You know what písses me off?

[IronFist]

When teachers have you do exercises in class. Now, I have no problem with doing a few exercises as a warmup or whatever, that's fine. But when they have you do pushups or Hindu squats or situps or whatever. Wtf is that ****? I'm not in your class to do pushups. I'm in it to learn how to fight. I know conditioning is part of being able to fight, but doing pushups does not teach you technique.

And say someone in the class was a weight lifter or something. HAVING to do tons of sets of pushups or squats or some exercise could mess up your weight routine. That's bull****.

Now, I know that maybe that might be the only time some people have to exercise, but it should be optional.

Now, my class is awesome and never makes you exercise like this (knock on wood), but once I was in a class that did that and it ****ed me off. I chose not to participate and they're like "come on, you gotta do this" and I'm like "uh, when you can deadlift more than me, then I'll follow your exercise program."

[blooming lotus]

I understand your beef but you gotta understand, that alot of students out there AREN'T as committed or diligent as yourself and I guess this is just the teachers' way of making sure they're up for the job...besides, that's just another good way for teachers to get folks to sign up for private lessons...sufis gotta make a living to..ya know :D

[scotty1]

I know what you mean Iron. Classes like that are a good place to learn some exercises when you first take up MA, but class time shouldn't really be spent doing them. It does seem like a waste of time.

But BL has a point that its the only exercises most students get lol. But then again, that's really not the serious students problem and maybe they should find another class.

In my own class strengthening exrecises are done at home, and not in class, apart from occasionally they might be sprung just to see if people have been doing them.

[blooming lotus]

I am committed to both my health and fitness above anything, so lets just get that clear, but dude...begginners have a place in class as well...remember, one day you were one yourself

[IronFist]

But BL has a point that its the only exercises most students get lol

I kinda made that point in my post, see?


Now, I know that maybe that might be the only time some people have to exercise, but it should be optional.


So yeah, they should be optional.

[Losttrak]

I used to think the same way you did when I went to class. However after I began teaching, I realized that I have to train for the lowest common denominator. If you dont then eventually the students get to a wall where they cannot proceed until they develop more physically. Now THAT is a pain.

[IronFist]

Yeah, I kinda understand why some teachers do it. I just think it should be optional.

[scotty1]

I think you've misunderstood what I mean, where did I mention beginners? I am one now.

But you've got to differentiate between a class where people turn up for exercise so don't mind the lack of actual training, and a class where people turn up to train and look after themselves on their own time.

They're directed towards different people with different aims, and I'm just saying that if you find yourself in the wrong one then its going to be frustrating.

If you're busy and can't be bothered to exercise outside of class and you need the class time to make you do something physical, then a class where there's no exercise but loads of two man drills etc. is going to be frustrating.

On the other hand, well I think Ironfist summed it up for the other camp. Where's that arrow up symbol?

:)

[stimulant]

we never do sit-up or push ups in class, when we ask shifu why he simply replied.......

'why?? you will never use them in a fight!' (translated form mandarin)

all of our training is form conditioning drills, tan tui (the best ever devised exercise program!!!), and forms (ouch on the legs!).


I think press ups and sit ups etc have their place in certain styles, and even in all styles if you're a regualr competitor in fighting, but all in all you can train the muscles more specifically for what you are trying to achieve.

[Ford Prefect]

I hear ya, bro. I just slack off during the exercises. I get plenty of conditioning on my own time and it is kind of like throwing money in the trash when class time is wasted on that.

[Water Dragon]

No offense Iron Fist, but my Shuai Chiao class, Muay Thai class, AND BJJ class would all beat you up and throw you out of the school with an attitude like that.

[Ray Pina]

Iron I'm with you. Beginner or advanced, they're paying good money to learn martial arts. One can do jumping jacks and sit ups at home. If they don't have the discipline to do that, take their tuition now because they won't be there long anyway.

Funny, some students complained about lack of conditioning the other day. My teacher just said, "This isn't the school for you then. You can do that at home."

But more importantly, how much can you condition? If you're 140lbs., how can you condition yourself to beat the athletic 250lbs guy? Good luck! You better learn some tricks, or techniques as we call them.

[scotty1]

Waterdragon how much % of class time is taken up with conditioning? Is it style specific or just push ups and stuff?

[Knifefighter]

IronFist,
You are exactly right. Spending time in class (other than warming up) doing basic conditioning drills is a waste of your time and money if you are there to learn martial arts.

[norther practitioner]

This is where a lot of people go to work out, so... go figure..

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by norther practitioner
This is where a lot of people go to work out, so... go figure..
Most martial arts teachers are pretty clueless about proper conditioning methods. Doing conditioning in their classes and expecting to get much benefit is about the same as going to the gym and doing tae bo thinking you are learning how to fight.

[norther practitioner]

I wouldn't argue against that really, but I know a lot of people who do martial arts as a "workout" and do expect to be worked out.. I do get a good workout at class, but that is usually through doing forms work and sparring and whatnot. I don't think it should be someones only form of coditioning, but for a lot of people that is there reality, somewhat unfortunately.

[Gangsterfist]

We have different classes on different days with our sifu. On sundays, class is extended by 90 minutes for a work out. You can show up 90 min early and work out and then attend class, or you can just show up for class. Its your choice and there is no extra charge. The rest of the week we stretch and warm up and then just do kung fu with no work out. I work out again on my own.

The work out day is really for the simple fact of our sihings and sifu teaching us new work out techniques that we can practice on our own at home. So every sunday I may learn a new work out exercise or two I can practice on my own later on. I think its totally worth it.

[norther practitioner]

I like that idea that GFs school uses....

[MasterKiller]

Most people don't wipe their @sses correctly. Most people don't know the capital of Texas. Most people can't do a handstand. Most people can't breathe underwater. Most people can't speak Tongan. Most people need a haircut. Most people need to lighten up and quit player hatin'.....

[Water Dragon]

Here's a question:

Do you go to class to learn Martial Arts, or do you go to class to train Martial Arts?

Big difference between the two.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
I hear ya, bro. I just slack off during the exercises. I get plenty of conditioning on my own time and it is kind of like throwing money in the trash when class time is wasted on that.
I hate to say it ford,. but that attitude seriously p*sses me off....I guess I'm the kinda person who takes pride in EVERYTHING I do (even when I'm hatin it)! It is so hard to stay motivated around people like that, and I have even in the past left classes for similar reasons...I dont wanna be the only one there putting in, I don't wanna see my teacher "allowing" slackers and if I am the only one there giving my 100%, you can guarantee you'll loose my respect...if you don't like the syllabus, go somewhere else, sometimes to get the good, you gotta also wade through the crap....

sorry dude, dissappointed to hear you say that

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
No offense Iron Fist, but my Shuai Chiao class, Muay Thai class, AND BJJ class would all beat you up and throw you out of the school with an attitude like that.

Well, aren't you guys tough :rolleyes:

Seriously, tho. What if the person was a competitive powerlifter or bodybuilder who went to martial arts class *gasp* for FUN? Why should they jeopardize screwing up the training routine for their main sport (PL or BB) just because that's what the class is doing?

[IronFist]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
Funny, some students complained about lack of conditioning the other day. My teacher just said, "This isn't the school for you then. You can do that at home."

Hell yeah! Your teacher is awesome :D

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by IronFist


Well, aren't you guys tough :rolleyes:

Seriously, tho. What if the person was a competitive powerlifter or bodybuilder who went to martial arts class *gasp* for FUN? Why should they jeopardize screwing up the training routine for their main sport (PL or BB) just because that's what the class is doing? Then go to a different school if it's only for fun.

You do the workout everyone else is doing, or you don't work out at all. Unless you're injured, you ain't special. Especially if your a noob in the class.

Why should you expect to learn as much as everyone else if you aren't willing to participate in the regular exercises?

[blooming lotus]

ditto...because your a part of the class unit and if that's what the class is doing, then that's what the class is doing, and ef's right, if you don't like it don't come..or take some private classes

[Gangsterfist]

The only time sifu makes us do exercise, when its not a work out day is when someone says the phrase, "I can't." Once sifu hears you say that you automatically get to do 100 push ups.

I think that certain days of the week should be work out days and then kung fu, and others should be just kung fu. Strength, conditioning, endurance, and flexability are all really important and really aid your kung fu. However, they are not needed. I know sifu's who smoke and drink every day and could still whipe the floor with me. So it really depends on the individual, and on what the individual wants to put into their own art.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Then go to a different school if it's only for fun.


Um, no. What if every other school sucks? What if there's 100 McDojos and only one ____ style school and that's the style you want to learn, but by fully participating in the class (ie. exercising) you'd be messing up something else in your life? Exactly.


You do the workout everyone else is doing, or you don't work out at all. Unless you're injured, you ain't special. Especially if your a noob in the class.

I've been a noob and still been in better shape than most people in the class. Did you mean a noob to exercise as well?


Why should you expect to learn as much as everyone else if you aren't willing to participate in the regular exercises?

Because things like doing pushups have nothing to do with learning or applying technique. Yes, your ability to perform a technique may likely be improved because of the strength you develop from doing pushups, but not doing pushups in class doesn't help OR hurt your ability to LEARN in that class.

[Ford Prefect]

BL,

If you need to feed off other people to get the motivation to push yourself, then I feel very bad for you. I'm already in better condition than almost everybody I train with, and I push myself to the limits in all my activities. I'm always playing a precarious balancing act between being in peak condition and overtraining, so I'll be ****ed if I'm going to bust my butt to do some bad routine that the teacher came up with for the day. Like Knifefighter said, most MA teachers know nothing about conditioning methods.

I go hard in the ring. I go hard on the mat. I go hard on the mountain. I go hard on the trails. I go hard on the court. I go hard on the cliffs. I go hard in the gym. I go hard in the water. Forgive me if I lighten up a bit in the little 10-15 minute "conditioning" routine. You should stop paying attention to others and just worry about yourself.

[blooming lotus]

if you can't respect your teacher, and the class plan,then you shouldn't be there...as for getting my motivation from other people...that's just freakin rediculous and I'm sure you know that's not true... I often prefer to workout alone, and I have the same overtraining vs ....what was that other thing you mentioned?? Dude, no offence or judgement but if I'm there ..I just wanna work

[IronFist]

BL - so people should do the exercises just because that's what the class is doing for the sake of being "part of the class?" What if there's a competitive powerlifter in the class who has a meet in one week and doing the class' exercises for the day would mess up his cycle?

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by IronFist Um, no. What if every other school sucks? What if there's 100 McDojos and only one ____ style school and that's the style you want to learn, but by fully participating in the class (ie. exercising) you'd be messing up something else in your life? Exactly.Then you make a choice. What's more important...learning the style or whining about a few situps?


I've been a noob and still been in better shape than most people in the class. Did you mean a noob to exercise as well?Noob to the class. No one likes it when the new kid thinks he knows everything.


Because things like doing pushups have nothing to do with learning or applying technique. Yes, your ability to perform a technique may likely be improved because of the strength you develop from doing pushups, but not doing pushups in class doesn't help OR hurt your ability to LEARN in that class. [/B] Would you get pizzed if the teacher taught something to everyone else BUT you? The class is group, and trains as a group....if you don't like it, take private lessons and quit whining.

Why should the teacher bend his curriculum around you? What makes you so special?

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
BI'm always playing a precarious balancing act between being in peak condition and overtraining, so I'll be ****ed if I'm going to bust my butt to do some bad routine that the teacher came up with for the day. Like Knifefighter said, most MA teachers know nothing about conditioning methods.


Yes.

[joedoe]

IronFist, are you talking about calisthenic type exercises that you object to, or all strength/endurance training exercises? Does this include partnered power training? And what if the exercises you are doing are actually part of the training methodology of the art(granted, push ups are unlikely to fall into this category)?

[IronFist]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Then you make a choice. What's more important...learning the style or whining about a few situps?

Noob to the class. No one likes it when the new kid thinks he knows everything.

That's bull****. (No offence). Once, while being asked why I wasn't doing some "calisthenic" in my school's MMA club I asked an instructor how many one armed pullups he could do? So as for knowing everything... I suck ass at fighting, but I'm confident that I know more than 98% of people out there when it comes to physiology and exercise, and I'm confident that I know more than 99.9% of MA instructors out there when it comes to physiology and exercise.

So if no one likes it when the new kid thinks he knows everything, then the guy who knows a lot REALLY hates it when he's made to do some bull**** exercise.


Would you get pizzed if the teacher taught something to everyone else BUT you? The class is group, and trains as a group....if you don't like it, take private lessons and quit whining.

Yeah, that would **** me off. But no one has yet to point out how doing exercises with the class helps you learn techniques.

Also, what ever happened to "absorb what is useful?"

If someone knows a lot about fighting, but doesn't know crap about exercise, why would I listen to EVERYTHING they have to say? All I would be interested in is what they know about fighting.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by joedoe
IronFist, are you talking about calisthenic type exercises that you object to, or all strength/endurance training exercises? Does this include partnered power training? And what if the exercises you are doing are actually part of the training methodology of the art(granted, push ups are unlikely to fall into this category)?

I'm talking about any exercises that would otherwise impede on an individual's own exercise program.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by IronFist
That's bull****. (No offence). Once, while being asked why I wasn't doing some "calisthenic" in my school's MMA club I asked an instructor how many one armed pullups he could do? You would have been asked to leave my school.


So as for knowing everything... I suck ass at fighting, but I'm confident that I know more than 98% of people out there when it comes to physiology and exercise, and I'm confident that I know more than 99.9% of MA instructors out there when it comes to physiology and exercise.So open a gym and preach to them. When you enter a school to learn something, you STFU and listen to what they have to say while you are there. Otherwise, go somewhere else. Really, that's no different than me going into a BJJ school and demanding to learn ONLY how to avoid a shoot. They'd laugh me out of the place. After they broke my arm.


Yeah, that would **** me off. But no one has yet to point out how doing exercises with the class helps you learn techniques.Since when does the student get to selectively learn what THEY deem useful? Especially a noob in class such as yourself?


Also, what ever happened to "absorb what is useful?"Whatever happened to just STFU and training?


If someone knows a lot about fighting, but doesn't know crap about exercise, why would I listen to EVERYTHING they have to say? All I would be interested in is what they know about fighting. Why should they teach you what they know about fighting if you aren't going to participate in class?

[Gangsterfist]

You should feel lucky that you only do situps and push ups. We have to fight full contact with no pads over a pit of cobras. Then behind the cobras is a moat filled with sharks and someone always adds a drop of human blood in the shark moat (those b@stards!) So if you get knocked out of the ring you have to jump through a bunch of cobras, and then swim through a moat of blood thirsty sharks. And you are still complaining about doing some push ups and sit ups. Man I would trade you any day.


The truth is there are reasons beyond physical fitness you train for in your kwoon. For one it helps balance the strength of the group. You are suppose to help your kung fu brothers/sisters and they are suppose to be considered a second family. Also, doing work outs as a group builds up that whole work as a group ethic. One thing I hate is the student who thinks that they are the SHIZNIT, and constantly corrects everyone and talks down to them, and does not give proper insight to better themselves. There are elitest jerks out there that will try to one up you.

Also, look at it from the sifu's point of view. If you are not willing to participate in class on some basic physical exercises who is to say you will give your 100% when he trains you in kung fu. I know a sifu who teaches for free, as long as you do the work out. This way the sifu can weed out the slackers and teach the people dedicated enough to fully learn the system.

If you have a problem with that, then find another teacher. Sorry to be so blunt, but thats how it goes.

[blooming lotus]

..........did I mention I speak good tongan?


just kidding...at the end of the day, everyone has there own workout objectives and goals, and I feel you iron, I do, but if you were in my class, you'd bug me , and if I were your teacher, I might take offence....it's your wude dude, and I'm not about to tell you how to manage it...but I wouldn't want to train with you in my kungfu class .......

[joedoe]

Originally posted by IronFist


I'm talking about any exercises that would otherwise impede on an individual's own exercise program.

Well, I guess it is your choice. If you feel that what they ask you to do is detrimental to your larger goals then you always have the option of not attending. Otherwise, if you want to learn from them then you probably should follow their instruction. Again, if you disagree, then you are not being forced to continue classes.

In a way I agree with you - doing stuff like push ups and sit ups in class is pretty pointless. I know that in my school, we do a lot of strength training that is part of the training methodology of the art (and I think is fairly unique to our art) and is focused to train up various attributes the art considers important. Now if you were to come into our school and refuse to do those exercises, then I think that eventually you would be asked to leave.

To a certain degree, it is another case of emptying your cup :)

[Ford Prefect]

BL,

So what's with this then?

"It is so hard to stay motivated around people like that, and I have even in the past left classes for similar reasons.."

If you can't bust your butt because somebody else is slagging a little, then I feel bad for you. It's not like I'm standing around doing nothing anyway. I'm doing the exercises and keeping up with the class, but I'm not pushing it. I respect my teacher for his vast experience in martial arts and the fact that he can and has beaten me hard. However his beating me has nothing to do with his conditioning. I'm certain that I could out run, jump, lift, push-ups, etc him. his beating me has to do with his experince fighting and training technique, which is what I'm there to do.

I just think it's BS to have "conditioning" as part of class unless there is competition in mind. After all, every competition format imposed different demands that you have to get used to. In Judo, we condition with Judo-like drills. In boxing, the same. In wrestling, the same... etc etc For a regular class, it is a waste of class time in terms of learning through drills and fighting. It's also a waste of my money, since I'm going there to learn to fight, not do push-ups. I already pay money for a gym membership and my own equipment. I don't expect to pay money for martial arts instruction and get a 1/2 gym - 1/2 martial arts membership instead.

I'm not going to bust my butt doing some silly exercise and overtrain or get injured causing myself to stop going to the gym, running, swimming, mountain biking, snow boarding, bouldering, fighting, playing basketball, playing tennis,... If that happens, I'm going to make sure it happens doing something I actually want to do.

[Indestructible]

Maybe they use the calisthenics to weed out the complainers and crybabies. Sounds like it's working.

[Gangsterfist]

Ironfist, what styles and systems do you train in if you don't mind me asking?

[blooming lotus]

I'm not disaggreeing with either you or Iron's point that its uneccessary BS for the over-achieving fitness enthusiast, but If you were my student and I knew what you were capable of and saw you putting in less than that, eventually it would become an issue between us...Chuck norris tells a very similar story in his book...just do what the moment calls for...the best you can...again no judgement.:cool:

[Gangsterfist]

This is totally off subject, but one of my high school professors back in the day was a black belt and competitor in karate tournies. He beat the snot out of chuck norris in a tourney. He has pictures of it and everything. He was about the same age as chuck I believe but was in his 40s when I was in high school and probably in or near his 50s now.

[blooming lotus]

:rolleyes: so the guy lost a fight....well glad we cleared that one up because personally if you hadn't mentioned it, I'm not sure if I would've slept again..... ever


that's very cool...glad you have that ;)

[Gangsterfist]

I'm not saying chuck is bad, its just everytime I see him now I picture our old english professor beating him up. Its kind of weird ya know. How would you picture chuck if you know your old high school professor beat him up once? Its just a funny mental picture thats all.

Everyone loses fights, you can't win them all. So that was not meant as a diss towards chuck, he is obviously good at what he does or he would not be on TV right?

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by IronFist


Well, aren't you guys tough :rolleyes:

Seriously, tho. What if the person was a competitive powerlifter or bodybuilder who went to martial arts class *gasp* for FUN? Why should they jeopardize screwing up the training routine for their main sport (PL or BB) just because that's what the class is doing?

I've seen a lot of big guys come in with that attitude. They always come in arrogant, always leave humbled, and rarely come back.

Here's how I look at it:

First, who are you to decide how our classes should be run? Did you ever stop and think that there is a reason we want your body to be tired before you start learning technique? You don't see the purpose in that?

Just the fact that you are speaking in terms of strength gains tells me you're missing the point. You don't do 150 lunges followed by a couple hundred bodyweight squats to build strength, you do it to build endurance. Big difference

If you have a good trainer, he should be able to teach you the correct way to exercise for MARTIAL ARTS. If he can't you may need to question what else he's messing up.

[red5angel]

I decided to post on page 4, after thinking about this for while.....

I think the exercising is ok. I exercise almost everyday on my own, but my fellow students don't, and if they don't then they don't get better, and if they don't get better, I won't get better. So I say make them sweat their asses off.

[rubthebuddha]

most of the time, i don't feel like i get to work out often enough, so i'm happy when one of my instructors makes us do a wee bit of extra work.

i really dunno what ironfist is complaining about. he doesn't have the endurance anyway. :eek:

IF -- go do some cardio! :D

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
You should feel lucky that you only do situps and push ups. We have to fight full contact with no pads over a pit of cobras. Then behind the cobras is a moat filled with sharks and someone always adds a drop of human blood in the shark moat (those b@stards!) So if you get knocked out of the ring you have to jump through a bunch of cobras, and then swim through a moat of blood thirsty sharks.

That's it? We do all that AND they have snipers shooting at us while we're fighting!

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
Ironfist, what styles and systems do you train in if you don't mind me asking?

Right now I go to a MMA school taught by one (sometimes two) SBGI (Straight Blast Gym International) guys. For people unfamiliar with the school, despite having the words "Straight Blast" in the name, it has nothing to do with Wing Chun. It's primarily Crazy Monkey standup fighting (similar to Mike Tyson's peek-a-boo style boxing) and then an assortment of clinch and ground fighting stuff, but I assume it's primarily BJJ.

We spend 10-15 minutes doing our own warmup (people can stretch, or do pushups, or roll around, or do whatever they want to warm up) and then we start class. There's no exercising or calisthenics or anything in there (at least there hasn't been any, yet).

I love my school. Not to jump on the MMA bandwagon, but I'm completely done with "traditional" arts.

On that same token, and absolutely no offence to anyone here, but all the people who seem to be disagreeing with me on this issue seem to have a traditional MA school mindset. I could be wrong, but that's how it seems. The "Sifu knows best" mindset may have worked 1000 years ago in China, but not anymore, and not in America.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by rubthebuddha
i really dunno what ironfist is complaining about. he doesn't have the endurance anyway. :eek:

IF -- go do some cardio! :D

rofl!

[Viper555]

"You would have been asked to leave my school. "

You would ask him to leave your school because your lack of knowledge on exercise has lead you to get little results with your physical fitness?

Personally I feel that the school shouldn't make you do workouts like that in class. I think that a good approach would be to show the beginning student some workouts they could do at home and every so often have a physical fitness test to make sure nobody is slacking off. They could also set off a 15 minute period before class starts where everyone that wants to can go through a workout with the instructors.

WD:You don't seem to understand what IF is saying here. He's not saying that the exercises they are doing are below him and that he can't get any stronger off of them he's saying that they conflict with his routine at home. I'm not sure if you realise this of not but doing cardio or BW stuff for endurance can affect muscle hypertrophy. If you were a bodybuilder this would cause a problem. That was his point. Next time make sure you understand what someone is saying before you critisize them.

[Toby]

Iron, I'm usually on your side in fitness arguments, but **** you! :D You do what the teacher says, no arguments. Arguing with the instructor, or saying that you're better at certain fitness stuff is a sure-fire way to get kicked out of class. Purely to do with respect. You respect what the seniors say, and do it. You should find the exercises easy enough, anyway. When you become a bit more senior, you'd then be able to talk fitness with the seniors and bring your ideas in. Won't take too long. My seniors listen to what I have to say about stuff, and I've only been training a short while. I appreciate that you know what you're talking about, but imagine what a headache for the instructors if they had to cater to noobs every week that had a "better" idea about what to do for warmup, or if everyone wanted to do something else. Another example - we've got some guys who work customer service and risk the occasional facial injury. I know of at least one guy who left with a black eye and he works front desk at a hotel. What if they said "we don't want to do x techniques today in case we hurt our faces". Then maybe MA isn't for them.

As to the competitive powerlifter or bodybuilder comment, hopefully they wouldn't be attending class shortly before competition anyway. There are far more hazardous risks in class than overtraining in warmups (i.e. injury).

View the warmups as good GPP. My warmups do impact on my PTP cycles sometimes, but hey, that's life. I do them, and do them to the best of my ability. If I had the time and money, I'd never lift weights again for the chance to train full-time closed door MA. Better fitness methods? Maybe, maybe not. But I'd rather have elite skills over elite attributes. Of course, I'll never have either unless I (a) win Lotto or (b) take vitamin S, so it's a moot point :p.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Viper555
"WD:You don't seem to understand what IF is saying here. .

No, I understand quite well. I just disagree.

[Viper555]

My bad then, it just seemed like you didn't know what he was talking about.

[IronFist]

Alright, just for the record even tho I've said it before, I don't even have this problem in my class. I'm just saying that I know some classes are like that.

Ok, now on to people's comments.

Toby said:

You do what the teacher says, no arguments.

Like I said, I don't really follow the "Sifu is always right" idea.


Arguing with the instructor, or saying that you're better at certain fitness stuff is a sure-fire way to get kicked out of class. Purely to do with respect. You respect what the seniors say, and do it.

Not if they're wrong. I haven't spent years of my life studying exercise only to go do things the wrong way because someone who has been going there longer than me says to. Look around you every day. How often do you get wrong, or incorrect "advice" from people? I get bad advice at LEAST once a day from someone. Seniority means nothing when it comes to knowledge.


As to the competitive powerlifter or bodybuilder comment, hopefully they wouldn't be attending class shortly before competition anyway. There are far more hazardous risks in class than overtraining in warmups (i.e. injury).

Yeah, hopefully they wouldn't, you're right. But some people are just martial art nuts :D

Take tonight in my class, for example. All we did pretty much was 5 minute rounds of drills. I was freaking tired as hell because (as rtb likes to point out :p ), cardio owns me. This is fine, tho. It was part of the training. I'm not saying people shouldn't get a good workout in class, especially as it's PART of the training. In other words, it's hard to train for 5 minute rounds without actually doing 5 minute rounds. So it's all good. I actually like training that way.

But if before class or after or something the instructor had been like "ok, everyone does 50 situps and 50 pushups and 50 Hindu squats," that would have been dumb. It's extraneous, and completely not necessary to the content of the class. I'm not saying the people in the class wouldn't benefit from it, I'm just saying it's not NECESSARY.

[Xebsball]

Brother of metal (IronFist) and Knifefighter are correct

[blooming lotus]

so you're talking hypothetically??

:rolleyes:

well ok then....

a martial arts class, school or teacher that caters to your every training need and objective is often a very hard thing to find..but like Shi Xing Hao has said, the most important....

I have no doubt you have more than a good idea of what your after and I'm not uneducated myself ....often had the same problem...

what it comes down to though, is you either bite the bullet, and except what's being offered, or you go elsewhere...that's not saying the teacher is always right, 'cause we both know that's Bs....but It's their class and it's a matter of respect...you can't just walk intheir and go dude..now we're doing it this way...you know...

.for me that has meant going from australia to NZ back to Australia, to china, aus, and back to china..and Iron, man, you know my plan from there...It may not be feasible for everyone but if it's a matter of priorty it just is...so shut the f*ck up and training ( at least until you have enough seniority to justify b*tching), or find a school that has what your after...dude....maybe the student with this drama is just at the wrong school ;)

[Toby]

You've gotta look at it from the teacher's perspective Iron. We've got a pretty big turnover of new students. Say 20-30 or more in the last 12 months have come (and some gone). What if each one had their own ideas of fitness that all conflicted? How would the MA instructor know who to listen to? Studying up on fitness stuff isn't their business. Neither is sifting through noobs advice to find the gold. IMO, doing dozens of pushups and situps etc isn't a bad thing for me (although as I said it can impact my PTP - there's always the next cycle), but most importantly it takes care of providing a base level of fitness for the lowest common denominator people. Which is a good thing.

Talk to some of the other people in your class. Most of my classmates have no idea about lifting iron. They probably benefit heaps from warmups. Some of my classmates do know lifting, and they know their stuff pretty well. Some of the seniors don't, but they don't discourage me from lifting either.

As to the whole "sifu says" thing, well, I guess I came across as advocating that. I don't blindly listen, but I do listen. Lots of gold there. Maybe not powerlifting gold, but MA gold, which is why I go there. I want to learn to fight, and regardless of whether I can lift heaps or not, I can't even come close to competing with some of the seniors. I suck up whatever they say like a sponge. If I wanted powerlifting advice, I'd go to a respected gym.

One more point - you keep saying that you don't like the idea of wrong fitness advice from class. Nothing I've heard is wrong. It might conflict with my fitness goals, but it's not wrong. As you know, I'm into strength before endurance like you so MA warmup doesn't help my strength goals. But it doesn't majorly hurt them, either. I would voice my concerns if we did do something that I thought might hurt me, like a bad stretch or air punching with weights, etc. But I certainly wouldn't speak up in class. I'd go afterwards and voice them privately.

Last point - what if you train for a few years at a particular place with your current strength focus. You become a senior, start them doing Jandas and pistols for warmups. Then, a new guy arrives who has a whole different outlook, purely endurance based and BWE. What if he came up to you and said, "Hey, you're doing it wrong. I don't want to do this, it'll interfere with my Scrapper's workout tomorrow. I'm just gunna sit on the side while the rest of you warmup, then I'll join in.".

Suck it up, son! :D Down for 100 pushups!

[scotty1]

I agree with BL. I don't see the sense in doing *too much* exercise in class, but I wouldn't refuse to do it, and I certainly wouldn't ask my instructor a cheeky question along the lines of "how many one-armed pushups can you do?"

I would say either go to the class and do what the class does or go somewhere else...

Unless its informal and the teacher's happy for you to do what you want, but I still wouldn't approach it in a "uh, what would I want to do THAT for?" way.

Like Toby said, got to at least show respect.

[IronFist]

Like I said on the first page, the answer is easy: make in class exercising optional.

[Toby]

^ Not easy at all. Too divisive. I can see lots of problems with it.

scotty1 summed it up well.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by IronFist
When teachers have you do exercises in class. Now, I have no problem with doing a few exercises as a warmup or whatever, that's fine. But when they have you do pushups or Hindu squats or situps or whatever. Wtf is that ****? I'm not in your class to do pushups. I'm in it to learn how to fight. I know conditioning is part of being able to fight, but doing pushups does not teach you technique.

And say someone in the class was a weight lifter or something. HAVING to do tons of sets of pushups or squats or some exercise could mess up your weight routine. That's bull****.

Now, I know that maybe that might be the only time some people have to exercise, but it should be optional.

Now, my class is awesome and never makes you exercise like this (knock on wood), but once I was in a class that did that and it ****ed me off. I chose not to participate and they're like "come on, you gotta do this" and I'm like "uh, when you can deadlift more than me, then I'll follow your exercise program."

That's part of the training dude... our school, for example, is getting ready for some big competitions. consequently, we are spending much of our time conditioning right now. the whole class is pretty much calisthenics, drilling techniques we arlready know and rolling. we're in pre fight mode.

[scotty1]

yeah WD had a good point about getting you tired for a reason.

[David Jamieson]

wel, if you don't like the way the class is going and you don't feel it's for you, then most certainly you are free to leave.

why complain about it? just leave, go somewhere else or shop around for what you want.

most martial arts classes have a warm up. sometimes the warmup consists of regular cal exercises.

sometimes warm up can run 15 mins, sometimes longer.

It's no big deal.

Besides, if you wanna make your own model, then go make your own model. What's teh point of getting down on someone else deal? It's their school, they will establish the model as tehy see fit. If it doesn't work for you, then leave. simple.

cheers

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by IronFist
Like I said on the first page, the answer is easy: make in class exercising optional. Then open your own school and do that. Just because you are there for "fun" doesn't mean you make the rules. In fact, I would say especially because this isn't your primary training focus you should just STFU. Get over yourself. Just don't attend class when it interferes with your "cycle." Your non-particpation is a distraction others there don't need and probably won't appreciate. You have yet to prove how the exercise is wrong for anyone besides yourself...so you seem to be the point of contention, not the program itself.

[IronFist]

SevenStar, our school is getting ready for some competitions, too. I think both our instructors are fighting (I know for sure that one is) and some other guy in our class is, too. March must be fight month or something.

[Ford Prefect]

If MA schools aren't businesses then there shouldn't be a price for class. It's not like the teacher is there handing you his knowledge because you've proven worthy; he's there making money because you, the customer, are paying for instruction. If I pay for martial arts instruction, then I expect to be intructed in martial arts. If I pay for a yoga class, I don't expect a 20 minute jog to start class. If I pay for a physics class, I don't expect 20 minutes of remedial math before each class. If I pay for a snow boarding lesson, I don't expect it to have 20 minutes of hindu squats to start. Etc etc. Why is it acceptable with MA?


Unless you are tourney prepping, there really isn't a reason to have it unless it's art specific. In Judo we'd drill breakfalls and throw entries until we died. No problem. It's a competition style AND the drills were specific to the art. If it's just random calesthenics, then it's BS. Carry over is highly questionable, so why waste the time? I'm definately no "master" but I can think of countless ways to actively condition and train technique at the same time. If it's just a regular class, I don't see what 20 minutes of calesthenics is going to do for anybody in the long term. If it could, I doubt they'd be taking martial arts because they'd be more inclined to eat bon-bon's and have pizza delivered while they watched Survivor.

In the end, everybody is there for different reasons. Not everybody takes martial arts as some lifelong dedication or treat it as some lifestyle. It's actually funny because I've seen similar attitudes towards similar things from other hard-core [Insert activity here - snowboard, rock-climb, etc] lifers. Just go out. Enjoy what you do. Don't pay so much attention to other people. You'll be a lot happier.

[MasterKiller]

Whether or not you think you are getting what you paid for, if the rest of the class is required to do something, you should be doing it is as well. If your issue is with the curriculum, take it up with the instructor in private. If you can't come to an agreement, then move on. Pretty simple, and it beats the hell out of whining.

[Chang Style Novice]

Suck it up - if you were boss, they'd do things your way. You ain't boss, so do things boss' way.

Get mad and leave if you want. Who loses? You.

edit - or put another way, MK is correct and I didn't need to post this at all.

[Ford Prefect]

Not whining at all. Just stating the case. You are the guys getting all bent out of shape. I doubt Iron is sitting off to the side. I know I don't. I just don't bust my butt putting out. Like you said, he's the boss, so I do it. Doesn't mean I can't think that it's silly and useless.

Maybe I should train kung fu. After all, there is more to it than fighting right? Maybe after years of training, I can get so easily rattled that I started saying "STFU" and calling people names over the internet while still being tapped by a guy who's been training BJJ for 6 months. :D

[Ford Prefect]

:D = humor, btw. Just wanted to pre-empt any strokes.

[rubthebuddha]

three months of middle school wrestling, ford. get it right. :mad:

[Gangsterfist]

sifu says:

"Kung fu is like pushing a boulder upstream a river everyday. Its long, hard work, and if you take one day off the boulder gets pushed back 3 days from where you were."

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
[B]Not whining at all. Just stating the case. You are the guys getting all bent out of shape. I doubt Iron is sitting off to the side. I know I don't. I just don't bust my butt putting out. Like you said, he's the boss, so I do it. Doesn't mean I can't think that it's silly and useless. I'm referring more to IF's position than yours, FP. Smarting off to the instructors is bull**** from any angle you look at it. I have a feeling he is sitting out cuz it messes up his precious cycle.....


Maybe after years of training, I can get so easily rattled that I started saying "STFU" and calling people names over the internet while still being tapped by a guy who's been training BJJ for 6 months. :D Yeah...just like Boxers....and Muay Thai fighters....and Dog catchers.....and Milkmen....:rolleyes:

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
sifu says:

"Kung fu is like pushing a boulder upstream a river everyday. Its long, hard work, and if you take one day off the boulder gets pushed back 3 days from where you were."

exactly why as a noobie you need to respect that in your classmates and teacher....some of us are just there to work and no pressure but stfu already and let us get on with it:D

[IronFist]

The time I sat out and said I didn't want to do it was at my University's MMA club. That particular instructor was a student who had a bunch of BJJ experience. So, for all you traditional people, it's not like I told the mystic old Chinese man to f off or anything. I know that would offend everyone here. I also probably would have gotten hit with a chi blast if I had done that.

So, now that that's out of the way, I still think that calisthenics in class are stupid.

If we were spending a great deal of class time doing them, I would probably slack off.

[Vash]

Originally posted by IronFist
. . . calisthenics in class are stupid.

I whole-heartedly concur. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that stretching and general warmups should not be used to begin a class.

Now, let me quantify that with this: when working with beginners, these types of instruction should be mandatory, particulurly the stretches and warmups. This methodology is rather useful when classes are divided up into experience/skill levels (which, I think, the majority of classes should be).
However, style-specific exercises should be included within the technical framework (I'll throw this into the "duh" category.)

I had about four paragraph's worth of shpiel after this, but decided everyone else had said what needed to be said. So, let me be the one who just enflames everyone's colons with this:

"Martial arts class is not the place to learn to do a jumping jack, a pushup, or a dirty dog. It's the place to learn martial arts. If you disagree, you're a neo-Traditionalist, chi-blasting-out-yer-@$$, frog-thumping, unable-to-properly-structure-a-class-so-it-lasts-the-full-period mothertrucker."

And, for the record (just to draw the heat off of the physiology-knowledgeable IF and FP), I am firmly against culture retention in the martial arts when the classes are conducted by a non-native who is outside of the native land. Or something.

However, once I get all nice and certified to be a personal trainer (yay ISSA!) bet that I'm going to question the wisdom of using calisthenics at the beginning of a fine-motor-skill-requiring lesson when those calisthenics can tire the muscles out enough to impair the ability to perform said technical movements. Or something. I dunno. I'll get back to you in September.

[Shaolinlueb]

hindu squats and hindu pushups are for the real men LOL

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Vash


I whole-heartedly concur. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that stretching and general warmups should not be used to begin a class.




WHAT THE F??K!!! OF COURSE YOU SHOULDN'T START A FITNESS CLASSWITH NEITHER STRETCHES NOR WARMUPS...CAUSE THAT WOULD JUS BE STOOPID..RIGHT:rolleyes:





Now, let me quantify that with this: when working with beginners, these types of instruction should be mandatory, particulurly the stretches and warmups. This methodology is rather useful when classes are divided up into experience/skill levels (which, I think, the majority of classes should be).
However, style-specific exercises should be included within the technical framework (I'll throw this into the "duh" category.)



AHHA...WELL THERE YOU GO....



And, for the record (just to draw the heat off of the physiology-knowledgeable IF and FP), I am firmly against culture retention in the martial arts when the classes are conducted by a non-native who is outside of the native land. Or something.




OK...SO NOW WE'RE ADVOCATING FOR ATTEMPTED GENICIDE AND LOSS OF ART AND CULTURE FOREVER....ALL YOU FOREIGNERS....GO HOME..VASH SAYS THE GIGS UP




However, once I get all nice and certified to be a personal trainer (yay ISSA!).



OK...SO, WE'LL TALK THEN :rolleyes:

GOOD COMMENTS DUDE:eek:

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Shaolinlueb
hindu squats and hindu pushups are for the real men LOL

HMM.HMMM....




and wommin...:p ;)

[rubthebuddha]

wommin. noun. 1. a cross between a wombat and a wimmin. 2. a small, rodent-like creature only seen in female form that gets ****ed off when you want to watch sportscenter for the third time on a single sunday.

[blooming lotus]

haha....

you better believe it 'cause if that chanel changes for even a minute...we're gunna be pi*sed...


hold up...am I the only chick who actully LIKES to watch sport???





:confused: :D :D

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by IronFist
The time I sat out and said I didn't want to do it was at my University's MMA club. That particular instructor was a student who had a bunch of BJJ experience. So, for all you traditional people, it's not like I told the mystic old Chinese man to f off or anything. I know that would offend everyone here. I also probably would have gotten hit with a chi blast if I had done that.Who cares what style the teacher was that you disrespected? A boxing coach demands no less respect and attention than a Sifu. The fact is, you disrespected the instructor in front of others, and that ain't cool.

You seem to have an awful big bone up your @ss about TMA. I suggest you pull it out. It might interfere with your cycle.


So, now that that's out of the way, I still think that calisthenics in class are stupid. So how much endurance training do you do outside of class, again? Oh yeah....right.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Vash


"Martial arts class is not the place to learn to do a jumping jack, a pushup, or a dirty dog. It's the place to learn martial arts. If you disagree, you're a neo-Traditionalist, chi-blasting-out-yer-@$$, frog-thumping, unable-to-properly-structure-a-class-so-it-lasts-the-full-period mothertrucker."

And, for the record (just to draw the heat off of the physiology-knowledgeable IF and FP), I am firmly against culture retention in the martial arts when the classes are conducted by a non-native who is outside of the native land. Or something.

What about sport arts? Thier conditioning is directly related to what they do. Is it unnecessary for them?

However, once I get all nice and certified to be a personal trainer (yay ISSA!) bet that I'm going to question the wisdom of using calisthenics at the beginning of a fine-motor-skill-requiring lesson when those calisthenics can tire the muscles out enough to impair the ability to perform said technical movements. Or something. I dunno. I'll get back to you in September.

to warm up the body. you are raising the body's internal temp, protecting against muscle injury associated with intensely working a "cold" muscle.

As for being too tired to perform a technical movement, I think you may have stumbled on something....too tired...can't use strength...must be technical...

[Vash]

I didn't mean that the conditioning is not important for *groan*TMA*/groan* (I hate that term). Conditioning should be paramount in training. I feel, though, that it would be better to train the machine apart from training the programming.

For warm ups: in retrospect, the idea of not having warmups in class is dangerous. I must have been about to go off on a tangent from my tangent. Or something.

As for the exercise adversly affecting technique: even after a set of 10 pushups, it's forseeable that motions which require forward and lateral adjustments would be executed in a more gross manner than a muscle which was merely warmed up.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
So how much endurance training do you do outside of class, again? Oh yeah....right.

Exactly. The condition I am in is my own fault and when I get winded while rolling or boxing in class it's my fault.

^ I have started to do some cardio on my own, tho.

Now let me reitterate what is ok and what is not ok:

OK - getting tired by rolling or boxing for rounds in class. This tires you out, gets you in shape, and lets you train the moves all at once. Additionally, because of SAID (specific adaptation to imposed demands), it improves your fighting strength and ability.

Not OK - being forced to do (more than a few) pushups, hindu squats, or any other form of calisthenic on it's own.

Not OK - lifting weights in class :eek:

I have an especially big problem with beginners being forced to do tons of calisthenics BEFORE class. Some people might be in such bad shape that they'd be practically unable to move and therefore learn techniques after doing the warmups that some classes have. So wtf would be the purpose, then? I know the people who want to be hardcore will reply, "well if they're not even in good enough shape to do the warmup, then they have no business learning the techniques." Good job, you sound like an elitist snob. If your reply is that, don't bother saying it then. That's like telling a new weight lifter "well if you can't even warm up with 135 on the bench, you have no business lifting weights at all." :rolleyes:

Let me say, also, since it's hard sometimes to convey tone over text, that I don't have the attitude of a hardass or an ego-filled ass. Sorry if it came out that way.

btw this thread is awesome :D

[Vash]

Originally posted by IronFist


Exactly. The condition I am in is my own fault and when I get winded while rolling or boxing in class it's my fault.

^ I have started to do some cardio on my own, tho.

Now let me reitterate what is ok and what is not ok:

OK - getting tired by rolling or boxing for rounds in class. This tires you out, gets you in shape, and lets you train the moves all at once. Additionally, because of SAID (specific adaptation to imposed demands), it improves your fighting strength and ability.

Not OK - being forced to do (more than a few) pushups, hindu squats, or any other form of calisthenic on it's own.

Not OK - lifting weights in class :eek:

I have an especially big problem with beginners being forced to do tons of calisthenics BEFORE class. Some people might be in such bad shape that they'd be practically unable to move and therefore learn techniques after doing the warmups that some classes have. So wtf would be the purpose, then? I know the people who want to be hardcore will reply, "well if they're not even in good enough shape to do the warmup, then they have no business learning the techniques." Good job, you sound like an elitist snob. If your reply is that, don't bother saying it then. That's like telling a new weight lifter "well if you can't even warm up with 135 on the bench, you have no business lifting weights at all." :rolleyes:

Let me say, also, since it's hard sometimes to convey tone over text, that I don't have the attitude of a hardass or an ego-filled ass. Sorry if it came out that way.

btw this thread is awesome :D

Ironfist has taken the correct and forced it to do dirty dogs 'til it marked it's territory. Then he choked it out.

[IronFist]

:D

That's the second time I've heard "dirty dogs" mentioned in this thread. What exercise is that?

[Vash]

Yeah, it felt like the bad dirty dogs had been brought up before . . .

Sit down on your hands and knees. Raise your leg out to the side, keeping your knee bent. Like a dog watching a Bill Mahr. Return.

[blooming lotus]

Ironfist, dude, what teacher (besides out at shaolin where they do 300 of this, 3000 of that) legitimately gets students to do that much calli wk??? I think more than 50...100 total max push ups etc is kinda excessive for warm up, but if it was on the plan, and I wanted to study or train there, I'd be pumping along with the rest of them

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by IronFist
[B] OK - getting tired by rolling or boxing for rounds in class. This tires you out, gets you in shape, and lets you train the moves all at once. Additionally, because of SAID (specific adaptation to imposed demands), it improves your fighting strength and ability. So boxers skipping rope and doing speed rounds on a bag is bad???? Only boxing in the ring is a suitable exercise for you?


I have an especially big problem with beginners being forced to do tons of calisthenics BEFORE class. Some people might be in such bad shape that they'd be practically unable to move and therefore learn techniques after doing the warmups that some classes have. So wtf would be the purpose, then? You shouldn't be so tired you can't move. But performing while experiencing fatigue is directly related to combat.


I know the people who want to be hardcore will reply, "well if they're not even in good enough shape to do the warmup, then they have no business learning the techniques." Good job, you sound like an elitist snob. Kinda like telling someone you don't have to listen to them because you know more about power lifting than 99.99% of all TMA instructors.... :rolleyes:

At any rate, that's not my answer. 90% of the people that walk into a TMA class are out of shape, so out of shape in fact that they can't peform the BASIC techniques without falling over or gasping after a few seconds. So, what do you do? Tell them to come back when they can touch their toes and kick high without falling, or use part of the class to get them in shape to use the techniques properly?

[IronFist]

BL said:

Ironfist, dude, what teacher (besides out at shaolin where they do 300 of this, 3000 of that) legitimately gets students to do that much calli wk??? I think more than 50...100 total max push ups etc is kinda excessive for warm up, but if it was on the plan, and I wanted to study or train there, I'd be pumping along with the rest of them

Did I say 50 or 100? I don't remember. "A lot" is relative. 10 pushups might tire out a new student, and 50 might tire out someone else.

MasterKiller said:

So boxers skipping rope and doing speed rounds on a bag is bad???? Only boxing in the ring is a suitable exercise for you?

Well, I was about to say "touche," buuuuuttttt... skipping rope and doing rounds on the speed bag are still somewhat akin to actually boxing. In other words, jumping rope is more similar to boxing than doing pushups is to martial arts.


You shouldn't be so tired you can't move. But performing while experiencing fatigue is directly related to combat.

I agree that you shouldn't be so tired you can't move. But that is the flaw of schools saying "we're going to do x number of pushups." As I said above, a lot is relative. X might be easy to do for one person and hard for another. By forcing a student to do a preset amount, you are running the risk of student A being too tired to learn anything else, and student B at the same time being warmed up and ready to go. See my point?

Performing while experience fatigue is directly related to combat, I agree. But not for beginners. You need to learn to do the movement while fresh and full of energy before you start doing it while exhausted.


At any rate, that's not my answer. 90% of the people that walk into a TMA class are out of shape, so out of shape in fact that they can't peform the BASIC techniques without falling over or gasping after a few seconds. So, what do you do? Tell them to come back when they can touch their toes and kick high without falling, or use part of the class to get them in shape to use the techniques properly?

You don't tell them to come back when they are in better shape, but you also don't work them so hard that they can't really learn the techniques or perform after the "warmups" either.

[BlueTravesty]

I personally enjoy doing the conditioning excercises during class. Mostly because it's really all the time I have for doing them (besides Sundays and sometimes Saturdays.) But that's just me.

[Gangsterfist]

I just got back from class and sundays we work out before class. We played my favorite game, it pays to be a winner. That is where everyone does 10 push ups and the first to finish is done. Then they do 10 more except the person who finished last round. Today only about 10 people were in class so someone had to do 100 push ups and someone had to do 10. Personally I finished third so I only had to do thirty total, but for my benefit I did the full 100. Also, this boosts the morale of the people who cannot do the pushups as fast as I can, and I like to encourage my kung fu brothers and sisters in positive manners. I did not feel too tired to participate in class, infact my sifu said my chi sao had gotten a lot better. This is because I am used to working out before class. It really is for your benefit, whether you agree with it or not.

just my $0.02

[IronFist]

^ encouraging people to exercise faster is a recipe for injury.

[Gangsterfist]

Not to exercise faster.

The idea behind the exercise is to even the strength of the group. Again, its just push ups and sifu never makes you go any further than you can. If doing 50 tires you out to the point where if you do more you can't train, then he only suggests do 50.

However, over time you should have the ability to do 100 and still participate in class. There is no such thing as instant kung fu, so it will take a while to reach that level. I can do 200 crunches with out stopping, but it took me a while to build up to it.

Learning the kung fu is the most important, the exercise is for your benefit not the kung fu's.

[Vash]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
everyone does 10 push ups and the first to finish is done. Then they do 10 more except the person who finished last round.


Originally Posted by Ironfist
encouraging people to exercise faster is a recipe for injury.


Originally posted by Gangsterfist
Not to exercise faster.

The first to finish 10 pushups wins. If you win, you're done. If you don't, you continue. Sounds like encouraging increased rep speed to me.

Ironfist is right. Encouraging that type of exercise mentality (which that type of game undeniably does) increases the participants' risk of injury.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by IronFist
Well, I was about to say "touche," buuuuuttttt... skipping rope and doing rounds on the speed bag are still somewhat akin to actually boxing. In other words, jumping rope is more similar to boxing than doing pushups is to martial arts.When did this become about push-ups? You said there should be absolutely no calisthenics. We don't do any strength training in class (except beginners doing stances, but that's a whole other issue), but we do wind-sprints and other cardio related exercises, which are directly related to combat performace.

I do agree that making people do X amount is wrong. People should perform to the extent of their ability, which is different for everyone.


I agree that you shouldn't be so tired you can't move. But that is the flaw of schools saying "we're going to do x number of pushups." As I said above, a lot is relative. X might be easy to do for one person and hard for another. I agree. But they won't get any better or stronger by not trying, either.


By forcing a student to do a preset amount, you are running the risk of student A being too tired to learn anything else, and student B at the same time being warmed up and ready to go. See my point?Sure. But after a given amount of classes, student A will should gain enough strength/endurance to keep up. The student will progress, which is the point, afterall.


Performing while experience fatigue is directly related to combat, I agree. But not for beginners. You need to learn to do the movement while fresh and full of energy before you start doing it while exhausted.Beginners shouldn't be worried about combat, anyway. You don't stick someone in the ring until they have a few skills under their belt. Otherwise, they just flail without purpose. That's my point of view, anyway.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

cant believe i didnt see this earlier... gotta put in my two cents.

first off, the push ups. at kung fu we do about 50 press ups and 50 crunches as part of our warm up routine, which I would hardly call excessive. and even then we usually let the beginners take a break half way through if they arent up to it. in muay thai our instructor is big on press ups and crunches- we do 3 minute rounds of padwork (for a regular training session, can be different sometimes for instance if we are sparring) then 20 crunches+10 press ups, 3 minutes of work, 20 crunches+10 press ups, so on and so forth. then at the end we do about 200 crunches and 100 press ups. each class lasts for about 2.5-3 hours. it is a VERY intensive class, and if you can't take the heat, you leave.

this might sound snobbish but I get **** tired of fat little kids who come to kung fu so they can brag about it, do no work at home, and expect to get somewhere. they tend to get caught out when it comes time to grade at higher levels, and to pass you have to do a certain number of press ups, crunches, and run 3km before you even start the test. these kind of people waste everybodys time.

so for press ups, crunches, conditioning, it depends on the teacher. I do 100 press ups and 200 crunches every night, but I still appreciate the workout I get from muay thai. kung fu is more sedate- we learn a technique and practice it over and over, we take breaks, we do grappling and throws, we often have people come in and give us lessons such as boxers and judoka. so I learn more mentally from kung fu, but I gain more physically from muay thai.


now, as for the "respect" deal- if our instructor is doing something wrong, I call him on it (although this is a very rare occurence). and when I am teaching I make it very clear that if I do something wrong, for the student to call me on it as well. even teachers are there to learn, and by not questioning techniques you are doing both you and your teacher a disservice.

finally, if people arent working out at home, they should **** off. neither of my instructors pretend they can make you a fighter without you doing your homework. you should either go al the way or not at all, half arsed doesnt cut it in my opinion.

[IronFist]

What's a "press up?" I hear that mentioned all the time. Is it just another name for a pushup?

[Pork Chop]

Not to be obnoxious but i'm having a hard time understanding what the whole beef is.


If you don't think calisthenics have any applicability or carry over to fighting, I would beg to differ.


Pushups work your shoulders, tris, chest, and abs (as a stabilizer).

Punching power may not come strictly from these areas, but these areas do tire when throwing a ton of punches.

There are different ways of doing pushups too.

Doing them on your knuckles helps the stabilizer muscles in your wrists become stronger & have more endurance, so the chance of injuring yourself while punching decreases.

Doing explosive plyometric pushups is good for speed and explosiveness.


Squats are the same way; and probably even more important considering punches come from the ground up.

With squats, not only are you increasing the power of the punch, but you are improving footwork.

Good footwork can win a fight before a punch is ever thrown.


I could point out similar benefits of squat thrusts, mountain climbers, and even crunches.


When a fighter tires, technique gets sloppy.
These calisthenics are a good way to achieve a level of muscular fatigue before working on the skills; in addition to increasing the thresh holds for strength, speed, and endurance.
Strength, speed, explosive power, and endurance are all factors in fighting.


If it's the split you don't like I can understand that, it's probably a more valid argument. Basing the workout around the round timer makes more sense than sheer # of reps, especially when you're trying to last a round of a certain length of time before a rest.

If you're not training for a specific round length, then it probably doesn't make as much sense.


If it's the sheer fact that someone's making you do a workout instead of stressing pure technique; then it sounds like you're looking more for private lessons on how to do something rather than specific training to be good at it.

In boxing, this is why you can arrange time with a trainer, and why they rarely have "class" type workouts.

I've heard of quite a few cases in kung fu of people subsisting only on private lessons and personal training instead of the "class" environment.

Personally I like the "class" environment because it has some of the benefits of having a private trainer (ie doing stuff you otherwise probably wouldn't or wouldn't be able to) without some of the draw backs (more people can train at the same time under the same coach).

The "class" environment might not be ideal for devotees of other physical disciplines who are just doing the martial arts as a side project; but they are a good way of creating a basic level of fitness among hobbyists who aren't really doing anything else.


FYI- Yah a pressup = a pushup

[Gangsterfist]

Kung fu translates to: Skill derived from hard work, or hard work.

There is no such thing as instant kung fu. If you are unable to do the exercises now, in time you will be able to do them. Unless you have activities that are so counter-productive that it totally makes them useless.

[Vash]

BMore Banga:

I don't think the issue is so much the applicability of attribute training to martial skill, but how attribute training while in the class environment can 1)interfere with initial grasping of a technique, and 2)interfere with outside attribute training.

I've not really had a problem with the first since I was in a decent level of fitness before I started martial arts. I've experienced problems with the latter, though, as I tend to have to put my lifts the day previous to class. Thankfully, my head instructor doesn't do a whole lot of calesthenics beyond the general warmup.

[Pork Chop]

Vash

I think I get it a bit better.
I do have a similar problem, if i lift before training, my training greatly suffers.

For me, the priority is on training, so I rearrange my lifting schedule to be able to accomodate both.

If you're priority is on the lifting instead of the training; I don't think I disagree with Ford's solution of half-azzing it through the stuff or only doing that which you are comfortable doing.

I think it's a matter of not voluntarily killing yourself for a workout that's not your main priority. I doubt anyone would really ask you to do more than you were able to do; overdoing it is how injuries happen.. And my suggestion would be to start very slowly with the class workout, holding back until you can build up to doing both without significant hampering to your other routine.

[blooming lotus]

that's a really fair statement all round ;) cheers :D