Anyone ever tried this with weights?

[Viper555]

You know how if you can't do pullups you start out doing negatives(jumping up and lowering yourself as slowly as possible)until you can do one and then you go from there? Would this work with weights? Lets say you want to be able to bench 225 and you cant do it once but you cant lower it slowly(and controlled). If you did sets of that doing negatives would you reach your goal quicker than say benching 210 a few times?

[Toby]

Yeah, I do that sometimes. AFAIK, it works well. Hopefully Ford or Iron will have some scientific evidence as to why. Main benefit for me is I become used to the heavier weight and less scared of handling it. Only thing is, it's a PITA with things like bench and squat because you have to rack the weight and then unload and get it back up. Of course, if you've got training partners it's easy. You might also look into using chains or bands, Westside-style.

[blooming lotus]

I think I'd be more inclined to work my top set weight and increase my 1 max lift...sounds silly to me it's different muscles and even on the lower you're gonna reach the same point of tension within the same muscle you couldn't use the first time.....do not I repeat do not try this without a spotter!!!

[Viper555]

So does it seem to work you up to that weight quicker then doing power lifts? Here lately my max has increased very slowly and I think I may have plateaued(sp?)which sucks. I'm willing to give almost anything a shot to get my max up soon.

edit:The reason I thought about it is because I think that if you just lower the weight then eventually it will take less energy to do just that giving you more energy to lift it up with. Also, would it be a good idea to try and push it up as far as you can or push against as hard as you can at the bottom of the lift?

[Ford Prefect]

It does work and it works well, but like anything else it will only work for a short amount of time. I think it's especially good for breaking through plateau's. It works for two reasons:

1) Increase muscle tension. The heavier the weight; the greater the tension. Your muscles only know tension. They don't care about whether you're using olympic weights, kettlebells, bodyweight, etc.

2) Psychological: you become comfortable handling that heavy of weight, so when you actually go for a full rep, it doesn't "feel" heavy. This is one of the reasons I like partials like 1/4 squats and pin presses.

If you don't have a partner to help you with this, you can do them in a power rack or buy "weight releasers". They hang from the bar and when they touch the ground the come off, so that extra weight is deloaded. Chains and bands are also used similarly.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
It does work and it works well, but like anything else it will only work for a short amount of time. I think it's especially good for breaking through plateau's. It works for two reasons:


Another reason that this type of training is even possible is that your muscles are able to handle a heavier load statically and eccentrically than they are concentrically. This is kind of nature's safety system to make sure you never pick up something and then not be able to hold it. If it was the other way around, then Ug the caveman may have picked up a big rock over his head with ease, but then not be able to hold it there and it would crash down on his head. I think in order of weakest to strongest, it goes like this:

concetric
static
eccentric


This is one of the reasons I like partials like 1/4 squats and pin presses.

I don't think I could ever do 1/4 squats. After all the crap I give people for not doing full range squats :D People would be like "haha, look at that hypocrite."


If you don't have a partner to help you with this, you can do them in a power rack or buy "weight releasers". They hang from the bar and when they touch the ground the come off, so that extra weight is deloaded.

It sure would suck if you didn't have a spotter and they didn't come off and you got stuck at the bottom. Or if only one of them came off and the bar got lopsided. Uh-oh.


Chains and bands are also used similarly.

I thought chains and bands were used so that the higher you pushed the bar, the more resistance you'd have.

[IronFist]

btw, Viper555, this was a good question. I can tell you were thinking :)

[abobo]

In general, any way of training that focuses on proper form and creates a lot of tension will make you stronger. Most kinds of eccentric or 'negative' training meet that description, so yes it can work.

There are some drawbacks though. There is a greater amount of microtrauma when you emphasize eccentrics. If you train this way, you will need a lot more recovery time.

Also, while some studies show subjects getting stronger on an eccentrics based program vs concentric and isometric contractions, there have been studies with the conclusion that the difference is almost negligible.

Unfortunately I can't remember the names of those particular studies so you'll have to take my word for it.

There was a puzzles & parodoxes article by Mel Siff suggesting that athletes might be able to adapt to the greater stress after a while.

But if you look at most strong athletes, this type of training isn't the most prominent over the long term.

That said, you can look up Christian Thibaudeau's article called Accentuated Eccentric Training for more info on the benefits.

[abobo]

You might also look into using chains or bands, Westside-style.

I wouldn't bother with that stuff yet. Viper, you said on another thread that you've only been lifting for about a year. At this point there's nothing wrong with keeping things simple.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by abobo


I wouldn't bother with that stuff yet. Viper, you said on another thread that you've only been lifting for about a year. At this point there's nothing wrong with keeping things simple.

I agree.

[blooming lotus]

exactly...I think the reason people remain plataued is lack of experiential motivation...if you really want to continue improving your game...as soon as you hit it or notice it, it's become to easy and it's exactly then that you need to dig deeper as a new every sesh level to shoot for....not to demoralise here and no ego about it, but I guess that's why I'm doing crazy sets and others are stuck on 30..if you wanna get better, the load gets larger...acccept it and GO TRAIN THAT WEIGHT!!!


( or at least add some pounds to your max..for freaks sake:rolleyes: )


:cool: ;)

[Viper555]

Well ive been doing strength and power lifting mainly and i've only went up 20 pounds with my max for the last 7-8 months. The reason I thought of trying something different is that you can't always just increase the load with the same type of training. Sometimes you've got to switch it up so your body doesn't get set to one type of training. Anoter reason I thought of it is that every time I go for these maxes I think I might be siking(how do you speel that?)myself out. Whenever I pick it up it feels really heavy yet I can lower it slowly while maintaing proper form and push it about 1/3 of the way up. I think my mind is just saying that its too much because im not used to weight that heavy so I thought that if I worked with it some I would get used to it.

[Ford Prefect]

Iron,

You are right about chains and bands, but the concept is the same. They are used to strengthen different areas of strength curve. Doing negatives will do this also. While it is not exactly the same as chains/bands, the principle behind it is very similar.

As for weight releasers, it's almost impossible for them not to release by their design. If I ever get around to getting a digital camera, I'll take pictures of them in action for you. The pain is that you have to remount them every rep. That's why I basically stick to using chains and bands now. (Mostly bands since the chains are a biotch to carry into the gym... 80 lbs!)

[IronFist]

How do you attach the bands to the floor?

[Ford Prefect]

I stack 80lbs and 40 lbs db's so they form a "+" and attach it to that for benching, and since the tension is higher on the squat I use 110 lbs and 80 lbs db's. Don't do that much squatting with bands because of the way they have to be attached to a rack or the floor. If you don't have a mono-lift, then you'll be tugged back pretty hard whenever you unrack the bar. This is one of the only reasons I drag the 80+lbs worth of chains into the gym from time to time.