the characterisitcs of Bak Mei

[Falcor]

So all this talk on this forum regarding WHite Eyebrow has been interesting but not very informative about the art itself. COuld someone explain or describe to someone who does not know much about this art some more details about Bak Mei? What are its fighting strategies/tactics? How is the training typically conducted? What are its internal works like? What are its key principles? And so on. I'm not really interested in the lineages, but just in the nuts and bolts of the art itself. Thanks.

[Go Jun Long]

I have begun a new forum/group at: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/futshanbakmeipai/

The brief history topic has good information in it. Good luck in your studies.

[Pakmei]

Falcor,

Pak Mei has some similarities in stances and body shape to Chow Gar Tong Long (Chow Family [Southern] Preying Mantis).

However, Pak Mei is considered a soft and hard system, this means that the hands are soft until the moment upon impact.

The training, varies from school to school, though the way that I have been taught (as well as the way, that I teach) is quite traditional, with lots of emphasis made on Ha Ma (Stance and footwork) and Tun Tao Fao Chum (Breathing) and consitional the arms, body and legs, and not tomention basics, etc.

Without the fore mentioned, being trained properly, the Pak Mei stylist would not be able to use the Gang Jik Ging (Scared Power).

The style or forms are performed fast and powerfully, as if the Pak Mei stylist is actually in a fight. This helps to train the students mind, co-ordination, reflex, foundation, etc.

On the surface the style looks very basic, and quite external to the untrained eye. However anyone that practises the Hakka arts for example Loong Ying, Chow Gar Tong Long and Pak Mei, will be able to appreciate the soft - hard qualities that is used extensively thorughout the style, techniques, priinciples, etc

Hope that answers some of your questions about the Pak Mei style.

[EarthDragon]

Thank you falcor,
I have been interested in bak mei for a little while now but cant seem to find anyone that is very skilled in this art on the forum.

I did start a thread on the main forum board but it soon decayed into a fighting match between the children that swarm that board.

I am honestly interested in learning about bak mei and would hope I could find it on the southern board who could help me.

I would be very interested in someone with over 10 years in the stlye to ask questions reguarding tecniques in attcking and defense and how it differes from 8 step mantis.

Please come forward with some knowledgeable insight on this topic. Thank you ED

[Pakmei]

Hi Earth Dragon,

What in particular do you want to knwo about Pak Mei?

I been training in Pak Me for 13years, under my Sifu in London UK.

I'll be very happy to give you si=ome information and advice on the style.

PM or leave a message and I'll come back to you.

Regards

[EarthDragon]

Excellent Pak Mei.............
I finally found someone who could answer some questions. I have been looking on these boards for 3 weeks now but have only found a little.

1. What are the characteristics of atack and defense as far as trapping, timing, redirecting and so forth.
2. What kind of footwork?
3. What principles does it rely on to defend?
4. are actions instinctive rather than rehershed, ie. efficiencey,
natural, soft, countering or listening.
5. Do you utilize internal aspects for defense.
6.What stlyes have influenced other than wing chun.
7. is it a complete system i.e. internal, medicinal, tai chi, qigong religion?

Thank you in advance for answering these questions. I have only heard of this style while living in SF chinatown where I saw an old flyer for a seminar that had just passed before I got there from Zhong Lou, fishmonger's son and was quite impressed. I am a shrfu in ba bu tang lang for14 years and was drawn to it by the fierce fighting described in the flyer but dont know much else about it other than that, so i would love to know a little. You r help is deeply appreciated. sincerly ED

[TAO YIN]

Earth Dragon,

Here are some web forum links you might be interested in.


http://msn.groups.com/BaiMeiQuan/general.msnw

That is the Bai Mei discussion group at msn, lots of info there.


http://www.forumco.com/hungkuennet/default.asp

That is known as the Southern Fist Forum. There is lots of Bak Mei discussion there as well.

Basically, Generally speaking, to answer your questions...

Bak Mei is a complete system of Kung Fu which includes single man forms, two man hand forms, weapons forms, two man weapon forms, hakka and shaolin conditioning, chi gung, dit dar medicine and tcm, religion, etc. It has it all. In Bak Mei, basically speaking, your attack or your redirectied/deflective attack, is your defense. Bak Mei encompasses different usages of footwork such as half stepping, triangle stepping, full stepping, circle stepping, and etc. Internal and External aspects are used in a simultaneous yin/yang fashion. The idea being, that for total body effeciency to occur, you can't have one without the other. Yin/Yang Internal/External must work together. Both hands work together as one. While one hand is deflecting and (rubbing) the bridge, the other is atacking. The idea is "lin wan da sau" both hands continuously attacking. Actions are meant to be instinctive. Sticky hands, rubbing hands, and other hand exercises are the basis for attack. Bak Mei is all about sensitivity via sticking, rubbing, listening, and all of that.

The basic idea of attack is to make the bridge, use one of the 8 methods, and destroy the opponent, all in one motion.

I know this is a totally basic and rambling post as I'm on break at work, but I just wanted to get across to you at least a few of the foundational ideas of Bak Mei. As it is a complete system like 8 step mantis is, it would take hundreds of pages to discuss it all.....hope this sheds a little bit of light though.

Check out those websites, although much of the discussions turn into how many people clc defeated, and who has the most original style, there is heaps of useful info.

Hope I was of some help.

Take care,

TAO

[TIger Hand]

Bak Mei is an excellent system but I don't think it has it all.

It doesn't have groundfighting/grappling like BJJ, but then again which KF style does.

Nor does it have a lot of chin-na. It has some but not to the level of jiu-jitsu or fukien white crane.

On the other hand bak mei has what they call "scared power" which is something that you don't really see in almost any other style, chinese, japanese, korean...etc.

And the fascinating thing about the way a bak mei stylist learns to generate power, other than it's uniqueness, is that it can be applied to other techniqes from other styles; within certain limits of course.

[TAO YIN]

Tiger Hand,

Only on the surface, only on the surface. I was merely saying "It has it all, as a figure of speech refering to TCMA." Back to only on the surface.

Bak Mei has tons of Chin na, every circular movement represents a strike, a lock, a break, or a throw. Bak Mei is literally filled with chin-na. Kol la. You just gotta know what to look for.

As for it having a groundfighting game like bjj, bjj has a groundfighting game like bjj. That is there specialty. But, Bak Mei has heaps of groundfighting as well, you just have to know what to look for throughout the system...Speaking form wise, do you know the form day sut kuen? It translates to ground killing fist. Anyways, it has some awesome hits, locks, lock to break combos, lock to throw combos, lock to takedown combos, as well as some good chokes, arm breaks, and etc. Lay down, check out your leverage, your space, and shiot, and there you go.

[EarthDragon]

Tao Yin ,
Excellent post thats what I am looking for. I am actually trying to talk a friend into trying the system. He has been with me for a few years but has moved away and has no mantis in his area, but does have bak mei, so he asked my my opinon. I could not give him one because I did not know enough about the system to give it, and I am always honest and thorough(sp?) in my advice.

I have found many stlyes that lack the whole pie of CMA. Styles that just have a smal piece of the completeness. (I am spoiled and used to praying mantis). Like BJJ which is always compared to kung fu. why I dont know but bjj guys think kung fu is flashy and lacks ground skill. But that I believe is just out of lack of knowledge and comprehension.

I am glad you responded to my cry for help, as the other thread decayed into a mud slinging match.
PS I did leave you a message to come here so disreguard that now.
I will check out those sites you gave me and try to get some more info from there. Thank you so much and look forward to talking with you again although I am usually on the northern mantis side. please check out my webiste next time you are on break and veiw some good pictures. let me know what you think sincerly ED

Tiger Hand.
all complete kung fu styles have ground fighting in them. Remember bjj came from japanese jujitsu which came from shuai chiao (chinese wrestling), so please do not assume bjj is independant and not originally from chinese kung fu, everything is from kung fu......... peace ED

[Falcor]

Coolness. Thanks for all the detailed info. A couple of questions if you don't mind:

1. I've had some experience with SPM in the past and retain most of what I've learned (which wasn't all that much, but what I got was good stuff). How similar are these two (considering their mutual Hakkaness) in terms of training methodology and fighting tactics/strategy?

2. Is there and if so what is - the core sets of Bakmei? Or the Pillars that embody the essence of Bakmei?

and finally,

3. Since it's known as an internal/external system, what aspects are considered internal and what aspects are considered external? Does it have Qigong/Heigung sets that are more internal and fighting sets that are more external (for example)? Can you explain a little more about this?

Thanks a bunch!

[Falcor]

Oh, I do have one more question :)

4. I've heard that Bakmei also incorporates a number of animals. How is this done? Is it more the energy/intent of the animals like Hsing-I or does it have more physical techniques of the animals like Hung Ga?

[TAO YIN]

Earth Dragon,

I am glad that I could be of some help to you. Bak Mei is a kewl art, and I think that your friend would benefit from it with a good Sifu. Anyways, I checked out your website! Cool stuff! IMHO, from the very little that I have seen, 8 Step Mantis Rocks!! I remember seeing an old black and white vid clip of 8 Step Mantis once. I can't remember the guys name at the moment?? Maybe Wei? But anyways, he was an older man and he moved effortlessly and had fast springy hands. Actually, I stayed as a full-time student at the Wah Lum Temple in Orlando for a little while. I thought that it had turned a little too Wushuish, but there were some people there that definetely had developed some mad skills. This was before I had even heard about 8 Step, so I really didn't know any better. Is 8 Step Mantis similar to Wah Lum's Jut Sow Mantis at all? From what I have heard, 8 Step is a very combat oriented Northern Mantis system. Can you tell me a little bit more about 8 Step? I hope to talk to you again!


Falcor,

Awesome questions. I will try my best to answer, but be sure to take what I say with a grain of salt!! :)

1.

In terms of training methodology and fighting tactics/strategy, both SPM and Bak Mei are extremely similar. With both arts, I don't see much in the area of defense persay. I think both arts follow the idea that the best defense is an awesome offense. In other words, bridge up with the opponent or smash his bridge, and then beat him to death in the most efficent way. Both systems use Geng Jak Ging and Fou Chum Tun Tou. Although each system has its own different way of expressing these powers, the end result is usually a sudden vast amount of short power attacks aimed at vital pressure points. Both arts used iron body and iron hand techniques. Both use various conditioning tools such as roller bar, iron rings, claw bags, and iron palm bags, just to name a few. Both systems are very "hands on" with 3, 5, and 7 star drills, many different types of 2 man sensitivity drills, close range sparring, and etc.

As far as differences...of course there are lots there too. Bak Mei is mainly left side forward, and SPM from what I know is right side forward. IMHO, Bak Mei is a softer than SPM, although this is hard to prove. IMHO, SPM is a bit shorter range than bak mei, although this is difficult to say too as it depends on the practitioner. Anyways, in a nutshell, both of these arts are strikingly similar hakka styles. Of course, there are differences between them, but hey, this post is way to long to begin with, and I am no authority.


2.

The Core/Pillar forms of Bak Mei are Jik Bo Kuen, Gow Bo Tui, Sup Baat Mor Kuil, and Meng Fu Chut Lum.


3.

Woah you had to ask this one...hehehe. :) In some lineages of Bak Mei, they have chi gung meditation specifically to develop the internal. However, I want to keep this to one idea. With these pillar sets, internal and external is simultaneously combined with the breath. Bak Mei uses Fou Chum Tun Tou and Geng Jak Ging. All of this basically translates to "proper body mechanics" with breath. The idea is for each move to have an equal amount of internal and external power, and simultaneously flow into the next move. The "scared power" is what happens at the end of the strike so to speak. The strikes goes from soft to hard and back to soft again or vice versa depending on the situation. Therefore the attacks are always flowing, always hitting. When you hit the opponent with the phoenix eye fist for instance, the idea is you sink your breath and contract all of your joints and muscles at once behind the fist. Therefore, your entire being is behind every hit, and every hit flows into the next hit. Anyways, this is the basic idea more or less.

Woah, Ive already posted too long a post, sorry for the ramble

4.

Too be continued......anyone else want to chime in here perhaps? :)


Sincerely,

Tao:)

[Shaolin Dude]

in jackie chan's my story, he mentioned bak mei uses the teeth. what's the purpose of that?

[Lowlynobody]

Well I haven't seen jackie chan's my story but the teeth are kept closed and are clenched with each strike. This reduces the rebound that happens when bak mei fundermentals are used to strike with ging. Else you can give yourself a headache and not all of your power is going into the person being struck. Bak Mei power is sometimes like a whole body spasim for an instant and then relaxed again.

4. Animals - one way bak mei incorporates animals is via the body posture which is called hum hung bart boy. ie tiger back, dragon waist, monkey stomach and chest, eagle vision and spirit shown in the eyes, etc. Another way is via the mindset. Bak Mei is a tiger system and, when taught right, very aggressive.

One thing different between Bak Mei and SPM is the dynamic tension which is in SPM at the start. But realy the two powers are much the same in the end. The power is the same its just developed in a different way. I think the iron shirt that are in both systems are much the same as well. This type of iron shirt is a result of the power generation method which is based very much on breathing, luk hup, fau chum tun tou, hum hung bart boy, and the stance. Thus a strike them when being struck or strike when they move mentality is used to great effect. Strike with ging and you will not get hurt.

Yau Kung Mun has a set called Ying Ching which has alot of dynamic tension in it and I think sort of bridges the gap. Though the set is not from SPM. Truly if you want to get a good feel for what Bak Mei is realy like in application and see some application clips that are good go to www.yaukungmun.com.au and check out the technique workshop page. Now people might get p i s s y by me putting that up but realy you will find no better site.

And check out that bakmeiquan forum. Myself and Tao Yin have been posting on there for a while now. And there are some who know alot on there though they post little.


LN.

[fiercest tiger]

Bak Mei has grappling, seizing within the system! The problem has been when students have learnt or the teacher just doesnt like the grappling range and focus's on the hand and legs?!

Of course it uses the most effective and basic grappling and seizing skills IMHO.

Tao and ying,

PUH

FT:)

[Lowlynobody]

LOL :p


I gues we should metion all the throwing bak mei has. All those circles can lock or throw and there sure are alot of them. Hell its funny when people say there isn't much joint manipulation or throwing in bak mei. I mean its a tiger system, right, and you have all those claw technques with all those circles and waist useage and all the times where a fist can represent a hand closed around a limb. Hell a simple Guarn Sau can be a joint lock and be used to break, depending. How about the many uses of Kol Lar and the arm breaks/throws that it can be used for.

And then you have Day Sut...

One thing has got me puzzled. Someone mentioned the influence of wing chun on bak mei. I'm not sure where that came from. But I don't think wing chun has much of any influence on bak mei. Correct me if you feel I'm wrong.

LN aka Ying

[Pakmei]

Hi guys,

There seems to be some confusion about the grappling aspect of Pak Mei.

The emphasis is placed on grabbing the clothing of the opponent instead of the hands, wrists, etc.

In a real situation, your opponent is most likely going to be fully clothed, so here when the Pak Mei stylists say's that this technique is grabbing/locking, then it is mainly associated to the clothing.

Once you have grabbed the clothing, then your opponent will find it very hard to escape.

Hope that helps

[Lowlynobody]

Actualy that is your perspective based on what you have been taught or something, as is the same for me. Realy though why have a strong tiger claw if your just going to grab cloths? What about clawing the bicep, elbow, lats, pectorial, tricep, hand, forearm, shoulder crese, etc? Bak Mei doesn't attack viatals any more?

What will be more effective - grabbing someone cloths or clawing/locking vital points to maintain postitional dominance and shut down available weapons through pain compliance?

I mean, seriously, are you joking? Or is it just that you live where its cold and everyone is rugged up so its been 'changed' (bad word but anyway) to facilitate this?

[Tit Sa]

all complete kung fu styles have ground fighting in them. Remember bjj came from japanese jujitsu which came from shuai chiao (chinese wrestling), so please do not assume bjj is independant and not originally from chinese kung fu, everything is from kung fu......... peace ED

If this is true then bak mei would be the same as shuai jiao, which is the same as jujitsu, which is the same as BJJ.

But we know bak mei isn't shuai jiao, and shuai jiao isn't jujitsu, and traditional jujitsu isn't BJJ.

TAO YIN-

As for it having a groundfighting game like bjj, bjj has a groundfighting game like bjj. That is there specialty

Are you saying BJJ has a type of fighting only effective against BJJ?

Fighting is fighting. If you say bak mei has different ground grappling then what does it resemble? Judo? wrestling?

I have seen a lot of different styles of day sut, and none of them have highly technical grappling work, such as BJJ or judo.

If you say bak mei has this then please enlighten me on the tactics and strategies of it's groundfighting.

[whitelotusfist]

I have been taught quite a few locks / throws / grabs in the system. Most grabs are to body parts and not clothing, although im sure some techniques work when applied to clothing. The main grabbing points that my sifu emphasises are wrist/hands/throat. Many take down techniques are done without grabbing and with open hands while locking a limb. I find the takedowns in pak mei more practical than the one in judo which i have also studied when i was younger. This is probably because nearly every takedown that i have learnt involves really damaging some part of the body on the way down, arm / kneck / back / wrist / shoulder / throat etc and are pretty nasty.
I am pretty crap at some of the locks though and find that if the technique isnt spot on then i start trying to use my own strength which isnt correct.
WLF

[fiercest tiger]

Bak Mei has throws, sweeps, reeps, locks and levers. It has ground fighting but only very basic and not as much as BJJ but still should ge you out of a situation. Standing arms and leg lokcs, chokes and strangles, takedowns and submissions.

I think alot of the bak mei teachers either didnt go far into grappling within there art or choose not to fight using it!

But it is there!

FT

[phantom]

Tao Yin, you mentioned that there is religion taught in this style. Is it necessary to learn it? I think that a sifu would risk getting sued for religious discrimination if he or she forced a student to be of a particular religion. Thanks in advance.

[EarthDragon]

Wow, this thread is really taking off with some great info comming forth, thank you bak mei guys! As I said I am rarley on the southern board but find some good threads often enough.

Tit Sa,
I think maybe you misinterperated my meaning or perhaps I was'nt clear in my statement. I simply meant that kung fu is the mother of all asian martial arts and the subsiteraries of them are born from chinese influence. I did not mean that bjj is jujitsu or bak mei is shuia chiao but simply a version from the original. i.e there was no karate in japan before the chinese influence of such arts. This was my point, people make crazy assumptions about things in which they fail to see the whole picture. Peace.

Tao Yin,
thank you for the compliment on my site, a college student one of my kung fu students did it and it to me could be a little more tradtional but people seem to like it reguardless.

I have met mimi and master chan pui on different occasions and they seem very nice and have a lot of talent in many area's.
I do know that wah lum mantis is more of a flashy type of mantis, not to take away from it but 8 step is much more combative and fight oriented. It has much more of a combat approach than any other mantis systems. It is actually a high brid of 7 * with ba gua foot work added to give it better attacking angles that work more effeciently in combat.
The video you saw might have been my teacher's teacher, Wei Xiao Tung he was a heavy man but could move like the wind and extremly famous in the nothern part of china as well as taiwan where he lived.
I do not want to take to much time away from this thread to talk about mantis but would be happy to answer any questions you have about it.
Yes you did help me a lot and I appreciate it very much. Take care ED................

[TAO YIN]

Tit Sa stated;

"Are you saying BJJ has a type of fighting only effective against BJJ?

Fighting is fighting. If you say bak mei has different ground grappling then what does it resemble? Judo? wrestling?

I have seen a lot of different styles of day sut, and none of them have highly technical grappling work, such as BJJ or judo.

If you say bak mei has this then please enlighten me on the tactics and strategies of it's groundfighting."


No, I'm not saying that at all. I was simply saying that BJJ is BJJ, they specialize in groundfighting. Jujutsu is Jujutsu, Judo is Judo, Wrestling is Wrestling...they all have their own respective specialities. Some of the styles are more "well rounded" than the others, and some are not. Yes, again, this all depends on the practitioner. Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion. However, realistically, grappling is grappling no matter how you look at it. Sure, a BJJer might be more effective at using this move or that move, a Judoer might be more effective at using this move or that move, a Wrestler might be more effective at using this move or that move, but at the end of the day, with regards to grappling, the practitioner is either using submission joint locks, ground and pound, or getting bashed.

At the beginning of a form, the first stance across the board of CMA, is the neutral stance (standing upright with the feet together or close to together). Now picture a person in guard, or better yet, just laying down. Doing an arm bar is similar to standing upright with your hands down and relaxed. The only difference is that you are awkwardly lying on your back, using your hands to "python" the opponents arm, and extending your legs to get leverage for the break. Can you picture this? The MAIN difference is that you are lying down. Now of course, this is reading in to the form a bit, and I am sure this is not traditionally what that specific move was used for, but still, your imagination makes the art, if not then its not an art. The thing about a form is, every move, inside every move, inside every move, means, or can mean something. Get a partner and try some of your moves from your forms in guard, look at the circular moves, you will be suprised. Someone said earlier that Bak Mei doesn't have much Chin-Na??? I mean, how so? A circular movement within any system can easily be transformed into a lock, a throw, and all that I stated about it earlier. Again it is up to the person studying the art. Everything becomes Everything, and Nothing becomes Nothing, and everything at the same time. The Bagua goes in all directions whether the practitioner is standing, sitting, in guard, or in mount, or well...you get the point. Those who blindly follow their Sifu's without questioning every aspect of the game will not get very far.

Yes, fighting is fighting, a Bak Mei person on the ground grappling looks like a Bak Mei person on the ground grappling. Sure Bak Mei has techniques that were traditionally designed for the basics of groundfighting, but that is beside the point. That should be the obvious aspect of the art. They should be trying to win by whatever means necessary. Again, at the base of it all, grappling is grappling. In the end, it is up to you, or the practitioner, to take the art to wherever he or she wants to take it.

Lastly, On your mentioning of day sut. You said you have seen a lot of different styles of day sut...It seems to me that you have seen a lot of different styles of everything...So, I am sure that with your vast knowledge you will be able to understand everything that I posted above without question...



Phantom,

The religious influences on Bak Mei are both Taoist and Buddhist. Again, it is up to the student, and in this case, the teacher to see how far or how short they want to take it or delve into it.


Pak Mei,


On the grabbing of the shirt thing, I totally understand where you are coming from; however, I think you should look a bit deeper.

Fiercest Tiger, LOWLY, Earth Dragon, EVERYONE above, and anyone else I left out.........HAPPPPPPPPPPY WEEEKEND!!!!!!!!

Have fun,

Tao

[Falcor]

I'd think any reputable martial art will have aspects of it that will touch on all fight ranges and situations. However, some will specialize on some of these aspects more than others. For instance, Judo has great throws and groundwork, but its locks are not as extensive and its strikes are rudimentary. On the other hand, an art like Wing CHun will be excellent in strikes close-in, its particular forte, but its locks and throws, although existant, will not be as extensive or emphasized as Shuai Jiao or aikido. So it's really sloppy thinking to say that martial Art X has NO ground work or strikes or locks or whatever, likewise its equally sloppy thinking (for example) to say that martial art Y that specializes in strikes has locks and throws on par with martial art Z, which may be one that specializes in locks and throws. I think the real masters, true bada$$es of any art, are the ones that can, not necessarily _do_ everything, but _deal_ with everything thrown at them, and is good at not playing their opponent's game but making the opponent play his own.

Anyway, that's my rambling. This is a great thread so far tho - lot's of great info and discussion and everyone civil and respectful of various POVs.

[TIger Hand]

TAO YIN
"Now of course, this is reading in to the form a bit, and I am sure this is not traditionally what that specific move was used for, but still, your imagination makes the art, if not then its not an art."

Yes I agree. I think I should have said "traditionally" bak mei has moves that weren't "traditionally" used as locks throws etc. I had some experience in jiujitsu and can see many possiblities as chin-na locks.

But on the other hand, I don't think that was how it's traditionlly taught either.

Bak mei in my opinion, is more of a striking art. A striking art that equals the very best and superior to most.

Tit sa
I don't think anything is like bjj on the ground because that is it's specialty. But it does have moves that can be interpreted as grappling and locks.

[TAO YIN]

Tiger Hand stated;

"Bak mei in my opinion, is more of a striking art. A striking art that equals the very best and superior to most."

Definitely!! I agree! Bak Mei is all about using some short power strikes for bashing.
:)

Tao

[Vash]

ttt

[whitelotusfist]

In my style of pak mei the pheonix eye is used but not exclusively, or even predominately. We use palm strikes, ridge hands, fingers, claws,normal fist, dragon fist, wrist, leopard punch, thumb knuckle etc. The single knuckle pheonix eye is only one weapon in the arsenal. Perhaps my sifu will introduce its usage more as my hands become more conditioned i dont know. It has alot of potential to seriously damage an opponent, but is useless unless your hands are properly conditioned and the fist held correctly.
Also i learned the normal fist for several years before even being shown how to form the single knuckle fist.
Does anyone ever use the thumb knuckle held with an open palm to strike to areas such as under the nose? (palm facing up, like throwing a frisbee)i like it!
Cheers
WLF

[whitelotusfist]

Ok, The fist is a seperate technique and not just an aid to Pheonix eye punching IMHO. We have seperate conditioning consisting mainly of push ups on the two striking knuckles. the punch can be thrown from all different stances but for training purposes we usually practice from horse. The punch is thrown from the upwards fist position elbows tucked in, and twisted so it is in a downwards fist position on impact. The other fist comes back to an upwards position in a typical pak mei fashion. This is not like the wing chun chain punch where the fists are vertical. we then train moving and punching from forward or reverse positions, but the punch can also be thrown from backstance. There is usully a slight sink and rise for the power which is accompianed by a small waist movement. There is a very small travelling distance but alot of power can be generated if wrist and body allignment are correct. Regarding the power generation i am only learning so perhaps my definition will change as i progress.
Cheers
Wlf

[yuanfen]

A note on whitelotusfist post:
This is not like the wing chun chain punch where the fists are vertical.
-----------------------------------------------------
The vertical chain punching fist for developmental purposes.
Ther are many other fists in wing chun- including the phoenix eye-used in wing chun style and structure.

On forums we too often compare styles by seeing tips of icebergs.

[Ao Qin]

Hello,

I was taught that there is absolutely no point in practicing with a phoenix eye fist unless you were willing to devote the many months and years to conditioning your hand / finger to withstand the impact of this technique.

Bak Mei and Lung Ying principles easily stand with or without use of this very difficult application - it is not for everyone. I personally feel the grabbing and controlling techniques to be more important - and training time better spent. However, for those willing to invest the time and energy...then I guess you will have somthing that most do not - not sure exactly what that might be, but anyway...

[Lowlynobody]

Might it be bak mei how it should be?

Might be you be getting jipped cos your teacher doesn't want you to know how to use a phoenix?

I mean seriously one could have a useable phoenix after a few months of conditioning and being shown HOW TO USE IT. Even a phoenix that has not been conditioned hard can be used effectivly if used correctly.

yuanfen - on forums we too often run into stupid people. He was using it as a descriptive example. Get a grip and go back to the wing chun forum.

Well I feel better.....


LN.

[Yum Cha]

Originally posted by Lowlynobody
Might it be bak mei how it should be?

Might be you be getting jipped cos your teacher doesn't want you to know how to use a phoenix?


Hey Lowly, did you know your Si Gung wouldn't teach Fung ahn Choi (Phoenix fist) to people for several years? And, he didn't like seeing it in the Kwoon. Lots of Sifu don't believe in teaching it to novices - perhaps that is the way its supposed to be?

[TAO YIN]

Or, perhaps that is the way it once was?

[fiercest tiger]

Yum Cha is right for once ....hehehe Actually sifu leung cheung wouldnt show it on tung jee kuen, but sup jee you would learn it. I teach it from day one unless the student cannot hold a proper fist to start with.

FT:D deaaaaath

[Lowlynobody]

After seeing, feeling and hearing of some of what it can do I can honestly say sigung and you are quite right.

Perhaps jipped was the wrong word to use. For that I apologise.


LN.

[fiercest tiger]

HAHAHHA YOUR A CHIP OF THE OL BLOCK BRO!

YKM Man hahahah

im bad sifu!

FT:eek:

[Lowlynobody]

As someone once said - Welcome to the FOROOM.


:eek:


:p

[fiercest tiger]

you cant SPELL just like me.....;) :rolleyes:

[fiercest tiger]

YOU 2 GOOD FOR US MSN PR!CKS HUH?

I SEEN YOU COME AND LEAVE WE SEE ALL....... HAHAHAHA;)


PUH:eek:

[Lowlynobody]

LAMO :D

[Yum Cha]

Good on ya Lowly mate. If you can eat bitter, you can learn well.

[Lowlynobody]

One can but try...

Gues I get worked up when someone comes on saying something is absolute and right when they even in their own words have no idea and took someone elses word for it.

We still do Tung Jee without the Phoenix. Even once the Phoenix is learned.

[Yum Cha]

Balance in thought as in deed.