyao?


About the name,Long Fist Tang Lang, master Gao DaoSheng used, I heard it from my teacher that master Gao used it because of his Long Fist influence. That was the way he described it, and I totally believed it. If that was not the case, we can check that one too.
As I mentioned in my earlier post, Kao Tao-sheng had no choice but to use the Changquan Tanglang Men name for his school. On the other hand, his Tanglangquan does tend to be more open because of his previous Changquan and Digong background. Nevertheless, it's useless and beyond the point to debate, much less argue, about the name that's now attached to Wang Songting's branch of Mantis Boxing. It'll turn out to be like the Gong Sunlong's White-Horse Paradox. Let's just say that Wang Songting's style of Mantis Boxing exists despite whatever anyone calls it.


Let talk about GM Wang's moves. From my teacher's description, GM Wang's move is open and big like our Long Fist, But that does not mean it has Maihuan influence or not. MeiHua is a northern Shaolin style very similar to Long Fist.
There seems to be a confusion as to what we refer to as "Meihua." What I refer to as "Meihua" is Meihua Tanglangquan that is commonly associated with Liang Xuexiang and his disciples, namely Jiang Hualong and Song Zide. What you refer to as "Meihua" is Meihua Men, or the Plum Blossom School of Longfist, especially the branch associated with Wu Tipang. You are definitely correct in referring to your "Meihua" as belonging to the northern style of Shaolin Boxing.

I've trained under the Li Kunshan - Li Dengwu lineage of Meihua Tanglangquan, as well as under the Wang Songting - Kao Taosheng lineage. From watching Robert W. Smith's 8mm footage of Wang Songting's performing Lanjie, I could observe that most of his movements exhibited more of a small, close-range fighting that's characteristic of Mantis Boxing. He did not have the open chest body posture, but had more of a "hanxiong" (hollowed chest) and mostly lowered stance in hanji bu while performing the Tanglangquan routine.

[Fengzi]

One of the most important MeiHua master in Taiwan, Wu, Ti-Pan came from Ji-Nan, San Dong province. Master Wu, or I should say Great grand master Wu, used to live next to my teacher. Master Wu was a generation higher that my GM Hang. Some of his forms are very similar to our forms actually. Long Fist and Mei Hua may have came from a same source originally. I believe that was the way people practice martial arts in San Dong province.
All that you wrote above about Meihua Men and Wu Tipang is correct. I'm familiar with his disciple, Lan Xuru. In fact, I just visited his school last night.


Other things I know about GM Wang. GM Wang learned many many styles and forms. He came from a very rich family and was able to hire many good teachers to learn martial arts from. He was good in many styles, Tang Lang, northern shaolin, Xing-Yi, Ba-gua, you name it. By the time he became famous, he was the main Tang Lang figure in Yen Tai city area.
I heard this exact same story from Kao Tao-sheng. In fact, Wang Songting had owned several boats and would sell one whenever he started learning from another teacher.


He was so good, my GM Hang sent his eldest son to be GM Wang's formal student.
This is the first time I've heard of this information.


Do you have the clips or do you know where I may have a chance to see it. I have been trying to see GM Wang's performce for many years without success.
Robert W. Smith gave us specific instructions not to openly give copies of the film footage.


The way we do in Xiao Huyan and Silu Benda are very long fist like becasue we are Long Fist guys. What I would like to know is how GM Wang performed. The reason is, I have only seen my teacher performed once, and that performance really opened my eyes about what our Long Fist look like. Most of my Long Fist brothers have not seen it. If I can see how GM Wang moves, it may give me some hint about what are the difference between Long Fist and GM Wang's Tang Lang.
In my opinion, Xiao Huyan and Silu Benda were originally Longfist routines that have been absorbed into Wang Songting's Mantis Boxing curriculum. It has some Tanglangquan hand techniques, but the majority of the routines is of Longfist origin, especially Xiao Huyan, which has the characteristic xuanfengtui, erqitui, and 360 degrees hou saotui. You see these techniques mostly in Longfist styles. As a practitioner progresses into the intermediate and advanced level of Mantis Boxing, more emphasis is placed on economy of movement by using shenfa (body mechanics), bu fa (footwork), and tanglang shoufa (Mantis hand techniques).

If you are still interested in watching old Xiao Huyan footage, then I suggest you get a hold of an archive b&w film footage of the 1964 Kuoshu Association tryouts for the R.O.C. Martial Arts Delegate Team. In the footage, Su Yuzhang (Su Kunming) performs Lanjie; Kao Tao-sheng performs Bai Ma Xia Shan (a Digong routine), and some young students performing Xiao Huyan and another older version of Bengbu. In any case, this archive film is available for sale in the United States. It's titled "Chinese Kung Fu" and is produced by Don Warrener through Mastersline Production Inc. It's an invaluable archive film because it features many renown martial artists in Taiwan.

Then again, there's also another old footage of Kao Tao-sheng performing Xiao Huyan that's been posted before in this forum.

http://homepage.mac.com/stevefarrell/images/mantis_form.mov



I'm greatful your trying to correct my understanding about our Seven Star Praying Mantis. I will check with my teacher and see why there is so much difference in this discussion. If you are master Gao's student, I would very like to chat with you and really understand why all this confusion came from.
You're most welcome.

Fengzi

[mantisben]

I just wanted to say, than you for sharing that footage! It is excellent!

[Robert Young]

Hi Tainan Mantis,

> Who is Wu Ti Pan?
He was a Mei Hua master. Many masters, Liu Mu-Sheng, Gong Er-Kang, Shung Fu-Chen, were his students. I heard Liu Mu-Sheng and Shung Fu-Chen have passed away. My Long Fist uncle Fu Song-Nang just published a series of books about his father and his life journal. He mentioned some of those people. If you are in Taiwan, you may want to check it out, or you may already have. My teacher mentioned about master Wu because they used to lived so close together. Master Wu's students covered from Ji-Han Sang Dong all the way to northern Jian Su province.


Hi Fengzi,

> Indeed, Lin Changxiang has shown me some qinna skills that
> he's learned from Master Jiang. He also knows Yang Family
> Spear.
Yes, he is the one came to my teacher. My teacher did not teach him Qunna, but he did correct Lin some moves. Lin seems to be confused about the names of certain QinNa moves. I don't know where he learn his Yang family Spear from. I'll chat with him next time I go back to Taiwan.

> If Lin Changxiang is really the person who is training with Jiang
> Changgen, then he is not a formal disciple of Kao Taosheng.
I thought he is. Lin did not mentioned it,but I thought he is by default. He held a tourament two years ago in Dang-Sui with master Gao's name as the name of tournament. I was there, so was my teacher and Tang Kejie. By that, I thought he is a formal student.

> All I know is that my information came directly from sources in
> the Mantis Boxing circles in Taipei, including Kao Tao-sheng
> himself.
Did master Kao tell you his Tang Lang from GM Wang is Mei Hua Tang Lang personally?

> If what you claim that Kao Tao-sheng was a student or trained
> under Han Qingtang is true, then why doesn't Kao Tao-sheng
> practice or teach any of the skills or routines that's in Han
> Qingtang's curriculum?
Master Gao came to study under Hang much later than my teacher. All I know is that he did not stay very long in Long Fist. Maybe that is why he did not teacher our Long Fist forms. I can only guess. But, I can ask my teacher about this. I think you can check with master Kao about this also. I don't think he will be upset about it.

> However, to see if what you and Jiang Changgen say that
> Wang Songting really practiced Seven Star Mantis Boxing is
> true, then you must first closely examine the genealogy chart of
> the so-called "Changquan Tanglang" (Longfist Mantis) branch
> of Mantis Boxing:
I think I have checked the genealogy you mentioned in the past and I could not find anything as you said about GM Wang's relation to Seven Star mantis. But, that does not mean he was not Seven Start PM. The genealogy today may not reflect the lineage quite completely. Like our Long Fist, I don't have a clean genealogy of our Long Fist except to my GM Hang. Not to mention our PM side.

> I don't know, however, much about Master Kao's relationship
> with Jiang Changgen. I've never seen them speak to each
> other, even during martial arts tournaments where they've
> been invited as honored guests or judges.
Among Long Fist teachers, my teacher is probably the one closest to master Kao. You can check this with master Kao in person. Their relation is very close. Like my teacher and my uncle Shen Mao-Hui. You don't see them talking in public either, but they are very close. I saw them together in my teacher's birthday party, and they behaved totally different than they do in the public.

> I do know that Kao Tao-sheng is not in good terms with Shen
> Maohui over a scuffle they had over a referee decision during a
> student's fight competition.
I do know the incident. And my teacher was caught in the middle.

> I've trained under the Li Kunshan - Li Dengwu lineage of
> Meihua Tanglangquan, ...
I though Li KunShan is Seven Start Praying Mantis. I think I saw some articles about him and his Seven Star PM. My teacher did mention master Li's teacher was GM Wang's PM brother. And, somehow they are related.
Did master Li tell you his PM is Mei Hua PM personally? I'm really interested in this. Not I don't believe you. But, the stories told on the street or books are not quite what they usually were, especially things related to Chinese martial arts.

> On the other hand, I'd like to know what Tanglangquan
> routines you've learned from Jiang Changgen. Did you learn the
> some of the core material, such as Bengbu, Lanjie, Bazhou,
> Zhaiyao?
We have Tang Lang Sou and Shao Hu Yen.
My Longfist uncles learned SiLu BenDa, Fang Tse (I don't know da or xiao), double hooks and monkey form, and maybe double broadsword. I think my teacher also learned spear vs. Da Dao and two man empty hand with Ma Zuo-Chi. That is about all I know. I don't think any of the PM forms you mentioned have been past down to our side.

> He did not have the open chest body posture, but had more of
> a "hanxiong" (hollowed chest) and mostly lowered stance in
> hanji bu while performing the Tanglangquan routine.
My meaning of open move is not open chest body posture, What I meant is that the moves are big and open. My teacher did mentioned about GM Wang's "HanXiong BarBei". He said GM Wang is the only person he has seen who can do that beautifully.
Many GM Wang's students have tried to do that and most of them failed.

> especially Xiao Huyan, which has the characteristic xuanfengtui,
> erqitui, and 360 degrees hou saotui. You see these techniques
> mostly in Longfist styles.
This is interesting. The moves you mentioned in Xiao HuYan also show up in our Tang Lang Sou. Our Longfist froms do not have that sequence actually. We have double kicks but not with Hou SaoTui. In fact, there is no Hou SaoTui in our Longfist forms at all. That maybe one the common misunderstanding of our Longfist moves.
SiLu BenDa is not a entry form to us either, neither is Xiao HuYan. Maybe our interpretation is different. Our SiLu BenDa is one of our high level form.

> If you are still interested in watching old Xiao Huyan footage,
> then I suggest you get a hold of an archive b&w film footage of
> the 1964 Kuoshu Association tryouts for the R.O.C. Martial Arts
> Delegate Team.
I have seen the film. My teacher is in the film, also the Mue Hui master Liu Mu-Shen. Su YuZhang you mentioned also came to study with GM Han and left. Su did not teach our Longfist forms either from what I know.

About my GM Han's son with GM Wang. I saw that from the book published last year by Fu Song-Nan. And, I remembered my teacher mentioned about it long time ago.

Let keep sharing,

[mickey]

Greetings Brothers,

I don't mean to intrude on the sharing but I have seen the Chinese Kung fu tape with that form on it. Is there another media source that better shows it?

mickey