grappling/vale tudo/nhb training

[djh]

Just curious...

Has anyone else here spent a little time training in a grappling/nhb style aswell as their traditional CMA?

What were your conclusions on the matter? Valuable to know and useful in rounding out your ability as a fighter or waste of time?

I trained Chow Gar for 5 years (loved it), travelled to a place where there was no southern mantis for a year and did vale tudo instead (always been interested to have a go). Now I'm living in London so am back into the Chow Gar (loving it).

I know there have been a million threads about who's tougher etc etc and this is not the point of this post. I am committed to the SPM and will not be changing, but I must say that time with the vale tudo guys was a real eye opener.

That should be enough to get it going... any experiences/reflections? Many traditional MA people dismiss the cross-training with a freestyle art out of hand but I believe there is a lot to be learnt in terms of techniques, fight psychology and application.

[DeathTouch]

It sounds as if you know the answer to your own question, so why seek advice here?

[djh]

I'm not seeking advice I'm seeking discussion.

Why be defensive? This is part of what I'm talking about...

[DeathTouch]

djh, im sorry u are so emotionally disturbed as to call me defensive i just simply stated that you answered your own question in your original post that is all. LOL i dont know why I would get defensive when this forum is not mine for me to defend i do not own and make no profit from posting here lol just read your original post and you will see how contradictive you sound,

As a matter of fact if i were you i would reread the post and then rewrite it. I think that sounds like a great idea dont you

[djh]

'emotionally disturbed'... that's helpful

How could I finally answer my own question when there is no definitive answer? I asked for discussion and the experiences of others. I consider that to be clear in my original post (even after re-reading as you suggested).

Thanks for ruining what could have been an interesting exchange (although from your profile I see you're not interested in that '...none of that modern bull'... I see you've already made up your mind and are ready to discount all other views).

Nice one :mad:

[Ralphie]

I do vale tudo. It's very valuable. I think the next revolution for CMA is to incorporate a sport around it, weather it's san shou having a broader base or another form that doesn't use large gloves. Vale tudo allows you to test your skills, and appreciate other martial artists. It also allowed me to appreciate CMA much more, and that the concepts and principles that CMA teach are practical and real.

[Fu-Pow]

Most of my training is centered around NOT going to the ground. If I did then it might be useful to know a FEW grappling ground techniques.

The problem I see with a lot of SPORT martial arts is that they are not very realistic.

For example

-Most fights last a very short time, 3 seconds tops

-The person who usually gets in the first good shot wins

-Many fights involve mutliple people, not a one on one situation

-Many of the most effective moves ie knees, elbows, groin shots, kicks to the knee, joint locks, etc are not allowed.

Not to say there isn't some value in training the sporting aspects of martial arts. For example:

-Real time reaction training

-Distance

-Footwork

-Learning to take a hit safely

Furthermore, sporting arts that involve a lot of pounding full contact strikes to the head and face are kind of antithetical to martial arts. MA training is about not getting hit and hitting your opponent. Again, the time that a real fight takes is very fast, not 3-10 rounds. You don't even have time to take a lot of hits in a real fight. Its that first good shot that is probably going to decide the fight.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
Most of my training is centered around NOT going to the ground. If I did then it might be useful to know a FEW grappling ground techniques.

it doesn't have to be centered around the ground game. Mine is not either. However, once there, you need to know how to get around. That's an asset regardless of what you are training for, because you CAN be taken down. IMO, all MA should know at least the basics, regardless of your style or "what your training is centered around"

The problem I see with a lot of SPORT martial arts is that they are not very realistic.

:rolleyes:

For example

-Most fights last a very short time, 3 seconds tops

-The person who usually gets in the first good shot wins

-Many fights involve mutliple people, not a one on one situation

-Many of the most effective moves ie knees, elbows, groin shots, kicks to the knee, joint locks, etc are not allowed.

not only are those assumptions, but some of them are just wrong. One of them is somewhat correct.

- I've seen and been in fights that go over three seconds. Most of the ones I've seen last longer than that. that's almost as bad as the "all fights go to the ground" generalization...

- the person who gets the first shot does not usually win - unless the one he shot on has no ground game.

- assuming that we want to go to the ground is another bad assumption. I don't want to take someone to the ground in a multiple attacker scenario, but am well prepared to efficiently get up, should I be taken there.

- the techniques you listed are very much allowed, except for groin kicks.

Not to say there isn't some value in training the sporting aspects of martial arts. For example:

-Real time reaction training

-Distance

-Footwork

-Learning to take a hit safely

agreed.

Furthermore, sporting arts that involve a lot of pounding full contact strikes to the head and face are kind of antithetical to martial arts. MA training is about not getting hit and hitting your opponent. Again, the time that a real fight takes is very fast, not 3-10 rounds. You don't even have time to take a lot of hits in a real fight. Its that first good shot that is probably going to decide the fight.

IMO, and strictly IMO as oppinions on this vary, MA training IS about fighting. ethics, philosophy, etc. I get at church, school, etc. I don't need MA to try and reinforce it. The only exceptions I make for that are arts like aikido which are completely based on such principles.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by djh
Just curious...

Has anyone else here spent a little time training in a grappling/nhb style aswell as their traditional CMA?

I was training muay thai before doing four years of longfist. I now am back training in muay thai and also grappling.

What were your conclusions on the matter? Valuable to know and useful in rounding out your ability as a fighter or waste of time?

I learned alot of useful things in CMA, but my preference is for MT and judo. I train bjj also, but prefer the formers.

[Fu-Pow]

- the person who gets the first shot does not usually win - unless the one he shot on has no ground game.

FP: This is simply not true. In the ring it is different. On the street whoever lands a good shot, especially a good head shot usually wins. I'm not talking about a jab, I'm talking about something like a strong right hand cross followed by a succession of follow up techniques. That first strike stuns the opponent and sets up the following strikes. I'm not talking about karate "one hit, one kill" theory. I'm talking about landing a strong shot, and then quickly following it up. This aspect of the fight doesn't take more than 3-5 seconds tops. Why am I going **** around worrying about going to the ground when I can focus my training on landing that first shot and taking my opponent out fast?

[Ralphie]

F-P
I agree with you to to some extent. However, my argument isn't the same as yours. I don't think you have to seperate sport from an overall martial art. The sport is just going to allow you to practice your fighting skills on a consistant basis with unfamiliar opponents, and force you to adapt to different situations. BTW, this has nothing to do with going to the ground or ground fighting. I do think it's a good thing to know, but honestly don't care if someone else does or not.

[Fu-Pow]

I don't think you have to seperate sport from an overall martial art. The sport is just going to allow you to practice your fighting skills on a consistant basis with unfamiliar opponents, and force you to adapt to different situations.

FP: I'd disagree with you there to some extent because they are two different skillsets. I believe that "sport" should be separated from "combat" training which should be separated from "form" training and theory. They are all different and valuable components of MA training but they are "different" components.

The confusion comes when people mix up "sport" training ,"combat" training and "form/theory" training. Training for a sport trains you to go from point A--->B---->C within the confines of rules X, Y, Z. A real fight is more like A------>C without any rules. Its a different mindset and different skillset....that's my point.

In my experience ground fighting knowledge is not as valuable in terms of real "combat" where as in a sports type arena like nhb or what have you it is more valuable.

Depends on where you want to expend your effort.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
- the person who gets the first shot does not usually win - unless the one he shot on has no ground game.

FP: This is simply not true. In the ring it is different. On the street whoever lands a good shot, especially a good head shot usually wins. I'm not talking about a jab, I'm talking about something like a strong right hand cross followed by a succession of follow up techniques. That first strike stuns the opponent and sets up the following strikes. I'm not talking about karate "one hit, one kill" theory. I'm talking about landing a strong shot, and then quickly following it up. This aspect of the fight doesn't take more than 3-5 seconds tops. Why am I going **** around worrying about going to the ground when I can focus my training on landing that first shot and taking my opponent out fast?

I see what you mean now.... In grappling, going for a takedown is called a shot. when you said shot, I wasn't thinking about a strike, as I would've called it a strike. you made references to other sport fighting instances, and I was thinking that that statement was one also.

[phoenix-eye]

I've done a wee bit grappling on the side - some lessons/rolling in no-gi grappling class and picking up stuff from videos before more informal rolling with like minded CMA classmates. I've really enjoyed it.

As for it's benefits - it's an area where I really only want to develop basic survival skills. Primarily escapes from positions and a few, easily workable submissions. There's no way - unless I train for many years - that I'm gonna be able to do anything fancy on the street while the beer soaked hooligan is trying to make me eat my teeth. That's where the more competition oriented stuff leaves me cold. However, there's a pretty good chance that in the heat of a streetfight I might miss my strike and he intentionally/unintentionally "shoots" and gets a takedown. I need to know how to get out and back to my feet asap.

If he gives me a good opening for some sort of clean kimura, keylock, straight armlock or a choke (by far the best) then I'll go for it. But not much else. He's not going to tap when he's all raged up and I'd better be prepared to pop something and make him cry.

That's all I want to know. Hopefully this small amount would allow me to get back to my feet and use my Hung Gar to take him out.

Hopefully........

Cheers
PE

[Fu-Pow]

Agree with you phoenix eye. That's about the amount of grappling that I would like to study. Just enough that I can get up and then pummel the guy or send him to the ground on his head.

[djh]

I just wanted to get the basics down too... and I found the basics of a ground game were relatively easy to pick up (in comparison to the time and effort to develop a sound stand-up) and very useful if an altercation goes that way.

Good bridge and adapting your trained stand-up techniques will certainly help if you find yourself on the ground, but there really is no substitute to specific training in this area if you're against a ground specialist... shoots are hard to defend or stop unless you're used to doing this, and when on the ground it's hard to get clean strong hits off if someone is pinning you down, tying you up and working for a lock/choke. Don't get me wrong- I'm all for CMA but I just think the modern ground styles can't just be ignored because you plan to stay on your feet.

PLUS they're fun to train. I found there to be a real comraderie among guys in the same gym and with other schools. Would you see friendly match ups between CMA schools on weekends so younger guys get some experience with handling pressure against an unknown opponent? There's little of this 'my style rules/yours sucks' business going on too... guys just train and are willing to help anyone else who's prepared to graft.

I just read this post and I sound like a convert... but I'm not. It was cool to do a bit of it but I found it to be hollow in comparison to Chow Gar... my perspective was externalised (I gauged my progress by how many guys I had choked that night) which is fine for a young fella... but I prefer the internal challenge CMA gives- a much worthier lifetime pursuit and something I believe will eventually give a better result across the board if trained long and hard enough (I am yet to see anything compared to the power and skill of my Chow Gar Sifu in Australia).

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
Training for a sport trains you to go from point A--->B---->C within the confines of rules X, Y, Z. A real fight is more like A------>C without any rules. Its a different mindset and different skillset....that's my point.

I disagree with that. sport fighters aren't conditioned to think "okay, we start by kkicking, then go to punching range, then go to the ground..." They are taught to deal with whatever is thrown and whenever it happens. That's why people began cross training. initially, stikers weren't prepared to grapple. Then grapplers weren't prepared to strike. Now, they do it all, so that they may be prepared for it all. There is no set pattern.

In my experience ground fighting knowledge is not as valuable in terms of real "combat" where as in a sports type arena like nhb or what have you it is more valuable.

I've had different experience. Watch two untrained fighters. they get sloppy, flail, stumble into eachother and fall. grappling training is very beneficial there. also, there are those who will try to tacke you. Once again, grappling is beneficial in that situation. I see both of those quite a bit.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by djh


PLUS they're fun to train. I found there to be a real comraderie among guys in the same gym and with other schools. Would you see friendly match ups between CMA schools on weekends so younger guys get some experience with handling pressure against an unknown opponent? There's little of this 'my style rules/yours sucks' business going on too... guys just train and are willing to help anyone else who's prepared to graft.

definitely.

I just read this post and I sound like a convert... but I'm not. It was cool to do a bit of it but I found it to be hollow in comparison to Chow Gar... my perspective was externalised (I gauged my progress by how many guys I had choked that night) which is fine for a young fella... but I prefer the internal challenge CMA gives-

sensitivity, yielding, etc are also used in bjj, judo and muay thai - I think a lot of people fail to realize that. Not saying that you do, just a general comment.

a much worthier lifetime pursuit and something I believe will eventually give a better result across the board if trained long and hard enough (I am yet to see anything compared to the power and skill of my Chow Gar Sifu in Australia).

Out of curiosity, what's the better result?

[djh]

Better result in terms of bad ass fighting ability or in terms of all round development?

I've heard it said before and I would agree that your average guy with a year or so of grappling/nhb stuff would handle the average guy with a year of traditional MA... but I also think that over time this would reverse- especially if the traditional MA guy had done some nhb style training and wasn't completely lost against a shoot or on the floor.

I found that starting from the ground I was worked over by most of the guys but if it began from standing I was able to control the fight better and if it did go to ground I was controlling the circumstances of this shift better i.e I was the one shooting them when they were off balance or forcing them to shoot at a bad time because the stand up wasn't going their way- therefore I was able to take a stronger position after the flurry when both people hit the ground. I think good stand up is crucial in both combat/sport and takes longer to develop... so for me (and others may disagree) I will stick to the CMA as my focus and keep up the grappling on the side.

[djh]

RE your 'sensitivity, yielding' point... definately found that to be the case. There is a depth there if you want to commit to it- I am oversimplifying to make a point.

It took me months to learn to relax in the grappling- I was just trying to bridge the whole time and getting worn out holding some guys weight (at which point they generally finish it). Very cool style and I can see why it appeals... I just scratched the surface really... but enough for me to see that I want to principally commit my finite training time to developing Chow Gar.

Sevenstar: How do you spread your training week between all those styles?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by djh
Better result in terms of bad ass fighting ability or in terms of all round development?

either. you didn't specify anything when you made the comment.

I've heard it said before and I would agree that your average guy with a year or so of grappling/nhb stuff would handle the average guy with a year of traditional MA... but I also think that over time this would reverse- especially if the traditional MA guy had done some nhb style training and wasn't completely lost against a shoot or on the floor.

I hear that alot - I agree with the first part. As for the second, I don't hink it would revers, however, I do believe that it would even up more.

I think good stand up is crucial in both combat/sport and takes longer to develop...

I agree, but the revers is true for me - stand up has always been like second nature to me, and I pick up on it quickly. A good ground game is taking me way longer to develop.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by djh

Sevenstar: How do you spread your training week between all those styles?

by training almost every day. there's a bjj class every day of the week, so I have plenty of opportunity to go. I have judo twice a week and muay thai twice a week.

judo - tues/thurs

MT - mon/wed

bjj - daily. I usually only go 3-4 times a week though.

It works out because all of the classes are at the same club. I do train judo at two different clubs, however. I'm at one on thurs, and on tues, I'm at the club where I train mt and bjj. both clubs offer judo twice a week, but this is the way that it works best for me.

[djh]

bjj, mt and judo are a good mix and complement well. I'm doing Southern Mantis and something like vale tudo is very different... not saying they don't mix, just that if I was to split my training week between the two evenly then I don't think I would be developing properly in either.

I train 4 days a week Chow Gar and currently do some grappling when I get the chance (not much over the last 2 months). Our Chow Gar grandmaster is visiting soon so I'm trying to focus on it but I'll do some more regular grappling soon.

Oh yeah- and my comment about the superiority of the fighter reversing... it seems that nhb fighters peak earlier in life whereas good kf practitioners continue to develop skills and shock power and don't peak till mid 40's or later (this is all just conjecture however and I'm sure there is nothing like a hard and fast rule).

Anyway, good luck with your training :)