Is Qigong cross-transplantable?

[Falcor]

By this I mean that is Qigong you learn in one style translatble to another style? I take it that basically you got health Qigong and martial Qigong. I am under the impression that health Qigong can be applied universally - that Qigong you learn for your health in one art can easily be applied at another art (or is this true?), but I'd think that martial Qigong is somewhat style specific since it's been developed to enhance the effectivensss of that particular art. Is this right? But what about instaces where same or similar Qigong forms are found in different arts - i.e. Muscle Change/Bone Marrow Washing or 18 Lohans - I sometimes find them listed in the syllabi of Northern Mantis and Hung Ga schools. Is this becasue they are health Qigong only? If one knew Iron Wire (for instance - which I hear is a HG Qigong set, essentially), can it be applied to NPM or Hsing-I? What about the reverse - taking some Qigong aspect from an IMA and applying it in a more external art?

[blooming lotus]

sure...qigong is just the cultivation and control and/or direction of the energy/qi...and good health, is good health.....I guess different styles have different cultivation exercises but same sh*t different application...apply it inward or outward through different movements...qi is qi dude

[backbreaker]

I would say absolutely yes. All qigongs are the same in a way, but different styles have different things they are especially good for. Every style I have learned improved aspects of the other styles I did.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Sorry about but I think its obvious that the answer is absolutely no.
Qi gong basically breaks down, to Health, healing, Taoist, Buddhist and martial qi gongs. I think you have to be clear about what it is you are using the qi to cultivate because although moving qi around the body to get rid of blockages in a health qi gong will be of benefit for anything you do in life, other qi gongs are very specific about in what way they are cultivating the qi.
Cultivating qi per se, is a good thing and there are some basic foundational qi gong practices that are good for this, 8 Brocades, Standing post, Taijiwuxigong etc but some of the spiritual qi gongs are very specific in what they do and some people may not want to cultivate in this manner.
There is a reason why there are many different schools of qi gong because their variety indicates different uses, and some are not that universal in what they proport to cultivate and develop.
Im sorry but the any old qi gong mentality is an unhealthy one and in some areas quite a hazardous one too.
This is from personal experience in trying some qi gongs and winding both ill mentally and physically at times.

[EarthDragon]

I would have to agree with repulsive monkey on this. I practice a medical qigong, (by the way there is medical, martial, health, religious and scholar types of qigong) but in my stlye there are specific channels, points and techniques you do to shoot the qi and use it to unlock blocked qi in my patients.
This is in no way similar to basic qi manipulation which just cultivates the qi say in the lower dantien.

This however does not mean that the cultivation's are not alike becuse some very well may be, but different qigong place certain aspects on certain techniques only. That would not be fesible to apply to say general qi excersizes.

[backbreaker]

I cannot agree at all that qigongs are not translatable in general. If you have practiced taijiquan for several years I think you will already know important aspects and pick up other styles more quickly. If a teacher said, forget evrything you have learned previous when you learn this new style, that could be a huge waste of time if you think the principles are different. My experience with different qigong styles is that the principles are universal , but some are good at developing some things at first, and other styles develop other attributes at first , but the skills are transmutable and are important in other styles. Say for example, if a style emphasizes visualisation to more of a degree than another, visualisation skills learned will cross over. If the energy is flowing stronger , then that will cross over. If a style has exellent relaxation techniques it will crossover. I think different breathing methods will come together eventually and crossover. In general, I have found the skills and techniques totally cross over. If you do qigong in the morning, and then in the aftenoon , your afternoon training will better off no matter what the morning qigon was, especially I think if it was different. My general findings though are mostly health and more for beginning. All the qigong I have seen was very similar, and definately crossed over to taiji and others, but I wouldn't take part of one form and put them in another form at all at my level, but I think in general they are all the same with different strengths and weaknesses.It seems cross training is all throughout the past, and many masters in the past combined systems into one. Many though are so similar, even the same. Really the enrgy flow is the same in the arms and legs and body, it doesn't matter whether you move your hand along your arms touching or a few inches away, or if you slap along the arm, it seems the same and transmutable to me even if one focusus on connecting deeper pathways into one path, and one is from the outside moving inwards. Actually I could go on forever about how all the qigongs I've ever seen were all exactly the same in the beginning to intermediate levels and even what I know of advanced. The similarities of all qigongs is surprising to me, Energy paths, absorbing and releasing energy, oneness princple and polarities, , refining energy, internal organs, constellation postures( or entire universe postures), opening closing, stretching. I will say that taiji , qigong, yoga, and meditation are all absolutely translatable with different strengths and weaknesses, as well as probably most martial arts.

I have heard at some point to become a disciple or lineage holder, or go high level, you should focus only on that style until you master it, because the practice can be complicated in many different ways and difficult.

[Golden Arms]

I agree with RM and ED on this one. A couple examples..there are some QiGong techniques in some styles that you only start after you have done some others for a long time, to prevent injuries, both soft and hard. Or, to use Iron Wire set as an example..a person can learn the movements and theory behind it anytime after they can tie their shoes, but to be able to DO what you are really supposed to be doing..you have to be in excellent shape and have been doing various other things for a long time..to the point that they are ingrained in your subconcious and not a concious thing you have to try and do anymore..this takes at least 10 years of heavy practice for most people, if not more, and that is just to start it.

[blooming lotus]

your right, but qi is still qi, no matter how it's applied or cultivated, or what meridian you gather, collect or move it through...sure, different exercises are geared to put focus in different aspects, but like I said, same sh*t, different bucket

[Repulsive Monkey]

It is still unadvisable to switch between different qigongs as they can certainly upset the body, as although qi is qi even though there are many different kinds/ qualities of it aswell though especially when you delve into TCM. If you are doing a specific qigong to move or develop the qi in a certain way and then switch to a different qigong which moves the qi in another way you are undoing the work of one qi gong over another. If you are doing a medical qigong like a bird qigong to help regulate and tonify qi in the lungs and then suddenly you do something else which draws qi away from the lungs a directs it somewhere else, surely you can see that you have negated the medicel/bird qigong in its work?
Switching between several qi gongs frequently most certain can have a detrimental effect in beginners and intermediate stages, in fact when you are highly cultivated and have a supreme control over the bodies energetics then you can do anything becasue then if you have problems you can retrace your steps and move the qi back to a more healthy state more easily, so Blooming Lotus this is in fact the complete opposite of what you've stated.

The truth is, is that not all qi gongs are the same, regardless at what stage the practitioner is at, and that cross training several qi gongs can very easily be hazardous. If you are training a complete qigong, why would you need to cut and paste several others anyway?
This attitude is not down to the qi gong practice its down to the practitioner and their attitude.

[scotty1]

Can't argue with that :)

[Mr Punch]

Surely the answer is is the same as that to all of the other questions on this board:

some of it is

and some of it isn't.

A lot of different kf and tc schools have a version of the eight-brocade, which is a closed set, with its own complete workings on each meridian. I've learnt a few versions, some harder than others, some using different visualization, some using different energy, but it seems that these are superficial variations, or at the worst easily translatable into another kf style.

On the other hand, I know there are some more meridian-specific and technical sets or techniques which follow one very set and individual philosophy.

There are absolutely no absolutes.

:)

[David Jamieson]

no-

some gongs are for specific purposes and will counter others if done together.

qigong exercises that are put together to form a system of gongs should be done in the order they are given and mixing isn't the best idea. You may be undoing what you are trying to achieve by undertaking to mix and match without a more thorough understanding of teh purpose of the gongs.

not dissimilar to yoga in this way. there are schools of yoga which are contradictory but seek to achieve similar goals.

the manipulation of the spine, muscle , tendon and bone should not be approached with any haphazzardness at all.

basic gongs of course are benign in and of themselves, but "specific" gongs are not. If you have not the knowledge or experience then you probably shouldn't be messing with yourself in such a fashion.

The results of gongs are for the most part not immediately apparent in the practitioner and you may notice the benefit or the detriments months or even years later.

reversal is difficult at that point.

It's like building a steel house and then realising that you probably shouldn't have used a clay foundation.

be mindful of your practice and concerned with the teachings you have received. Not to be taken lightly anymore than improper lifting techniques or cv exercises.

Some are advanced and are mneant to be incorporated after other criteria is met and the core is strong.

just fair warning. With time and effort more understanding is gained. Undoing the incorrect will take more time than to do it right at the outset.

cheers

[Repulsive Monkey]

Extremely wise words from Kung Lek there, it would efficacious to pay heed to them.

[phantom]

Well, couldn't you do gongs with different purposes on separate days from each other? Would that give you the best of both worlds? Thanks in advance.

[Golden Arms]

Couldnt you instead just do one until you know exactly what its doing because you can feel and see its benefits, instead of pursuing several and not having the time to get benefit from any? They do take a long time for the most part, especially if you also have to train drills, forms, etc.

[backbreaker]

They're all the same, but different

[blooming lotus]

from a begginners perspective you guys are absolutely correct...unless you are already familiar with the way various systems work and interact, I wouldn't reccommend mixing your applications...not only could you undo what you just did, you could really mess up your inner harmonies and end up sick ......work with getting familiar first through ptractice of either or, don't be shy to read a little...and excuse my bad ;)

[phantom]

Yes, I agree that you should learn one method of Qigong fully first before learning others. I was just wondering if you could learn additional qigongs after you get to that point and do them on opposite days if their purposes conflict with each other. I wonder how some well-known sifus learned two or more kung fu styles that had conflicting qigongs? For example, I have heard that hung gar has some qiqongs that would conflict with those of hsing-I, yet there are some sifus that teach both hung gar and hsing-i.

[norther practitioner]

But did they do both qigong styles...

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by phantom
Yes, I agree that you should learn one method of Qigong fully first before learning others. I was just wondering if you could learn additional qigongs after you get to that point and do them on opposite days if their purposes conflict with each other. I wonder how some well-known sifus learned two or more kung fu styles that had conflicting qigongs? For example, I have heard that hung gar has some qiqongs that would conflict with those of hsing-I, yet there are some sifus that teach both hung gar and hsing-i.

I guess different styles having different ideas of how qi should be gathered, stored , collected and moved according to that particular set of movements and the underlying style imo ...it'd be silly to interchange that.....

[EarthDragon]

Funny this thread has been started just recently becuase I just got back from my qigong teachers house and asked her about mixing various types of qigong excersizes that this thread has asked.

Her answer was no, not good, dont do this. Different skill for different reason, not mix well together. This place special attention to do something specific not same.

As you can tell her english is not that good and its hard to really comprehend what she is exactly saying. I asked isnt chi just chi, she said no everything has chi not always same.

She then explained to me that in your focus and your goal you are striving to reach one thing in perticular. This is not possible if you take different paths. Just because you do qigong skill for healing does not mean qigong healing skill will make you punch harder.

This is how I felt but I just wanted to ask her for her input on this topic.

It's like saying religion is religion and if you know one you can just understand another because you are already spiritual, or you have an understanding of what religion is so its comparable.....

[Repulsive Monkey]

"All the same but different" backbreaker is hardly true. If you do think qi is qi and that doing any gong will be good in the long run is a massive misnomer.

The analogy of religion is a classic and vital one in that you could spend your life trying to cultivate yourself through one faith and mix it with another one which promotes being good to people and trying to spread love to human-kind but dogmatically opposes the original faith. Or one could become a new age hippy and try and take all the nice safe bits from a variety of others and in a vague way gloss over the most important apsect, namely being foundational structure, and practice a load of rubbish.
A complete qi gong system is all thats needed, in this way it should cover all areas and be complete in its progression as all its practices are in harmony and don't contraindicate.

A strong and clear foundation to a building means it can climb tall without fear of toppling and it reamins that way for a lifetime. A mixed and unfounded idea of structure is bound to either topple or create anomoalies the higher up you get. Some materials of the building just won't gel together and keep the building upright or will cause stresses on the structure.

[backbreaker]

I would like to do an experiment on qigong, but never will. Take the beginner level of one Taoist style, then combine it to the intermediate level of another. It seems to me that that should work, although not as well as the original system. Different styles use different methods to do the same thing. All qigongs are the same, do the same things and cross over to each other. If a teacher tells me to forget everything I learned with other teachers when I start his style I will say no, my old qigong will crossover and give me a better understanding and I'll learn more quickly. I don't really beleive in this canceling each other out stuff unless you're totally mixing up what form does what or totally mixing forms of different levels. I'm not saying qi is qi, I'm saying all qigongs I've ever learned or even read about work with the qi to acheive the same result. In principle they are all similar. So if I do the first form of one style, and then the first form of another style that does the exact same thing, it won't be much different than doing the same form twice. I can't see how beginner and intermediate level of different methods is at all contradictory, all qigong is the same. In one style of qigong, there will be a form that does the excact same thing in another, how can forms that do the exact same thing cause problems to each other? For example, how could Daoist 6 healing sounds be contradictory to a daoist style that did not have healing sounds but used different methods to cultivate the 5 elements? Seems like healing sounds could fit right in and be compatible. They are all the same in principle. If you say 2 qigongs can cancel each other out I say fine maybe, but then some should also be completely compatible. Wait an hour in between qigongs. All do the same things with the energy, different methods, the theory is the same across the board , so how are they different and not compatible?

[Shaolinlueb]

since everyone else said it. i will say it too.

yes a lot of the same chin-na techniques will be seen in many different styles.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by backbreaker
I would like to do an experiment on qigong, but never will. Take the beginner level of one Taoist style, then combine it to the intermediate level of another. It seems to me that that should work, although not as well as the original system.



IF IT AINT BROKE...



Different styles use different methods to do the same thing.




NOT EXACTLY TRUE, UNLESS YOU'RE TALKING GENTIC CULTIVATION AND CONTROL OF QI TO ACHIEVE BALANCE, CONTROL, AWARENESS AND HEALTH

All qigongs are the same, do the same things and cross over to each other. If a teacher tells me to forget everything I learned with other teachers when I start his style I will say no, my old qigong will crossover and give me a better understanding and I'll learn more quickly.


MAYBE ...i CAN SEE BOTH SIDES HERE..




I don't really beleive in this canceling each other out stuff unless you're totally mixing up what form does what or totally mixing forms of different levels. I'm not saying qi is qi, I'm saying all qigongs I've ever learned or even read about work with the qi to acheive the same result. In principle they are all similar. So if I do the first form of one style, and then the first form of another style that does the exact same thing, it won't be much different than doing the same form twice. I can't see how beginner and intermediate level of different methods is at all contradictory, all qigong is the same. In one style of qigong, there will be a form that does the excact same thing in another, how can forms that do the exact same thing cause problems to each other?



WHAT A SAD MISCONCEPTION....WHILE THEY MAY HAVE THE SAME ENDS, THEY CULTIVATE THROUGH DIFFERENT ROUTES AND IF YOU SKI[P A LOOP YOU'RE F*CKED ;)




For example, how could Daoist 6 healing sounds be contradictory to a daoist style that did not have healing sounds but used different methods to cultivate the 5 elements? Seems like healing sounds could fit right in and be compatible. They are all the same in principle. If you say 2 qigongs can cancel each other out I say fine maybe, but then some should also be completely compatible. Wait an hour in between qigongs. All do the same things with the energy, different methods, the theory is the same across the board , so how are they different and not compatible?


BY DOING THIS ...WAITING AN HOUR AND PROCEEDING TO DIFFERENT METHOD, i GUESS YOU COULD, BUT YOU'D BE GEARING YOUR SYSTEM TO A DIFFERENT FLOW, SO AS FAR AS I CAN TELL..UNLESS YOU WERE REALLY AWARE AND FAMILIAR WITH YOUR SYSTEMS, YOU'D BE SELLING YOUR FIRST PRACTICE SHORT...THE IDEA IS TO SETTLE OUR ENERGIES, NOT CAUSETHEM TO GO ERRADIC...i THINK EVETUALLY YOUR BODY WOULD JUST GO "WTF ARE YOU DOING TO ME" AND YOU'D END UP SICK...THEN AGAIN /I OFTEN INCORPEATE DIFFERENT QIGONGS IN CLOSE TIMEFRAMES, OR EVEN OFFTHE BACK OF EACH OTHER, BUT IT TOOK ME MANY YEARS BEFORE i EVEN CONSIDERED IT...JUST BE AWARE OF WHAT YOUR DOING :cool:

[backbreaker]

Bl- if they have the same ends based on the same principles, why are they contradictory? why would you miss something in the loop? I guess you can say different bodies are diiferent, but at some point you strive for a body based on the principles of qigong. The systems should be able to merge since they are the same, but that would require a high level understanding. I can see how you only have one body, and can't mix it up, and the practices can be complicated. But all qigongs I've ever learned were the same really, although they seemed different at first. I look for the similarities to see if the qigong is for real, based on the styles I have learned. I do not mix qigongs or choose what aspects or priciple are most important, and I don't mix qigongs with the hope of getting a "complete system" . I wait a hour inbetween different styles, but they don't contradict at all. Qigong is a means to an end based on energetic principles, how can they be different from each other but still be based on the same principles? They are all the same. It's a sad misconception that all qigongs are not the same, I think there should be some compatibility, and I know different styles are complimentary without any trouble if they are real, and in general if you wait a hour inbetween. Why does the method matter, if the purpose is the same? Is taijiquan contradictory to qigong. If someone put taijiquan as the first thing in their qigong system they teach, what would be the problem? Next yoou're gonna say the time of day and what qigong you do is vitally important, I guess I'll have to get up at 3am to do 7 big dipper gong

BTW, I do not think any old qigong is a good idea at all. Only real ones, which, are related and the same

[backbreaker]

My Chen Taijiquan teacher said Taiji is a perfect integration of qigong styles and martial arts styles. I've heard that bagua may be a combo of external styles, internal, and qigong circle walking.

[blooming lotus]

dude...chill out...we meditate rembember :p :D

I guess I dont really see a problem for yourself, and I still say qi is qi..but different forms send it throughdifferent passages, and it'd have to suck if you put everything nto it, to interchange qigongs and miss or even undo a meridian or two...but if your comfortable you can pullit off, chances are, you probably can...

cheers :cool:

[backbreaker]

I'm not the one yelling. How are different styles different? All I've ever seen was the same paths of enery, and different styles doing the same thing, but some might use visualisation, some movement, some uses acupoints, some use breathing some don't, but they are the same

In the qigongs I have seen-

beginner level = beginner level

intermediate = intermediate

advanced = advanced

I can see how mixing up levels could cause confusion of energy, but learning something in one qigong style is transplantable , and can give you a better understanding of, another style. I'm not saying though, add the breathing techniques or visualisation of one style into another style, no that would be bad. I'm saying that the breathing in that style does the same thing as the movements of another style, so doing one style can improve another style. Taiji can improve your qigong, and Qigong can improve your Taiji absolutely. I guess though, there is a reason there are different schools of qigong , I just can't really explain it other than different frequencies and densities of high level qigong, but there must be some reason. It seems they all cultivate the same thing in the end, so I can't see how they are different in the beginning and the end. But if there are thousands of Tao school qigongs, thousands of buddha school qigongs, and many mixed, and also others, they have to be the same but different.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by backbreaker
I'm not the one yelling.




OK..I SEE WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, BUT DUDE..i'M MID QUOTE HERE!:);p





As for the rest I totally agree, and I do it myself, just wouldn't recommend it to a begginner ;)

[backbreaker]

Yes, that seems to make sense. I think however, they're all the same but different, is an accurate statement. This is a weird paradox I beleive. Why would one qigong do different things with qi, if they all have the same goal in the end?

[blooming lotus]

there are a whole bunch of different meridians and points and ways to bring and clear energy to and from those ...there are different schools of thought on how this should be done,,,


like saying to grow such and such a muscle, do x amout of this excercise, then strech for this amount of time then pump for x..

when school b. says no..first you pump x, then you cross through y, stretch a little do some cario and come back for some stretches and go to isometrics??

different ideas of the path a takes to create b...one in the same ...but totally different ;)

[Repulsive Monkey]

However the blazing generalising is that all qi -gongs end up at the same finishing post and they don't.
Some spiritual qi-gongs will try to lead you to enlightenment, whereas the end path of Iron Shirt qi-gong will end up trying to make the physical body impervious to attacks.
The qi is the same the results are wildly different, why can you not see this?

[David Jamieson]

it is clear that some people here are typing for the sake of typing :)

It's ok not to know. It is clear that there is a lot that is not known here in regards to the regulation and manipulation of Chi in the human body. Those people will not get far with the little they have. And if that sounds harsh, it is meant too. it is not to be taken lightly as I stated earlier. But if you want to "play" with yourself, it's your prerogative.

Study, retain the knowledge and live the experience. Ask the questions and seek the answers.

cheers

[omarthefish]

Maybe they've been practicing all their mixed qi-gong styles and have already "zou huo ru mo". (an ancient Chinese proverb that means: Practice a bunch of crazy mixed up qi-gong and ****ed up your brain and gone crazy)

It's such common sense to people in China not to mix and match that when somebody is nuts or just a wacko they say he has "ru mo le", a reference to what happens when you aren't carefull with qi-gong.

:D

[Mr Punch]

I don't know but...
This seemed like a balanced post...:D
Surely the answer is is the same as that to all of the other questions on this board...
There are absolutely no absolutes.

:) No matter what you do with some of this miracle/dangerous gongs, I don't think a closed gong system, as a complete set, will be effected or will effect you adversely if you learn it properly.

If think your gong is soooo miraculous it is effecting your body soooo much that doing a closed gong set like eight-brocade will disrupt somethin gin the way your body works you are deranged, deluded or plainly doing something very very wrong. But not absolutely so.

:shrugs:

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
it is clear that some people here are typing for the sake of typing :)

It's ok not to know. ... Those people will not get far with the little they have. And if that sounds harsh, it is meant too. it is not to be taken lightly as I stated earlier. But if you want to "play" with yourself, it's your prerogative.

Study, retain the knowledge and live the experience. Ask the questions and seek the answers.

cheers Pompous wank. Pompous condescending wank. And if that sounds harsh, it's meant to.

:D :p

Omar, your proverbs sound interesting, could you give us a more direct translation please?

[scotty1]

It's Miller Time. :D

[David Jamieson]

mat, didn't mean to bug ya, but there it is :)

[phantom]

What about iron palm? Does the rule of not mixing qiqongs apply to not doing iron palm on the same day as you do other qigongs? It is one practice that is common among most, if not all kung fu styles, which makes me wonder if it is compatible with any other qiqong? Thanks in advance.

[blooming lotus]

:rolleyes: at this whole thread

[phantom]

Why? I find this thread very interesting.

[blooming lotus]

because you have some guy going on about how he'd never do it, but what if you...blah blah blah..then in lack of experience tries to convince us otherwise...whatever...some of us, while we don't mind helping out and doing a trade on notes, kinda have better things to do ...ya know

[backbreaker]

All qigongs are the same and should be able to be integrated. Why not? I'm gonna go as far as to say that the qigong labels are arbitrary with the possible exception of medical and martial, but even then many qigongs are both and are integrated and not contradictory , how are they different? Does one style not have an equivelant in other styles?

[norther practitioner]

how are they different?

different gongs,

work on different areas of the body

don't be a d*ck

[backbreaker]

But they are all integrated to each other, balanced properly, so why would it not be tranplantable from system to system if they are all so-called complete. Cross training is all throughout the past, I don't think there would at all be problems if integrated properly, and poeple seem to be aware that there can be some problems if mixed incorrectly. In any qigong with a physical purpose , the breathing will be the first thing you need, I have never learned breathing methods that were contradictory, they were all the same. There may be different ways to acheive the same purpose, but I don't see how they are contradictory, I don't see an issue of over training or counteracting the training, only that you did the same thing twice a different way. How does training one part of the body counterat another in qigong? I think the short answer is all qigongs are of the same family and integratable and even the same. There can be problems if combined incorrectly. Is taijiquan contradictory to qigong? No it's the same family. Does taiji drain the qi from the lungs if you just did lung qigong? I doubt it. There may be sometthing to it though, like in some styles they give up the beginner practices when they go advanced I've heard, but I cannot see why qigongs are contradictory unless they are made up or a modern creation.

All qigongs are originally of the same family. That is clear to me. Integrating systems is all throughout the past. Is there any pure system? Why is it not true?

[David Jamieson]

But they are all integrated to each other, balanced properly, so why would it not be tranplantable from system to system if they are all so-called complete.

They aren't all integrated. One complete system is not the same as another complete system.


Cross training is all throughout the past, I don't think there would at all be problems if integrated properly, and poeple seem to be aware that there can be some problems if mixed incorrectly. In any qigong with a physical purpose , the breathing will be the first thing you need,

Yes breathing is at the heart of qigong, the words themselves mean "breath work" but breath in terms of chi kung isn't just the simple act of in and out with the lungs. And air isn't just "air"


I have never learned breathing methods that were contradictory, they were all the same.

There are breathing methods that are contradictory.


I don't see an issue of over training or counteracting the training, only that you did the same thing twice a different way.

Practice this way long enough and you WILL see a difference. And you WILL see an issue with it.



How does training one part of the body counterat another in qigong? I think the short answer is all qigongs are of the same family and integratable and even the same.

The energies you direct to one area are compromised by taking from them to direct to another. All gongs are not of the same family and though some are integrateable and some from different families are the same, this is not a truism or rule of thumb or even a general sense of gongs.


There can be problems if combined incorrectly. Is taijiquan contradictory to qigong? No it's the same family. Does taiji drain the qi from the lungs if you just did lung qigong? I doubt it.

Yes there are problems if combined incorrectly, which taijiquan and which gong? No they are not the same family. I cannot speak to whether taijiquan will drain after a lung practice (do you mean dragon or meridian btw?) I 'm not sure what you are doubting.


There may be sometthing to it though, like in some styles they give up the beginner practices when they go advanced I've heard, but I cannot see why qigongs are contradictory unless they are made up or a modern creation.

Progression is something that happens as you learn more, after all, you give up crawling when you learn to walk.

Everything you see that people do and build and create is "made up". Whether something is modern usually has no bearing on something. it is not whether it is modern or ancient, it is whether it is correct or incorrect in this context.


All qigongs are originally of the same family. That is clear to me. Integrating systems is all throughout the past. Is there any pure system? Why is it not true?

They are not originally of the same family. It shouldn't be clear to you in the respect that there are prana vedic practices, qi gong practices, shamanistic practices around the globe that all developed isolated from each other and all deal with leading energies throught the body. Yes there are "pure" systems. There are buddhist systems, taoist systems notably as well as many others. If you mean that they are all developed in the same lineage of practitioners. Otherwise I'm not certain what you mean by "pure".

I don't know what you mean by "why is it not true?"


regards

[backbreaker]

I mean "pure" according to the many labels such as martial, medical, buddhist, taoist, etc. How do you know that different qigong systems are different in the effects generated, and are not related. When I was 15 I learned O mei qigong and when I was 18 I learned kunlun qigong from a different teacher. I cannot see how these qigongs could contradict each other at all. I cannot see how any real qigong could be contradictory unless it is bad for you:confused:

[Gangsterfist]

Qigong has many different lineages from many different families. Some are good, some are pointless, some are so-so, some are medical and health related, some are martial related, and some are religious or spiritual.

Just question yourself and your sifu teaching you qigong. Your sifu should gladly answer any question you ask, just remember to be civil when asking.

[EarthDragon]

backbreaker,
Perhaps one of the reasons you are confused in what we are trying to say is becuase the qigong that you have mention that you learned are extremly basic and actually quite elementary.

Please dont take this the wrong way or that it's an insult becuase it is not meant to be. I have been doing qigong for only 7 years, but have been fortunate to study privately under one of china's highest level masters. I have asked many questions about different qigong excersizes and types of qigong I have read about but I am told by her that they are very general in content and taught openly to whomever.

Little varience is noticed by the begginer, and I say that under 10 years is a begginer, so it takes time to notice what and why qigong skill differs and should not be blended nor jump from one to another.

I have tried to include a picture from my website for you to view but I am not sure how to do it and not very computer savvy but if you want you can see a high level skill, my shrfu is putting qi into my leg and I am inserting a 9 inch steel wire through my quatrcept muscle. I have done this through many parts of my body in the view of western doctors without any pain or bleeding. this connot be explained in western medicine and astounds the people who watch.
I have performed this on television and also asked other people to try it who thought it was a trick or that I could withstand pain.

They cannot however explain that the insertion does not bleed one drop, again unexplained in the medical field. please feel free to view or if someone knows how to paste the picture its at www.kungfuusa.net second picture in the masters catagory under the photos button. ED

[backbreaker]

Cool EarthDragon. You are right, I am a beginner and I have never been exposed to anything that wasn't taught to anybody publically. Sticking needles through yourself without injury is way beyond me, so yeah I'm low beginner. I will not at all challenge what you say about mixing qigongs anymore, and obviously you are not the only one who says this. I have heard and read this before but I also see much beginning level stuff as the same. So still, everything I've seen was the same in a way, or very similar. Why exactly would a qigong be contradictory to another or cancel it out? Is it because it is one whole complete system? Taiji is not contradictory to qigong is it? They are surely related, are they not? At beginner level I have improved my understanding of Different qigongs and Taijiquan by cross training. Taiji does not bend the back over but qigong does, is that not good to do both? Of course I'm basic and begginer. Isn't begginer level more physical and health oriented?

[backbreaker]

What I think at my level of understanding is that qigong is not so neatly catorgorized in reality. And is all related , similar, and based on the same principles with the same goal . A style should have medical and martial, right? So in general what is the contradiction?

IF one style improves mental clarity for the rest of the day, that will translate to everything you do. It seems that every master says to do one system at a time and focus on one system, but why? The intricateness of the whole system? How is qigong so weak that it will be counteracted? Is the energy really different? Is it differences between the masters themselves, like all people are the same but different. Does it involve the issue of transmission from master to student? Like the energy is a chain not to be broken or changed because you will not be as connected to the master and previous lineage of the school? why would that matter though? I can find no contradictions in any qigong I do, even if I did them in a row together. If a teacher really knew and was sure their style should be practiced exclusively, I would either accept it or not do that style. I have done qigong for 9 years, 6 years with the teacher I learn from now, he now says they are all similar. Myself I have not had contradictions in the qigong I do or martial arts even if I do them all in a row together, just more energy. I have no fear of deviations at all

What exactly is the contradiction? Martial qigong is good, and so is health qigong right? you want both? Is this about not mixing systems of qigongs or types? If it's about full systems, what is the contradiction? Seems strange to me that one could hinder another, I have not experienced one style canceling out another at all

[backbreaker]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by EarthDragon
[B]I would have to agree with repulsive monkey on this. I practice a medical qigong, (by the way there is medical, martial, health, religious and scholar types of qigong) but in my stlye there are specific channels, points and techniques you do to shoot the qi and use it to unlock blocked qi in my patients.
This is in no way similar to basic qi manipulation which just cultivates the qi say in the lower dantien.

Are you sure that these techniques are not the same in other styles though?

[backbreaker]

Originally posted by Kung Lek


They aren't all integrated. One complete system is not the same as another complete system.

bb: How is that so?

Yes breathing is at the heart of qigong, the words themselves mean "breath work" but breath in terms of chi kung isn't just the simple act of in and out with the lungs. And air isn't just "air"



There are breathing methods that are contradictory.

bb: How so? Which ones? SHould they not be based on the same principles and same foundation in the same system? I could see how breathing could mix up the energy but not if it is done correctly

Practice this way long enough and you WILL see a difference. And you WILL see an issue with it.

bb: well that's the point eh? To see if there is a problem. Cross training could possibly help this by learning new ways to do the same thing. No?


The energies you direct to one area are compromised by taking from them to direct to another. All gongs are not of the same family and though some are integrateable and some from different families are the same, this is not a truism or rule of thumb or even a general sense of gongs.

bb: I have not found this moving energy to different areas draining other areas to be true at all except immediately maybe for a couple seconds. The gaol of qigongs is enlightenment through energy and goodness right? I can see that the enrgy could be different, but not really, I don't see that

Yes there are problems if combined incorrectly, which taijiquan and which gong? No they are not the same family. I cannot speak to whether taijiquan will drain after a lung practice (do you mean dragon or meridian btw?) I 'm not sure what you are doubting.

bb:Qigong and taiji are not related? I cannot see how that can be
The point of taiji is that it is integrated martial arts and qigong styles

Progression is something that happens as you learn more, after all, you give up crawling when you learn to walk.

Everything you see that people do and build and create is "made up". Whether something is modern usually has no bearing on something. it is not whether it is modern or ancient, it is whether it is correct or incorrect in this context.

If something is correct how is it contradictoy to something else correct?

They are not originally of the same family. It shouldn't be clear to you in the respect that there are prana vedic practices, qi gong practices, shamanistic practices around the globe that all developed isolated from each other and all deal with leading energies throught the body. Yes there are "pure" systems. There are buddhist systems, taoist systems notably as well as many others. If you mean that they are all developed in the same lineage of practitioners. Otherwise I'm not certain what you mean by "pure".

I mean they're all the same but different. Hence , the confusion I have of why you must study one style under one teacher. All I understand is that it is an intricate process, and like a musical instrument if one thing is out of tune it screws up the whole sound, but many things about the instrument are inconsequential. So why are different styles not compatible.





I don't know what you mean by "why is it not true?"


regards





I can get that if you mix up qigongs or mix them around that is bad, but I don't see that different styles are at all different for me. I won't deviate in my qigong even if I did them all in a row, that is for sure. Seems they're all related, all work well togethor for me like they're all one, even though I've been told at times not to mix at all. ALso been told though wait 1 hour and that will be fine. I find that to be true

[backbreaker]

I have tried to include a picture from my website for you to view but I am not sure how to do it and not very computer savvy but if you want you can see a high level skill, my shrfu is putting qi into my leg and I am inserting a 9 inch steel wire through my quatrcept muscle. I have done this through many parts of my body in the view of western doctors without any pain or bleeding. this connot be explained in western medicine and astounds the people who watch.
I have performed this on television and also asked other people to try it who thought it was a trick or that I could withstand pain.

They cannot however explain that the insertion does not bleed one drop, again unexplained in the medical field. please feel free to view or if someone knows how to paste the picture its at www.kungfuusa.net second picture in the masters catagory under the photos button. ED [/B][/QUOTE]


Are you saying if you practiced a new style it would hinder those skills or cancel them out? That would seem weird to me, I have never had a qigong do that at all. Congratulations on acheiving some high level skill

[David Jamieson]

backbreaker, it is evident that you do not understand what has been said to you in this post, or you are just playing around acting dumb and wasting peoples time with your repeated questions, all of which have been answered and now you are repeating the same questions.

Go learn qigong from a practitioner. Ask them questions about what the gongs do, where they come from how they work, how they can be countered.

You must put forth a greater effort than coming to a kungfu forum and antagonizing those who have already answered your questions.

Show us how smart you really are in other words.

cheers

[backbreaker]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
backbreaker, it is evident that you do not understand what has been said to you in this post, or you are just playing around acting dumb and wasting peoples time with your repeated questions, all of which have been answered and now you are repeating the same questions.

bb:How are qigongs that are the same with the same goal and same priciples contradictory? WHere was this explained? This does not make sense although every master just says it. How can it be? Different forms in the same style are not contradictory, so why would it be different in another style? How could it be?

Go learn qigong from a practitioner. Ask them questions about what the gongs do, where they come from how they work, how they can be countered.

BB:He used to say only do his style. Now he says they are all similar. Invisible acupuncture needle is the same regardless of teacher or style for example. All the same

You must put forth a greater effort than coming to a kungfu forum and antagonizing those who have already answered your questions.

How am I antagonizing. I'm just saying stuff.

Show us how smart you really are in other words.


They are all the same. Who has explained that this is not so?
cheers

[David Jamieson]

backbreaker, you have shown that you don't understand and are incapable of understanding.

so, you needn't ask. You are not going to get serious answers to your "questions" out of an internet forum anyway, so why bother?

you must learn by doing and you must be taught to start doing.

You so far haven't been taught anything and you seem to have not really learned anything.

You are clearly just prodding about because of your own lack of understanding.

Nobody likes to be thought of as dim afterall, I understand your confusion about qigong, what I don't understand is your unwillingness to actually pursue a study in it while instead you come here and repeat the same questions over and over again even though you have been answered several times already.

If you have a mental disability then I apologize for any disparaging remarks I have made explicitly or implied.

-o\_

[backbreaker]

You clearly do lame ***** styles. Where have my questions been answered? How are different qigong styles different. How can that be? Every master says do only theri style, where was it explained here. I have learned wild goose qigong and Damo gong for 6 years and they are not contradictory, they are all the same, what is not true about that? How are qigongs not compatible? How does that make sense?

[David Jamieson]

Is it the water in your town?? lol

I thought you learn omei and kunlun? now it's damo and wild goose? and where did you learn the wild goose? I would like to know that because it would have been quite clearly explained to you in regards of compatibility/ non-compatibility ergo you are lying about it and are just yanking our chains. lol

:rolleyes:

[backbreaker]

Yeah, I do KUNLUN DAYAN WILD GOOSE, for 6 years. As far as I have learned, there is no contradiction if the qigong is real

It is not my intention to aggravate anybody, especially knowlegable people. But this is actually an issue I have thought alot about before. Many masters say only do one complete style at a time, but my conclusion from what i have done and learned is that it is not as clear cut at all as the labels people assign would suggest. Maybe there can be contradictions at high level though, but why, and how can that be? The main answer I got was that, at high level they contradict. I still will wonder about how that can be, seeing they are based on the same principles and are related

[blooming lotus]

the point here is that while it's important to cultivate your own mind, when you ask a question to the learned as someone not so much so, you need to either accept your answers or direct your questions elsewhere....tell me kunlun gong is similar to falun no? I beg to differ that its practice and Omei styled breathing and even meditation are so similar ...... perhaps if you do as Kunglek suggested and find yourself a good qigong teacher, they will be happy to tell you why that is ;) :cool:

[backbreaker]

Bl- the falun conjoined hand meditation posture is in many of those, you can see it for a second the posture in some of those forms before it is seperated into yin and yang. Energy orbit is exactly the same in all qigongs I have learned, but some use the mind some use other methods, but I see them as the same thing, that is why I am confused as to why higher levels would be so specialised and contradictory, I'm not trying to flame this thread, it just seems a common foundation . There is a Yoga with the same hand changing postures as falun gong. They all must be one system. Palm changing is in everything, how would it be contradictory? How should it not be the same? Exactly the same. Taijiquan seems to be an integrated practice, there would be no contradictions adding "internal" to a martial art that I could see.

From what I gather from this thread, I have been told that at advanced levels they are so specialized that they could cause each other to cancel each other out or go wrong. I accept that and actually did before I came here. But there is also an issue of integrated systems and all based on the same principles and and even purposes no?. They exsist right? But are skills found only in one style, if they are in other styles how would the practice be contradictory? How is it that at higher levels the practices are contradictory but based on the same principles?
Fine, don't answer if you think I am prodding or harassing you. What's with this whole flame?

If the skills are unexplanable by most people, if you don't mind me asking what is the explanation ?

[blooming lotus]

dude..this is where it becomes a serious head-trip, and sorry to break it to you, bit you're gonna have to either get yourself a teacher or ride it out alone...falun is tricky when your stacking it against other cultivation methods...it's a personal trip, and when enlightenment etc is part of that superimposed to your martial practice....it's all you baby..but you're right...alot of different internal arts share postures and positions...still their means and and ends are different...


what I will give you though, is that, being that you're aware of falun gong and similar cultivation techniques...there's a serious ..I think "power" would be the wrong word, but a serious means to great iron skills in this..I dunno...that's all you're getting, cause I dont wanna thnk that much ...:D