8 chain punch of Wah Lum Mantis

[Tainan Mantis]

I learned 8 Chain punch but the precise details escape me.
Would someone be so kind as to write out the moves.

I ask this question because I believe that this basic exercise is another version of what TJPM calls "strike four doors".

According to my understanding this method as I learned it from TJPM's Mantis108 should be among the oldest and most important aspects of PM.
It is quite simple though, as any good theory should be.

Confirming the similarity will be one more step in connecting WL Mantis to Sun Yuan Chang's lineage as I believe with a small degree of evidence that that is where WL PM's mantis comes from.

Furthermore, if someone can get MC Chan's ear it would be nice to hear the Chinese name of this 8 chain punch. I think a language barrier has caused it to be translated not quite perfectly.

[PlumBlossomPalm]

Ping Choi, straight punch
Gwa Choi, Crushing or Rolling Fist
Chow Choi, Upper Cut
Bien Choi (?), Whipping Back Fist
Huen Choi, Circle Punch
Cern Ping Choi, Double Straight Punch
Dai Huen Choi, Big Circle Punch
Dai Chang Choi, Low Side Punch

[mantis108]

Thank you Tainan for bringing up a great topic. I think what we are touching on one of the important concepts of Tanglang - "Si Fang Ba Mian Da" (four directions eight faces strike). We have yet to see how TJPM's "Da Si Men" connects with 8 Chain Punches of Wah Lum.

Personally, and I stress a straight personal view, I believe that Wah Lum might have something to do with Bao Guangying who seemed to have passed down a manuscipt titled "Meihua Tanglang Shuaishou Tupu". His lineage(s) can be found in Beijing (?) and as far south as Guangdong (canton). From the impression that I have of a clip from one of their forms. I tend to think it might have ties with Jiang Hualong's side of things. Why would I think that? Here's a reason:

Jiang Hualong and Sun Yuan Chang seem to differ quite a bit in their approaches to Mantis. Jiang Hualong would be more rooted down and there are fewer kicks. This could have something to do with his physique (short and stocky). He also seemed to favor Yuhuan Bu (Jabe ring step) more so than the other footwork namely Hanji Bu (winter rooster) aka monkey step. I would think of him as a breaking the gate (Po Men) specialist. Because of the way he fights which often end up throwing or bumping someone off, he was often described by others that he's a great Qigong exponent.

Sun Yuan Chang is not so well known. From the lineages that associated with his teaching, which includes CCK TCPM, I think his approach is more about Zhan Zhuan Teng Nuo (body methods) which make good use of Hanji Bu and kicks. It is dynamic and based a lot more on finesse. BTW, this doesn't mean that Jiang's approach has no finesse. This just means that Sun was more of a finesse fighter relative to Jiang who is more of a power fighter. This is perhaps the reason why people would think that Sun Yuan Chang's Shou Fa is amazing. Finesse sometimes implies aesthetically pleasing but it is subject to the eyes of the beholders. This is just differences in characters and attributes. There are more different types of kicks in the forms in Sun's approach.

I recently came across some old forms Quanpu that were said to have came from Jiang Hualong. They included 2 very interesting forms. One is called "Feng Mao Chuan" (Pheonix's Plume Circle). The other "Kailu" (open road) might be more of an interest to Wah Lum because of the form big mantis of WL seem to be remarkably similar to the openning of the Kailu form. Since I have only seen the pu but not the form, I would have to be cautious and reserve about the possible link. I will try to attached the A
Quanpu here if people are interested.

Mantis108

[Frogman]

Plum Blossom Palm,
You have described the eight basic punches. Eight chain punch is a basic exercise that consist of block punch, turn block punch, done in a set of eight sequences.
TM,
To me eight chain punch is similar to a Karate type kata, at least in the beginning. I can now see the importance of such a basic exercise as I watch others go through it. The moves as I stated above short block long punch. Perhaps my Sifu can help you with the details, as I do not want to over speak nor give inaccurate data. Even the simplest forms can have more to them then meets the eye. I look forward to your results.

RibHit
fm
:cool:

[Joe Mantis]

Tainan Mantis

8 Chain Punch (as I was taught)

AFter the WL ebay....

Open into a ma bu. 3 straight punches, beginning with the Left hand.
Step w/left foot into Lt forward stance: Block w/Lt arm and straighht punch with right. Step forward again, block w/Rt arm, Lt straight punch. Rt forward stance

Turn to your left (180 degrees), block w/lt hand, rt straight punch.
Turn Rt 90 degrees, rt block, Lt hand straight punch.

AGain Turn 180 Lt, Lt block, Rt punch. Again 90 Degrees Rt, Rt block, Lt punch.

turn 180 to left. (original facing position) Lt block, Rt punch.

All stances are in Hill climb/Forward stance.

Hope this helps.
Any luck with the Yao Ling Kuen info?

Joe Mantis

[Tainan Mantis]

Thanks JM,
WL folks, does this conform to everyone?

TJPM is in there for a fact.
What I see is that WL put a head and tail on an even shorter exercise, of only 4 punches.
The repetitive turning is that which embodies the PM principles.

Two important differences.
1. In WL version when turning 90 degrees TJPM turns 180 degrees and vice versa
2. a biggy.
TJPM uses that old principle of stepping called "hou shr hanji bu"
We can translate as monkey manuover with stepping of the winter rooster.

This type of stepping is the most difficult to coordinate.

So I noticed that my beginner students who where uncoordinated performed this drill like WL.

Hence, thru circumstantial evidence, I deduced that the WL verson was the TJPM version which had been simplified, maybe when LKS moved south, to accomadate many uncoordinated new students he had suddenly acquired.

Afterwards the "hou shr hanji bu" was lost or not popularly taught.
With the result that this exercise in WL has a very Southern style flavor.

Here is TJPM version
1. jump forward on right foot-right stance right punch
2. jump back on left foot-empty stance left punch
3. turning left 90 degrees-jump back on right foot-empty stance right punch
4. turning right 180 degrees-jump back on left foot-empty stance left punch
5. from this new direction you begin with #1.

So in this drll this is no start or finish like in WL.
More important, it goes on forever, it serves a purpose of skipping rope cardio while imparting essential aspects of PM motion, trapping and striking.

Mantis108,
I really want to see the clip you mention.

[PlumBlossomPalm]

Oops my bad,

I was always taught that this is 4 directional fist. because you are moving in all four directions. Why 8 chain punch? you are not using all 8 punches linked together. Anyone knows?

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

PlumBlossomPalm
Common mistake for beginners to confuse 8 Basic Punches with 8 Chain Punch.

Tainan Mantis
I don't know of anyone in or out of WL that has modified Baat Choy. Joe Mantis described it acurately. Other than the opening moves it can be done continously without end. Or at least until you get dizzy. :-)

8 Chain Punch (Baat Choy) can be thought of as 8 Continous Punches. If you notice, WL has 8 Basic Stances - 8 Basic Punches - 8 Basic Kicks, but not 8 Basic Blocks. What's taught as a block in Baat Choy is actually a Gwa Choy used as a clearing motion before punching. When this exercise is done quickly you see the 4 directions continous punching. It's a good coordination exercise and is an early introduction to combining hands and feet.

[Jack Squat]

Great posts everyone..........

PlumBlossomPalm-I believe it's called "8 chain" because there are 8 linked punches (the first set of three that are done in ma bu are counted as "one" strike). If you count that as one, the total number of strikes is eight.

There is a huge difference in a beginner who does this exercise and an advanced practioner. The newbies make it look like a karate form, while the experienced make it look like "continuous 4 direction boxing". I have heard many complain of this exercise (too karate like, etc) but those who say such things have never seen it done in the fluid, constant motion manner in which it should be performed.

I think that it is a great exercise for beginners. Thanks everyone for their insights into this seemingly simple exercise.

[PlumBlossomPalm]

Hua Lin Laoshi
Always Learning

Registered: Dec 1969
Location: Kissimmee, Florida
Posts: 364
PlumBlossomPalm
Common mistake for beginners to confuse 8 Basic Punches with 8 Chain Punch.


Oh OK, LOL

actually,

1) I just misread the post

2) Was taught that it was 4 directional fist

If that makes me a beginner, I guess i am according to you. since I learned it about 10 years ago.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

PlumBlossomPalm
I thought about that afterwards but couldn't tell anything about you by your profile. You say you learned it 10 years ago but did you continue on with Wah Lum? Where do you train? I suspect you learned from from someone who left WL but continued teaching it since you learned it as "4 directional fist" instead of 8 Chain Punch. You can send me a PM if you want to remain anonymous on this forum.

Whether you are a beginner or not it's still a common mistake. Quite often a student will say they know 8 Chain Punch when asked but then do the 8 Basic Punches.

[PlumBlossomPalm]

" I suspect you learned from from someone who left WL but continued teaching it since you learned it as "4 directional fist" instead of 8 Chain Punch."


You have suspected correctly.

[FlowerForest]

I learned the movements described by Joe Mantis under the name 8 Chain Punch. My teacher is someone who is no longer on the official certified list (and probably hasn't been for more than 30 years) but makes no bones about having attained teaching level in Wah Lum.

In other places on this board it has been asserted that the Wah Lum of today is not the same as the Wah Lum pre 1984. The version of 8 Chain Punch that I learned would have been from the 70s when Master Chan was teaching in Boston. So that might help also in terms of tracking this form in recent times.

These movements were taught to me as a "basic exercise" and not as a form. It was the first thing I learned. I remember learning a lot about not getting dizzy and remembering which turn goes where.

I was told that this is one of those things which contains nearly everything that is needed in a self-defense situation; even though it's a basic thing it works and develops critical skills for application. I believe that more now than I did when I was told it.

It's also enjoyable to watch people try to teach these movements to new students because there are so many ways to describe the turning movements and nearly all of them confuse new students. Which isn't really a bad thing, a little confusion is good sometimes.

I agree with the people who feel that it seems kind of karate-like until you've worked it through enough. Also, in my practice of it anyway, the way the steps are taken in between each position is one of those fine tunings that makes all the difference.

I am interested to hear more about Tainan's theory on the potential connection between Wah Lum and Sun Yuan Chang. I don't get overly worked up about lineage stuff, I'm simply curious. I've started to consider doing a comparative study of forms available on YouTube to see which styles may have the closest similarities. But maybe that's a total waste of time.

I'd love to see a version of TJPM's strike four doors that is considered canonical.

[Yao Sing]

Wow, blast from the past!:eek:

[Featherstone]

I've noticed that 8 chain and buddah rings the bell exercises confuse a lot of newer students. I've been trying to show one of newer older students 8 chain, he was a goju practitioner for 15 years, and has a lot of the basics but the man moves like a brick house.

Ah well, good times!

[18elders]

I think first we have to have solid proof that 8 chain punch even came from wah lum's LKS and was not something MC added or obtained from one of his kung fu friends.

[ironfenix]

i agree with steve.

and for hualin, i remember reading somewhere where 8 punches was listed under baat choy faat, and 8 chain punch was list as baat solin kyun or something like that. but that is my weird memory opening up something that i have not thought about for many years... and i have not the slightest idea where i read that.

[Yao Sing]

Should be Baat Leen Choy, that would be 8 Chain (or Linked) Punch. I have no clue as to the origin but entry level basics are probably about the same whatever the style.

MC did say that he didn't have a lot of forms when he started teaching so I would think he had more simplified exercises (7 Kicks, 16 Hands, maybe Little Mantis) and individual techniques. Basics and a couple of forms like the old old days.

[yu shan]

I have always been fond of Little Mantis form, but you can have 8-chain punch.

[Yao Sing]

I think first we have to have solid proof that 8 chain punch even came from wah lum's LKS and was not something MC added or obtained from one of his kung fu friends.

Don't mean to argue but what does it matter? All of MC's Wah Lum did not come from LKS and it's not a secret. And what he learned from his KF elders may have come from LKS also since they trained before he did.

Wah Lum isn't a complete system passed down intact generation after generation. It's a village style based on a combination Tan Tui (LKS family style) and Northern Praying Mantis (from the monestary in the Wal Lum district). It was taught in the south by a professional escort (bodyguard) who most likely incorporated anything he picked up during his professional career.

MC's elders, mostly uncles as LKS was hired by his father to teach and protect the village (extended family), passed on what they knew to him since he was the youngest. This did not happen in a void as there were many influences in the Guangdong area at the time. For a northern style to remain complete without outside influence in southern China is probably impossible. And it's not readily known whether any other 'teachers' are involved in what was incorporated into the current Wah Lum system. That's the CLF connection.

Hope that clears up a few things up although I am not the official historian so feel free to believe what you want.

Edit: And to avoid confusion for those who don't know, since this is a very old thread, I'm Hua Lin Laoshi.

[18elders]

It doesn't really matter to me, but to try to link wah lum to tcpm then i think it is important where 8 chain punch came from. if he got it from choy li fut or one of his hung gar friends then it is hard to say 8 chain punch came from tcpm. that was my original point.

[Yao Sing]

Ok, fair enough. I leave those things to the historians like Keven. It's all interesing but I'm more concerned with damaging the human body with the least effort. :p

It's such a basic exercise it could have come from anywhere, Tan Tui maybe. I did similar in Karate. Haven't seen it as such in CLF.

Somebody should post a clip of it in the main forum and see what the masses think.

You know, 36 Hands was created to compete in southern tournaments. So how does a northern style practitioner create a southern form? Obviously he knows some southern style kung fu. So I'm sure there was a southern influence in the beginning. Whatever came after that could be all southern for all we know.

[Yao Sing]

WTF is this??!! I was looking to see if it was on youtube already.

Karate 8 Chain Punch? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqBSpZWz2OY)

Weird angles though.

[18elders]

that video was hilarious, someone needs to strip that black belt off the guy

[Yao Sing]

Found Wah Lum Beng Bu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=burV6gUJ_Z0).

[mooyingmantis]

Found Wah Lum Beng Bu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=burV6gUJ_Z0).

I wonder if this was a creation of Shifu Chan? It has only a few moves similar to HK Seven Star Bung Bu and even less in common with Meihua versions of Beng Bu.

Nice looking form though, regardless of the origin.

[Yao Sing]

I never even recognized it as Beng Bu until Kevin pointed it out. I do see where WL does variations of moves found in other NPM styles. Since MC has a bunch of manuscripts, and knows how to interpret them, I sometimes get the impression that some of the moves are the interpreted version of standard NPM moves.

Like the waist chop, I believe WL has it's own version that would fit the description but look different. There are others too.

I really don't think MC created it though. It's probably one of the few forms he brought with him when he first came here.

[18elders]

i have seen 2 different versions, one version was from chan wan ching. they are pretty close.

[mickey]

Greetings,

Question:

Baat Leen Choy= Eight Chain (Connected, Linked, Continuous) Hammers?

Edit: I did some small web based research using the Eight Hammers and found a thread that links it to Taiji Praying Mantis, the style developed by Grandmaster Chiu Chuk Kai. Look at paragraph seven, Master Fong lists all eight hammers (fist techniques):

http://www.i-chuan.net/pages2/Choy8.html

Do the hammers line up with what you have?

More: In the "Master Praise" section of Tornado Broadswords (if not there then it is in the First Fist Form Book) Grandmaster Chiu openly acknowledged that he and Grandmaster Chan corresponded with each other. If these punches line up, then is it possible that Grandmaster Chiu may have been the source.

Please notice that I am not saying anything declarative about the connection other than the possibility.


mickey

[yu shan]

A reliable source told me that Chan Pui use to visit Master Chiu Chuk Kai. Who knows, maybe there was an exchange of information. I always had a hunch all those Hong Kong Masters in those days maybe shared.

Yao, I learned Big Mantis from Sean Cochran. This version you put up is similar, but the one Sean taught has more details and done alot more powerful. Note: this fellow was probably just showing the form. Anywho, you can clearly see the beng bu. Thinking about breaking this one out for old times sakes!

Merry Christmas!

Jim

[mickey]

Greetings,

If the correspondences line up, I'd find it amusing because Mantis108 has had a fascination about Wah Lum's influences for years and all he had to do was look in his own back yard, for starters; unless he knew all along.

mickey

[Yao Sing]

i have seen 2 different versions, one version was from chan wan ching. they are pretty close.

I've been wanting to catch up to you about that. Last time I was in Tampa I didn't have time to visit anyone but maybe next time.


A reliable source told me that Chan Pui use to visit Master Chiu Chuk Kai. Who knows, maybe there was an exchange of information. I always had a hunch all those Hong Kong Masters in those days maybe shared.

Yao, I learned Big Mantis from Sean Cochran. This version you put up is similar, but the one Sean taught has more details and done alot more powerful. Note: this fellow was probably just showing the form. Anywho, you can clearly see the beng bu. Thinking about breaking this one out for old times sakes!

Merry Christmas!

Jim

I've talked with students from early days that started out with what's currently considered advanced sets. Maybe he needed some beginner material so he could move his core sets to the higher levels.

Also, I don't know anything about the guy in the clip or where he learned it but it seems to be about the same as I learned but maybe like you said missing a little detail. Haven't looked that closely at it.

Mickey
In the First Form book the forward by Shek Kin calls it Shantung Praying Mantis as does Chiu Chuk Kai in his forward in the Tornado Broadsword book. CCK also said he never met him but only corrosponded. However, Paul Kwan (TCPM) wrote a forward in the First Form book also so there's two TCPM connections.

[mickey]

Yao Sing,

If you read my post carefully, I never wrote they met. I did write, like yourself, that they corresponded with each other.

mickey

[Yao Sing]

Sorry, didn't mean to imply (If you read my post carefully, I never said you said they met), just mentioning, like you did, what is in the book since I had both within reach.

[FlowerForest]

Thanks for keeping it civil guys, I can tell from previous posts that these kinds of issues can raise emotions.

I'm grateful that there seems to be some useful stuff coming up in this thread. I need to get those three books mentioned as well.

In relation to 8 Chain Punch, it was taught to me as a "basic exercise" of which I have heard there were/many. Some of the people in my school have referred to 8 Chain Punch as "9th Basic Exercise" but only rarely. None of them consider it a form but it does have a name and people work on it and keep it handy.

[TenTigers]

I think you're reading way too much into all this. Eight chain punch is one of those forms people make up to put in their curriculums because they don't have any beginner's sets for newbs to start off with. The same goes for Little Mantis and Sixteen Hands. (I learned some Wah Lum from a guy in the early 80's-those sets along with Eight Kicks, Single stick and broadsword))
The Karate guy (United Studios Shaolin Kempo)doing it is because Steve DeMasco studied with Yao Li in Boston and brought the wah-lum forms into his teaching for his advanced students. They mixed it in with some of the Hung-Ga/Fu Jow forms he learned from Ng Tak Wah, hence the Hung-Gar-amatized opening.

[TenTigers]

It's funny how these forms go around. I used to teach it, but modified it somewhat, taught it at a Chinese Center to the children. One of those kids evidently taught it to Sifu Gau (the wushu guy who played the Marshal in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon,) who now teaches my modified version to HIS students! I further modified it to better fit in with the foundational skills I wanted to teach and it is our beginner's first form,"Siu Sup Ji Kuen."

[mickey]

Yao Sing,

I reread your post. My apologies.


mickey

[Yao Sing]

8 chain punches at dawn, the survivor doesn't have to apoligize!!! :D

So does anyone find the reference to Shantung Praying Mantis interesting or meaningful?

[mickey]

HAHAHA!!

I love that one Yao Sing.

With regard to the Shantung Mantis reference, I found that to be the way the older generation referred to different styles-- by their place of origin.

mickey

[Yao Sing]

I was more curious about any other references to Shantung Praying Mantis outside the Wah Lum sphere of influence.

[Tainan Mantis]

Just in case some of you missed this post on Wah Lum's older forms.

Here are the original 12 forms of Lee Kwan Shan.
The Cantonese as it was given to me by an elder of MC Chan, the Mandarin is my addition.

1.bung bo -beng bu AKA big mantis
2.lan jeet -lan jie
3.baht zhao -ba zhou
4.tam toy -tan tuei
5.lin wahn jurng -lien huan zhang? (continuous palms)
6.teet bay sow -tieh men suan- iron door bolt AKA Little Mantis
7.dai fan che -da fan che
8.yat lo lin wahn tam toy - yi lu lien huan tan tuei- first route continuous tan tuei
9.yee lo lin wahn tam toy - second route continuous tan tuei
10.saam lo lin wahn tam toy- third route continuous tan tuei
11.yau ling kuen
12.yin ji chuen lum

Number six on the list is known by most as Little Mantis, but that is just a nickname. The true name of the form is Iron Door Bolt.

I have always wondered if this is a link from Wah Lum's Iron Door Bolt to an older generation of Mantis.

I have an article on this subject here Iron Door Bolt (http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.com/Articles/2011/Iron%20Door%20Bolt.htm) which talks about where the name and technique Iron Door Bolt come from in my own research.

The difference being that I have only found Iron Door Bolt as a technique, while in Wah Lum it is clearly a form. But, could that be a form named after a technique?
In the way that "White Ape Steals the Peach" was a technique, but it is also a form?

[mooyingmantis]

Just in case some of you missed this post on Wah Lum's older forms.

Here are the original 12 forms of Lee Kwan Shan.
The Cantonese as it was given to me by an elder of MC Chan, the Mandarin is my addition.

1.bung bo -beng bu AKA big mantis
2.lan jeet -lan jie
3.baht zhao -ba zhou
4.tam toy -tan tuei
5.lin wahn jurng -lien huan zhang? (continuous palms)
6.teet bay sow -tieh men suan- iron door bolt AKA Little Mantis
7.dai fan che -da fan che
8.yat lo lin wahn tam toy - yi lu lien huan tan tuei- first route continuous tan tuei
9.yee lo lin wahn tam toy - second route continuous tan tuei
10.saam lo lin wahn tam toy- third route continuous tan tuei
11.yau ling kuen
12.yin ji chuen lum

How can this be accurate when it excludes the Zhai Yao series of forms taught to Li Kunshan by his master Jiang Hua Long? Did Li Kunshan change Mantis that much?

[18elders]

they are 2 different masters with the same name.

[Yao Sing]

And since he spent time hiding out after killing some notorious bandits that might not be his real name. There was some evidence of him teaching in Vietnam I believe but what really is known of the man before his teaching and escort adventures. They seemed to change their names quite a bit in those days.

Lee Kwan Shan - the early years. :D

[mooyingmantis]

they are 2 different masters with the same name.

Thank you for the correction! :)