What a Fraud!

[Empty Fist]

Just wanted to see what people thought of the email below. I’ve been taking Tai Chi Chuan for the past 2 ½ years. I decided to expand my learning into a different martial art since my Tai Chi teacher had nothing really new to offer. Good Tai Chi Chuan teachers are hard to come by in my area. Anyway, I sent an email to this so called master. His website is http://www.wtakung-fu.com. The website is really not that informative. So decided to ask this guy some questions (refer to the email below). His response (his English needs some work) took me by surprise. Just wanted to see what people thought about this.

MY EMAIL

Dear Master Jeon:

I am thinking about taking Kung Fu. I have some questions which I have listed below. I have a diverse martial arts background which includes Judo, Karate, and Tai Chi Chuan Yang Style which I have been studying for the past 2 ½ years. Out of all of the martial arts that I have mentioned above, I have enjoyed Tai Chi the most since it addresses two critical components: health and self-defense.

Tai Chi:
From whom did the teacher obtain instruction (lineage)? How long have you studied? What style of Tai Chi do you teach? Do you teach push hands? Do you teach self defense applications as it relates to Tai Chi?

Kung Fu:
What style of Kung Fu do you teach? From whom did the teacher obtain instruction (lineage)? How long have you studied? Is sparring required?

General:
Are there any contracts? If so what are the terms (monthly, 3 months, 6 months, etc.) How much does it cost a month to train? Do you have to join a federation? How many federations? Are their any sash/belt test? If so how much are tests? How many sashes/belts are there? How many times a week can you train? How many current active students are there? Are free lessons available for both Tai Chi and Kung Fu?

Thank you for your time.

HIS REPSONSE:

Sorry.
You are not a Martial Atr Practician.
Looking for Other School. Thank you for Interested.
Master Jong Hoon Jeon.


MY RESPONSE:

Jeon ,

I take offense when you say I'm not a martial art practitioner. A "real master" would be open to questions to his students/potential students. None of my questions were off base or offensive in my opinion. The term master is used very loosely today especially in today's "McDojo" environment. Sorry, but I have no idea what your credentials are. Thanks for not wasting my time. Also thanks for the email. You just gave me a reason to train harder.

[rogue]

Sounds like a bit of culture clash. Some non-westernized masters my take some 2.5 year training newb asking 20 questions as insulting.

After looking at their homepage I'd look for a good karate, muay thai, judo or BJJ school before I went there. At least sifu looks like h'd come in handy when changing the oil on the school van.:p

[Xdr4g0nx]

I tjink his response is because u a looking for a school while studing at another school. I might have thogh yoo are not loyal to ur sifu. I have had a similar experience with another sifu. But not as bad. He just asked me to tell my sifu to call him. He didn't want to offend my current sifu. If u just get ur sifu to send him a e-mail asking the questions for u he might be willing to answer.

[Empty Fist]

That's a good one. Maybe he works at Jiffy Lube on the side. I hear what you are saying about a possible cultural clash but look at William C C Chen's website. At least you know what his credentials are. My view on culture is that if live in a foreign country you need to adopt to its culture and customs. If not get back on the boat you came on.

[Empty Fist]

Xdr4g0nx,

Good point but TT Liang had over 15 martial art instructors. If he thought I was offending my current instructor he should have asked but for the current record I have not studied with my Tai Chi instructor for over 5 months. Bottom line is that he nothing new to offer. Not to say that Tai Chi is easy to learn. Its not. It's a life time art. I just wanted to learn something more about the martial applications. Push hands takes you only so far. I have taken several Shotokan Karate classes. Probably stick it out with that. At least some of the principals/ forms are similar so my Tai Chi training was not a waste :p

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Empty Fist
That's a good one. Maybe he works at Jiffy Lube on the side. I hear what you are saying about a possible cultural clash but look at William C C Chen's website. At least you know what his credentials are. My view on culture is that if live in a foreign country you need to adopt to its culture and customs. If not get back on the boat you came on.

So you aren't an advocate of multiculturalism then? :)

[Empty Fist]

So you aren't an advocate of multiculturalism then?

Oh boy. I knew this would come up. Some one is going to cry out anti-American, neo nazi or something. I'm all for multiculturalism but when you deal with the public you need to adopt to the general culture of that society:)

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Empty Fist


Oh boy. I knew this would come up. Some one is going to cry out anti-American, neo nazi or something. I'm all for multiculturalism but when you deal with the public you need to adopt to the general culture of that society:)

Easy boy, I was joking.

I agree that when dealing with the public you should be aware of, and try to conform to the social conventions of the country you are in. However, I guess you could also argue that you want to learn something from his culture, so you need to allow for the social conventions of his culture as well.

[Empty Fist]

Easy boy, I was joking. I agree that when dealing with the public you should be aware of, and try to conform to the social conventions of the country you are in. However, I guess you could also argue that you want to learn something from his culture, so you need to allow for the social conventions of his culture as well.

No offense taken. I knew you were joking. I agree what you say about social conventions but its a two way street no matter how you look at it. I have met various Masters of CMA. William CC Chen is probably the most humblest one I met. This Jeon guy was a complete ass in my opinion.

[anton]

Originally posted by rogue
Sounds like a bit of culture clash. Some non-westernized masters my take some 2.5 year training newb asking 20 questions as insulting.

Yeah I'd say this is the problem. I know my old sifu would have gotten pretty ****ed off if someone came in and drilled him with all these questions. He'd probably interpret it as a challenge. Not making any comment on whether I think this is wrong or right or whether I believe in multiculturalism or assimilation. Next time you consider going to a cma school where the instructor seems pretty old-school it's probably better to go in, start a conversation and drop some of these questions in occasionally, in a conversational way. Don't make it look like an interrogation or like you're questioning his authenticity/validity.

[Empty Fist]

Next time you consider going to a cma school where the instructor seems pretty old-school it's probably better to go in, start a conversation and drop some of these questions in occasionally, in a conversational way. Don't make it look like an interrogation or like you're questioning his authenticity/validity

Why not???? If you don’t want to answer these types of questions then don’t open a school to the public. Like I said, the term master is used very loosely especially in today’s McDojo environment. Sorry just because you are oriental and have the term master behind your name does not mean squat or that you are qualified to teach. He provides no background about himself which I think is very odd especially for a website.

[kungfu cowboy]

Simple. Irregardless of whatever is meant by "culture" here you have a right to know exactly what you are paying for, and nobody should mind a question (or twenty) as long as it is directed along those lines. Buyer beware.

[KWUsCRD]

I would suggest now talking to him face to face to show him that you are serious about becoming his student.

I believe if this is all it took for you to give up, then you weren't really serious about becoming his student in the first place.

Worse case scenario, he turns you down and you walk away knowing why with some respectable closure. Not 3 e-mails and a cramp in your day.

[Empty Fist]

I would suggest now talking to him face to face to show him that you are serious about becoming his student. I believe if this is all it took for you to give up, then you weren't really serious about becoming his student in the first place. Worse case scenario, he turns you down and you walk away knowing why with some respectable closure. Not 3 e-mails and a cramp in your day.

I took my time to write an email to him. That should be enough to show I’m serious. If that’s what he wanted then why does he have en email address at the website to submit questions? Hell why does he have a website at all?? I’ve dealt with various martial arts instructors over the years and never had a response like the one he gave. I’ll go somewhere else to train if this is the kind of attitude he is going to have when someone asks him a valid question. Hell, I’m surprised the guy has students. Sorry, but I’m not going to give him the satisfaction of putting him on a pedestal. The respect between instructor and student has to be mutual. Quoting Sly “he drew first blood not me”.

[anton]

I'm not talking about how they should or shouldn't behave. I'm talking about how they do behave. It is possible the guy you sent an email to simply didn't have any answers. But it is a reality that many masters of the old school tend to have deeply entrenched attitudes. They acquired their training in environments where McKwoons were rare, and the title Master actually meant something, and called for respect. The sifu I trained with was very well respected both in the Style that he taught and in South East Asian kung fu circles. He had a very solid lineage (which he actually had posted on a wall in the kwoon). But God help you if you came in and asked him 20 questions about his background or came in and asked to spar with him. Personally if I find a sifu who I suspect is from a similar cultural environment but who, I suspect, has a lot of good material to teach, I will be cautious in asking questions simply because I know that I can't teach him a lesson in Western culture and I am willing to put up with his entrenched values to learn what he has to offer.
It's not about whether what he is doing is right or wrong, it's just a matter of having patience at the start and making your inquiries in a way that doesn't offend his (unjustified) cultural beliefs. If you're too principled and picky, you may end up passing up the opportunity to study with some great masters and learn some great material... IMHO it wouldn't be worth it.

[cerebus]

Heh, heh! Dude, relax, ignore, get on with life. :D

[Goldenmane]

The site has disappeared.

:(

[KWUsCRD]

Originally posted by Goldenmane
The site has disappeared.

:(

Remove the period at the end of the url he posted and try again.

[heelkick]

- I've got to agree with Empty Fist on a lot of his comments here. This sifu needs to assimilate to American culture, not we to his. This IS the United States.

- Judging by the looks of the pictures on his site, the place looks McKwoon all the way. Lots of killer runts and over eager parents.

- Sorry, if I ask a sifu a series of questions as to how I feel and what I'm looking for in martial arts instruction, and if he misinterprets my questions as a challenge, maybe he needs to check his ego.

- I don't like sifus who act like they can walk on water

- Sounds like this guy is unapproachable. I call it being able to communicate with the person you're paying money to. I am the paying customer. That's why I left the Shaolin Long Fist school I was attending here in Orange County, it wasn't until you reached higher levels before you could approach him with questions.

Culture clash? That's cool, I'll just take my "Culture Cash" and go someplace else, which is exactly what the heck I did and I'm so happy about it.

[Xdr4g0nx]

Originally posted by heelkick
- I've got to agree with Empty Fist on a lot of his comments here. This sifu needs to assimilate to American culture, not we to his. This IS the United States.

-

although i agree with all his other points this one i disagree. Since this is AMERICA they y don't you take boxing instead of MA. I'm not attacking you but the attitude.

[KWUsCRD]

^ Not only that, no one even knows why he said no in the first place.

[IronFist]

Anyone who has a product or service should be open to answering questions about it. Otherwise it looks suspect.

[KWUsCRD]

So it's settled, he's a terrorist.

[Goldenmane]

Remove the period at the end of the url he posted and try again.

Jeez I'm dense sometimes. :rolleyes:

Thanks mate.

[scotty1]

"This sifu needs to assimilate to American culture, not we to his. This IS the United States."

Well EF wants to learn HIS CHINESE MA, so he needs to bend to the teachers culture/attitude to a certain extent.

In fact, the teacher may not even be teaching full time, may have other interests that provide him with income, and can take who he wants on as a student. In which case, YOU have to satisfy HIS criteria.

All this "This IS the United States" crap is just that.

[Internal Boxer]

"My view on culture is that if live in a foreign country you need to adopt to its culture and customs. If not get back on the boat you came on."

Empty fist cheers for the laugh mate, nearly fell off mi chair. I guess your parents must be native americans, I did not realise the whole of the US population was composed of anglo-saxon origined people WOW how fascinating !!!!

[kungfu cowboy]

That's an old wives tale.

[scotty1]

lol:D

[kungfu cowboy]

It is a frequently abused tactic to scare 8 preschoolers to Greenland.

[David Jamieson]

He didn't like your attitude, don't bother him anymore and go somewhere more likeminded.

simple.

cheers

[Knifefighter]

If an instructor is not open to answer questions, provide information, and give a first hand demonstration, it usually means he is insecure about his skills, both as a teacher and as a fighter.

[kungfu cowboy]

Yeah, this guy sounds like a pantywaist.

[SaMantis]

Kung Lek's hit it right on. But ... if you want to try contacting this guy again, take the old-school route and contact him through your sifu.

He may be quite approachable if the right introduction is made.

[red5angel]

I'd give him a call or go in personally and ask him why he said that. I'm not talking about starting a fight but so far this thread has been all about accusing him of having a cultural issue. there's nothing obivous in the email he sent you that says that is the issue, who knows it could be a myriad of things.
Personally I'd be curious to find out why he responded the way he did, but over all I would say find another school.

[kungfu cowboy]

Reconsidering: I think that the all-around best approach would be to play the role of your favorite hooligan in your favorite kung fu movie who is also facing such a dire dillema in kungfu etiquette, and proceed in a similar vein. Very cool!

[BlueTravesty]

Originally posted by scotty1
"This sifu needs to assimilate to American culture, not we to his. This IS the United States."

Well EF wants to learn HIS CHINESE MA, so he needs to bend to the teachers culture/attitude to a certain extent.

In fact, the teacher may not even be teaching full time, may have other interests that provide him with income, and can take who he wants on as a student. In which case, YOU have to satisfy HIS criteria.

All this "This IS the United States" crap is just that.

so what you're saying is that if EmptyFist went to live in China and refused to accomodate to any of their cultural precepts, he would be perfectly justified and accepted in doing so?

the answer of course, is no. If EmptyFist mastered Shotokan or Judo, then went to China to start a school, and refused to give any leeway as far as culture goes, he would be seen as an ungrateful rude arrogant brash american. If he told students that they weren't real martial arts practitioners, he would be seen as VERY condescending, especially for curious onlookers who perhaps studied Wushu or Taiji. Worse still, there are those who would claim that "that's different." Which it is obviously not.

There is an elderly lady in the apartment next to mine who is a jehovah's witness (luckily, she's one of the really cool tolerant ones, and even keeps the other jehovah's witnesses from coming to our doorstep to harass- er evangelize us.) She told me a story of a couple she knew who went as missionaries to Japan. However, it was against their personal convictions to bow to anyone but their God. As I'm sure you can imagine, their stay did not go so well, and they came back to the States, frustrated beyond belief at the coldness they encountered there.

So, in a nutshell, why shouldn't that respect toward the culture of a country you are living in go both ways? Of course, this "Master" is free to continue as he is, just as Ku Klux Klan members are free to continue in their ignorance. It's just not ethical, and neither party should expect to find much sympathy from the rest of society with whom their entrenched cultural values differ.

[Indestructible]

After reading this sifu's email it is apparent that he is not very proficient in english. Did it occur to you that he may not have fully understood what you were asking about? Even if did understand you,I think I would have to agree that it wasn't exactly the best idea to ask him so many questions about his lineage and such before a proper introduction had taken place.

[Felipe Bido]

I think Indestructible is right. Maybe he didn't understand well, and thought that you were questioning his background/skill.

[IronFist]

Someone send him a link to this thread :D

[David Jamieson]

you could also go take a class like anyone else and find out if you do or do not like the workout.

As for asking questions, that comes with time and generally stuff is revealed to you as you learn. IE: "Now we are doing Yang Taijiquan, I learned this from so and so when I lived here...etc"

what you have done is actually rude and impetuous...in any culture. Even in the rudest of cultures (the French, followed closely by americans :D) what you opened the line with was just rude and a little arrogant and bordering on challenging.

I'm really not surprised he blew you off when I think about it more.

Not sure why you and others here are confused about some simple manners, but maybe you haven't seen much of the world yet and learned how to interact with people a lot yet. lol :D

In other words, you get more flys with honey than you do with vinegar.

Besides, if you know enough to be asking those types of questions then you should be able to get all of them answered in the space of a single class.

I apologize for my rudeness in this post. That is all. :)

cheers

[Empty Fist]

Here is my position on all of this. The questions I asked were in line and no way out of line. They were straight and directly to the point. I provided him some of my background, interests, ask some good questions, and thanked him for his time. That’s not rude in my book. Sorry but I’m not the type of person that puts his teacher on a pedestal. That simple. I’m not going to waste my precious time and hard earned dollars on someone who learned Kung Fu from his father who was a fisherman and did bonsai trees on the side. He offers no details about his background on his website but he provides his email address to answer any questions. Consider this. I’m Chinese, teach traditional Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan, and have a school located at 123 street road, Anywhere USA. My email address GrandMasterofEveryone@aol.com. Email me if you have any questions. You are telling me that you would not have any questions??? As far as a language barrier is concerned, this is America the last time I looked and the language we speak is English. Learn it like you learned your so called friggin kung fu.

[David Jamieson]

Well EF, if you insist on keeping that position, people will insist on not teaching you anything.

really.

cheers

[Indestructible]

Americans speak AMERICAN!
Duh.....America was founded by Americans, for Americans!
Oh, wait... Arn't we a country of immigrants? Last time I checked we didn't have a national language.

Besides, only the English speak ENGLISH. Canadians, what do they speak? Cannuckish?

[scotty1]

so what you're saying is that if EmptyFist went to live in China and refused to accomodate to any of their cultural precepts, he would be perfectly justified and accepted in doing so?

No that's not what I'm saying.

I'm not talking about citizenship. Presumably this Sifu lives within the law and genereally acceptable behaviour.

How the he!l did we get from him turning down a student to "refused to accomodate to any of their cultural precepts", which you're saying is an analogous situation?

Within the law the Sifu is free to run his school/business in any way he wants to. Don't like it, don't train there. Maybe he's seeing how much you want it?

[bob10]

"They acquired their training in environments where McKwoons were rare, and the title Master actually meant something, and called for respect. "

He seems happy enough to have Siegfried and Roy pcitured on his site though. From his response to what seemed reasonable enough questions asked in a polite way he seems like a *****.
Then again, judging from the history section on the site, maybe he has a chip on shoulder regarding westerners, or at least that is what he is "selling".

[anton]

Originally posted by bob10
"They acquired their training in environments where McKwoons were rare, and the title Master actually meant something, and called for respect. "

He seems happy enough to have Siegfried and Roy pcitured on his site though. From his response to what seemed reasonable enough questions asked in a polite way he seems like a *****.
Then again, judging from the history section on the site, maybe he has a chip on shoulder regarding westerners, or at least that is what he is "selling".

I didn't look at the website, so I'm just giving him the benefit of the doubt. Generally I would agree with Kung Lek on this issue.

[Empty Fist]

Within the law the Sifu is free to run his school/business in any way he wants to. Don't like it, don't train there. Maybe he's seeing how much you want it?

I agree with you that he has a right to run his business as he wants to but I'm not going to jump through hoops to show my interest. The questions I asked were enough to show my interest. My questions were directed in a way to see if the school was a McDojo school or not.

[Empty Fist]

Well EF, if you insist on keeping that position, people will insist on not teaching you anything.

I never had a problem with any of my prior teachers. That pretty much sums it up.

[Pork Chop]

hosted possibly the worst tournament ever

changed the sparring rules in between almost every single match

not only didn't admonish the wannabe thugs from the local wing chun school for trying to go full contact; but actually encouraged it by changing the rules to accomodate for them


There are much better schools in and around Philly than this one

[Brad]

While getting an email with 18 questions from a guy you don't know can be somewhat annoying, it's no reason to say he isn't a martial artist and turn him down in that way. Could've just said "sorry, we're not accepting new students right now" or something along those lines. If it's a language barrier problem, then he needs someone more fluent in English to deal with school emails. Either way, EF doesn't want to train there, and he clearly doesn't want EF training there either(doesn't make him a fraud though :confused: ). So case closed :p

[IronFist]

Originally posted by BMore Banga
hosted possibly the worst tournament ever

changed the sparring rules in between almost every single match

not only didn't admonish the wannabe thugs from the local wing chun school for trying to go full contact; but actually encouraged it by changing the rules to accomodate for them


There are much better schools in and around Philly than this one

^ Are you talking about the school EF was asking about?

****! :eek:

Anyway, as for the email reply, wtf? When I'm selling something on eBay, every once in a while I get an email from someone with a ton of questions... and I answer all of them because I want to help them understand what I'm selling. It's part of being polite and good customer service.

Then again, his answer is pretty suspect. Maybe he's pulling an Ashida Kim?

[IronFist]

Someone there knows how to let a car drive over them, see?

http://www.wtakung-fu.com/pages/car_jpg.htm

edit - my bad, looks more like a minivan. I hope he has faith in those little wooden ramps.

[rubthebuddha]

impressive -- a minivan on his tummy. now, when he gets in a fight with a dodge caravan, he'll be prepared.

[bad dubbing]

"your aerostar-style is no match for my odysssey-style."

[/bad dubbing]

one more question -- is it appropriate to go to the ground against an automobile, or is it best to stay on your feet and strike/throw them? :confused:

[Pork Chop]

IF
yup
I could go into specific detail but then I wasn't so "civil" in my reaction to it at the time either.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by BMore Banga
not only didn't admonish the wannabe thugs from the local wing chun school for trying to go full contact; but actually encouraged it by changing the rules to accomodate for them


I hate that :mad:

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Hmm, anyone seen the following 2 Pages on the Website:

http://www.wtakung-fu.com/WTASINF.htm

http://www.wtakung-fu.com/WTAHIS.htm

http://www.wtakung-fu.com/WTACS.htm

Seems to me pretty clear what his Tai Chi consists of and what he expects of his students.

[David Jamieson]

tjm, that's 3 pages, but who's counting :D hee hee.

seriously, by all appearances the guy is hardly what one could call a "fraud".

From the info available at his site, his classes seem as genuine and authentic as any genuine and authentic kungfu classes I've seen (and I've seen a few).

cheers

[Shaolindynasty]

He blew you off, just look somewhere else. I've seen alot of people with maybe a small amount of skill try to blow themselves up with "Chin wu/ Jing wu" history. If he is Jing wu he would be listed with the jing wu association. All the authentic jing wu people I've ever emailed and asked questions have been friendly. Jing wu is progressive and certainly not "old school". He may not be a complete fruad but he probally isn't an "old school master" either. Probally a guy with alittle know how trying to make a buck.

As for the culture thing. I don't think he misunderstood. He has allot of white students pictured I'm sure he is used to dealing with us by now.

Try something else, I would

[rogue]

Aren't white tigers the animals that usually die in the wild because of their coloring, bad eye sight and the fact that they're freaks?:confused: Great animal to name an art after.:p

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm..... (http://www.butterfacewear.com)

[Fu-Pau]

Originally posted by Empty Fist


Why not???? If you don’t want to answer these types of questions then don’t open a school to the public.

Martial arts schools are not public convenience stores... clearly he neither needs you as a student, nor wants you as a student. Whatever his reasons are, they are his own and as principal of his school he is entitled to them.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by rogue
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm..... (http://www.butterfacewear.com)

Ok, not only is that completely related to what we're talking about :D, but I'm rofl'ing at the fact that they made a store devoted entirely to "butterface" clothing. wtf? :D

[bob10]

"Martial arts schools are not public convenience stores"

Then he shouldn't advertise like one. If he wants to be "profound and mysterious" he maybe shouldn't have a big website and do kids' gradings.

[David Jamieson]

The ching wu athletic association has had literally thousands upon thousands of students enter over the years and learn cma.

I am not certain there is one directory that covers all students who have studied under the name Ching Wu, jing wu. jing mo et al.

There are branches that call themselves jing mo/ching wu all over the world now. Quite a lot of them don't have the same curriculum.

For instance, the Jing Mo in Cali does not teach the same style as the Jing Mo here in Toronto.

Both are totally legit Kungfu schools though.

I really think he got blown off for his impetuos attitude.

Never underestimate and always approach with courtesy. In anything, this will get you ****her than demanding. After all, you are going to him. For his part he will offer and teach only what he offers and teaches. If this isn't suitable to you, then why approach in such a manner?

cheers

[Pork Chop]

From what I've seen first hand, this school represents all that is unholy in kung fu.

Like I said, there are better places in and around Philly.

Drop me an IM or an email with location & what you're interested in and I'll see if my friend in the Philly scene can help you out.

[bamboo_ leaf]

(Simple. Irregardless of whatever is meant by "culture" here you have a right to know exactly what you are paying for, and nobody should mind a question (or twenty) as long as it is directed along those lines.Buyer beware.)

I would say no, you don’t have a right to know, you have a right to ask but nothing is implicit about you receiving an answer. Weather the guy was any good or not he basically said this school is not for you look somewhere else.

In many stores they have signs (We reserve the right to refuse service to any one)

Or the good old at will clause in many contracts (your employment here can be terminated at any time with out reason, you can quite at any time without reason)


seems he has assimilated quite well ;)

[Shaolindynasty]

He offeres no info on which Jing Wu/Chin woo branch he studied at. Most all legit Jing wu schools offere that info. He only info he offered is what you could see on Fists of fury or fist of legend which he referenced.

I ran classes for awhile, it does get annoying when people "interview" you to become "your student". Yet I never responded like this guy.

I don't think "respect and courtesy" was the case here. Anybody I've ever talked to that was legit had no problem answering questions. As a matter of fact allot of them liked talking about their teachers, where they learned etc.

I'm not saying that he doesn't know any kungfu, just saying there are allot better places to learn. If he gets mad about simple questions how will you learn?

Any teacher can refuse to teach you, that's true. Yet given the way the site makes the school appear it's strange that he would turn ANYBODY down, especially for somthing as simple as asking a question.

Strange

[BlueTravesty]

QUOTE]Originally posted by scotty1


No that's not what I'm saying.

I'm not talking about citizenship. Presumably this Sifu lives within the law and genereally acceptable behaviour.

How the he!l did we get from him turning down a student to "refused to accomodate to any of their cultural precepts", which you're saying is an analogous situation?

Within the law the Sifu is free to run his school/business in any way he wants to. Don't like it, don't train there. Maybe he's seeing how much you want it? [/QUOTE]

Well, perhaps I misunderstood the intent behind your original post, and if this is the case, I apologize for the misunderstanding. My original understanding is that you were of the opinion that somehow EmptyFist was wrong for asking the questions he asked (granted, he did come off as a BIT overbearing, but I think KungLek's use of the word "arrogant" is something of an exaggeration in this situation.) And wrong again for saying that this Sifu should assimilate somewhat to the culture of the country he is currently living in. And this country is not typically closed-door when it comes to teaching. So again, if this was not what you meant at all then I respectfully retract my statement and apologize, while respectfully pointing out that you brought culture and the assimilation thereof into the picture before I did.

Of course EF should bend a bit to the Sifu's culture. We all do when we take martial arts, that's why we respect the one who is TEACHING US as well as other instructors. However, as EmptyFist is not studying Kung-Fu yet there is no reason to treat "Master Jeon" as a Sifu. These points are pretty moot though. Clearly this sifu has no interest in teaching him or he would have at least said "I would rather see you in person so that we may discuss these matters more freely."

Be that as it may however, I like to think of it like this. If I'm walking around downtown sometime and I ask someone what time it is and he says "You not need know time. Looking for someone else." My first reaction won't be "Well, I guess he's free to do as he pleases!" it will be "What a jerk!"
And it will be my perogative to vent about it, if I am so inclined.;)

On the other hand, in keeping with this analogy, I wouldn't have started in on the guy saying "Hello, I studied watchmaking for a few years and am currently a member of The Springs and Gears Society of Watchmaking. Here are my credentials. Could you tell me what time it is?"

So I'm not saying that EmptyFist wasn't PARTIALLY wrong too, just that the Sifu's reply was more out of line than EmptyFist's questioning.